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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:49 ashaman771 wrote: Chess is not a sport. It's a difficult and great game, but not any more a sport than monopoly. Chess is a recognized sport of the International Olympic Committee. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess | ||
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fush
Canada563 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:47 ashaman771 wrote: Yes. Physical demand is part of sport. Yes. Because of the physical demand of sport, you put yourself in harms way. Yes there are professional darts and billiards players who make a living at it. No need to make SC2, Halo, Quake more than they are, great video games. seems like word-play to me. frankly who cares if people argue "esports" isn't really a "sport" because it doesn't involve physical activity as much as traditional sports? i'd think that if we just called it "professional starcraft competition" instead, it'd end this pointless discussion. what's the merit in having sc2 or any other "esport" being declared a "sport"? does being a "sport" give anything more legitimacy than non-sports? probably not. and to add, those who argue that aspiring to be professionals in traditional sport is "good" for health, i'd argue otherwise. sure, partaking in EXERCISE is good for health, but if you're going pro, there's the generalization that you need about 10000 hours of training to get to an "elite" level. this in essence involves repetitive joint and muscle movements that will all but guarantee arthritis and other physiological problems... or as the poster i've quoted puts it ... "putting themselves in harms way". is that really much "better" for your health than playing video games and exercising on off time? hmmm... i wonder. | ||
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ashaman771
Canada114 Posts
Not athletes or people who play video games. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:46 NotSupporting wrote: eSports does not give you any benefits? What about excitement, entertainment something to spend time watching, something to follow. Are you incapable of seeing beyond the physical part of sports? It's like saying that following your favorite football team gives you nothing, unless your making money from it. You arguments does not make any sense whatsoever. And regarding post count, you have written a thousand posts in a community forum that is centered around eSport but you can't see any good things regarding it, you must be lost. Well, excitement and entertainement of course I agree, but are those benefits? I mean, what will you have after you spent all those years gaming? I played d2 for like 8 years and what now? It was just an entertainment but I didn't get anything good from that at all apart from pleasure. If I would spend that time in sport I would be stronger, if I would spent that time learning something I would be more intelligent, if I would spent that time communicating with my friends I would have better social skills. And I like eSports and I like wasting time on gaming, but that does not mean it has much benefits. Btw I also think playing SC (strategy games ) has more benefits that playing something like d2 or wow, so it depends. | ||
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fush
Canada563 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:57 ashaman771 wrote: I hope future generations idolize people who make a real difference in society, people making life changing discoveries, people saving lives, people making positive changes in humanity. Not athletes or people who play video games. this i agree with. | ||
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Liquid_Adun
Canada205 Posts
GG? | ||
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ScootZilla
United States37 Posts
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports. It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc. Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport. I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey. This is actually the real reason as to why eSports aren't "Sports", but it is so not because of being effectively true, but because society considers this statements to be true. Physical effort is only a part of sports because society has had this notion for like, forever. Take Russia for example, where chess has been a sport for many many years, supported by the government etc. I'm pretty sure many people there wouldn't doubt calling chess a real sport, but it is a concept socially inserted into people for many years. I think sport is defined by competition, not by physical strain, but that's just me. I also believe mental stress can be much harder to take in than physical, studying, playing SC, training chess for hours or whatever other metally taxing activity you can think of are ridiculously hard to achieve, it just can't be seen in a concrete form like physical training is, which means people cannot associate it with a good model. Compare this to mental activities, particularly gaming, which has been associated for 2 decades (approximately the birth of the activity), with being overweight, being a "nerd", being ignored by the girls, staying in "mom's basement" for a living, amongst other heavy stereotypes. Sports are made by society, not by the activity, I'd say that given the insanely fast evolution of this trend (20 years approx is a very short time), it will soon start to be considered a good activity and some stereotypes will start to fall, specially if we have players like WhiteRa, married, mature guy. We had Drayich in DotA, married with children, etc. I'd say some 10 more years before society starts taking the scene actually seriously like in korea, because to reach that high you also need investors willing to put their money on the scene, which will come naturally some day. | ||
