As I was sleeping I was giving this a real thought. What discredits eSports in relation to physical sports?
Similarities: a) You train about the same amount of time in both (lets assume both players in eSports and IRL Sports are pros). b) There are teams c) There are tournaments d) There are salaries e) There is a fanbase f) There are live broadcasts
Why are people so quick to discredit eSports, such as parents? People make the exact same sacrifices for both. If my buddy is in a triple A hockey team, his school will suffer because of his dedicated to that game. If someone is in code a/s in starcraft, their school will suffer too. It's identical, except that starcraft requires no physical activity (okay fine APM counts but thats it). So why are people so quick to discredit it? Why don't parents and teacher alike invest as much time into starcraft as well as real sports?
Was just thinking because anytime I mention to my parents anything remotely related to starcraft and gaming they frown. But if I mention I'm going to soccer practice it's okay. Really, what's the difference?
EDIT: Made this thread because my parents don't take my gaming seriously. Dad was on the phone with my grandmother and was talking about what I do in my spare time and he literally described it as "he builds dingy little robots online for the majority of his time, and when he doesn't he sleeps. IM NOT EVEN TERRAN." I fucking lost it.
I think you're right that aren't really THAT many differences, (which is why they are both classified as 'sports'), but playing starcraft competitively is quite risky (or seems so for people who don't know of the starcraft scene) since no-one really knows if starcraft will get popular in the rest of the world.
Lack of knowledge. People that are of the older generation grew up with sports, so they are more legitimized in their minds. We grew up with video games, so we can see the value of them being played competitively. Chess players are actually not all that legitimized, but it's been around for a long time. Poker professionally was only recently legitimized in the grand scheme of things, billiards as well. It isn't just esports, there are plenty of "sports" that are illegitimized everyday. Compare the legitimacy of the two football leagues for instance.
On December 15 2010 04:52 Rabbet wrote: One builds character, the other builds a basement lurking loser who can waste away their youths and go into adulthood filled with regrets.
EDIT: although it is important to note sports are limited at around 2 hours at a time maximum before your body naturally makes you stop, while esports you can play a lot, and is generally less healthy obviously since its not exercise.
On December 15 2010 04:52 Rabbet wrote: One builds character, the other builds a basement lurking loser who can waste away their youths and go into adulthood filled with regrets.
omg your so cool
get lost
Well if he was intending to personify how "parents" and "adults" see it, than he nailed it on the head.
Was just thinking because anytime I mention to my parents anything remotely related to starcraft and gaming they frown. But if I mention I'm going to soccer practice it's okay. Really, what's the difference?
1) Gaming in your parents generation was looked upon differently, people of different generations generally always disagree with how they spend their time. Do you agree what your parents like to do to entertain themselves?
2) You are sitting on your ass, to your parents, thats all it looks like your doing. They aren't studying what is happening on the screen , or watching how much effort you put it.
3)
e) There is a fanbase
yes, but a laughable one compared to that of "real" sports.
Most mainstream sports are team-based games where people grow up knowing them and knowing the physical work that goes into them. People relate those activities as being "healthy" and good for the development of children.
It just has to do with our culture and the tradition of those games. They have been around for generations and have been a part of our everyday lives for generations. Parents don't know what Starcraft is. Teachers don't know what starcraft is. It's just another video game to them and they just aren't going to take the time to learn about it.
At least with mainstream sports you can play them and get scholarships or they can at least help you get into college just for being an "extra-curricular activity".
Was just thinking because anytime I mention to my parents anything remotely related to starcraft and gaming they frown. But if I mention I'm going to soccer practice it's okay. Really, what's the difference?
In football I can bet without the bookmakers having an absurd overlay, in Starcraft I can't and need to book p2p
On December 15 2010 04:52 Rabbet wrote: One builds character, the other builds a basement lurking loser who can waste away their youths and go into adulthood filled with regrets.
You're so going to get banned for that.
But on topic. The main (and obvious) reason society looks down on eSports is the stereotype and idea that playing video games is childish and will get you nowhere. You'll probably see as the current generation gets older that notion start to decline. There aren't really too many differences between the two though, just one is physical and the other is mental (could be argued otherwise, but it's either reaction time or mental).
On December 15 2010 04:53 Aberu wrote: Lack of knowledge. People that are of the older generation grew up with sports, so they are more legitimized in their minds. We grew up with video games, so we can see the value of them being played competitively. Chess players are actually not all that legitimized, but it's been around for a long time. Poker professionally was only recently legitimized in the grand scheme of things, billiards as well. It isn't just esports, there are plenty of "sports" that are illegitimized everyday. Compare the legitimacy of the two football leagues for instance.
That's what I'm thinking. I think it's because they see no sacrifices being actively made (i.e., your body) but it really takes a toll on your mental stress. They think just because it's on a screen it's automatically fun and fucking around.
parents number one concern would be health. they'd rather have you run around for 6 hours than to sit down for 6 hours.
other than that, its just naiveness. i'm sure 90% of pro-gamer's parents opposed at first, until they became aware of the community and passion of the people involved in it.
On December 15 2010 04:57 jinorazi wrote: parents number one concern would be health. they'd rather have you run around for 6 hours than to sit down for 6 hours.
other than that, its just naiveness. i'm sure 90% of pro-gamer's parents opposed at first, until they became aware of the community and passion of the people involved in it.
Assuming they got pro. There are probably so many people that spent so many hours on the game and got nowhere with it. But wouldn't that be comparable to wasting time in houseleague too? I played houseleague for, 8 years, just because I found it fun and leisure-like.
On December 15 2010 04:52 Rabbet wrote: One builds character, the other builds a basement lurking loser who can waste away their youths and go into adulthood filled with regrets.
omg your so cool
get lost
Well if he was intending to personify how "parents" and "adults" see it, than he nailed it on the head.
then he should clarify if that's what he means, his post right is just a troll post for now
There are some reasons why parents don't invest as much time in e-sports as in regular sports: 1) E-sports didn't exist when they grew up and they are unfamiliar with it. 2) Sports often have a possitive effect on your body, e-sports don't. 3) You have a chance of making a living by getting good at sports. Starcrafts professionals often earn less than they would have done by working at McDonalds. 4) Time invested in e-sports by most people greatly exceeds the time invested in regular sports. You will never see a amateur football player play 4-8h a day, but in the e-sports community this is hardly something rare.
a ball, I tried to argue with my friend that the mouse sometimes has a ball in it but he wouldn't accept it still :-/ so until the pro sc2 players can juggle and play sc2 it will convince the majority of people that its a legit sport
The thing that separates eSports from sports is an electronic interface. The reason sports are encouraged while eSports is not is because sports usually fosters productive social interaction and personal health and fitness, while eSports usually is detrimental to social interaction (because of anonymity) and to personal health and fitness.
i'm confused i didn't know that athletes trained all day though i know extremely little about sports i thought it was maybe 4 hr practice 4 hr physical training (at gym) at most during the season which is not really close to old bw pros does anyone know how much athletes from different sports train during season and off season? because i don't think it's comparable this may be complete ignorance on my part though this is all sc btw i have absolutely no idea how much people train for quake or cs
one of the arguments i hear that makes me want to pull out my hair is that you're not using your body therefore it's not a sport this bugs me so much i really think that playing sc at the top level is a lot harder then playing a sport at the top level because of the speed and endurance you need to have physically and mentally to compete, i also think that that's a ridiculous requirement for something to be called a sport.
I think that the reason people are so quick to damper on it or deny it's credibility is because of fear of the unknown everybody who actually has a clue about it regardless of if they like it or not have a hard time finding flaws in the theory that esports and sports are both equally legitimate. i say this because i have shown people and had long, long discussions with people explaining to them esports (or at least sc) these are people like my dad and friends who are not gamers but, once they know about it they see the 2 as equals. i think any person with a smigin of logic will see this once shown the light.
so i really think it's just about educating people in esports which is not an easy thing to do with everyone laughing and walking away from you because in this world it's so much easier for the simple minded to maintain their ignorance rather then be educated which is why i hate my generation.
On December 15 2010 05:08 Enervate wrote: The thing that separates eSports from sports is an electronic interface. The reason sports are encouraged while eSports is not is because sports usually fosters productive social interaction and personal health and fitness, while eSports usually is detrimental to social interaction (because of anonymity) and to personal health and fitness.
While these are broad generalizations, I'd agree they are mostly true. You can make friends playing games for sure but they are not likely to be the same kind of friendships you make by playing a team sport.
Fitness is also a big part of it. Being physically fit helps you in pretty much all aspects of your life, and is a byproduct of regular sports but not esports.
As time goes by I suspect esports will gain much more acceptance but at the same time I doubt it will ever rival real sports.
A sport is an organized, competitive, entertaining, and skillful physical activity requiring commitment, strategy, and fair play, in which a winner can be defined by objective means.
That's the definition according to Wiki. I guess it comes down to interpretation. I'm not sure I'd consider StarCraft a physical activity, even if you technically move your fingers. In my opinion though, it doesn't matter much if something can be considered a sport or not. It's just a word, and to me at least, it doesn't give any more credibility to something. Something being "a sport" according to definition isn't an automatic guarantee that it's worth spending time on and vice versa.
Playing regular sports like soccer and hockey take a very different set of skills in my opinion, although part of the mental aspects might be comparable. I'd say StarCraft might have some things in common with poker and the strategic elements of mainstream sport, but it is also different in many ways from any sport that I know of. While most people might not have a lot of respect for "someone who is really good at StarCraft", there are definitely a lot of things you can learn from it that can carry over into a lot of things in life. I actually remember reading about an investment bank that was quite fond of hiring people with competitive backgrounds in either poker or Brood War.
On December 15 2010 04:52 Rabbet wrote: One builds character, the other builds a basement lurking loser who can waste away their youths and go into adulthood filled with regrets.
omg your so cool
get lost
Well if he was intending to personify how "parents" and "adults" see it, than he nailed it on the head.
If by "parents" and "adults" you mean Luddites with technophobia and no understanding of professional gaming, and by "personify" you mean "make a terrible troll post that insults everyone for no reason and contributes nothing to the thread", then you're absolutely correct!
OT, the e stands for electronic, so typically e-sports refer to video games rather than just plain games, many of which are also not classified as sports but are played professionally.
On December 15 2010 05:10 Elevenst wrote: i'm confused i didn't know that athletes trained all day though i know extremely little about sports i thought it was maybe 4 hr practice 4 hr physical training (at gym) at most during the season which is not really close to old bw pros does anyone know how much athletes from different sports train during season and off season? because i don't think it's comparable this may be complete ignorance on my part though this is all sc btw i have absolutely no idea how much people train for quake or cs
one of the arguments i hear that makes me want to pull out my hair is that you're not using your body therefore it's not a sport this bugs me so much i really think that playing sc at the top level is a lot harder then playing a sport at the top level because of the speed and endurance you need to have physically and mentally to compete, i also think that that's a ridiculous requirement for something to be called a sport.
It's literally all day. I'm not talking about high schoolers or anything, talking about pros. The regimen for a professional boxer is crazy. Wake 5am, training till 8, sleep till 10, training again till 9/10 with meals in between. Quite intense.
On December 15 2010 05:10 Elevenst wrote: i'm confused i didn't know that athletes trained all day though i know extremely little about sports i thought it was maybe 4 hr practice 4 hr physical training (at gym) at most during the season which is not really close to old bw pros does anyone know how much athletes from different sports train during season and off season? because i don't think it's comparable this may be complete ignorance on my part though this is all sc btw i have absolutely no idea how much people train for quake or cs
one of the arguments i hear that makes me want to pull out my hair is that you're not using your body therefore it's not a sport this bugs me so much i really think that playing sc at the top level is a lot harder then playing a sport at the top level because of the speed and endurance you need to have physically and mentally to compete, i also think that that's a ridiculous requirement for something to be called a sport.
It's literally all day. I'm not talking about high schoolers or anything, talking about pros. The regimen for a professional boxer is crazy. Wake 5am, training till 8, sleep till 10, training again till 9/10 with meals in between. Quite intense.
thanks, i didn't know that so i guess boxing is quite equal how about other sports do you know those? i'm curious now.
The reason esports can't be taken seriously is because the image video games have. Games, mostly MMORPGs, have given video games this image of "sitting in your basement peeing in cups" because you are too into the game. It just has to do with how people are raised and conditioned to feel towards video games.
I think it would be awesome to have BW or SC2 on my TV, with the little ESPN logo on the bottom right corner, but I don't see that happening.
Also there are too many video games, how do you decide which becomes a sport? You can't really have a new esport every 3 years or so, it would lose its seriousness.
On December 15 2010 05:04 Batch wrote: There are some reasons why parents don't invest as much time in e-sports as in regular sports: 1) E-sports didn't exist when they grew up and they are unfamiliar with it. 2) Sports often have a possitive effect on your body, e-sports don't. 3) You have a chance of making a living by getting good at sports. Starcrafts professionals often earn less than they would have done by working at McDonalds. 4) Time invested in e-sports by most people greatly exceeds the time invested in regular sports. You will never see a amateur football player play 4-8h a day, but in the e-sports community this is hardly something rare.
Just want to point out that 4 isn't necessarily true.
Many athletes train incredible amounts to stay competitive, and unlike e-sports athletes this training also extends to other parts of life, such as their diets and exercise routines. While a SC2 player just has to make sure he plays lots of games if necessary, a, say, for example a gymnast, has to eat, train, and meticulously take care of her entire body and physical health.
The amount of training, success, and financial profit really depends more on the specific game/sport than on broad generalizations about all of e-sports and regular sports. Figure-skating, for example, is a sport that requires much more dedication than any video game possibly could.
On the bright side, both are fun. Fun to do and fun to watch.
Also, If Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg would be playing a game, it would surely be Starcraft. So, another point is that people who play Starcraft have the potential of being billionaires. Right ?
Generation isn't as much of a indicator. In my generation most of the people also don't understand esports. People just aren't used to it in general I'd say.
On December 15 2010 04:52 Rabbet wrote: One builds character, the other builds a basement lurking loser who can waste away their youths and go into adulthood filled with regrets.
User was warned for this post
I'm sure FD and NesTea are pretty regretful of their $80k.
Lots of sports are simple enough that you don't have to know all the rules to enjoy watching them. esport is more knowledge based, if you don't know what the units do for example, you'd be staring at the screen confused. So you end up with a smaller audience.
I can answer this! Sports is a physically draining activity, while e-sports is more of a mentally draining activity. Ive never heard of someone being sore from pwning newbs online.
Unfortunately, and as much as I disagree with, the general population / society still views gaming as something nerdy teenage boys do in their basement til 4AM in the morning
It's generally frowned upon, however the new rise in casual gaming popularity such as motion sensor gaming (Wii, PS move, xbox konnect etc) are changing things for the better.... sort of. I doubt anyone who views Starcraft or "proper non casual' gaming as anything but that.
Really funny to see all of these arrogant posts associating esport with geeks, nolifers and whatever shit that is being written here. What are you guys doing here to start with? -_-
This got me thinking, are esports outside of Korea going all the way when it comes to taking it seriously? There are little things that make it seem like subconsciously we esport fans still don't take it as serious as real sports.
