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rofl this thread is rich. seems to me like 40% theorycrafters, 50% people that are mad that they got ff'd, and 9% people that just want the game to be dumbed down more and more. (EDIT: FORGOT MY 1% BROTOSS) How about everyone just tries to get together and figure out how to get around it. Everyone mad because protoss has developed the most as a race in the past 2-3 GSL seasons cause they were forced to. Now, instead of attempting to further terran or zerg or w/e, its just a big QQ fest everywhere. I understand zerg is relatively UP right now, but come on, don't sit around and cry about it. Just play the damn game. Also,
On March 20 2011 13:43 carbon_based wrote:
people should consider the maps that the GSL is played on, all of them HEAVILY favor protoss there's a reason they aren't on the ladder. 3 expansions and only one tiny choke point???? OK THX. there's a reason they widened paths on temple and removed shakuras, protoss fast expansion is too freaking good and most of the GSL maps let protoss fast expand for free. people were invariably going to QQ but seriously MC could have won with carrier/mothership if he wanted to because giving protoss 4-6 free geysers early on means they will win.
this game is designed by idiots and the whole problem is terran bio. why are force fields so strong and cheap? because toss needs tons of them placed perfectly just to stop a herp derp 3 rax. if terran bio weren't so damn strong there wouldn't be a need for huuuuuuuuuuge maps just for zerg to survive a freaking marine scv push, and guess what u suddenly balanced tvz and pvz is a huge mess now. gj blizz. the core terran units being glaringly overpowered is what is throwing this game into a horrible balance spiral and the fools at bliz's inability to realize it is starting to get on my nerves.
I 100% agree with this.
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More importantly, if you have a hotkey full of, let's say, high templars and you have them all selected and you storm a location, only one HT storms, instead of all of them storming. This reduces the necessary micro for all units with similar abilities, thus lowering the skill required to use these powerful spells and makes spamming them way too easy, which can be led to them seeming overpowered. Now THIS needs to be fixed.
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July did not get hydra range upgrade in that Shakuras game, thats why he got raped in the midfield.
As a Terran I never had problems with FF because I mech every TvP game. Guess zerg is going to need some playstyle innovations.
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i seriously think the main problem is zerg scouting in early game, crawlers pretty much own sentries but if your overlord / lings don't get the needed info on time you are pretty much screwed, for a reactionary race we are given little to no time to react. Simply put zerg options at beginning are limiting and you need to plan ahead to react to attacks. Getting Lair + burrow + roach movement + tunneling claws is not something you can just do on the spot, takes time, same as getting mutalisks out or drops (which are only 3 options that really counter FF in any non 4-gate scenario).
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On March 21 2011 11:21 Terranium wrote:
July did not get hydra range upgrade in that Shakuras game, thats why he got raped in the midfield.
As a Terran I never had problems with FF because I mech every TvP game. Guess zerg is going to need some playstyle innovations.
Getting thors are relatively easy for terrans, getting ultras on the other hard, is very difficult for zerg. Since mutas get owned by stalkers, its difficult for zerg to counter the tosses forcefields without massive units
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I believe that if sentries attack range as well as it's range at which it casts a force-field are decreased, the balance would still be preserved.
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Uh... there are plenty of counters to all those items. If u didn't build/research any and your army is weak to it, what did you expect? forcefields have lots of weaknesses... like AIR, blink, burrow, massive units, long range units, drops, and your own counter spells.
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Does spells like fungal really nullify micro? Simply spreading your units when you're up against infestors will make fungal a lot less effective.
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Bit of a Starcraft nub question: but doesn't Brood War have a LOT of abilities which negate micro?
Anyway, I don't think people are viewing "micro" in the right way. Forcefields don't "nulify" micro, they nulify retreating or advancing past the forcefield.
Pretty sure micro isn't just the ability to have all your attacking units on one hotkey, and then trying to retreat whilst half your units cannot and thus spend the better duration of a forcefield trying to get away as opposed to attacking or doing something more useful whilst stuck.
I find fungals "nulify" micro more, because then you are totally unable to move. Forcefields mainly useful in high numbers. As far as I've seen, Terrans learned to out-micro banelings over time, perhaps we'll see players react to the increased skill cap of Forcefield usage by increasing the skill cap of their ability to avoid forcefields.
Don't think it needs a nerf, I just think Zerg needs Hydra buffs. I know that's very specific, but sometimes the best way to balance is to, rather than nerfing the offender, buff appropriate "response" to said counter.
My 2 cents. Starcraft nub though, take it with a grain of salt.
