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On December 15 2010 06:46 mordk wrote:
Here's where I think the mistake is. Ever since chess became a "sport" (and it did, there's no question about it, since most countries and large organizations consider it a sport), the definition widened away from physical strain requirements. The term is now flexible and focuses the competitive aspect of the activity. This is because what is a sport and what isn't is defined by society as a whole, and this is what eSports are lacking right now. Once that is achieved the path will be clear.
I was not aware that chess became recognized as a sport. I thought your were talking out of your ass at first but did a quick search and apparently the International Olympic Comitee actually recognized it as such. That does indeed make everything more blurry. I think that was a mistake on the part of the IOC but since it is true than I guess now the only way for a game to fit the definition of sport is to get it recognized by the IOC....ugh...well I guess now we know where we need to do our lobying.
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I think it's the lack of physically-impressive highlights set to intense actiony music. You see football, soccer, or any olympic athlete doing something with U2 or K'naan in the background and you're like...daaaamn, I wish I could do that. They look so graceful, they look so badass.
You watch the player the moment they do something crazy in-game, and if you take away the computer, desk, and headset, and they could be taking a dump.
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On December 15 2010 06:19 Shockk wrote:
I'll assume both sports and e-sports aren't performed professionally, but as a hobby, since this will apply to the majority.
Sports creates a skill useful in real life. Yes, there may be injuries, but for most people, pursuing a sport means more fitness and less health issues. Also, unless all you do is jogging at night, you'll socialize and meet people that share your interests.
E-Sports - you don't really train any skills. Sure, you practice your hand/eye coordination, but not to a degree where you'll actually have any use from it. You don't socialize; you may meet people, but those are gone once you're offline and experience shows that real bonding only happens in rare cases (i.e. leading to real life, lasting friendships, including offline meetings). And last but not least, you waste time with Esports. Unless you're some super efficient uber-gamer, you'll probably spend a lot of time waiting, idling in menus, being in queue for something (patch download, tournament wait, you name it) - so you'll not only sit in front of your PC for hours, but you won't even advance your skills for a significant part of that time.
I don't know why this discussion comes up regularly. Computer gaming shouldn't be considered a sport because it isn't. It doesn't have any particular physical requirements. And even compared to real sports that don't either (e.g. golf, chess, darts), it lacks the special traits that make those unique (precision, logical thinking etc).
The frequent comparison of Starcraft and chess for example is ridiculous. Regardless of how impressive we think some korean 20 y/o may perform clicking a mouse and hitting some keys, it will never reach the level of strategical and logical thinking required by a chess master.
Sorry for not saying more than this, but: WHAT?
You waste time in e-Sport? well, at least for me Sport are a waste of time.. do you see how bad of an argument it is?
We don't say that Chess = Starcraft, we say that they are very alike
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One of them has thousands of years of establishment, the other has less than 20.
eSports will explode in the next 50 years. Humans are no longer as primitive as they once were and can seek competition in non-physical ways 
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the original command and conquer has much more in common with sc2 than chess.
If SC2 is a sport, then just about every video game is a sport.
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On December 15 2010 07:13 ashaman771 wrote:
the original command and conquer has much more in common with sc2 than chess.
If SC2 is a sport, then just about every video game is a sport.
So you agree that chess, not requiring physical exertion, is a sport? Quite different from your previous posts, and if you do, does that open the field for other non-physical activities, including video games (be it SC2 or any other), to become sports?
And as said before, the mental requirements of SC and chess are not comparable, the two activities are similar in that they are competitive, mentally taxing activities, of course they require a different skillset.
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On December 15 2010 06:19 Shockk wrote:
I'll assume both sports and e-sports aren't performed professionally, but as a hobby, since this will apply to the majority.
Sports creates a skill useful in real life. Yes, there may be injuries, but for most people, pursuing a sport means more fitness and less health issues. Also, unless all you do is jogging at night, you'll socialize and meet people that share your interests.