Things like addressing the players by game names; in Korea fans and presenters use the player's real names. Outside of Korea we know big players like Greg Fields as Idra and Chris Loranger as Huk, just to name 2 examples. For us it would be "weird" to call them by their real names... but why not? It's like we're addressing a character rather than a human being.
Also, and to many this may not seem like a big deal, attire. In Korea the SC commentators have this formal attitude to presenting themselves in front of the camera. Tasteless and Artosis, however, wear casual shirts with a sports coat thrown on top as if to say, hey, we can't really take this seriously, we'd be dorky if we went full on professional.
I know those are really trivial examples I gave, but it's little things like that that kinda indicate our approach to esports. Presentation is really important yet we give this impression that we don't want esports to belong in the grown-up category along with other sports.
On December 15 2010 05:37 e4e5nf3 wrote: This got me thinking, are esports outside of Korea going all the way when it comes to taking it seriously? There are little things that make it seem like subconsciously we esport fans still don't take it as serious as real sports.
Things like addressing the players by game names; in Korea fans and presenters use the player's real names. Outside of Korea we know big players like Greg Fields as Idra and Chris Loranger as Huk, just to name 2 examples. For us it would be "weird" to call them by their real names... but why not? It's like we're addressing a character rather than a human being.
Also, and to many this may not seem like a big deal, attire. In Korea the SC commentators have this formal attitude to presenting themselves in front of the Korea. Tasteless and Artosis, however, wear casual shirts with a sports coat thrown on top as if to say, hey, we can't really take this seriously, we'd be dorky if we went full on professional.
I know those are really trivial examples I gave, but it's little things like that that kinda indicate our approach to esports. Presentation is really important yet we give this impression that we don't want esports to belong in the grown-up category along with other sports.
You have to remember that there are cultural differences between Korea and the western world and they play a part in this as well. In Korea you don't address someone by saying "you" for example and I think that is reflected by the fact that they are called by their names and not ID's just to stay formal. Same reasoning is probably behind their casters, they want to look formal on national tv (makes sense ^_^)
Some of you realize BW Pro Gaming teams do train in the gym on a regular basis...
-_-
OP there are tons of threads about this as well. A simple search would suffice. Some of you really need to learn how to use the search function and when you fail once, try it again. Seriously this isn't a place you can regurgitate diarrhea.
If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports.
It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc.
Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport.
I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey.
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports.
It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc.
Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport.
I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey.
Soooo, because Starcraft 2 is less physically demanding than football, it is not a sport?
And because Starcraft 2 players don't "put themselves in harms way," it is not a sport?
Also, there are professional darts and billiards players who make over $50,000 a year.
On December 15 2010 05:30 Kalingingsong wrote: possible factor?:
Lots of sports are simple enough that you don't have to know all the rules to enjoy watching them. esport is more knowledge based, if you don't know what the units do for example, you'd be staring at the screen confused. So you end up with a smaller audience.
It's certainly not true for me. I have no idea what's happening in football. I know a few terms, but other than knowing the quarterback is really important and that there are touchdowns, I really don't know what's happening (other than someone throwing the ball or someone running with it).
CS is pretty easy for me to follow. The rules are pretty simple: Win by killing the other team, or win by controlling the bomb site. I don't need to know which guns are better for certain situations, why someone might be saving money for the next round instead of buying a gun now, etc. I just need to know what either team's objective is.
SC is the same. Destroy all your opponent's buildings. It's certainly harder to watch than CS for a newcomer, since one would like to know what each unit and building does, but it's a wargame. Each play sends an army (or maybe just small forces) to attack the enemy.
I bet that if someone had no knowledge of the rules or ever seen either football or sc2, that person would find them equally hard to follow. Knowing the role of all the players on the field is a lot of information, just like knowing the units in sc2. But then there are also rules you have to know: how to score, penalties, why the game stops so much...but in sc2, the rules are built into the game.
On December 15 2010 05:32 IntoTheBush wrote: I can answer this! Sports is a physically draining activity, while e-sports is more of a mentally draining activity. Ive never heard of someone being sore from pwning newbs online.
I can think of many "sports" that aren't very physically demanding, example every shooting and marksmanship sport either with gun, rifle or bow and arrow.
What's the difference there? Don't tell me those aren't real sports they're in the Olympics.
On December 15 2010 05:14 eveo wrote: It's literally all day. I'm not talking about high schoolers or anything, talking about pros. The regimen for a professional boxer is crazy. Wake 5am, training till 8, sleep till 10, training again till 9/10 with meals in between. Quite intense.
It might be so for specific sports that require developing an extreme physical condition, but that is definitely not the case with sports in general. It's most certainly not the case with european football (not even near), and I'm fairly sure it's not the case with most team sports and many other popular sports. Of course, there are also quite a few actual sports that are very dangerous and far from healthy (short or long term).
SCBW professionals would train for 10 to 14 hours a day. That is nothing short of disastrous for a human being. While such training regimes do contribute greatly to the level of skill that we see and enjoy on screen as fans, IMHO it's a dark side of Starcraft progaming that nobody should be particularly proud of.
I'm hoping things will turn out a little differently for SC2 and e-sports in general and that it won't push people to such extreme limits as much.
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports.
It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc.
Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport.
I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey.
No, you are wrong, because Chess IS a sport. And maybe yes, it's more easy to sit 5 hours at the computer, but no at getting good at the game like SCII, it's not easy, that is why not everyone who play 5 hours a day of SCII is a Progamer.
And for me, everything that makes you more intelligent, is better than a sport, No, I'm not saying that sport are bad, I just prefer to think
On December 15 2010 05:03 Alpina wrote: Well eSports does not give you any benefits imo, unless you are making money from that.
People usually do sports cause it's very good for health, and eSports are bad for health.
eSports are waste of time usually, imho.
Wait...what? Can't believe you have 1000 posts on TL.net and write a post like this. How is eSports bad for your health, wtf?
What this have to do with what I wrote? Your question does not make any sense.
eSports does not give you any benefits? What about excitement, entertainment something to spend time watching, something to follow. Are you incapable of seeing beyond the physical part of sports? It's like saying that following your favorite football team gives you nothing, unless your making money from it. You arguments does not make any sense whatsoever. And regarding post count, you have written a thousand posts in a community forum that is centered around eSport but you can't see any good things regarding it, you must be lost.
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports.
It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc.
Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport.
I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey.
Soooo, because Starcraft 2 is less physically demanding than football, it is not a sport?
And because Starcraft 2 players don't "put themselves in harms way," it is not a sport?
Also, there are professional darts and billiards players who make over $50,000 a year.
Yes. Physical demand is part of sport.
Yes. Because of the physical demand of sport, you put yourself in harms way.
Yes there are professional darts and billiards players who make a living at it.
No need to make SC2, Halo, Quake more than they are, great video games.
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports.
It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc.
Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport.
I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey.
No, you are wrong, because Chess IS a sport. And maybe yes, it's more easy to sit 5 hours at the computer, but no at getting good at the game like SCII, it's not easy, that is why not everyone who play 5 hours a day of SCII is a Progamer.
And for me, everything that makes you more intelligent, is better than a sport, No, I'm not saying that sport are bad, I just prefer to think
Chess is not a sport. It's a difficult and great game, but not any more a sport than monopoly.
On December 15 2010 04:52 Bluetea wrote: eSports = electronic, on a screen usually Sports = IRL, using your body, etc.
We think the internet is real
You don't use your body when you play video games?
Edit: also, to those saying that the fanbase makes the difference when it comes to sports: Does that mean any unpopular sport is not a sport?
And yes, there are physical demands to Starcraft. Do you not think that APM is not a limiting factor for top Starcraft players? If you cannot top 200 apm you will have a hard time competing with Flash. You can't compare this to chess, because in chess as long as you can communicate you move to someone who can move it for you, you will have no problems playing. You don't need to train to move pieces in chess.
What's really important is what people are watching. That is where the money is. If such massive numbers of people didnt tune in to the super bowl, its commercial air-time would not cost millions of dollars. Because of the amount of money invested in sports and because of how embedded in our culture sports are, they are going to be a much more beneficial thing to be good at and to prosper in. (Especially from a social peer's perspective, Mom and Dad are likely to brag about their son the high school quarterback, but telling the other housewives that your son won a StarCraft 2 tournament almost means nothing)
In the future generations, hopefully children won't be idolizing sports players like Reggie Bush or Michael Jordan but rather professional eSports players who really define their style of play. If the culture turns its eyes to eSports and the future of sports broadcasting gets less popular, eSports will become more popular and prize pools will increase.
The best thing we can all do is do our best to help the community prosper and spread the knowledge of how fun eSports really are to watch. The more viewers, the more sponsors, which means more money for everyone. Support the sponsors and the community!
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports.
It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc.
Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport.
I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey.
No, you are wrong, because Chess IS a sport. And maybe yes, it's more easy to sit 5 hours at the computer, but no at getting good at the game like SCII, it's not easy, that is why not everyone who play 5 hours a day of SCII is a Progamer.
And for me, everything that makes you more intelligent, is better than a sport, No, I'm not saying that sport are bad, I just prefer to think
Chess is not a sport. It's a difficult and great game, but not any more a sport than monopoly.
Chess is a recognized sport of the International Olympic Committee.
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports.
It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc.
Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport.
I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey.
Soooo, because Starcraft 2 is less physically demanding than football, it is not a sport?
And because Starcraft 2 players don't "put themselves in harms way," it is not a sport?
Also, there are professional darts and billiards players who make over $50,000 a year.
Yes. Physical demand is part of sport.
Yes. Because of the physical demand of sport, you put yourself in harms way.
Yes there are professional darts and billiards players who make a living at it.
No need to make SC2, Halo, Quake more than they are, great video games.
seems like word-play to me. frankly who cares if people argue "esports" isn't really a "sport" because it doesn't involve physical activity as much as traditional sports? i'd think that if we just called it "professional starcraft competition" instead, it'd end this pointless discussion. what's the merit in having sc2 or any other "esport" being declared a "sport"? does being a "sport" give anything more legitimacy than non-sports? probably not.
and to add, those who argue that aspiring to be professionals in traditional sport is "good" for health, i'd argue otherwise. sure, partaking in EXERCISE is good for health, but if you're going pro, there's the generalization that you need about 10000 hours of training to get to an "elite" level. this in essence involves repetitive joint and muscle movements that will all but guarantee arthritis and other physiological problems... or as the poster i've quoted puts it ... "putting themselves in harms way". is that really much "better" for your health than playing video games and exercising on off time? hmmm... i wonder.
I hope future generations idolize people who make a real difference in society, people making life changing discoveries, people saving lives, people making positive changes in humanity.
On December 15 2010 05:03 Alpina wrote: Well eSports does not give you any benefits imo, unless you are making money from that.
People usually do sports cause it's very good for health, and eSports are bad for health.
eSports are waste of time usually, imho.
Wait...what? Can't believe you have 1000 posts on TL.net and write a post like this. How is eSports bad for your health, wtf?
What this have to do with what I wrote? Your question does not make any sense.
eSports does not give you any benefits? What about excitement, entertainment something to spend time watching, something to follow. Are you incapable of seeing beyond the physical part of sports? It's like saying that following your favorite football team gives you nothing, unless your making money from it. You arguments does not make any sense whatsoever. And regarding post count, you have written a thousand posts in a community forum that is centered around eSport but you can't see any good things regarding it, you must be lost.
Well, excitement and entertainement of course I agree, but are those benefits? I mean, what will you have after you spent all those years gaming? I played d2 for like 8 years and what now? It was just an entertainment but I didn't get anything good from that at all apart from pleasure. If I would spend that time in sport I would be stronger, if I would spent that time learning something I would be more intelligent, if I would spent that time communicating with my friends I would have better social skills.
And I like eSports and I like wasting time on gaming, but that does not mean it has much benefits.
Btw I also think playing SC (strategy games ) has more benefits that playing something like d2 or wow, so it depends.
On December 15 2010 05:57 ashaman771 wrote: I hope future generations idolize people who make a real difference in society, people making life changing discoveries, people saving lives, people making positive changes in humanity.
Id like to point out that chess is considered a sport. So let me challenge you this. What is the difference between playing chess on the computer (esport) vs re life sport. As far as fame and fortune go, try and think about a couple of your favorite chess pros. In terms of health. what is the diffence between someone who plays chess for 12 hrs a day vs someone who plays sc2 for 12 hours a day.
I see nothing wrong with it at all.Not to long ago espn had madden challenge a esports show it has come along way and still has a little bit to go,but i can only see it getting bigger right now.
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports.
It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc.
Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport.
I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey.
This is actually the real reason as to why eSports aren't "Sports", but it is so not because of being effectively true, but because society considers this statements to be true. Physical effort is only a part of sports because society has had this notion for like, forever. Take Russia for example, where chess has been a sport for many many years, supported by the government etc. I'm pretty sure many people there wouldn't doubt calling chess a real sport, but it is a concept socially inserted into people for many years.
I think sport is defined by competition, not by physical strain, but that's just me. I also believe mental stress can be much harder to take in than physical, studying, playing SC, training chess for hours or whatever other metally taxing activity you can think of are ridiculously hard to achieve, it just can't be seen in a concrete form like physical training is, which means people cannot associate it with a good model. Compare this to mental activities, particularly gaming, which has been associated for 2 decades (approximately the birth of the activity), with being overweight, being a "nerd", being ignored by the girls, staying in "mom's basement" for a living, amongst other heavy stereotypes.
Sports are made by society, not by the activity, I'd say that given the insanely fast evolution of this trend (20 years approx is a very short time), it will soon start to be considered a good activity and some stereotypes will start to fall, specially if we have players like WhiteRa, married, mature guy. We had Drayich in DotA, married with children, etc. I'd say some 10 more years before society starts taking the scene actually seriously like in korea, because to reach that high you also need investors willing to put their money on the scene, which will come naturally some day.
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports.
It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc.
Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport.
I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey.
Soooo, because Starcraft 2 is less physically demanding than football, it is not a sport?
And because Starcraft 2 players don't "put themselves in harms way," it is not a sport?
Also, there are professional darts and billiards players who make over $50,000 a year.
Yes. Physical demand is part of sport.
Yes. Because of the physical demand of sport, you put yourself in harms way.
Yes there are professional darts and billiards players who make a living at it.
No need to make SC2, Halo, Quake more than they are, great video games.
seems like word-play to me. frankly who cares if people argue "esports" isn't really a "sport" because it doesn't involve physical activity as much as traditional sports? i'd think that if we just called it "professional starcraft competition" instead, it'd end this pointless discussion. what's the merit in having sc2 or any other "esport" being declared a "sport"? does being a "sport" give anything more legitimacy than non-sports? probably not.
Video games certainly are competition there's no doubt about it. And they're certainly fun and intense.
For sure, what this thread is about is the definition of sport. Competition isn't sport. Sport is competition plus physical exertion.
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports.