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United States7483 Posts
Forcefield negates micro once it's cast and on the field. Using a forcefield requires a sentry with energy, which is an investment from protoss in a weak fighting unit, a very expensive investment (100 gas on a unit that does terrible dps). You can micro and position to try to deal with forcefields BEFORE they are down, which most people forget. Your opponent has sentries? Don't fight in small areas. Bait the forcefields by splitting small groups up and being very careful to hug the range of the sentries. EMP those sentries: your micro with the ghost just countered the forcefields.
Yeah, once the fields are out, they're set. Try preventing the situations though. Sometimes, the best tactic to beat an enemy tactic is to stop them from utilizing it, not power through it after they're done.
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Obviously a crucial part of 'micro' is unit positioning BEFORE spells go off.
A simple example, but a lot of Protoss players would bitch that Zealot/Stalker couldn't win against Concussive Shells in the early game, because they'd position their units wrongly. However, if you properly screen the Stalker(s) with the Zealots, you can use 1 Gateway against 1 Rax + Tech Lab without a problem and without a ramp.
Of course, if you a-move and THEN try to rearrange your units AFTER the battle has begun, the Marauders will tag your Stalker and kill it before your Zealots can properly punish them.
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On March 21 2011 12:57 Whitewing wrote:
Forcefield negates micro once it's cast and on the field. Using a forcefield requires a sentry with energy, which is an investment from protoss in a weak fighting unit, a very expensive investment (100 gas on a unit that does terrible dps). You can micro and position to try to deal with forcefields BEFORE they are down, which most people forget. Your opponent has sentries? Don't fight in small areas. Bait the forcefields by splitting small groups up and being very careful to hug the range of the sentries. EMP those sentries: your micro with the ghost just countered the forcefields.
Yeah, once the fields are out, they're set. Try preventing the situations though. Sometimes, the best tactic to beat an enemy tactic is to stop them from utilizing it, not power through it after they're done.
July engaged in the middle of Shakuras and MC still had enough sentries and forcefields to forcefield his way out of that situation.
Have to admit MC's forcefields were amazing but your advice on "engage in a better position" doesn't really help when July was beat with forcefields (he would have won the fight if the forcefields weren't perfect) in one of the most wide open areas in the whole map pool.
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Here's my herpderp advice:
If everyone is concerned about mass forcefields being overpowered, why dont they add a function into the game so that for every X sentries, each forcefield lasts N seconds less.
But in all honesty, the 3-rax comment above is actually correct. Without FF, it is so hard to stop marauder spam early game as toss.
I admit that the forcefield block in game one of MC vs July was a bit unfair, but you can also credit for faking him out and showing up with a LOT more units than he thought would be coming at that point, which means by the time they popped at that point, MC would have blocked the ramp.
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On March 21 2011 22:00 ct2299 wrote:
Here's my herpderp advice:
If everyone is concerned about mass forcefields being overpowered, why dont they add a function into the game so that for every X sentries, each forcefield lasts N seconds less.
But in all honesty, the 3-rax comment above is actually correct. Without FF, it is so hard to stop marauder spam early game as toss.
I admit that the forcefield block in game one of MC vs July was a bit unfair, but you can also credit for faking him out and showing up with a LOT more units than he thought would be coming at that point, which means by the time they popped at that point, MC would have blocked the ramp.
Rather than that, which is complicated. (If you played WoW PVP you should be familar with this term) Have Diminishing Returns for Forcefields lol. Every Sentry can only have 4 forcefields up at any given time. (With Max EN) First FF is 15s 2nd will last shorter and one after that will last even shorter until Xseconds has passed. But that'll suck for the protoss player... having to keep track of all that shit timing >.<
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lol i thought this was going to be about the new fungal growth. can't move and take damage, not counting the units that just swarmed around you. storm at least takes time and can be dodged.
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I think that nullifying micro is bad because micro was good in SC1, so i think it's good in SC2.
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I think forcefields should be destructable... how much HP or what armor class are they? I don't know, but I feel like if they are destructable, they still have the strength they should, without being "overpowered"
Another idea someone else mentioned, lower the cast range, so the sentries have to put themselves in peril in order to cast the FF.
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On March 21 2011 12:50 bittman wrote:
Bit of a Starcraft nub question: but doesn't Brood War have a LOT of abilities which negate micro?
the only main one that comes to mind is stasis freeze, but units frozen become invincible. there's also lockdown but thats per unit. ensnare slows down units. you can use lurker egg to block ramp.
these are just the ones i remember atm. i think the game could be more exciting if it was the same, very limited micro nullifying stuff.
edit: maelstrom! just remembered
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For Brood War, there was also lockdown from ghosts, and queens had ensnare. However, both of these abilities weren't used very often, because lockdown was very hard to use without autocasting, and queens were rarely used at all.
That being said, it was very exciting to see them when they were used in pro matchups (i.e. boxer's gosu lockdowns vs carriers).
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don't forget maelstorm from dark archons
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EPT