E-Sports - you don't really train any skills. Sure, you practice your hand/eye coordination, but not to a degree where you'll actually have any use from it. You don't socialize; you may meet people, but those are gone once you're offline and experience shows that real bonding only happens in rare cases (i.e. leading to real life, lasting friendships, including offline meetings). And last but not least, you waste time with Esports. Unless you're some super efficient uber-gamer, you'll probably spend a lot of time waiting, idling in menus, being in queue for something (patch download, tournament wait, you name it) - so you'll not only sit in front of your PC for hours, but you won't even advance your skills for a significant part of that time.
I don't know why this discussion comes up regularly. Computer gaming shouldn't be considered a sport because it isn't. It doesn't have any particular physical requirements. And even compared to real sports that don't either (e.g. golf, chess, darts), it lacks the special traits that make those unique (precision, logical thinking etc).
The frequent comparison of Starcraft and chess for example is ridiculous. Regardless of how impressive we think some korean 20 y/o may perform clicking a mouse and hitting some keys, it will never reach the level of strategical and logical thinking required by a chess master.
Its up to debate. The way you express your opinion about you don't really train any skills or you waste time with Esports kinda shows that you're a narrow-minded person uncapable of thinking in bigger perspectives. I could list a lot of things Esports could improve you in.
- Patience (You mention waiting for tournaments and such)
- Multitasking and quick decision making
- Logical thinking
- Leadership
- Self-Control
And several Physical sports which comes with drawbacks. (Take heavy lifting as an example)
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On December 15 2010 07:10 Fa1nT wrote:One of them has thousands of years of establishment, the other has less than 20. eSports will explode in the next 50 years. Humans are no longer as primitive as they once were and can seek competition in non-physical ways
It's the primitive nature of who we were as a species that makes sports so appealing. People no longer hunt for their food, but evolutionarily we were built for a combination of intelligence and physicality. That's why sports are so innately attractive to so many people.
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A different possible debate here is that people are implying that competitive level sports only have positive physical consequences, statement which I consider false. Many activities considered sports have bad, and I mean really bad consequences. Take for example, the proven relationship between repetitive head trauma (Boxing) and Parkinson's Disease. Or the bad cases of knee and hip arthrosis derived from running long distances for a lifetime, or some premature deaths in account of heart failure reported in soccer, and other aerobic sports activities, obviously depending on each athlete's genetics.
Of course physical activity has beneficial health effects, but let's not confuse sports with physical activity with physical training, they are both in practice and medically, very different things.
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Where do you socialize more in "sports"?
Sure - in teamsport games (football, basketball) there is more social interaction.
But what about tennis? Tabletennis? Ski jumping? Triathlon? Formula 1?
And those are "respectable" sports, right? But still you train alone / with your practice partner - just as in any esport game.
I dont see people socializing more in those sports.
And about the regrets:
You start to train when you're 14years, sacrifice your education and are about to go pro when you're ~20. And then some idiot on the field hits you in a stupid way and you're injured and cannot play that sport ever again. You just wasted 6years of your life in a normal sport.
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On December 15 2010 06:45 Boundless wrote:
It's true. If most of the people on this forum spent as much time in the gym as they do playing Starcraft (which might not be humanly possible), it would definitely benefit them. That's the main difference between esports and real sports. Things like hockey and basketball are very good for your body, making it more physically fit and releasing stress, which is a medically proven fact.
I don't think esports does the same thing. Instead of being physically active for a few hours, you're sitting down at a computer moving your hands a grand total of maybe 6 inches at a time, performing a repetitive action that can lead to carpal tunnel and other RSI's.
However, the competition aspect and the skill aspect is very similar between real sports and esports, just in a different way. Peyton Manning has got nothin on Bisu's multitasking and mental agility, but it's pretty obvious who can run further, or lift more weights.
No, what you mean is physical exercise is good, and certainly better than no physical exercise, and no one is going to argue with that. That doesn't make certain sports good, it just means they have an advantage in that they involve lots of physical exercise.