It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc.
Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport.
I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey.
I'm an ex amateur muaythai fighter who follows MMA religiously and I don't agree with you at all. Being in the gym or in the ring/mat is never "hard" it's fun that's why you do it. It's tiring (for your muscles) yes and you get an endorfin and adrenalin boost, that's why it's fun.
You say it's easier to sit in front of a screen playing SC for 5 hours. That's only your personal opinion. Myself I can relax more going to the gym then playing SC, it can be very stressful. For me in a way it's a lot easier just hitting the gym and punching the bag then focusing hard for a long time.
sport -an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.
dictionary.com
athletic -physically active and strong; good at athletics or sports -of or pertaining to athletes; involving the use of physical skills or capabilities, as strength, agility, or stamina
dictionary.com
game -a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators.
dictionary.com
Clearly there is some overlap between sports and games, and games can be played competitively. But they are not the same.
Starcraft falls under game. It involves skill, chance, and endurance. Starcraft does not involve physical skills, strength, or agility. APM is dexterity, not even agility.
I think esports is a great name for competive online gaming because it conveys the seriousness of competitive gaming without breaking down the meaning of athletics and sports.
On December 15 2010 05:57 ashaman771 wrote: I hope future generations idolize people who make a real difference in society, people making life changing discoveries, people saving lives, people making positive changes in humanity.
On December 15 2010 06:00 Liquid_Adun wrote: Id like to point out that chess is considered a sport. So let me challenge you this. What is the difference between playing chess on the computer (esport) vs re life sport. As far as fame and fortune go, try and think about a couple of your favorite chess pros. In terms of health. what is the diffence between someone who plays chess for 12 hrs a day vs someone who plays sc2 for 12 hours a day.
GG?
it's funny, i wonder when the IOC had such power as to designate what's a sport and what's not and have it be the bottom line. you know i could have sworn that stuff like rock climbing isn't a "sport" in the olympics...
On December 15 2010 05:03 Alpina wrote: Well eSports does not give you any benefits imo, unless you are making money from that.
People usually do sports cause it's very good for health, and eSports are bad for health.
eSports are waste of time usually, imho.
Wait...what? Can't believe you have 1000 posts on TL.net and write a post like this. How is eSports bad for your health, wtf?
What this have to do with what I wrote? Your question does not make any sense.
eSports does not give you any benefits? What about excitement, entertainment something to spend time watching, something to follow. Are you incapable of seeing beyond the physical part of sports? It's like saying that following your favorite football team gives you nothing, unless your making money from it. You arguments does not make any sense whatsoever. And regarding post count, you have written a thousand posts in a community forum that is centered around eSport but you can't see any good things regarding it, you must be lost.
Well, excitement and entertainement of course I agree, but are those benefits? I mean, what will you have after you spent all those years gaming? I played d2 for like 8 years and what now? It was just an entertainment but I didn't get anything good from that at all apart from pleasure. If I would spend that time in sport I would be stronger, if I would spent that time learning something I would be more intelligent, if I would spent that time communicating with my friends I would have better social skills.
And I like eSports and I like wasting time on gaming, but that does not mean it has much benefits.
Btw I also think playing SC (strategy games ) has more benefits that playing something like d2 or wow, so it depends.
It has been argued and investigated before that games training accelerates the mind's ability to make quick decisions, and this is coming from very small research in a field really not studied, whereas the effect of sports ahve been extensively studied, not only because it is good for humanity but also because it brings in tons of money. Plus mental improvement effects of activities are harder to study than physical improvements.
On December 15 2010 05:03 Alpina wrote: Well eSports does not give you any benefits imo, unless you are making money from that.
People usually do sports cause it's very good for health, and eSports are bad for health.
eSports are waste of time usually, imho.
Wait...what? Can't believe you have 1000 posts on TL.net and write a post like this. How is eSports bad for your health, wtf?
What this have to do with what I wrote? Your question does not make any sense.
Your amount of posts implying you're an active member. The site of which you're active on happens to be an eSport supportive site which has its own team with members that travels around the world competing in huge eSport events such as GSL and MLG.
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports.
It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc.
Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport.
I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey.
Im not a professional starcraft player. But I disagree. The amount of practise and dedication required is in my opinion extremely large for both physical and mentally demanding sports.
Man, sometimes I wish we had Day[9] here on the regular forums to argue with some of the non-believers
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports.
It's easier to spend hours and hours on a PC, than to put the same amount of time in the gym, field, rink, mat, etc.
Put an honest 5 hours in a gym, and sit yourself down for 5 hours of starcraft. The 5 hours in the gym is much more difficult. Becoming a pro athlete is much more difficult than becoming a pro player I think. At a basic level, a pro athlete puts himself in harms way to play the sport.
I like SC2, but you're going a bit too far comparing it to MMA or football or hockey.
No, you are wrong, because Chess IS a sport. And maybe yes, it's more easy to sit 5 hours at the computer, but no at getting good at the game like SCII, it's not easy, that is why not everyone who play 5 hours a day of SCII is a Progamer.
And for me, everything that makes you more intelligent, is better than a sport, No, I'm not saying that sport are bad, I just prefer to think
Chess is not a sport. It's a difficult and great game, but not any more a sport than monopoly.
Chess is a recognized sport of the International Olympic Committee.
That's because the only thing that the IOC takes into account when considering the inclusion of a "sport" is the existence of a strong international governing body. There are plenty of actual sports that aren't included in the olympics and it is because their support bases are largely concentrated in small regions and/or they don't have big organizations behind them.
On December 15 2010 04:49 eveo wrote: 1) What discredits eSports in relation to physical sports?
2) Why are people so quick to discredit eSports, such as parents?
3) Why don't parents and teacher alike invest as much time into starcraft as well as real sports?
4) Was just thinking because anytime I mention to my parents anything remotely related to starcraft and gaming they frown. But if I mention I'm going to soccer practice it's okay. Really, what's the difference?
You ask a lot of questions, and I'm not really sure I even like the term 'eSports' when defining competitive gaming via an electronic medium. At the same time I don't like the term 'sport' being applied to what I consider to be 'athletic competitions', see golf, track and field, swimming, etc. I understand the benefits of labeling what we do with Starcraft and other competitive games as a 'sport', but I've always considered that misleading, and likely detrimental to the credibility of competitive gaming in the long run.
To answer your questions though:
1. Sports are more socially acceptable at this point in time, that is not to say competitive gaming will not reach this level of social awareness and acceptance, just that it hasn't yet due to accessibility issues closely tied to technology. There is a more visible/recognizable social aspect to sports when you compare it to the communication/community involved with competitive gaming. Competitive gaming is harder to understand as a casual observer, online games, or games in general, usually have more complicated rules that sporting equivalents and are therefore 'less' spectator friendly. Everyone has kicked a ball or can conceptualize the talent/ability required to kick a ball, not everyone has achieved a decent level of APM on a keyboard or microed 2+ control groups of units nor can they easily conceive the talent/ability involved with doing so.
2. Related to my answer to #1, parents want what is best for their children. Oftentimes what a parent percieves as being 'best' neglects to take into to account the immediate enjoyment of the child, as well as intangible mental growth and well being. A competitive gaming experience does not necessarily result in a visible or tangible benefit to the well being of a child the same way that physical fitness does. Similarily, it is usually more difficult for a parent to grasp the social aspect of an online game and compare it to the, again visble, social aspect of a sport. Add to this the socially acceptable nature of sports, see fame and fortune, and parents are likely seeing sport as a positive thing relative to the long term success of their children in the 'real' world, not necessarily noting that the 'real' world is changing to match growth in the areas of technology and thefore communication, and at an alarming rate.
3. I think the answer to this is obvious from my first two answers. Namely, perception is everything, and public perception often drives what parents and teachers do as it is more rigorously well tested/safe, albeit possibly not optimized for new trends and discoveries relative to technology. Some parents, usually the ones that are involved with or that understand the benefits of social online gaming first hand, do understand that what we are coining as an eSport is a new and viable way to cultivate skills that are becoming more and more important in a changing world.
4. Again, the difference comes from a lack of understanding and the long understood benefits of sports vs. the new and still to be discovered benefits of online gaming, both competitively and casually.
The answer I'd give any parent regarding eSports or gaming in general is that 'everything in moderation' is the optimal way to raise a child. The better your child understands what different groups of people do and by participation, jocks vs. gamers vs. ??? (others), for fun and developmental growth - the better they will be able to enter adulthood with a well-rounded set of skills and aptitudes, ready to perform and continue to adapt to new trends, attitudes, and environments that their adult life might throw at them.
E-sports are electronic? That's a pretty damn obvious difference. On top of that regular sports have a wide fanbase outside of just a small niche like SC. And regarding your similarities:
a) You train about the same amount of time in both (lets assume both players in eSports and IRL Sports are pros).
Yes, but training for sports and training for e-sports are completely different things. One is far more physically taxing on your body than the other. Anyone can technically play games all day Yes, it's difficult and 99.99% of people would be terrible but still, it's possible. Very few people can physically do what professional athletes do.
b) There are teams
SC teams don't actually compete as teams, they compete individually and train as teams.
c) There are tournaments
Scale. Sports tournaments are massive compared to e-sports tournaments. Like on a scale of millions.
d) There are salaries
Boxer has the highest SC2 salary in the world, because of his name recognition. He makes ~$250k (?). Players like IdrA probably make less than $40k. On top of that, there are probably only around 30-50 people in the world who make their living solely of SC2 tournaments. In contrast, minimum first year NFL salary for a third string player is $350k and is well into the millions by 5-10 years. And this is for a guy who never actually plays in a single game. Top players have $100m contracts.
e) There is a fanbase
The biggest SC2 tournaments like Dreamhack have around 20,000 people watching live at peak times. The biggest soccer tournaments have 500m+. Even football and basketball have into the 50m+ range.
I'll assume both sports and e-sports aren't performed professionally, but as a hobby, since this will apply to the majority.
Sports creates a skill useful in real life. Yes, there may be injuries, but for most people, pursuing a sport means more fitness and less health issues. Also, unless all you do is jogging at night, you'll socialize and meet people that share your interests.
E-Sports - you don't really train any skills. Sure, you practice your hand/eye coordination, but not to a degree where you'll actually have any use from it. You don't socialize; you may meet people, but those are gone once you're offline and experience shows that real bonding only happens in rare cases (i.e. leading to real life, lasting friendships, including offline meetings). And last but not least, you waste time with Esports. Unless you're some super efficient uber-gamer, you'll probably spend a lot of time waiting, idling in menus, being in queue for something (patch download, tournament wait, you name it) - so you'll not only sit in front of your PC for hours, but you won't even advance your skills for a significant part of that time.
I don't know why this discussion comes up regularly. Computer gaming shouldn't be considered a sport because it isn't. It doesn't have any particular physical requirements. And even compared to real sports that don't either (e.g. golf, chess, darts), it lacks the special traits that make those unique (precision, logical thinking etc).
The frequent comparison of Starcraft and chess for example is ridiculous. Regardless of how impressive we think some korean 20 y/o may perform clicking a mouse and hitting some keys, it will never reach the level of strategical and logical thinking required by a chess master.
On December 15 2010 06:13 ashaman771 wrote: The issue isn't that starcraft isn't difficult to master, or doesn't require skill. It's a difficult game that requires skill.
The issue is
What seperates eSports from Sports?
Sports requires competition and physical exertion. Starcraft is missing physical exertion, so it's not a sport.
Chess is definitely a sport, considered so by most of society and large organizations. I don't believe this is an issue. Like someone posted before me, "perception is everything", when society accepts eSports as "Sports" then they'll be sports, societies define what sports are. Ever since chess, a non-physical activity, earned a place as a valid sport because of it's competitive and demanding nature, the definition of what a sport is became rather flexible. It will take a few years but if more games like SC, halo, CS, quake, etc are made thinking in competition, then they'll eventually be considered a sport, some day.
A reason not mentioned is what if you told your parents instead of wanting to be a e-sport progamer you wanted to become a professional athelete?
Two majors differences come to mind: 1.)The chances your parents would support you are higher since its more socially acceptable, you meet friends on sports teams, socialize, etc
2.) There are other (attainable) benefits such as looking better for college applications, scholarships, etc
but in the back of their mind parents would be just as opposed to being a professional athelete as being a professional gamer since the chances at suceeding are 1 in 99999999999. As long as you kept up in school, went to college, and had a semi social life I think most parents would support someone spending 3-5 hours a day playing SC2, going to tournaments, etc. Look at Day9's mom for example.
Also, Chess is a sport, and I think is a pretty close comparison for SC2 and its scene. I think the MMA/poker analogies are much more different to SC2 than Chess is.
On December 15 2010 05:03 Alpina wrote: Well eSports does not give you any benefits imo, unless you are making money from that.
People usually do sports cause it's very good for health, and eSports are bad for health.
eSports are waste of time usually, imho.
Wait...what? Can't believe you have 1000 posts on TL.net and write a post like this. How is eSports bad for your health, wtf?
Bad because most people tend to eliminate other primary factors out of their lives when gaming such as a proper diet and exercise. How many nerds do you know that workout on a daily basis/keep a fantastic diet? I don't know many. It's usually whatever can be microwaved faster. It's unhealthy because you are far too enveloped into the game.
i think it's due to lack of knowledge people are scared of what they don't know and when parents grew up there was no such thing as "epic gaming" so to speak
thats really it, the whole bullshit about esports being for unhealthy geeks is a stereotype, its just because the ratios are so skewed that ppl dont give it a chance.
On December 15 2010 04:49 eveo wrote: What seperates eSports from Sports?
e
Sorry
--edit--
On a more serious note, I think the main difference between esports and regular sports has a lot to do with the level of interest. The reason regular sports are so popular is because, well, they are so popular. The world and his wife plays football, or tennis, or hockey, or golf. Because of this, many more people enjoy watching them on TV. Esports doesn't have that support because, relatively speaking, it's a very niche activity. There's less money in esports because there's less money to be made from it.
There's also a certain social stigma against gaming as even a hobby, let alone a full-blown profession. Who here hasn't been subject to some variant of 'stop wasting time on that bloody computer and do something useful'? It's something you don't hear if you like books or movies, but as soon as a videogame is involved it's like a switch goes off in people's heads that says 'this is not normal - it must be bad'. Thankfully, that attitude is slowly changing, and the growing popularity of events like MLG, ESL, Dreamhack, or IEM, and shows like WCG Ultimate Gamer, show that the west is starting to be a lot more accepting of gaming.
On December 15 2010 05:03 Alpina wrote: Well eSports does not give you any benefits imo, unless you are making money from that.
People usually do sports cause it's very good for health, and eSports are bad for health.
eSports are waste of time usually, imho.
Wait...what? Can't believe you have 1000 posts on TL.net and write a post like this. How is eSports bad for your health, wtf?
Bad because most people tend to eliminate other primary factors out of their lives when gaming such as a proper diet and exercise. How many nerds do you know that workout on a daily basis/keep a fantastic diet? I don't know many. It's usually whatever can be microwaved faster. It's unhealthy because you are far too enveloped into the game.
