Abilities that nullify micro - Good or bad? - Page 25

On March 26 2011 09:23 Barca wrote:
Yeah MC doesn't think Protoss needs to tech up to kill Zerg either
-_-

On March 26 2011 01:39 Aequos wrote:
In a kind of funny twist, stimmed marauders (even 3 of them, which is about cost efficient) can beat an immortal. Likewise, 3 marauders will beat 2 stalkers (same price as immortals) and can beat 4 zealots with some kiting. They also can beat Colossi that have no backup cost efficiently.

I'm not arguing they're op, I've also beaten mostly marauder compositions as Protoss with good forcefields.

On the point you made about making marines - you always want marines as Terran, even if there are some Colossi on the field. Protoss also have to choose between Immortals and Colossi, as they both build out of the same building.

With forcefields, I'd argue that they require baiting to deal with, as otherwise they build up. Having 1 forcefield block your ramp for 30 seconds is a much smaller deal than 1 for 2 minutes as your expo dies.

The best change to FF imo is to lessen the SICK range of 9 to something like 5-6. Ramps would still be easy to protect, but abusing it vs an army would require you to put the sentries in a more risky position. That way the opponent by microing well might be able to focus them down, making it a micro-war.

On March 28 2011 17:23 FighterHayabusa wrote:
http://justin.tv/fighterhayabusa/b/282477778


To all those stating this isn't easy...it is. I don't even play toss, but I am quite good at FPS. I have absolutely zero practice doing this, and I can walk through with ease. If I did it better I have no doubt I'd lose no units.

I think the biggest issue here is that FF can actually compress units into a space that they couldn't occupy otherwise.

I think this problem really shows when you see how angry people become when they see forcefields dominate a game. People should be amazed when they see something used well, but instead they are getting pissed off, so much in fact that mods are now having to routinely monitor tournament threads so balance whining doesn't get out of hand. And interestingly enough, the balance whines are almost always about the following things: forcefields, marauders (concussive shells), colossi, warp-in, void rays. Pretty much anything that is extremely powerful while also being easy to use and hard to counter. I'm sure race bias is a factor, but to me it's a symptom of a greater problem with this game.

On March 28 2011 22:59 Grezzz wrote:
It can definately be argued that a good player should avoid getting into a bad position, and that would be my opinion too, but it seems kindof wrong to me that one mistake can be game over. Similarly with fungal, it feels so abusive when I fungal a big patch of marines and watch them explode, but the difference is that fungal comes so late into the game that even if I hit a perfect fungal, it doesn't end the game, it just puts me ahead.

On March 28 2011 23:16 freetgy wrote:


Well it is the same for Protoss the otherway around, one mistake (misplaced,timed) Forcefield and it is Game over. No Protoss would complain a FF Nerf if Gateway Units wouldn't suck so much.

On March 28 2011 23:30 Grezzz wrote:The problem is, how would you change forcefield? It looks like such a hard skill to balance. How can you nerf forcefield without destroying protoss' early game? How can you buff gateway units without making them totally dominant? There are already a few examples of gateway units being used effectively without mass forcefields, would these strategies become too powerful?

On March 28 2011 22:43 Spawkuring wrote:


Agreed. I also think that people really overstate how much skill it takes to use FF. Yea, it takes skill, but not that much.

In all honesty I feel that FF is problematic due to how unstoppable it is when a person casts proper forcefields. When a person botches their FFs, then it's possible to respond or move away, but when the FFs are properly cast then it's literally impossible to do anything about it. The only real way to counter FFs is just to get the proper counter unit, which are burrow roaches, EMP, and massive units. The problem with this of course is that any protoss player with half a brain knows to push early before any of those things are available, which is one of the many reasons 4/6 gate is so powerful.

To be perfectly honest though, I just find forcefields to be bad for e-sports. BW was entertaining because it had units/spells that felt overpowered but could be countered with proper micro. That doesn't happen with FFs because they are completely dependent on the person casting it, and not how the opponent responds. You can't "respond" to FFs: either they trap your units or they don't. The only way to respond is to pray that your opponent screws up, or to get the counter unit, but getting forced to build the counter unit only encourages the rock-paper-scissors feel in SC2. In BW, we constantly see units win against their supposed counter by having good micro (infantry vs. lurkers for example). I can almost guarantee you that will never happen with say, non-burrow roaches vs. forcefields simply because of how FFs nullify micro.

I think this problem really shows when you see how angry people become when they see forcefields dominate a game. People should be amazed when they see something used well, but instead they are getting pissed off, so much in fact that mods are now having to routinely monitor tournament threads so balance whining doesn't get out of hand. And interestingly enough, the balance whines are almost always about the following things: forcefields, marauders (concussive shells), colossi, warp-in, void rays. Pretty much anything that is extremely powerful while also being easy to use and hard to counter. I'm sure race bias is a factor, but to me it's a symptom of a greater problem with this game.