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+ Show Spoiler +I think everyone should get one thing straight.
MC dominating July says more about July than force fields.
Remember last game? July finally outlasted and whittled down the sentry ball but what happened when his roach/hydra army came knocking? MC destroyed that with blink micro.
So then, what if July hadn't died to blink stalkers? We won't know until the next time that they face off.
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On March 19 2011 18:56 wonderwall wrote:Show nested quote +
^ how much micro does holding down F and clicking your mouse in a circle take?
Doing forcefield micro like a pro such as mc or huk is difficult and requires skill. If you don't consider this true then try emulating what they are doing. It's the same as Marineking splitting his marines to negate banelings. He makes it work through his own skill as a player.
I beg to differ, casting forcefields is NOT difficult and is in no way similar to marine king splitting marines.
Forcefield is definitely a very powerful spell but there are ways to negate it. Blizzard addressed some of the concerns by making massive units break them, but i say why stop at that? EMP should break it as well as fungals, maybe even storms. I think this idea would be incredibly effective and would require more dynamic play.
Other than using abilities and size of units to stop forcefield, there are tons of ways that i think you could get around it. Burrow move is a known work around for zerg, terran can use medivacs to pick up units trapped around FF and carry them out, but im not sure how plausible this is.
I have a cool idea though:
What about even making FF's have life so that you can attack it and 'break' the forcefield?
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Early game blocking forcefields like that is a problem. I really like the idea of giving forcefields health, though. Would that not completely solve this?
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On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro.
The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late.
Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard..
Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones.
He got outplayed.
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On March 19 2011 18:56 wonderwall wrote:Show nested quote +
^ how much micro does holding down F and clicking your mouse in a circle take?
Doing forcefield micro like a pro such as mc or huk is difficult and requires skill. If you don't consider this true then try emulating what they are doing. It's the same as Marineking splitting his marines to negate banelings. He makes it work through his own skill as a player.
While I agree it probably takes more skills than imagined to do perfect force fields, I would say a big difference is that if you miss your force fields, you just have worse positioned force fields which still are in the way of your opponent and do some of their duties and you still have a army vs armu situation. If you mismicro your marines, they are dead.
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On March 19 2011 19:07 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:05 Dommk wrote:On March 19 2011 19:03 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Dommk wrote:On March 19 2011 18:53 RiceRiceRice wrote:
^ how much micro does holding down F and clicking your mouse in a circle take?
or rather, how much micro do you need with you have 15+ FF available, and all you have to do is click in the middle of a ramp? Try do it as well as MC does as quick as he does it. So absurd that people just try down play it like this. How many people other than MC do you see force fielding like that? Other than MC, NO one, no one as actually used Force Field that well in any type of tournament, not even SanZenith or HuK when they did a 6gate push. The thing is that, as other players get better, soon everyone (well, every pro) will have the same forcefield "skill". Sure, right now MC is "the best" Protoss but that doesn't mean you can't say that abilities such as force fields are game breaking. Then if more and more people get better and better at force fields then the more and more that Zerg will have to get burrow and tunneling claws faster. Julys burrow in every game was super late, regular 5gate 2base all-ins hit before that, and you need to have burrow researching to stop them, if they are done well Again, how would burrow help him game 1? July had enough units to actually defend but simply couldn't get down his ramp to do so. No amount of ability would save him that game because MC could literally forcefield July's ramp as long as he wanted. Sure, once you've got tunelling claw you can micro vs forcefields with roaches. But you can't micro with any other unit vs forcefields still, and until you have burrow AND burrow movement you still can't micro against forcefields with roaches.
I do agree that blocking the small ramps with one forcefield is quite strong, as we saw today. I think a suitable fix would to give them health so that one forcefield isn't able to hold back 50 food worth of army just because it's at a ramp.
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Again, how would burrow help him game 1? July had enough units to actually defend but simply couldn't get down his ramp to do so. No amount of ability would save him that game because MC could literally forcefield July's ramp as long as he wanted.
He was completely faked that game, when he found out about the rush it was too late. I admit it did look a bit too strong, but really, that is like Zerg faking a macro game only to all-in with toss not having enough sentries to hold, In those kinds of situations the game is lost before the engagement even happens
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Wider Chokes. Simple really. Protoss would need to wall off with buildings still but probably need the sentries to FF to defend. Would take a lot more FF to block a zergs ramp, and you couldn't indefinably keep them there like game 1 showed.
Ofc if you get doughnutted in open field then that's your own fault.
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On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed.
July's response was perfectly fine. It was just that due to the nature of eggs having to be at a hatchery, he couldn't reinforce at all due to forcefields. Meanwhile, MC easily reinforced due to do the nature of warpgate being able to warp in at any pylon. Had July not been blocked, I dare say he would have been able to hold that off.
They approached the engagement with similar armies. They both reinforced, but July's were blocked.