This is true but can be easily changed. This fact doesn't derive from an actual effect of the game, but because of bad teaching. Regular physical activity and proper diet are habits, and as such are to be learned from the crib onward. Both activities are perfectly compatible, you just need to be orderly and keep nice habits, however, if these haven't been taught, it can be tough to make them in an older person.
The point about excessive involvement has been scarcely studied in medical terms, but psychiatry studies have concluded that it has a rather large addictive potential, given the highly rewarding experience (get a kill, get pampered by the game, win a ladder game, get points and that oh so cute little portrait for your account, etc), plus the adrenaline rush gaming produces in some people. This combination "imprints" the conduct in the reward cycle processes in the brain, an effect similar to some drugs' one, producing a psychological dependency. Basically, parents and people themselves have to be VERY careful in deciding who plays games, as this is a biologically determined effect, and as such it is personal for each and every one of us, some people just have a more addictable nature, and this can be very harmful.
On December 15 2010 05:32 IntoTheBush wrote: I can answer this! Sports is a physically draining activity, while e-sports is more of a mentally draining activity. Ive never heard of someone being sore from pwning newbs online.
I can think of many "sports" that aren't very physically demanding, example every shooting and marksmanship sport either with gun, rifle or bow and arrow.
What's the difference there? Don't tell me those aren't real sports they're in the Olympics.
Speaking from a very limited experience, marksmanship sports actually require a lot of physical training to keep the stabilizer muscles in peak condition for accurate shooting.
I'm suprised this conversation is still going on. Even the community doesn't consider video games as sport...hence the invention and use of a different category: esports. If we really thought SC2 was a sport, we'd simply call it a sport instead of parading it as an esport.
So the difference between sports and esports is that esports...aren't sports at all. We just call them that way because we're not satisfied with the label of "game". Mario Bros is a game...Farmville is a game....So many people devote so much time and energy into SC2 and it is so competitive that it can't possibly share the same category as those lame examples. So to better represent how we feel about SC2, SF4, CS, etc we created a new category for them that reflects the spirit of competition. And what's more competitive than sports? So esports makes sense in that way.
However, as was mentionned earlier in this thread, physical activity is required for a game to fit the definition of a sport. That's just the way the word is defined. It doesn't mean SC2 is less competitive or less worthy of our time. The OP was very good at listing similarities between sports and esports that make the latter quite valid. Lack of physical activity DOES, however, exclude video games from the definition of sports. The same thing applies to poker, cards, chess which are all very competitive with high skill caps but are categorized as GAMES and not sports.
So by definition SC2 is a competitive game but not a sport. It's still ok to call it an esport since that's a poorly defined word anyway. Personnally though I think esports is inadequate and kind of a clumsy terminology.
tldr: esports are not sports...they're esports or games.
On December 15 2010 06:32 PhiliBiRD wrote: 1 is via electronic device 1 isnt?
thats really it, the whole bullshit about esports being for unhealthy geeks is a stereotype, its just because the ratios are so skewed that ppl dont give it a chance.
Well, to be fair, using a computer isn't ever healthy. Running is. That's not to say gamers are terribly unhealthy people because most of us realize gaming all day is bad for us so we take break/work out/etc., but the established athletic sports are inherently "working out" anyways so yeah...
On December 15 2010 04:52 Rabbet wrote: One builds character, the other builds a basement lurking loser who can waste away their youths and go into adulthood filled with regrets.
omg your so cool
get lost
Well if he was intending to personify how "parents" and "adults" see it, than he nailed it on the head.
It's true. If most of the people on this forum spent as much time in the gym as they do playing Starcraft (which might not be humanly possible), it would definitely benefit them. That's the main difference between esports and real sports. Things like hockey and basketball are very good for your body, making it more physically fit and releasing stress, which is a medically proven fact.
I don't think esports does the same thing. Instead of being physically active for a few hours, you're sitting down at a computer moving your hands a grand total of maybe 6 inches at a time, performing a repetitive action that can lead to carpal tunnel and other RSI's.
However, the competition aspect and the skill aspect is very similar between real sports and esports, just in a different way. Peyton Manning has got nothin on Bisu's multitasking and mental agility, but it's pretty obvious who can run further, or lift more weights.
The reason that esports isn't huge in the West right now is because the athletes are NOT marketable. I'm sorry to all the baller-craft amateurs, but I have yet to see a professional SC2 player who could go on a respectable Western TV channel, do an advertisement or an interview, and not be laughed at. The exception to this rule might be InControl or Day9, but they are far behind the professionals like IdrA and Jinro who have much more introverted personalities.
People out here look at the TV, watch Tiger Woods (who is the world's most marketable athlete), swinging a certain golf club and want that product 50x more after watching it. They wouldn't watch IdrA sitting at a computer staring blankly into the screen and say "Holy, I want that guy's keyboard!" Companies can't make money off the players, they won't put money into the players, and there you have it.
However, as was mentionned earlier in this thread, physical activity is required for a game to fit the definition of a sport. That's just the way the word is defined. It doesn't mean SC2 is less competitive or less worthy of our time. The OP was very good at listing similarities between sports and esports that make the latter quite valid. Lack of physical activity DOES, however, exclude video games from the definition of sports. The same thing applies to poker, cards, chess which are all very competitive with high skill caps but are categorized as GAMES and not sports.
So by definition SC2 is a competitive game but not a sport. It's still ok to call it an esport since that's a poorly defined word anyway. Personnally though I think esports is inadequate and kind of a clumsy terminology.
tldr: esports are not sports...they're esports or games.
Here's where I think the mistake is. Ever since chess became a "sport" (and it did, there's no question about it, since most countries and large organizations consider it a sport), the definition widened away from physical strain requirements. The term is now flexible and focuses the competitive aspect of the activity. This is because what is a sport and what isn't is defined by society as a whole, and this is what eSports are lacking right now. Once that is achieved the path will be clear.
On December 15 2010 06:13 ashaman771 wrote: The issue isn't that starcraft isn't difficult to master, or doesn't require skill. It's a difficult game that requires skill.
The issue is
What seperates eSports from Sports?
Sports requires competition and physical exertion. Starcraft is missing physical exertion, so it's not a sport.
Chess is definitely a sport, considered so by most of society and large organizations. I don't believe this is an issue. Like someone posted before me, "perception is everything", when society accepts eSports as "Sports" then they'll be sports, societies define what sports are. Ever since chess, a non-physical activity, earned a place as a valid sport because of it's competitive and demanding nature, the definition of what a sport is became rather flexible. It will take a few years but if more games like SC, halo, CS, quake, etc are made thinking in competition, then they'll eventually be considered a sport, some day.
The problem with video games is that it only takes practice to get good. A 13 year old can be as good as 225lb 25 year old that can bench 4 plates. It only takes time to be good.
On December 15 2010 05:03 Alpina wrote: Well eSports does not give you any benefits imo, unless you are making money from that.
People usually do sports cause it's very good for health, and eSports are bad for health.
eSports are waste of time usually, imho.
Wait...what? Can't believe you have 1000 posts on TL.net and write a post like this. How is eSports bad for your health, wtf?
Bad because most people tend to eliminate other primary factors out of their lives when gaming such as a proper diet and exercise. How many nerds do you know that workout on a daily basis/keep a fantastic diet? I don't know many. It's usually whatever can be microwaved faster. It's unhealthy because you are far too enveloped into the game.
But then you look at people from all walks of life and they're often overweight and leading sedentary lives. Then you look at the progaming circuit and you notice that they're almost all fit and healthy people (From the GSL I think July was the only overweight person in the booth).
The idea of a gamer as some fat, greasy, eats-nothing-but-pizza shut-in is part of the social stigma against gaming. The fact is that society as a whole is becoming increasingly unhealthy, regardless of whether the people in question are gamers or not.
Here's where I think the mistake is. Ever since chess became a "sport" (and it did, there's no question about it, since most countries and large organizations consider it a sport), the definition widened away from physical strain requirements. The term is now flexible and focuses the competitive aspect of the activity. This is because what is a sport and what isn't is defined by society as a whole, and this is what eSports are lacking right now. Once that is achieved the path will be clear.
I was not aware that chess became recognized as a sport. I thought your were talking out of your ass at first but did a quick search and apparently the International Olympic Comitee actually recognized it as such. That does indeed make everything more blurry. I think that was a mistake on the part of the IOC but since it is true than I guess now the only way for a game to fit the definition of sport is to get it recognized by the IOC....ugh...well I guess now we know where we need to do our lobying.
I think it's the lack of physically-impressive highlights set to intense actiony music. You see football, soccer, or any olympic athlete doing something with U2 or K'naan in the background and you're like...daaaamn, I wish I could do that. They look so graceful, they look so badass.
You watch the player the moment they do something crazy in-game, and if you take away the computer, desk, and headset, and they could be taking a dump.
On December 15 2010 06:19 Shockk wrote: I'll assume both sports and e-sports aren't performed professionally, but as a hobby, since this will apply to the majority.
Sports creates a skill useful in real life. Yes, there may be injuries, but for most people, pursuing a sport means more fitness and less health issues. Also, unless all you do is jogging at night, you'll socialize and meet people that share your interests.
E-Sports - you don't really train any skills. Sure, you practice your hand/eye coordination, but not to a degree where you'll actually have any use from it. You don't socialize; you may meet people, but those are gone once you're offline and experience shows that real bonding only happens in rare cases (i.e. leading to real life, lasting friendships, including offline meetings). And last but not least, you waste time with Esports. Unless you're some super efficient uber-gamer, you'll probably spend a lot of time waiting, idling in menus, being in queue for something (patch download, tournament wait, you name it) - so you'll not only sit in front of your PC for hours, but you won't even advance your skills for a significant part of that time.
I don't know why this discussion comes up regularly. Computer gaming shouldn't be considered a sport because it isn't. It doesn't have any particular physical requirements. And even compared to real sports that don't either (e.g. golf, chess, darts), it lacks the special traits that make those unique (precision, logical thinking etc).
The frequent comparison of Starcraft and chess for example is ridiculous. Regardless of how impressive we think some korean 20 y/o may perform clicking a mouse and hitting some keys, it will never reach the level of strategical and logical thinking required by a chess master.
Sorry for not saying more than this, but: WHAT?
You waste time in e-Sport? well, at least for me Sport are a waste of time.. do you see how bad of an argument it is?
We don't say that Chess = Starcraft, we say that they are very alike
On December 15 2010 07:13 ashaman771 wrote: the original command and conquer has much more in common with sc2 than chess.
If SC2 is a sport, then just about every video game is a sport.
So you agree that chess, not requiring physical exertion, is a sport? Quite different from your previous posts, and if you do, does that open the field for other non-physical activities, including video games (be it SC2 or any other), to become sports?
And as said before, the mental requirements of SC and chess are not comparable, the two activities are similar in that they are competitive, mentally taxing activities, of course they require a different skillset.
On December 15 2010 06:19 Shockk wrote: I'll assume both sports and e-sports aren't performed professionally, but as a hobby, since this will apply to the majority.
Sports creates a skill useful in real life. Yes, there may be injuries, but for most people, pursuing a sport means more fitness and less health issues. Also, unless all you do is jogging at night, you'll socialize and meet people that share your interests.
E-Sports - you don't really train any skills. Sure, you practice your hand/eye coordination, but not to a degree where you'll actually have any use from it. You don't socialize; you may meet people, but those are gone once you're offline and experience shows that real bonding only happens in rare cases (i.e. leading to real life, lasting friendships, including offline meetings). And last but not least, you waste time with Esports. Unless you're some super efficient uber-gamer, you'll probably spend a lot of time waiting, idling in menus, being in queue for something (patch download, tournament wait, you name it) - so you'll not only sit in front of your PC for hours, but you won't even advance your skills for a significant part of that time.
I don't know why this discussion comes up regularly. Computer gaming shouldn't be considered a sport because it isn't. It doesn't have any particular physical requirements. And even compared to real sports that don't either (e.g. golf, chess, darts), it lacks the special traits that make those unique (precision, logical thinking etc).
The frequent comparison of Starcraft and chess for example is ridiculous. Regardless of how impressive we think some korean 20 y/o may perform clicking a mouse and hitting some keys, it will never reach the level of strategical and logical thinking required by a chess master.
Its up to debate. The way you express your opinion about you don't really train any skills or you waste time with Esports kinda shows that you're a narrow-minded person uncapable of thinking in bigger perspectives. I could list a lot of things Esports could improve you in.
Patience (You mention waiting for tournaments and such)
Multitasking and quick decision making
Logical thinking
Leadership
Self-Control
And several Physical sports which comes with drawbacks. (Take heavy lifting as an example)
On December 15 2010 07:10 Fa1nT wrote: One of them has thousands of years of establishment, the other has less than 20.
eSports will explode in the next 50 years. Humans are no longer as primitive as they once were and can seek competition in non-physical ways
It's the primitive nature of who we were as a species that makes sports so appealing. People no longer hunt for their food, but evolutionarily we were built for a combination of intelligence and physicality. That's why sports are so innately attractive to so many people.
A different possible debate here is that people are implying that competitive level sports only have positive physical consequences, statement which I consider false. Many activities considered sports have bad, and I mean really bad consequences. Take for example, the proven relationship between repetitive head trauma (Boxing) and Parkinson's Disease. Or the bad cases of knee and hip arthrosis derived from running long distances for a lifetime, or some premature deaths in account of heart failure reported in soccer, and other aerobic sports activities, obviously depending on each athlete's genetics.
Of course physical activity has beneficial health effects, but let's not confuse sports with physical activity with physical training, they are both in practice and medically, very different things.
Where do you socialize more in "sports"? Sure - in teamsport games (football, basketball) there is more social interaction. But what about tennis? Tabletennis? Ski jumping? Triathlon? Formula 1?
And those are "respectable" sports, right? But still you train alone / with your practice partner - just as in any esport game. I dont see people socializing more in those sports.
And about the regrets: You start to train when you're 14years, sacrifice your education and are about to go pro when you're ~20. And then some idiot on the field hits you in a stupid way and you're injured and cannot play that sport ever again. You just wasted 6years of your life in a normal sport.
On December 15 2010 06:45 Boundless wrote: It's true. If most of the people on this forum spent as much time in the gym as they do playing Starcraft (which might not be humanly possible), it would definitely benefit them. That's the main difference between esports and real sports. Things like hockey and basketball are very good for your body, making it more physically fit and releasing stress, which is a medically proven fact.
I don't think esports does the same thing. Instead of being physically active for a few hours, you're sitting down at a computer moving your hands a grand total of maybe 6 inches at a time, performing a repetitive action that can lead to carpal tunnel and other RSI's.
However, the competition aspect and the skill aspect is very similar between real sports and esports, just in a different way. Peyton Manning has got nothin on Bisu's multitasking and mental agility, but it's pretty obvious who can run further, or lift more weights.
No, what you mean is physical exercise is good, and certainly better than no physical exercise, and no one is going to argue with that. That doesn't make certain sports good, it just means they have an advantage in that they involve lots of physical exercise.