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ashaman771
Canada114 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:56 fush wrote: seems like word-play to me. frankly who cares if people argue "esports" isn't really a "sport" because it doesn't involve physical activity as much as traditional sports? i'd think that if we just called it "professional starcraft competition" instead, it'd end this pointless discussion. what's the merit in having sc2 or any other "esport" being declared a "sport"? does being a "sport" give anything more legitimacy than non-sports? probably not. Video games certainly are competition there's no doubt about it. And they're certainly fun and intense. For sure, what this thread is about is the definition of sport. Competition isn't sport. Sport is competition plus physical exertion. | ||
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kilolo
Sweden150 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports. It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc. Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport. I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey. I'm an ex amateur muaythai fighter who follows MMA religiously and I don't agree with you at all. Being in the gym or in the ring/mat is never "hard" it's fun that's why you do it. It's tiring (for your muscles) yes and you get an endorfin and adrenalin boost, that's why it's fun. You say it's easier to sit in front of a screen playing SC for 5 hours. That's only your personal opinion. Myself I can relax more going to the gym then playing SC, it can be very stressful. For me in a way it's a lot easier just hitting the gym and punching the bag then focusing hard for a long time. | ||
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gotlucky
United States60 Posts
sport -an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc. dictionary.com athletic -physically active and strong; good at athletics or sports -of or pertaining to athletes; involving the use of physical skills or capabilities, as strength, agility, or stamina dictionary.com game -a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators. dictionary.com Clearly there is some overlap between sports and games, and games can be played competitively. But they are not the same. Starcraft falls under game. It involves skill, chance, and endurance. Starcraft does not involve physical skills, strength, or agility. APM is dexterity, not even agility. I think esports is a great name for competive online gaming because it conveys the seriousness of competitive gaming without breaking down the meaning of athletics and sports. | ||
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ProtossGirl
England123 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:57 ashaman771 wrote: I hope future generations idolize people who make a real difference in society, people making life changing discoveries, people saving lives, people making positive changes in humanity. Not athletes or people who play video games. X-ray Factor | ||
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sammler
United Kingdom381 Posts
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fush
Canada563 Posts
On December 15 2010 06:00 Liquid_Adun wrote: Id like to point out that chess is considered a sport. So let me challenge you this. What is the difference between playing chess on the computer (esport) vs re life sport. As far as fame and fortune go, try and think about a couple of your favorite chess pros. In terms of health. what is the diffence between someone who plays chess for 12 hrs a day vs someone who plays sc2 for 12 hours a day. GG? it's funny, i wonder when the IOC had such power as to designate what's a sport and what's not and have it be the bottom line. you know i could have sworn that stuff like rock climbing isn't a "sport" in the olympics... not so GG i'm afraid. | ||
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:58 Alpina wrote: Well, excitement and entertainement of course I agree, but are those benefits? I mean, what will you have after you spent all those years gaming? I played d2 for like 8 years and what now? It was just an entertainment but I didn't get anything good from that at all apart from pleasure. If I would spend that time in sport I would be stronger, if I would spent that time learning something I would be more intelligent, if I would spent that time communicating with my friends I would have better social skills. And I like eSports and I like wasting time on gaming, but that does not mean it has much benefits. Btw I also think playing SC (strategy games ) has more benefits that playing something like d2 or wow, so it depends. It has been argued and investigated before that games training accelerates the mind's ability to make quick decisions, and this is coming from very small research in a field really not studied, whereas the effect of sports ahve been extensively studied, not only because it is good for humanity but also because it brings in tons of money. Plus mental improvement effects of activities are harder to study than physical improvements. | ||