Also, I don't know why everyone uses this fallacious argument of "Oh, training for starcraft is bad for you, playing so many games and sitting down for slong you get carpal tunnel and whatnot". Okay, if I play too many starcraft games, I can get a sore wrist. If I'm practicing football with a bunch of guys and get a bad hit, I can end up dead. I don't know about you, but I consider death and lots of physical injuries, many of which can be permanently disabling, much worse than carpal tunnel syndrome. I don't know why you people consistently bring up the physical effects of playing video games but never bring up the physical effects of playing sports, particularly contact sports.
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Older people(aka. parents) just won't agree that eSports can actually BE sports. I mean, they can get excited over a 6-hour long Tennis game, but Noooo playing a video game isn't a sport at all.
I convinced my mother recently with the argument that Starcraft isn't any different from Tennis or Soccer. Sitting on a chair all day is bad for health? Yeah, because running like a dipshit for a whole day, training to the extreme of your health and nearly dieing from it is really good for your health. Like, destroying your legs and ankles like Tennis and Soccer players do is awesome for them. Everyday we heard about a Soccer player who had to go on a surgery due to a miss-run on a training where he broke his ankle or something like that.
Also, Starcraft promotes everything that Soccer and Tennis do, like sponsorship, commerce, turism, etc, except its on Korea/Sweden/US rather than Spain/Italy/Brazil.
Heck, even Swimming, which I used to practice competitively, is bad for your health. I still feel my arm joints and my neck still crackles.
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On December 15 2010 07:44 Zephirdd wrote:
Older people(aka. parents) just won't agree that eSports can actually BE sports. I mean, they can get excited over a 6-hour long Tennis game, but Noooo playing a video game isn't a sport at all.
I convinced my mother recently with the argument that Starcraft isn't any different from Tennis or Soccer. Sitting on a chair all day is bad for health? Yeah, because running like a dipshit for a whole day, training to the extreme of your health and nearly dieing from it is really good for your health. Like, destroying your legs and ankles like Tennis and Soccer players do is awesome for them. Everyday we heard about a Soccer player who had to go on a surgery due to a miss-run on a training where he broke his ankle or something like that.
Also, Starcraft promotes everything that Soccer and Tennis do, like sponsorship, commerce, turism, etc, except its on Korea/Sweden/US rather than Spain/Italy/Brazil.
Heck, even Swimming, which I used to practice competitively, is bad for your health. I still feel my arm joints and my neck still crackles.
Hahaha i got a horrible shoulder tendinitis from swimming, had to stop for like 6 months and do all kinds of upper back strengthening exercises and when I finally returned I did for like, a month and got shoulder pain all over again =(. And I was only an amateur, imagine had I practiced swimming competitively.
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eSports doesn't have the widespread interest that say... football or soccer has around the world. The general lack of knowledge and large support via TV program like ESPN or something of that nature has a lot to do with it as well
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On December 15 2010 07:19 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 07:13 ashaman771 wrote:
the original command and conquer has much more in common with sc2 than chess.
If SC2 is a sport, then just about every video game is a sport. So you agree that chess, not requiring physical exertion, is a sport? Quite different from your previous posts, and if you do, does that open the field for other non-physical activities, including video games (be it SC2 or any other), to become sports? And as said before, the mental requirements of SC and chess are not comparable, the two activities are similar in that they are competitive, mentally taxing activities, of course they require a different skillset.
There are two necessary (but not sufficient) conditions for an activity to be a sport.
-Competition
-Physical Exertion
Card games are not sport. Poker, Dominion, Magic the gathering aren't sports.
Board games aren't sport. Monopoly, Chess, Tide of Iron aren't sports.
Video games aren't sport. SC2, Halo, Quake aren't sports.
Pub games aren't sport. Pool, darts aren't sports.
Competition alone isn't sport. My friend and I trying to beat eachother on a math test isn't sport.
Physical Exertion alone isn't a sport. Me running up 50 stories of stairs isn't a sport.
Even activities that have both competition and physical exertion aren't sport. My friend and I trying to build a house fastest isn't a sport.