Also, I don't know why everyone uses this fallacious argument of "Oh, training for starcraft is bad for you, playing so many games and sitting down for slong you get carpal tunnel and whatnot". Okay, if I play too many starcraft games, I can get a sore wrist. If I'm practicing football with a bunch of guys and get a bad hit, I can end up dead. I don't know about you, but I consider death and lots of physical injuries, many of which can be permanently disabling, much worse than carpal tunnel syndrome. I don't know why you people consistently bring up the physical effects of playing video games but never bring up the physical effects of playing sports, particularly contact sports.
Older people(aka. parents) just won't agree that eSports can actually BE sports. I mean, they can get excited over a 6-hour long Tennis game, but Noooo playing a video game isn't a sport at all.
I convinced my mother recently with the argument that Starcraft isn't any different from Tennis or Soccer. Sitting on a chair all day is bad for health? Yeah, because running like a dipshit for a whole day, training to the extreme of your health and nearly dieing from it is really good for your health. Like, destroying your legs and ankles like Tennis and Soccer players do is awesome for them. Everyday we heard about a Soccer player who had to go on a surgery due to a miss-run on a training where he broke his ankle or something like that.
Also, Starcraft promotes everything that Soccer and Tennis do, like sponsorship, commerce, turism, etc, except its on Korea/Sweden/US rather than Spain/Italy/Brazil.
Heck, even Swimming, which I used to practice competitively, is bad for your health. I still feel my arm joints and my neck still crackles.
On December 15 2010 07:44 Zephirdd wrote: Older people(aka. parents) just won't agree that eSports can actually BE sports. I mean, they can get excited over a 6-hour long Tennis game, but Noooo playing a video game isn't a sport at all.
I convinced my mother recently with the argument that Starcraft isn't any different from Tennis or Soccer. Sitting on a chair all day is bad for health? Yeah, because running like a dipshit for a whole day, training to the extreme of your health and nearly dieing from it is really good for your health. Like, destroying your legs and ankles like Tennis and Soccer players do is awesome for them. Everyday we heard about a Soccer player who had to go on a surgery due to a miss-run on a training where he broke his ankle or something like that.
Also, Starcraft promotes everything that Soccer and Tennis do, like sponsorship, commerce, turism, etc, except its on Korea/Sweden/US rather than Spain/Italy/Brazil.
Heck, even Swimming, which I used to practice competitively, is bad for your health. I still feel my arm joints and my neck still crackles.
Hahaha i got a horrible shoulder tendinitis from swimming, had to stop for like 6 months and do all kinds of upper back strengthening exercises and when I finally returned I did for like, a month and got shoulder pain all over again =(. And I was only an amateur, imagine had I practiced swimming competitively.
eSports doesn't have the widespread interest that say... football or soccer has around the world. The general lack of knowledge and large support via TV program like ESPN or something of that nature has a lot to do with it as well
On December 15 2010 07:13 ashaman771 wrote: the original command and conquer has much more in common with sc2 than chess.
If SC2 is a sport, then just about every video game is a sport.
So you agree that chess, not requiring physical exertion, is a sport? Quite different from your previous posts, and if you do, does that open the field for other non-physical activities, including video games (be it SC2 or any other), to become sports?
And as said before, the mental requirements of SC and chess are not comparable, the two activities are similar in that they are competitive, mentally taxing activities, of course they require a different skillset.
There are two necessary (but not sufficient) conditions for an activity to be a sport.
-Competition -Physical Exertion
Card games are not sport. Poker, Dominion, Magic the gathering aren't sports.
Board games aren't sport. Monopoly, Chess, Tide of Iron aren't sports.
Video games aren't sport. SC2, Halo, Quake aren't sports.
Pub games aren't sport. Pool, darts aren't sports.
Competition alone isn't sport. My friend and I trying to beat eachother on a math test isn't sport.
Physical Exertion alone isn't a sport. Me running up 50 stories of stairs isn't a sport.
Even activities that have both competition and physical exertion aren't sport. My friend and I trying to build a house fastest isn't a sport.
Sport, as well as requiring competition and physical exertion requires the added dimension of cultural acceptance of the activity as a sport.
SC2, Halo, Quake are competition. It takes skill, it takes practice, it's fun to play and watch, but a sport it is not.
Sport, as well as requiring competition and physical exertion requires the added dimension of cultural acceptance of the activity as a sport.
SC2, Halo, Quake are competition. It takes skill, it takes practice, it's fun to play and watch, but a sport it is not.
This is EXACTLY what I've been arguing the whole time. Cultural acceptance will come on its own, I agree that SC2 can't be a sport RIGHT NOW, because it lacks said cultural acceptance. However, gaming is a VERY young activity (20 years) and it already has some countries with state support behind it, it is very likely only a matter of time before western society accepts it as well.
As I have been arguing this whole thread, what is a sport and what isn't is defined by society itself, not requiring physical exertion to do so, this backed up by the fact that chess is considered widely a sport.
To put it short, it is likely (though not certain) that society will eventually consider some competitive video games as "sports", regardless of its non requirement of physical effort/exertion.
Really though, this are just opinions. Your consistent implying that chess is not a sport, regardless of society largely regarding it as such means that it is very unlikely you will ever permeate to evidence and consent, which makes this discussion rather pointless XD.
On December 15 2010 07:13 ashaman771 wrote: the original command and conquer has much more in common with sc2 than chess.
If SC2 is a sport, then just about every video game is a sport.
So you agree that chess, not requiring physical exertion, is a sport? Quite different from your previous posts, and if you do, does that open the field for other non-physical activities, including video games (be it SC2 or any other), to become sports?
And as said before, the mental requirements of SC and chess are not comparable, the two activities are similar in that they are competitive, mentally taxing activities, of course they require a different skillset.
There are two necessary (but not sufficient) conditions for an activity to be a sport.
-Competition -Physical Exertion
Card games are not sport. Poker, Dominion, Magic the gathering aren't sports.
Board games aren't sport. Monopoly, Chess, Tide of Iron aren't sports.
Video games aren't sport. SC2, Halo, Quake aren't sports.
Pub games aren't sport. Pool, darts aren't sports.
Competition alone isn't sport. My friend and I trying to beat eachother on a math test isn't sport.
Physical Exertion alone isn't a sport. Me running up 50 stories of stairs isn't a sport.
Even activities that have both competition and physical exertion aren't sport. My friend and I trying to build a house fastest isn't a sport.
Sport, as well as requiring competition and physical exertion requires the added dimension of cultural acceptance of the activity as a sport.
SC2, Halo, Quake are competition. It takes skill, it takes practice, it's fun to play and watch, but a sport it is not.
Sport is only a word. And if for example football, a great and exciting game but one full of scandal, hooliganism, racism, physical fighting, sexual immorality, and cheating, is an example of a sport, I'm not sure we should be aspiring to be one?
Problem with this discussion, is that the same arguments about 'what is a real sport' is had between ANY sports codes - even in the 'traditional' sports codes.
Rugby Union players hassle Gridiron players for their use of padding and helmets and constant set pieces etc
So, I think that those people who are hating on SC2 as a sport, really just fall into the bucket of those that think their notion sport is 'proper' due to preference, using the argument of 'theres no physicalness of it' etc to satisfy their preference.
Me, I like to play physical outdoor sports, and I love SC2 - I will never be a pro in any of the pursuits, but I love competing in both.
To those that dismiss SC2 as a sport right away, they really don't know the skill ceiling that exists in it, just like I used to think AFL (aussie rules) looked incredibly stupid, until I realised it actually took skill to play properly.
On December 15 2010 04:52 Rabbet wrote: One builds character, the other builds a basement lurking loser who can waste away their youths and go into adulthood filled with regrets.
User was warned for this post
You say that topsport doesn't take up all your time?
The reason is that playing video games builds one's mental capacity and thinking ability, and essentially the more one thinks the more one will question the authority figures installed in parents and schools. This is the primary reason that parents, schools, and governments alike are so quick to denounce video games on a whole, and eSports. The more one works their brain the more they will question the often completely insane decisions of authority figures in society and (likely what such figures fear even more) is that you will be able to prove those with lesser capacity wrong on a plethora of topics. Regular sports require a great physical aptitude, training to the point of muscle memory, and quick reaction times, but they rarely require the intense level of mental aptitude seen in eSports. The mental aspect in regular sports can sometimes reach such a level, but only for the best of the best (Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretzky - These type of players). The type of constantly demanding mental fortitude, that is seen in eSports and specifically StarCraft and that is required by any level of professional player is quite simply unequaled by any other traditional sport.
On December 15 2010 08:16 SichuanPanda wrote: The reason is that playing video games builds one's mental capacity and thinking ability, and essentially the more one thinks the more one will question the authority figures installed in parents and schools. This is the primary reason that parents, schools, and governments alike are so quick to denounce video games on a whole, and eSports. The more one works their brain the more they will question the often completely insane decisions of authority figures in society and (likely what such figures fear even more) is that you will be able to prove those with lesser capacity wrong on a plethora of topics. Regular sports require a great physical aptitude, training to the point of muscle memory, and quick reaction times, but they rarely require the intense level of mental aptitude seen in eSports. The mental aspect in regular sports can sometimes reach such a level, but only for the best of the best (Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretzky - These type of players). The type of constantly demanding mental fortitude, that is seen in eSports and specifically StarCraft and that is required by any level of professional player is quite simply unequaled by any other traditional sport.
On December 15 2010 07:13 ashaman771 wrote: the original command and conquer has much more in common with sc2 than chess.
If SC2 is a sport, then just about every video game is a sport.
So you agree that chess, not requiring physical exertion, is a sport? Quite different from your previous posts, and if you do, does that open the field for other non-physical activities, including video games (be it SC2 or any other), to become sports?
And as said before, the mental requirements of SC and chess are not comparable, the two activities are similar in that they are competitive, mentally taxing activities, of course they require a different skillset.
There are two necessary (but not sufficient) conditions for an activity to be a sport.
-Competition -Physical Exertion
Card games are not sport. Poker, Dominion, Magic the gathering aren't sports.
Board games aren't sport. Monopoly, Chess, Tide of Iron aren't sports.
Video games aren't sport. SC2, Halo, Quake aren't sports.
Pub games aren't sport. Pool, darts aren't sports.
Competition alone isn't sport. My friend and I trying to beat eachother on a math test isn't sport.
Physical Exertion alone isn't a sport. Me running up 50 stories of stairs isn't a sport.
Even activities that have both competition and physical exertion aren't sport. My friend and I trying to build a house fastest isn't a sport.
Sport, as well as requiring competition and physical exertion requires the added dimension of cultural acceptance of the activity as a sport.
SC2, Halo, Quake are competition. It takes skill, it takes practice, it's fun to play and watch, but a sport it is not.
Being a relatively high rated chess player, I have to strongly disagree with you. I've done physical sports, chess and starcraft, and by far the most demanding physically and mentally is chess. You have obviously never sat down for 2-3 hour games, three times in one day--(and in fact, the top chess players are extremely physically fit) and nor have you seen how competitive chess is at the professional level.
Due to your own inexperience, you label chess not a "sport"--I suggest you go do your research, because it fills both your initial criteria, as well as the cultural aspect. Of course, in North America there is barely any competition, but there are entire schools dedicated to chess in Russia, and chess clubs and tournaments all over Europe.
On December 15 2010 08:16 SichuanPanda wrote: The reason is that playing video games builds one's mental capacity and thinking ability, and essentially the more one thinks the more one will question the authority figures installed in parents and schools. This is the primary reason that parents, schools, and governments alike are so quick to denounce video games on a whole, and eSports. The more one works their brain the more they will question the often completely insane decisions of authority figures in society and (likely what such figures fear even more) is that you will be able to prove those with lesser capacity wrong on a plethora of topics. Regular sports require a great physical aptitude, training to the point of muscle memory, and quick reaction times, but they rarely require the intense level of mental aptitude seen in eSports. The mental aspect in regular sports can sometimes reach such a level, but only for the best of the best (Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretzky - These type of players). The type of constantly demanding mental fortitude, that is seen in eSports and specifically StarCraft and that is required by any level of professional player is quite simply unequaled by any other traditional sport.
This seems reasonable. I deem this our official response!
On December 15 2010 08:27 nK)Duke wrote: With sports, you can get laid.
Big misconception, I used to do sports and I didnt have a chance to get laid at all. Swimming just consumed too much of my time so I couldn't even get in a relationship or whatsoever.
On December 15 2010 07:13 ashaman771 wrote: the original command and conquer has much more in common with sc2 than chess.
If SC2 is a sport, then just about every video game is a sport.
So you agree that chess, not requiring physical exertion, is a sport? Quite different from your previous posts, and if you do, does that open the field for other non-physical activities, including video games (be it SC2 or any other), to become sports?
And as said before, the mental requirements of SC and chess are not comparable, the two activities are similar in that they are competitive, mentally taxing activities, of course they require a different skillset.
There are two necessary (but not sufficient) conditions for an activity to be a sport.
-Competition -Physical Exertion
Card games are not sport. Poker, Dominion, Magic the gathering aren't sports.
Board games aren't sport. Monopoly, Chess, Tide of Iron aren't sports.
Video games aren't sport. SC2, Halo, Quake aren't sports.
Pub games aren't sport. Pool, darts aren't sports.
Competition alone isn't sport. My friend and I trying to beat eachother on a math test isn't sport.
Physical Exertion alone isn't a sport. Me running up 50 stories of stairs isn't a sport.
Even activities that have both competition and physical exertion aren't sport. My friend and I trying to build a house fastest isn't a sport.
Sport, as well as requiring competition and physical exertion requires the added dimension of cultural acceptance of the activity as a sport.
SC2, Halo, Quake are competition. It takes skill, it takes practice, it's fun to play and watch, but a sport it is not.
Come on now...the insane physical aspect of being able to move that quickly and with that much precision (SC2) would qualify as physical exertion. I mean, go watch some hour long TvT's from Proleauge, and you can see the sweat, POURING off of those guys. Maintaining that much speed and precision for so long is physically draining.
On December 15 2010 07:13 ashaman771 wrote: the original command and conquer has much more in common with sc2 than chess.
If SC2 is a sport, then just about every video game is a sport.
So you agree that chess, not requiring physical exertion, is a sport? Quite different from your previous posts, and if you do, does that open the field for other non-physical activities, including video games (be it SC2 or any other), to become sports?
And as said before, the mental requirements of SC and chess are not comparable, the two activities are similar in that they are competitive, mentally taxing activities, of course they require a different skillset.
There are two necessary (but not sufficient) conditions for an activity to be a sport.
-Competition -Physical Exertion
Card games are not sport. Poker, Dominion, Magic the gathering aren't sports.
Board games aren't sport. Monopoly, Chess, Tide of Iron aren't sports.
Video games aren't sport. SC2, Halo, Quake aren't sports.
Pub games aren't sport. Pool, darts aren't sports.
Competition alone isn't sport. My friend and I trying to beat eachother on a math test isn't sport.
Physical Exertion alone isn't a sport. Me running up 50 stories of stairs isn't a sport.