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:41 Alpina wrote: What this have to do with what I wrote? Your question does not make any sense. Your amount of posts implying you're an active member. The site of which you're active on happens to be an eSport supportive site which has its own team with members that travels around the world competing in huge eSport events such as GSL and MLG. On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports. It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc. Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport. I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey. Im not a professional starcraft player. But I disagree. The amount of practise and dedication required is in my opinion extremely large for both physical and mentally demanding sports. Man, sometimes I wish we had Day[9] here on the regular forums to argue with some of the non-believers  | ||
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McDonalds
Liechtenstein2244 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:54 Talin wrote: Chess is a recognized sport of the International Olympic Committee. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess That's because the only thing that the IOC takes into account when considering the inclusion of a "sport" is the existence of a strong international governing body. There are plenty of actual sports that aren't included in the olympics and it is because their support bases are largely concentrated in small regions and/or they don't have big organizations behind them. | ||
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dutpotd
Canada49 Posts
On December 15 2010 04:49 eveo wrote: 1) What discredits eSports in relation to physical sports? 2) Why are people so quick to discredit eSports, such as parents? 3) Why don't parents and teacher alike invest as much time into starcraft as well as real sports? 4) Was just thinking because anytime I mention to my parents anything remotely related to starcraft and gaming they frown. But if I mention I'm going to soccer practice it's okay. Really, what's the difference? You ask a lot of questions, and I'm not really sure I even like the term 'eSports' when defining competitive gaming via an electronic medium. At the same time I don't like the term 'sport' being applied to what I consider to be 'athletic competitions', see golf, track and field, swimming, etc. I understand the benefits of labeling what we do with Starcraft and other competitive games as a 'sport', but I've always considered that misleading, and likely detrimental to the credibility of competitive gaming in the long run. To answer your questions though: 1. Sports are more socially acceptable at this point in time, that is not to say competitive gaming will not reach this level of social awareness and acceptance, just that it hasn't yet due to accessibility issues closely tied to technology. There is a more visible/recognizable social aspect to sports when you compare it to the communication/community involved with competitive gaming. Competitive gaming is harder to understand as a casual observer, online games, or games in general, usually have more complicated rules that sporting equivalents and are therefore 'less' spectator friendly. Everyone has kicked a ball or can conceptualize the talent/ability required to kick a ball, not everyone has achieved a decent level of APM on a keyboard or microed 2+ control groups of units nor can they easily conceive the talent/ability involved with doing so. 2. Related to my answer to #1, parents want what is best for their children. Oftentimes what a parent percieves as being 'best' neglects to take into to account the immediate enjoyment of the child, as well as intangible mental growth and well being. A competitive gaming experience does not necessarily result in a visible or tangible benefit to the well being of a child the same way that physical fitness does. Similarily, it is usually more difficult for a parent to grasp the social aspect of an online game and compare it to the, again visble, social aspect of a sport. Add to this the socially acceptable nature of sports, see fame and fortune, and parents are likely seeing sport as a positive thing relative to the long term success of their children in the 'real' world, not necessarily noting that the 'real' world is changing to match growth in the areas of technology and thefore communication, and at an alarming rate. 3. I think the answer to this is obvious from my first two answers. Namely, perception is everything, and public perception often drives what parents and teachers do as it is more rigorously well tested/safe, albeit possibly not optimized for new trends and discoveries relative to technology. Some parents, usually the ones that are involved with or that understand the benefits of social online gaming first hand, do understand that what we are coining as an eSport is a new and viable way to cultivate skills that are becoming more and more important in a changing world. 4. Again, the difference comes from a lack of understanding and the long understood benefits of sports vs. the new and still to be discovered benefits of online gaming, both competitively and casually. The answer I'd give any parent regarding eSports or gaming in general is that 'everything in moderation' is the optimal way to raise a child. The better your child understands what different groups of people do and by participation, jocks vs. gamers vs. ??? (others), for fun and developmental growth - the better they will be able to enter adulthood with a well-rounded set of skills and aptitudes, ready to perform and continue to adapt to new trends, attitudes, and environments that their adult life might throw at them. | ||
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ashaman771
Canada114 Posts
The issue is What seperates eSports from Sports? Sports requires competition and physical exertion. Starcraft is missing physical exertion, so it's not a sport. | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
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