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On March 19 2011 18:56 wonderwall wrote:Show nested quote +
^ how much micro does holding down F and clicking your mouse in a circle take?
Doing forcefield micro like a pro such as mc or huk is difficult and requires skill. If you don't consider this true then try emulating what they are doing. It's the same as Marineking splitting his marines to negate banelings. He makes it work through his own skill as a player.
The problem is, no matter how much skill his opponent has, there is no reliable response to it. You either (hopefully) scout the heavy sentry composition and somehow figure out a way to position your army in a way that minimizes the forcefield's effectiveness, which is extremely map dependent and could backfire horribly, or you make a unit composition that is not destroyed by forcefield (not a viable option that early in the game). The person being forcefielded has to rely on his opponent making a mistake to be given a scenario where his skill at the game can be rewarded. At MC's level, the drawbacks of paying 100 gas for the sentry and forgoing other units are nothing compared to the near-guaranteed win it gives him.
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On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed.
He got outraced.
You can be all fanyboy you want about MC's AMAZING STRATEGY but, at the end of the day, if Terran or Zerg tried to do some sort of shenanigans like that then July would have still been able to defend because he would have had units in time.
The only reason July couldn't defend is not because he didn't have the right amount of units, not because he played bad, not because MC played well, not because July over droned or any other reasons that involved "skill". The only reason July lost is because he literally couldn't get down the ramp to defend. July made units at the perfect time; they came out exactly as the attack actually started. However, because of forcefields, it didn't matter.
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On March 19 2011 19:12 Ksi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 18:56 wonderwall wrote:
^ how much micro does holding down F and clicking your mouse in a circle take?
Doing forcefield micro like a pro such as mc or huk is difficult and requires skill. If you don't consider this true then try emulating what they are doing. It's the same as Marineking splitting his marines to negate banelings. He makes it work through his own skill as a player. The problem is, no matter how much skill his opponent has, there is no reliable response to it. You either (hopefully) scout the heavy sentry composition and somehow figure out a way to position your army in a way that minimizes the forcefield's effectiveness, which is extremely map dependent and could backfire horribly, or you make a unit composition that is not destroyed by forcefield (not a viable option that early in the game). The person being forcefielded has to rely on his opponent making a mistake to be given a scenario where his skill at the game can be rewarded. At MC's level, the drawbacks of paying 100 gas for the sentry and forgoing other units are nothing compared to the near-guaranteed win it gives him.
That is not true at all. Against someone like MC who can play well, the game will have to change, but right now, it is only MC that is up there.
You had a thread recently in the strategy section where a Zerg was using dual prong baneling drops to completely counter 3gate expanding protoss. It was later found out the only way to stop it was to cannon up and make a TON of Stalkers, how often do you see that? The potential is there, but until more people are at MC's level we will never know what is possible and what isn't.
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to anyone who says FF is imbalance.. I have a simple challenge for you.
Try to play Protoss at Masters WITHOUT using one forcefield.. I dare you. See how badly forcefield is required.
And even if you do use it, 99.9999% chance you will get no where near as good as forcefields as MC.. He is the best in the world, point blank. Watch every other "pro" Protoss player, they dont win every game simply by going mass sentries.. If it was that easy, every protoss would be winning every single game like nothing. Forcefield "placing" is a large talent, trust me.. I have over 2000 protoss games so far, and I still land shitty forcefields once in awhile. It really is an art, and put it this way; you miss one forcefield vs terran, its gg.
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Fungal Growth has too much influence? What zerg unit are you going to outmicro any of the other races with? Against fungal part of having good micro is spreading out your units so that small aoe abilities aren't that effective, or just emping/feedbacking the infestor. That's part of micro.
Concussive shells don't really prevent micro because even if it didn't exist Marauders could stim instead and catch nearly every ground unit with the exception of blink stalkers. Your argument is about the combination of marauder micro with stim and dropships and doesn't really have anything to do with the power of concussive shell. If Protoss is being stupid and gets caught out in the open early game vs. concussive shell marauders that's a mistake he should be punished for. Again, your complaint is about the combination of terran bio upgrades, not concussive shell alone.
Forcefields on the other hand require little effort to place correctly and are nearly unavoidable, especially in situations where protoss is pressuring. They at the very least need a cooldown between uses per sentry, which allows protoss to prevent early all ins but have at least a few less forcefields in mid-late game. Although Terran EMPs nullify them, viably teching to ghosts is usually far down the line and Protoss can apply ridiculous pressure with forcefields VERY early in the game. Zerg has no answer with the exception of burrowed roaches which aren't really an 'answer' at all, merely a lifeline.
Change topic to Forcefields - Good or Bad? and you'd have a thread, albeit one that's about a cliche topic.
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Forcefields on the other hand require little effort to place correctly and are nearly unavoidable,
Well, this thread isn't going to get anywhere. I'm out, have fun anyone trying to debate this.