Even activities that have both competition and physical exertion aren't sport. My friend and I trying to build a house fastest isn't a sport.
Sport, as well as requiring competition and physical exertion requires the added dimension of cultural acceptance of the activity as a sport.
SC2, Halo, Quake are competition. It takes skill, it takes practice, it's fun to play and watch, but a sport it is not.
Bridge officially is recognized by the IOC as sport...
The definition of what sport is is just so incredibly arbitrary that I don't think any fruitful result can come out of this discussion (hell the word origin "desport" even just means "leisure").
I think a more useful discussion would be whether and to what degree e-sports share the positive aspects of traditional sports like Cross-Cultural Communication, Fairness, mutual respect etc.
I mean I am really impressed by how positive the foreigners are being treated in Korea - Its hard to imagine a traditional sport where the majority of the audience will cheer for some foreigner instead of their own representative - in starcraft the personality and playstyle seem to matter more than the nationality while in traditional sports its moreoften other way around - I am guilty of that myself
Parents arent the only ones who dont approve of it. Go ask anyone else, not in this gaming "scene", what they think of starcraft. They will think its really lame. Its not some generational divide, its that its just kind of....lame. Dont get me wrong, I love playing, but to compare it to football is ridiculous. The amount of training required to get good at football, and to stay good at football, is completely different than either Starcraft or Chess. Comparing them is doing a disservice to the actual athletes who spent so much time training (the training is much much harder than training for video games) and destroy their bodies.
Video games are a hobby, not a sport, and calling them eSports just makes them look MORE nerdy in the eyes of the public, who think you are trying to make something traditionally nerdy sound cool (which is exactly what you are doing)
On December 15 2010 08:39 cplo wrote: Parents arent the only ones who dont approve of it. Go ask anyone else, not in this gaming "scene", what they think of starcraft. They will think its really lame. Its not some generational divide, its that its just kind of....lame. Dont get me wrong, I love playing, but to compare it to football is ridiculous. The amount of training required to get good at football, and to stay good at football, is completely different than either Starcraft or Chess. Comparing them is doing a disservice to the actual athletes who spent so much time training (the training is much much harder than training for video games) and destroy their bodies.
Video games are a hobby, not a sport, and calling them eSports just makes them look MORE nerdy in the eyes of the public, who think you are trying to make something traditionally nerdy sound cool (which is exactly what you are doing)
Same argument, society makes the sport, go ask russian parents what would they think if their kid became a pro chess player, I'm sure they'd be the happiest parents ever. Just because you believe physical training is more valuable doesn't make it so. Collective thinking that it is is what finally makes it true.
On December 15 2010 07:13 ashaman771 wrote: the original command and conquer has much more in common with sc2 than chess.
If SC2 is a sport, then just about every video game is a sport.
So you agree that chess, not requiring physical exertion, is a sport? Quite different from your previous posts, and if you do, does that open the field for other non-physical activities, including video games (be it SC2 or any other), to become sports?
And as said before, the mental requirements of SC and chess are not comparable, the two activities are similar in that they are competitive, mentally taxing activities, of course they require a different skillset.
There are two necessary (but not sufficient) conditions for an activity to be a sport.
-Competition -Physical Exertion
Card games are not sport. Poker, Dominion, Magic the gathering aren't sports.
Board games aren't sport. Monopoly, Chess, Tide of Iron aren't sports.
Video games aren't sport. SC2, Halo, Quake aren't sports.
Pub games aren't sport. Pool, darts aren't sports.
Competition alone isn't sport. My friend and I trying to beat eachother on a math test isn't sport.
Physical Exertion alone isn't a sport. Me running up 50 stories of stairs isn't a sport.
Even activities that have both competition and physical exertion aren't sport. My friend and I trying to build a house fastest isn't a sport.
Sport, as well as requiring competition and physical exertion requires the added dimension of cultural acceptance of the activity as a sport.
SC2, Halo, Quake are competition. It takes skill, it takes practice, it's fun to play and watch, but a sport it is not.
Being a relatively high rated chess player, I have to strongly disagree with you. I've done physical sports, chess and starcraft, and by far the most demanding physically and mentally is chess. You have obviously never sat down for 2-3 hour games, three times in one day--(and in fact, the top chess players are extremely physically fit) and nor have you seen how competitive chess is at the professional level.
Due to your own inexperience, you label chess not a "sport"--I suggest you go do your research, because it fills both your initial criteria, as well as the cultural aspect. Of course, in North America there is barely any competition, but there are entire schools dedicated to chess in Russia, and chess clubs and tournaments all over Europe.
Chess is the most physically demanding? That is wrong on numerous accounts.
Mentally, yes. Physically? No.
And as for the "top players are extremely physically fit", this depends on what you mean by "extremely". Running 5-6 miles in one setting is not being "extremely physically fit". Benching/Squatting/Dead lifting you own weight is not being "extremely physically fit".
SC2 is a battle of brain power while sports are battles of physical power requiring little of the opposite number. SC2 requires minimal physical ability (compared with say football (soccer if ur american)) and football doesn't require much mental just avoiding people and knowing when to shoot pass etc.
Why should a battle of brain power be valued less than a battle of physical power?
Probably coming down to a few factors:
1) Sports are hundreds of years old some even thousands and society has grew up with them where as esports as a concept is only 10 years old, you cant possibly hope to match 1000 year old traditions with a 10 year concept that has only really took off in 1 country (so far)
2) Viewability - sports do not soley depend on the graphical ability of computers and TVs, if you want to see a football match you can go buy a ticket and watch it in person and the TV technology has become basically perfected for sports.
If you want to watch a SC2 match you have to go onto the computer and watch a stream, if it happens to be laggy your screwed. I dont think its to do whether you can't see the players or its hard to see whats going on because its not, ESL showed the players while they were playing in the global gamescom and GSL does it and im sure this will be added into many more tournaments, and to understand what is going on isnt that hard if you try.
The viewability issue will inevitably improve as the rest of the world catches up with the broadband technology that korea has and with the gradually improvement of streaming technology this problem should gradually disapear.
3) Cultural stigma; the western world tends to have alot of stigma against gamers, such that they are lazy, socially inept and genrally quite boring. This infact is the complete opposite of the truth and proffessional gamers are some of the most hard working, socially active and entertaining people in the world (take incontrol for example) and not just the gamers all the commentators and other inspiring community members.
As starcraft 2 grows and gets more coverage people will eventually realise that the genralisation is not the case and start to drop their stigma against gamers.
Overall this is going to take time, its not going to happen in a matter of months but will be inevitably faster to take ahold of society than a traditional sport due to the massive and growing communications powers of the internet.
So my final summary is that esports and sports are just different mediums of competition using differents aspects of ones life (brain power vs physical power) and i would advise to be patient and just watch as many tournaments as possible either in person or on the internet because thats whats going to attract media attention and growth in the scene.
All it's really going to take is the younger generation to grow up. We grew up with video games, and just now they're becoming more popular with adults.
At the moment, Starcraft is too inaccessible. People just see things moving across a screen. To know somebody is really good at starcraft you pretty much have to play it. Anybody can watch the 100m dash at the olympics and say "DAMN he's fast! He must train really hard to be able to run like that." Starcraft, not so much.
On December 15 2010 05:32 IntoTheBush wrote: I can answer this! Sports is a physically draining activity, while e-sports is more of a mentally draining activity. Ive never heard of someone being sore from pwning newbs online.
I can think of many "sports" that aren't very physically demanding, example every shooting and marksmanship sport either with gun, rifle or bow and arrow.
What's the difference there? Don't tell me those aren't real sports they're in the Olympics.
Speaking from a very limited experience, marksmanship sports actually require a lot of physical training to keep the stabilizer muscles in peak condition for accurate shooting.
I'm suprised this conversation is still going on. Even the community doesn't consider video games as sport...hence the invention and use of a different category: esports. If we really thought SC2 was a sport, we'd simply call it a sport instead of parading it as an esport.
So the difference between sports and esports is that esports...aren't sports at all. We just call them that way because we're not satisfied with the label of "game". Mario Bros is a game...Farmville is a game....So many people devote so much time and energy into SC2 and it is so competitive that it can't possibly share the same category as those lame examples. So to better represent how we feel about SC2, SF4, CS, etc we created a new category for them that reflects the spirit of competition. And what's more competitive than sports? So esports makes sense in that way.
However, as was mentionned earlier in this thread, physical activity is required for a game to fit the definition of a sport. That's just the way the word is defined. It doesn't mean SC2 is less competitive or less worthy of our time. The OP was very good at listing similarities between sports and esports that make the latter quite valid. Lack of physical activity DOES, however, exclude video games from the definition of sports. The same thing applies to poker, cards, chess which are all very competitive with high skill caps but are categorized as GAMES and not sports.
So by definition SC2 is a competitive game but not a sport. It's still ok to call it an esport since that's a poorly defined word anyway. Personnally though I think esports is inadequate and kind of a clumsy terminology.
tldr: esports are not sports...they're esports or games.
^^ This 100%
People really need to stop getting so caught up in the whole "e-sport" vs "sport" business and take it for what it is; a name, NOT a definition. SC2 doesn't need to be a sport to be socially accepted and profitable. Competition is competition my friends and in the end people just want to be entertained.
The generation gap is indeed a factor. Perhaps when football and soccer were first played competitively as a profession, it was also baffling to parents of the players.
But I think a bigger issue is the turnover in eSports. There are new games coming out every month, a new hit each year. In the general public's mind, there are very few computer/video games that can become worthy of a lifetime profession unlike football/soccer/hockey which will continue to exist. Parents don't want their kids to spend so much time training for something that may be just a fad.
well, atleast we know in 20 years when people at our current age ( i will assume something along the lines of 16-25) have kids esports can finally be big, until then, just be patient as we waste our lives thinking about the what ifs involving sitting in a booth with thousands of people watching.
Sports creates a social environment that is more obviously seen in the real world. eSports creates a social environment online that only becomes apparent when one travels to tournaments/sites that host eSports events.
One has a global audience of hundreds of millions of people, the other has MAYBE a few hundred thousand people at best that follows the scene closely... and thats a very generous number.
Are there actually any numbers released for say MLG/Gom viewers? I seriously doubt they even peak at close to 100k viewers.
To answer this question, I think it's best to use examples of what we consider and what we don't consider a sport. Is football or baseball a sport? Yes. Here the answer is obvious. Is swimming a sport? It's not a team sport but it is still a sport. Is golf or figure skating a sport? it's not as physically demanding as football but many do indeed consider them sports. Is chess a sport? The most widely accepted definition says a sport should have some physical exertion. So through this claim, I'd have to say it isn't a sport. However, it is a recognized sport by the international olympic committee. So if you define a sport by what they say is one, then I guess it is a sport (however, accepting something because other people say so isn't the best mindset to live by). Is racecar driving a sport? Hmm.. now here is where the line starts to become grey. If it is a sport, what condition does it pass that makes it a sport? I'd say it is because, like golf, the physical component of this sport is finesse, and dexterity. To put it another way, I think what separates a sport from a simple game is the fact that strategy isn't everything in a sport. There is a significant component attributed to the long process of perfecting technique. Even knowing the most perfect strategy in the world will not guarantee you a win in a sport. This is easily applied to video games like starcraft, and therefore I would also consider it a sport.
I would augment this discussion with the following:
The primary difference between Starcraft and a physical sport is in its natural appeal to the casual on uninitiated observer. Because Starcraft takes place in a virtual world with little to do with our world, the uninitiated can't appreciate it like someone could appreciate the speed of hokey or the difficulty of shooting a basketball or passing a soccer ball (or throwing a dart, or playing poker) or extreme sports. These things are popular because the average person can relate.
This will change somewhat as more and more of our society become gamers, but I think this is a big difference when it comes to appeal.
For example, think of how appealing it is for you to watch a game you don't know, when compared to starcraft. Then compare that to watching a physical sport you don't know. At least for me, the sport is more compelling.
On December 15 2010 09:21 Rifty wrote: One has a global audience of hundreds of millions of people, the other has MAYBE a few hundred thousand people at best that follows the scene closely... and thats a very generous number.
Are there actually any numbers released for say MLG/Gom viewers? I seriously doubt they even peak at close to 100k viewers.
Well I know for Boxer's matches in the GSL the viewer/VOD counts were insane. about 440 thousand VOD views and almost 775 thousand people were logged into the GOM website at one point (made it crash actually) Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=161872
Definitely not in the hundreds of millions yet, but it is a world-wide viewership with a growing number of people watching.
On December 15 2010 04:52 Bluetea wrote: eSports = electronic, on a screen usually Sports = IRL, using your body, etc.
You know, I'd love to see a video game where I can play without my body...
"but mom, i AM exercising! see how fast i move my fingers when i play games?"
jesus christ, stop taking things literally just to score useless points. the fact of the matter is, playing basketball or soccer requires so much more physical exertion, you cant even count computer games as "using your body" when put in comparison. the fact of the matter is, athletic sports require much more physical ability and comparable mental ability. being able to make smart decisions on the field or court and being able to actually carry out those decisions is much more impressive and difficult than making decisions while sitting in a chair pushing buttons.
On December 15 2010 04:52 Bluetea wrote: eSports = electronic, on a screen usually Sports = IRL, using your body, etc.
You know, I'd love to see a video game where I can play without my body...
"but mom, i AM exercising! see how fast i move my fingers when i play games?"
jesus christ, stop taking things literally just to score useless points. the fact of the matter is, playing basketball or soccer requires so much more physical exertion, you cant even count computer games as "using your body" when put in comparison. the fact of the matter is, athletic sports require much more physical ability and comparable mental ability. being able to make smart decisions on the field or court and being able to actually carry out those decisions is much more impressive and difficult than making decisions while sitting in a chair pushing buttons.
Is Formula 1 a sport to you (or any other racing competition)? Those guys just sit in their seat and turn their steering wheel (while 'pushing' buttons with their feet).
I get that the International Olympic Committee's opinion has a lot of weight when we consider what constitutes a sport. But I think we should know what the criteria are for the IOC to decide what constitutes a sport. From their their website:
How does a sport become Olympic? To make it onto the Olympic programme, a sport first has to be recognised: it must be administered by an International Federation which ensures that the sport's activities follow the Olympic Charter. If it is widely practised around the world and meets a number of criteria established by the IOC session, a recognised sport may be added to the Olympic programme on the recommendation of the IOC's Olympic Programme Commission.
And a link to their charter. Page 86 is supposed to be the relevant information for sports. I don't know if I missed anything, but there is no criteria listed for us to use. Pretty much all we know is that a sport needs to be worldwide and have a governing body.
Unless anyone can find what criteria the IOC uses to decide what they consider to be sports, I don't think we should use the Olympics as a measure for what a sport is. Mainly because the IOC decides not really what is a sport, but whether a sport should be an Olympic Sport.