Sport, as well as requiring competition and physical exertion requires the added dimension of cultural acceptance of the activity as a sport.
SC2, Halo, Quake are competition. It takes skill, it takes practice, it's fun to play and watch, but a sport it is not.
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On December 15 2010 07:50 ashaman771 wrote:
Sport, as well as requiring competition and physical exertion requires the added dimension of cultural acceptance of the activity as a sport.
SC2, Halo, Quake are competition. It takes skill, it takes practice, it's fun to play and watch, but a sport it is not.
This is EXACTLY what I've been arguing the whole time. Cultural acceptance will come on its own, I agree that SC2 can't be a sport RIGHT NOW, because it lacks said cultural acceptance. However, gaming is a VERY young activity (20 years) and it already has some countries with state support behind it, it is very likely only a matter of time before western society accepts it as well.
As I have been arguing this whole thread, what is a sport and what isn't is defined by society itself, not requiring physical exertion to do so, this backed up by the fact that chess is considered widely a sport.
To put it short, it is likely (though not certain) that society will eventually consider some competitive video games as "sports", regardless of its non requirement of physical effort/exertion.
Really though, this are just opinions. Your consistent implying that chess is not a sport, regardless of society largely regarding it as such means that it is very unlikely you will ever permeate to evidence and consent, which makes this discussion rather pointless XD.
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On December 15 2010 07:50 ashaman771 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 07:19 mordk wrote:On December 15 2010 07:13 ashaman771 wrote:
the original command and conquer has much more in common with sc2 than chess.
If SC2 is a sport, then just about every video game is a sport. So you agree that chess, not requiring physical exertion, is a sport? Quite different from your previous posts, and if you do, does that open the field for other non-physical activities, including video games (be it SC2 or any other), to become sports? And as said before, the mental requirements of SC and chess are not comparable, the two activities are similar in that they are competitive, mentally taxing activities, of course they require a different skillset. There are two necessary (but not sufficient) conditions for an activity to be a sport. -Competition -Physical Exertion Card games are not sport. Poker, Dominion, Magic the gathering aren't sports. Board games aren't sport. Monopoly, Chess, Tide of Iron aren't sports. Video games aren't sport. SC2, Halo, Quake aren't sports. Pub games aren't sport. Pool, darts aren't sports. Competition alone isn't sport. My friend and I trying to beat eachother on a math test isn't sport. Physical Exertion alone isn't a sport. Me running up 50 stories of stairs isn't a sport. Even activities that have both competition and physical exertion aren't sport. My friend and I trying to build a house fastest isn't a sport. Sport, as well as requiring competition and physical exertion requires the added dimension of cultural acceptance of the activity as a sport. SC2, Halo, Quake are competition. It takes skill, it takes practice, it's fun to play and watch, but a sport it is not.
Clearly you have not read the thread....
I thought this as well buuuut.....
Look at the first message of this page.
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Sport is only a word. And if for example football, a great and exciting game but one full of scandal, hooliganism, racism, physical fighting, sexual immorality, and cheating, is an example of a sport, I'm not sure we should be aspiring to be one?
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Problem with this discussion, is that the same arguments about 'what is a real sport' is had between ANY sports codes - even in the 'traditional' sports codes.
Rugby Union players hassle Gridiron players for their use of padding and helmets and constant set pieces etc
So, I think that those people who are hating on SC2 as a sport, really just fall into the bucket of those that think their notion sport is 'proper' due to preference, using the argument of 'theres no physicalness of it' etc to satisfy their preference.
Me, I like to play physical outdoor sports, and I love SC2 - I will never be a pro in any of the pursuits, but I love competing in both.
To those that dismiss SC2 as a sport right away, they really don't know the skill ceiling that exists in it, just like I used to think AFL (aussie rules) looked incredibly stupid, until I realised it actually took skill to play properly.
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On December 15 2010 04:52 Rabbet wrote:
One builds character, the other builds a basement lurking loser who can waste away their youths and go into adulthood filled with regrets.
User was warned for this post
You say that topsport doesn't take up all your time?
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EPT