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Many of the major abilities in BW initiated micro contests, for example:
1. Dark swarm initiated a contest of the Zerg attacking vs. the Terran rushing to get out
2. Irradiate initiated a contest of the Zerg trying to split his units vs. the Terran trying to hit as many units with Irradiate as possible
3. Stasis, while in theory very much like FFs, was used against Terran, who had SVs, and could therefore initiate a contest of landing EMP vs. Protoss landing Stasis
Banelings have the same characteristic in SC 2. They initiate micro contests between Terran marines/tanks vs. baneling groups.
Do FFs? Well, against hydras and zerglings on the ground, no, they don't. FFs against hydras and zerglings are just flat-out counters. You can never really micro your hydras sufficiently to escape FFs. Zerglings flanking from multiple directions is a possibility, especially while baiting, but it still seems like a Protoss can always catch a bunch of them if he doesn't panic.
Against roaches, however, FFs DO initiate a contest of micro IF the roaches have burrowed movement and burrow. The Protoss FFs, Zerg burrows and moves either towards or away from the army. The level of micro required isn't really significant right now but I can see it being a contest. Perhaps more can be done with the burrow movement mechanic to make it more exciting, though.
The same is true of overlords with drop. FFs DO initiate a contest of micro there, as well, as you can easily follow your army around with a bunch of speed overlords and pick up and drop off as necessary to escape or bypass force fields. This kind of tactic is underused, in my opinion, though it is also true that it hits a little too late most games to stop the initial FF push.
Against Terran, it really comes down to ghost usage, and currently Terran just don't feel like using them early game even when they see mass sentries. There is also the possibility of medivac micro though here it is more risky because Terran medivacs are more expensive as well. All in all though, EMP vs. Sentries do initiate a contest of micro or at least positioning and so I don't feel like we're seeing the potential for micro here just yet.
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On March 19 2011 19:17 Skyze wrote:
to anyone who says FF is imbalance.. I have a simple challenge for you.
Try to play Protoss at Masters WITHOUT using one forcefield.. I dare you. See how badly forcefield is required.
And even if you do use it, 99.9999% chance you will get no where near as good as forcefields as MC.. He is the best in the world, point blank. Watch every other "pro" Protoss player, they dont win every game simply by going mass sentries.. If it was that easy, every protoss would be winning every single game like nothing. Forcefield "placing" is a large talent, trust me.. I have over 2000 protoss games so far, and I still land shitty forcefields once in awhile. It really is an art, and put it this way; you miss one forcefield vs terran, its gg.
No one's talking about removing forcefields. We're talking about balancing them so that, as an opponent, you can actually micro against forcefields. Right now if a Protoss uses FFs right you literally cannot micro against them and that is, literally, game breaking. You can modify forcefields so that they're still effective but able to be negated.
Just because MC is the only Protoss in the world who can do good forcefields (a point I completely disagree with but going to ignore) then what happens in the future when every Protoss has the same level of ability? The ability is completely broken from a gameplay point of view; it completely negates micro when done right.
You can't just say "forcefields are fine because MC is the only one who can use them well" because, eventually, everyone will be able to do that level of forcefielding consistently and then what are you going to say?
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On March 19 2011 19:12 Gingerninja wrote:
Wider Chokes. Simple really. Protoss would need to wall off with buildings still but probably need the sentries to FF to defend. Would take a lot more FF to block a zergs ramp, and you couldn't indefinably keep them there like game 1 showed.
Ofc if you get doughnutted in open field then that's your own fault.
If you mean by wider chokes, the chokes that lead up to your base, you'd permanently see roach all ins and bio all ins because it would take more than 1 force field to seal off the choke and protoss wouldn't be able to defend that.
The problem lies deeper with FF. FF is so strong, as is warpgate-tech, that gateway units are in a head to head fight cost for cost worse than their terran and zerg counterparts. Zealots and Stalkers are balanced around FF and Warpgate, resulting in them being shitty. Furthermore Protoss thus needs these super-lol units like colossi and HTs.
If gateway units were greatly buffed, FF a researchable ability at Cybernetics Core and Warpgate tech moved to twilight council - I'd be happy. No more praying for those Colossi to come out in time before the bio ball hits and no more zerg qq because of imba FF.
The same thing kinda goes for concussive. Imho it is worse than FF cuz it is passive and it makes hit and run and thus harassing impossible. However terran is not as reliant on it as P is with FF.
I am okay with Fungal though. It is hard to use, Infestors are quite a big investment and you normally don't get as many as P gets sentries.
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On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed.
Yup. Funny to see people atribute a win / loss to a in game ability but they forget all the rest that lead up to it. It's like MC getting carriers / voids, July doing nothing, and then at the end losing to them. I come here and bitch about how OP voids and carriers are. Kinda makes you wonder the leagues of the players that are commenting.
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Force fields imba? shells stopping your units? fungle locking you down?!
Choose your locations to engage to limit the effect of them and use your own abilities. it works both ways.
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EPT