Real difference between sports and e-sports? No interest in e-sports from the fairer sex. If you want dicks to care, you first need chicks to care. And, honestly, i don't think many women find watching 12 colossi duke it out pretty interesting and, even more honestly, they never will. Want the lines between sports and e-sports to blur? Find a hero - like Korea did in Boxer- and advertise the shit out of him. Day9 has the charisma but lacks in the looks department, no offence. That's my 2 cents...
cmon... really? you dont see the difference? If you were a parent, would you rather see your kid being healthy, playing outside and getting lots of physical exercise, or rotting away with scoliosis on the computer? exactly my point.
Here is the thing. Physical skill is valued more than mental skill in our society because of one very big reason. Most people engaging in a mental activity surpass the joe-shmoe of the population in that aspect. Unfortunately, to appreciate the mental prowess of the individual, you have to be mentally skilled yourself, or at least a little bit. This is too much to ask for the average population apparently. Physical skill can be seen with the senses (aka you can see Jordan jump 3258823 feet, double pump dunk). So you can be an idiot and still appreciate what the guy is doing is sick good.
Both sports and e-sports have both physical and mental components. One has more of one than the other.
On December 15 2010 10:26 mprs wrote: Here is the thing. Physical skill is valued more than mental skill in our society because of one very big reason. Most people engaging in a mental activity surpass the joe-shmoe of the population in that aspect. Unfortunately, to appreciate the mental prowess of the individual, you have to be mentally skilled yourself, or at least a little bit. This is too much to ask for the average population apparently. Physical skill can be seen with the senses (aka you can see Jordan jump 3258823 feet, double pump dunk). So you can be an idiot and still appreciate what the guy is doing is sick good.
Both sports and e-sports have both physical and mental components. One has more of one than the other.
Then why do people look down on trades and invest more in an education in sciences/research?
On December 15 2010 10:26 mprs wrote: Here is the thing. Physical skill is valued more than mental skill in our society because of one very big reason. Most people engaging in a mental activity surpass the joe-shmoe of the population in that aspect. Unfortunately, to appreciate the mental prowess of the individual, you have to be mentally skilled yourself, or at least a little bit. This is too much to ask for the average population apparently. Physical skill can be seen with the senses (aka you can see Jordan jump 3258823 feet, double pump dunk). So you can be an idiot and still appreciate what the guy is doing is sick good.
Both sports and e-sports have both physical and mental components. One has more of one than the other.
Nope. Sports are significantly older with a much bigger established fanbase over the years. E-sports are a new phenomenon. Imagine if a new sport was created. Comparatively no one would watch it. It's the same situation here.
Please don't insult the intelligence of the general population, because from what I've seen of gamers (here and elsewhere), they're not some genius superbreed you seem to think. The technical aspect of sports like football and basketball is just as complex, if not moreso because of the variability of real-world actions, than that in SC and other games.
It's the physical aspect of sports. A sports athlete has a well trained body which translates into physical strength and endurance that can be useful in the real world. Skill in a video game is a bit harder to translate into real world value and is the biggest reason eSports doesn't seem worthwhile to the general populace.
On December 15 2010 04:52 Bluetea wrote: eSports = electronic, on a screen usually Sports = IRL, using your body, etc.
You know, I'd love to see a video game where I can play without my body...
"but mom, i AM exercising! see how fast i move my fingers when i play games?"
jesus christ, stop taking things literally just to score useless points. the fact of the matter is, playing basketball or soccer requires so much more physical exertion, you cant even count computer games as "using your body" when put in comparison. the fact of the matter is, athletic sports require much more physical ability and comparable mental ability. being able to make smart decisions on the field or court and being able to actually carry out those decisions is much more impressive and difficult than making decisions while sitting in a chair pushing buttons.
Is Formula 1 a sport to you (or any other racing competition)? Those guys just sit in their seat and turn their steering wheel (while 'pushing' buttons with their feet).
On December 15 2010 10:26 mprs wrote: Here is the thing. Physical skill is valued more than mental skill in our society because of one very big reason. Most people engaging in a mental activity surpass the joe-shmoe of the population in that aspect. Unfortunately, to appreciate the mental prowess of the individual, you have to be mentally skilled yourself, or at least a little bit. This is too much to ask for the average population apparently. Physical skill can be seen with the senses (aka you can see Jordan jump 3258823 feet, double pump dunk). So you can be an idiot and still appreciate what the guy is doing is sick good.
Both sports and e-sports have both physical and mental components. One has more of one than the other.
Imagine if studying and learning gave you attractive qualities like working out and playing sports?
On December 15 2010 04:52 Bluetea wrote: eSports = electronic, on a screen usually Sports = IRL, using your body, etc.
You know, I'd love to see a video game where I can play without my body...
"but mom, i AM exercising! see how fast i move my fingers when i play games?"
jesus christ, stop taking things literally just to score useless points. the fact of the matter is, playing basketball or soccer requires so much more physical exertion, you cant even count computer games as "using your body" when put in comparison. the fact of the matter is, athletic sports require much more physical ability and comparable mental ability. being able to make smart decisions on the field or court and being able to actually carry out those decisions is much more impressive and difficult than making decisions while sitting in a chair pushing buttons.
Is Formula 1 a sport to you (or any other racing competition)? Those guys just sit in their seat and turn their steering wheel (while 'pushing' buttons with their feet).
you ever saw a fat f1 driver win?
Who's a fat progamer in GSL who advanced to at least RO8 ? (btw - 'fat' Brazilian Ronaldo is a sportsman isnt he?)
On December 15 2010 10:26 mprs wrote: Here is the thing. Physical skill is valued more than mental skill in our society because of one very big reason. Most people engaging in a mental activity surpass the joe-shmoe of the population in that aspect. Unfortunately, to appreciate the mental prowess of the individual, you have to be mentally skilled yourself, or at least a little bit. This is too much to ask for the average population apparently. Physical skill can be seen with the senses (aka you can see Jordan jump 3258823 feet, double pump dunk). So you can be an idiot and still appreciate what the guy is doing is sick good.
Both sports and e-sports have both physical and mental components. One has more of one than the other.
Imagine if studying and learning gave you attractive qualities like working out and playing sports?
Einstein = Schwarzenegger
But seriously, in most peoples' eyes, gaming is for fun, fucking around, and killing time. And in truth, those widely accessible games are the some of the most profitable.
I think what sponsors need to do is to get their teams gym access. If players have open access to nearby gyms, they can relieve stress and pick up their physical fitness as well as mental fortitude.
The body's condition can affect the mind positively or negatively in many ways, you know.
On December 15 2010 10:26 mprs wrote: Here is the thing. Physical skill is valued more than mental skill in our society because of one very big reason. Most people engaging in a mental activity surpass the joe-shmoe of the population in that aspect. Unfortunately, to appreciate the mental prowess of the individual, you have to be mentally skilled yourself, or at least a little bit. This is too much to ask for the average population apparently. Physical skill can be seen with the senses (aka you can see Jordan jump 3258823 feet, double pump dunk). So you can be an idiot and still appreciate what the guy is doing is sick good.
Both sports and e-sports have both physical and mental components. One has more of one than the other.
Then why do people look down on trades and invest more in an education in sciences/research?
I'm talking in a sport sense. When people watch a sport on TV. If they see a chess master thinking for 10 minutes, they will be like meh who cares. It would take someone who has strong interest in chess to watch and appreciate whats going on. Obviously if you see a guy running really fast, you could be like "wow I could never do that".
In the defense of all the parents that doesn't understand. Have you ever tried sitting your dad and mom down with you, showed them how it works, explain the basic fundamentals of eSports and games in general. I did that a couple of years back, showed my dad shoot-em-up games and flight simulator, he pretty much took over the computer and played the games for himself. The plus side though is that nowdays he understands that this is my hobby and we sometimes sit down and play oldschool games together.
Also, I truly, TRULY believe that when we ourselves become old farts and have children of our own, that something new and flashy will be the youth "timesink" of choice, and we as adults will frown upon them and nag them to take up a real hobby, like eSport!
Now the thing is 'eSports' does not benefit your health in a positive way. Real sports does. People who want to get healthy or in shape don't say 'oh yea I'm gonna play some SC2' they go to the gym or join a recreational sports team. YES I enjoy watching esports and yea I play video games as well, sometimes quite a bit. But the no one wants to promote something that isnot good for your physical or social health.
More physical sports promote physical activity (obviously) which leads to better health, whereas e-Sports does the opposite. I see no difference in the amount of effort / skill required, but I would rather see my child practice soccer over halo, or something.
On December 15 2010 13:43 synapse wrote: More physical sports promote physical activity (obviously) which leads to better health, whereas e-Sports does the opposite. I see no difference in the amount of effort / skill required, but I would rather see my child practice soccer over halo, or something.
Aside from a health standpoint, I believe it also has to do with the social aspect of sports compared to e-sports. All of the most popular sports (soccer/football, american football, baseball, rugby, etc) are team based, person against person. In order to play these games even as a hobby requires face to face, physical interactions with another person on your team as well as people playing against you. Sure there are individual sports such as golf, tennis, running, etc. but even these require the physical presence of another human being to compete against, and are nowhere near as popular to watch as baseball or football.
When playing a video game, only the most serious of gamers play in a setting where their opponent is physically present (LAN parties, tournaments, etc). The exception to this is obviously split screen console gaming, but this is never done in a competitive/professional setting.
In society, as our social interactions occur more and more via digital media, I think e-sports will become more popular, but I don't ever see them becoming as popular as physical sports as long as we live on a single planet.
Just to try to sit down your parents and try to describe them very slowly what the game is all about and how it works. Mine are not very happy with me playing for a long time but can get that it is not just some random robot building
Just one thing to all the people saying eSports doesn't keep you fit and healthy and real sports does. Keep in mind, we are comparing professionals, take any pro athlete, take a look at their career timechart and tell me what percentage of that duration was spent on getting surgeries and recovering from massive injury. How many pro cyclists die at 30-35 from heart attacks due to overwork? How many football (or soccer for you yanks) stars retire a hobbled mess that can barely walk? Ever seen an interview with a boxer (not BoxeR :D)? Pro sports keeping you healthy is just a myth.
Rabbet Canada. December 15 2010 04:52. Posts 101 One builds character, the other builds a basement lurking loser who can waste away their youths and go into adulthood filled with regrets.
User was warned for this post
I don't understand TL. This is a very valid perspective, why does it get a warning.
Well, lets look at it in terms of failing (monetarily, skills, etc), if you fail at sports, at least you gain good health or a good exercise at least, but if you fail at esports, you gain NOTHING, put to risk your health (all those hours sitting in front of a computer does tremendous amount of damage to your eyes, hands, and waist line at the minimum) and you lose time which you otherwise could have spent working, studying, being with friends and family.
On December 15 2010 13:43 synapse wrote: More physical sports promote physical activity (obviously) which leads to better health, whereas e-Sports does the opposite. I see no difference in the amount of effort / skill required, but I would rather see my child practice soccer over halo, or something.
You would be surprised at the amount of drugs that are in professional sports. I wouldn't say it's good for your health, especially sports like long distance running/biking, boxing, baseball, etc. Almost everyone takes clen who is a long distance athlete, along with EPO being used among the higher tier of athletes. That's just the tip of the icecberg.
I bet you progamers are generally more healthy than professional athletes.
On December 15 2010 13:30 Nedfryst wrote: In the defense of all the parents that doesn't understand. Have you ever tried sitting your dad and mom down with you, showed them how it works, explain the basic fundamentals of eSports and games in general. I did that a couple of years back, showed my dad shoot-em-up games and flight simulator, he pretty much took over the computer and played the games for himself. The plus side though is that nowdays he understands that this is my hobby and we sometimes sit down and play oldschool games together.
Also, I truly, TRULY believe that when we ourselves become old farts and have children of our own, that something new and flashy will be the youth "timesink" of choice, and we as adults will frown upon them and nag them to take up a real hobby, like eSport!
Those dang kids!! :D
Perfect! :D
Silidons United States. December 15 2010 15:02. You would be surprised at the amount of drugs that are in professional sports. I wouldn't say it's good for your health, especially sports like long distance running/biking, boxing, baseball, etc. Almost everyone takes clen who is a long distance athlete, along with EPO being used among the higher tier of athletes. That's just the tip of the icecberg.
I bet you progamers are generally more healthy than professional athletes.
Off topic. Drugs could happen anywhere man. Lets assume all things being equal here.
On December 15 2010 14:57 m00nchile wrote: Just one thing to all the people saying eSports doesn't keep you fit and healthy and real sports does. Keep in mind, we are comparing professionals, take any pro athlete, take a look at their career timechart and tell me what percentage of that duration was spent on getting surgeries and recovering from massive injury. How many pro cyclists die at 30-35 from heart attacks due to overwork? How many football (or soccer for you yanks) stars retire a hobbled mess that can barely walk? Ever seen an interview with a boxer (not BoxeR :D)? Pro sports keeping you healthy is just a myth.
But when you look at sports played by children, it does very much so promote healthy activity. Since you don't wake up one day and be a professional athlete, what your parents and society view as healthy during your childhood is a valid property that helps explain why e-sports isn't as big as real sports.
On December 15 2010 14:57 m00nchile wrote: Just one thing to all the people saying eSports doesn't keep you fit and healthy and real sports does. Keep in mind, we are comparing professionals, take any pro athlete, take a look at their career timechart and tell me what percentage of that duration was spent on getting surgeries and recovering from massive injury. How many pro cyclists die at 30-35 from heart attacks due to overwork? How many football (or soccer for you yanks) stars retire a hobbled mess that can barely walk? Ever seen an interview with a boxer (not BoxeR :D)? Pro sports keeping you healthy is just a myth.
But when you look at sports played by children, it does very much so promote healthy activity. Since you don't wake up one day and be a professional athlete, what your parents and society view as healthy during your childhood is a valid property that helps explain why e-sports isn't as big as real sports.
It doesn't help, because every country have their own popular sports. Why europes play football und not american football. Why is cricket popular in several countrys and in other not. It only tradition which sport is popular. Since when is for example Rugby designed to be healthy or Boxing. It is all about competition and fame.
On December 15 2010 04:49 eveo wrote:EDIT: Made this thread because my parents don't take my gaming seriously. Dad was on the phone with my grandmother and was talking about what I do in my spare time and he literally described it as "he builds dingy little robots online for the majority of his time, and when he doesn't he sleeps. IM NOT EVEN TERRAN." I fucking lost it.
Besides the physical aspect, I see zero difference between eSports and conventional sports. But I suppose some might say that's exactly what sports are all about.
..In which case lol golf
On December 15 2010 04:49 eveo wrote: EDIT: Made this thread because my parents don't take my gaming seriously. Dad was on the phone with my grandmother and was talking about what I do in my spare time and he literally described it as "he builds dingy little robots online for the majority of his time, and when he doesn't he sleeps. IM NOT EVEN TERRAN." I fucking lost it.
.. Well, I guess this is the same thing as pissing all your time away shooting hoops, if the NBA didn't exist.
On December 15 2010 04:52 Bluetea wrote: eSports = electronic, on a screen usually Sports = IRL, using your body, etc.
You know, I'd love to see a video game where I can play without my body...
"but mom, i AM exercising! see how fast i move my fingers when i play games?"
jesus christ, stop taking things literally just to score useless points. the fact of the matter is, playing basketball or soccer requires so much more physical exertion, you cant even count computer games as "using your body" when put in comparison. the fact of the matter is, athletic sports require much more physical ability and comparable mental ability. being able to make smart decisions on the field or court and being able to actually carry out those decisions is much more impressive and difficult than making decisions while sitting in a chair pushing buttons.
Is Formula 1 a sport to you (or any other racing competition)? Those guys just sit in their seat and turn their steering wheel (while 'pushing' buttons with their feet).
Nope. I dont consider racing a sport. Still, it does have comparable or even higher risk than most conventional sports so it does get some of my respect. I dont consider poker or chess a sport. I barely consider golf a sport.
But now that you bring that up, I guess considering how many activities are considered sports that dont really fit the typical criteria, I guess SC could be technically/officially considered a sport since the definition seems to be so malleable nowadays. I personally wouldnt consider it a sport, but if youre just looking for public recognition who cares what I think yea?
Let me interject here with two points. Firstly I want to bring up the fact that despite looking like it needs a minimal degree of physical fitness, golf requires the player to be in fine physical shape to perform; look at tiger woods.
Secondly and more importantly, this discussion seems to have missed out on counterstrike as an eSport... It involves more direct components of physical precision, reaction time and finesse (just think of awping for example), that arguably are missing from sc, so a better angle for proponents of esport being a sport may be found from that angle.
On December 15 2010 12:46 piskooooo wrote: To the average person, seeing a giant dude catch a football is more appealing than seeing a skinny dude click some buttons and press some keys.
It's depressing but true.
>? im pretty sure we see epic sci fi battles where every action is life or death, unless you found a stream which just stares at the progamer in their seat, well than yeah that would be less appealing, and creepy.
A) The medium of which both are played. B) One is 100% required upon technology to be viable. C) Some sports have been played for thousands of years, games are lucky to reach a 1000 day life. D) Gamer stigma.
After seeing the posts on the first page, I'm not going to bother reading the rest if the pages.
The main difference between eSports and Sports that I see is how training works. When training for Starcraft, all you have to do is practice Starcraft. In any other sport, you spend half your training time working out, jogging, skipping, etc. You need to build your physical build and train for the sport at the same time with sports, but with esports, since you can't feasibly train your intelligence, you spend all your time practicing the game instead.
On December 15 2010 18:02 Vei wrote: eSports ruins your circadian rhythms and fosters ADD and late-night masturbation. or that's at least my experience ! =[
in all seriousness if curling can be televised so can fucking starcraft -_-
/thread. Pretty much, I'm pretty sure people who don't even know what StarCraft is rather watch SC than curling. ANYTHING is better.
On December 15 2010 05:40 ashaman771 wrote: If starcraft is a sport, so are board games, billiards, darts, etc. None of these are sports.
Actually you will find, darts, pool, snooker are sports... with HUGE cash winnings and big TV audiences. Maybe not in Canada.. but other countries. Snooker as an example does a tour with hundreds of tournaments of various sizes per year, so there's plenty of money around the tour, but then the world championship. 1st Place £250,0000 2nd Place £125,0000 semi's £52,0000 quarters £24,000 last 16 £12000 last 32 £8000 last 62 £4600
Highest break is something like 100,000, and if you get the maximum break of 147, you get £147,000 twice what the winner of GSL makes.. and you could get beaten in the first round and still walk away with that money.
How I wish Starcraft could make Snookers numbers in terms of tournaments, cash prizes, sponsers and TV coverage. But that will never happen if people continually shit all over E-sports. You don't need to be athletic to play these sports, but they are seem as acceptable everywhere they are played. So what is different about starcraft and other E-sports? well we have to make them acceptable don't we. Same as poker, same as chess, same as darts/snooker.
The discussion what makes a sport or not is uninteresting, but I will refer to athletic activity as sports, and starcraft and games as esports.
I would say there are several factors to why esports are not considered a viable choice of career. First off, it isn't a viable career for most of us. It is just a pastime, an easily accessible pastime. If you have to rationalize sitting hours at the computer by saying things such as "this requires fast decision making to be good at" and "I train my multitasking", perhaps you should try doing something else once in a while. In my experience not many casual practitioners of sports do it, or justify doing it, by referring to the extreme elite. It simply makes them feel good, they have fun doing it and it hopefully makes their clothes fit a little better. A problem for games here is the natural time limit existing in physical activities but not in gaming.
Secondly, it is the society in general and the young age of esports. This has been discussed extensively in this thread and earlier ones. It is a big part of the explanation I believe, and it will change as the old people die, and the young grow up. Also I believe feelings is a big part of this point. When you are physically drained it is much easier to show your feelings. A winner falling down on the finish line in a combination of tears, exhaustion and happiness makes a bigger impression than a gamer giving a gentle smile as his opponent GGs. This is not true in all situations, but it is how I conceive it in general.
Concerning the pro level, I have full admiration for anyone having the guts, skills and determination to succeed at any sport or esport. I do believe the most physically demanding sports are harder simply because it takes years and years of training and luck just to get the resilience to be able to train hard for hours day after day, but I wouldn't want to take anything away from anyone making a choice and standing by it.
The social aspect of gaming is good. Again I think meeting people in person is better, and it is naturally intertwined with many sports it I consider them healthier. But since gaming and meeting people are not mutually exclusive it is a non-argument and being part of something is more including than excluding.
Rabbet Canada. December 15 2010 04:52. Posts 101 One builds character, the other builds a basement lurking loser who can waste away their youths and go into adulthood filled with regrets.
User was warned for this post
I don't understand TL. This is a very valid perspective, why does it get a warning.
Well, lets look at it in terms of failing (monetarily, skills, etc), if you fail at sports, at least you gain good health or a good exercise at least, but if you fail at esports, you gain NOTHING, put to risk your health (all those hours sitting in front of a computer does tremendous amount of damage to your eyes, hands, and waist line at the minimum) and you lose time which you otherwise could have spent working, studying, being with friends and family.
It's not a perspective. It's a stereotype that negatively effects all gamers and has no real foundation in truth. It gets a warning because it's insulting, ignorant and offensive.
On December 15 2010 04:52 Rabbet wrote: One builds character, the other builds a basement lurking loser who can waste away their youths and go into adulthood filled with regrets.
User was warned for this post
lol that hurts. but i dont think flash and jaedong are losers ;P more like BALLERS!
The difference is almost purely the social and cultural constructions that society has towards gaming. I do not think in our lifetimes it will be accepted as roundly as most more 'traditional' sports, it requires more time, exposure and support to grow. There will always be people that see gaming as not a legitimate sport, just as there are always people that deride traditional sports. Its all in culture and perceptions, how we grow up, we absorb far more bias in our views from the previous generation than we realise. The best thing we can probably do to help establish e-sports is to sit down and play a few games with our future children alongside more established sports, teach them that the medium does not carry a negative stigma.
"Sports" are athletic and athletics build muscle, enhance coordination, creates a healthy lifestyle, and builds social/teamwork skills that are helpful to be successful in adult life. As Gen. MacArthur stated: "Upon the fields of friendly strife are sown the seeds that, upon other fields, on other days, will bear the fruits of victory."
"Gaming" is inherently nonathletic and anti-social behavior, and too much of it will make you physically unhealthy. Gamers would like to call it "esports" to give it a sense of legitimacy, but the two are completely different activities, and there is more than just the ignorance of parents justifying their concern for their children.
I'm going to quote this for the sake who didn't read it a few pages ago, even if sport is "good" for your health it has a bad side:
On December 15 2010 07:26 mordk wrote: A different possible debate here is that people are implying that competitive level sports only have positive physical consequences, statement which I consider false. Many activities considered sports have bad, and I mean really bad consequences. Take for example, the proven relationship between repetitive head trauma (Boxing) and Parkinson's Disease. Or the bad cases of knee and hip arthrosis derived from running long distances for a lifetime, or some premature deaths in account of heart failure reported in soccer, and other aerobic sports activities, obviously depending on each athlete's genetics.
Of course physical activity has beneficial health effects, but let's not confuse sports with physical activity with physical training, they are both in practice and medically, very different things.
So please, don't come with: because eSport is sooo bad at your health and sport no. LIE!, the two give problems at your health if you take it to an extreme.
Rabbet Canada. December 15 2010 04:52. Posts 101 One builds character, the other builds a basement lurking loser who can waste away their youths and go into adulthood filled with regrets.
User was warned for this post
I don't understand TL. This is a very valid perspective, why does it get a warning.
Well, lets look at it in terms of failing (monetarily, skills, etc), if you fail at sports, at least you gain good health or a good exercise at least, but if you fail at esports, you gain NOTHING, put to risk your health (all those hours sitting in front of a computer does tremendous amount of damage to your eyes, hands, and waist line at the minimum) and you lose time which you otherwise could have spent working, studying, being with friends and family.
It's not a perspective. It's a stereotype that negatively effects all gamers and has no real foundation in truth. It gets a warning because it's insulting, ignorant and offensive.
WRONG. Do you mean to tell us that Jaedong, Flash, and all other pro, semi pro, non pro, and just regular guys who enjoy esports are offended by it? He is expounding on a particular and decadent spectrum of esports/video gaming that he feels strongly about. Something which occurs as a matter of fact. Denying it only worsens the problem. If one feels that it directly speaks to him and he is offended, maybe its time he examines his life. Could Rabbet have framed it more politely? For sure. But one should take the high ground and take it with a bit of good humor. Or simply ignore it.
i made a pretty serious about this in my 3rd year of unniversity and the conclusion was the lack of global organisation in esport. There is no esport global federation and this is the big thing.
The first thing that comes to mind when people say Sports is physical activity. But there used to be games/past times like Pool, Curling, Darts etc. that don't require a lot of physical activity but precise skill in order to play it competitively.
eSports is usually frowned upon by parents because it is still so young. Majority of people are risk adverse and this is the case among parents. Every parent wants the best for their child and that is why they would have their children do strenuous physical activity instead of playing pool/darts/curling that does not involve much of it. Same thing for eSports.
The e stands for electronic. If it's heavily dependant on electronics, it's an eSport.
The reason people frown upon it is because they aren't familiar with it. I mean most people who watch sports wouldn't care to know what starcraft is or how it works. A lot of them don't even understand all the rules of the games they watch, they just want to see impressive physical feats.
It's not immediately evident how well someone's playing a game of starcraft if you're not familiar with the game, on the other hand.
eSports are still VERY young. People didn't start to really use electronics to earn money probably until the last 5 years or less. Sports have been around since man has had free time basically. Except for FPS games most eSports such as RTS are really difficult to understand whats going on if you don't play the game. If someone showed me a high level game of Civilization i would have no idea whats going on. Where as Sports have generally the same idea. Bring this object to the other side its nice and simple. Doesn't take a genius to understand how Soccer works.
Sports is all about the wow. "Wow, that guy has hops!". "Wow, he bulldozers over 300 pound men". Watching Starcraft, I feel like a lot of the older generation is like "ehh, if I practiced everyday I could do that easily." Or they begin to think there's a lot of luck in it. Obviously it's not true, so in order for something like e-sports to take off this barrier has to be crossed. Most likely this will be crossed by having people play the game which enforces the idea that there is skill to the game.
It's frowned upon by parents because it does not benefit your life in a positive way. While you are playing sc2 other kids are on sports teams meeting new people. This improves their social and physical health. Think about it why would parents want to promote their child to become a 'pro-gamer'? It does NOT BENEFIT YOUR LIFE.
Take for example 2 different people. One training to become the next IdrA and the other training to become the next Micheal Jordan. The chances of these people actually making it to the GSL/NBA are very very slim. Now assume they both fail at becoming pro at sc2/basketball. Who now has a better standing in life? I would bet 9 times out of 10 the basketball player is farther ahead in life than the gamer. The basketball player is in shape, has friends, built teamwork, socially competent, etc. The gamer is ....good at starcraft2? probably technologically savvy, uhh I dont know many other positive things in life that one get achieve through gaming. This is why e-sports will never be as popular as every gaming scene wants it to be, because it just doesnt benefit the gamers life in a positive way.
On December 16 2010 01:24 chadus wrote: Take for example 2 different people. One training to become the next IdrA and the other training to become the next Micheal Jordan. The chances of these people actually making it to the GSL/NBA are very very slim. Now assume they both fail at becoming pro at sc2/basketball. Who now has a better standing in life? I would bet 9 times out of 10 the basketball player is farther ahead in life than the gamer. The basketball player is in shape, has friends, built teamwork, socially competent, etc. The gamer is ....good at starcraft2? probably technologically savvy, uhh I dont know many other positive things in life that one get achieve through gaming. This is why e-sports will never be as popular as every gaming scene wants it to be, because it just doesnt benefit the gamers life in a positive way.
A lot of gamers aren't even technologically savvy... but SC players sure type, click, and move faster than anyone else at a computer. Work efficiency++.
Think the biggest barriers right now are the age, accessibility and exposure of e-sports.
Any other well known competitive event has a rich history behind it. That provides a large fan base that creates the demand for the sport or event to be shown outside of obscure venues.
To play an e-sport event(game) yourself you gotta have a baller PC or a console (for halo nerds). Not everybody can afford that and not every kid will grow up that privileged. Any poor kid can get a ball to play soccer/ b-ball or baseball you know. And public parks to play in are more common than LAN centers for gaming.
Exposure is limited for e-sports right now. You gotta dig around on the net to watch games. This will get better as internet media improves and we move away from the TV being the king of home entertainment.
Oh yea I don't think it's a matter of one side being physically demanding while the other side is not. And at the same time it can't be said that e-sports are more strategically demanding because strategy plays a huge role in athletic sports as well, it's just a bit more subtle. Though sometimes it can be obvious such as pass the ball to the star player, but w/e.
I think understanding has a lot to do with things. My parents can barley turn on a computer let alone understand the concept of a competitive video game. I think that when people experience their first noob slaying then they will understand and accept e sports.
I think that one separation is that Sports have a more intrinsic entertainment value (participating and watching). It's a much smaller leap for a non-fan to enjoy the best basketball, football or soccer players in the world in action. If someone doesn't play video games at all, enjoying a starcraft match is virtually unattainable.
What gets me is that a lot of parents wouldn't mind if you spent the same amount of time playing chess....but when it comes to a video game....OH HEEELLLL NO!
On December 16 2010 05:37 SpaceYeti wrote: What gets me is that a lot of parents wouldn't mind if you spent the same amount of time playing chess....but when it comes to a video game....OH HEEELLLL NO!
If there was some standard e-sport that everyone could agree was fair and balanced and completely and effectively the best test of a gamers skills.....then I think we'd have something akin to a sport. It's just games and the spirit of competition and there's nothing wrong with that! Have fun!
Like most things, the definition of sport isn't a hard term with clear explanations of what is and isn't a sport. It's a fuzzy concept that encompasses competition, skill and physical exertion. You could take most Olympic sports - track & field, hockey, soccer, etc. and have pretty much everyone agree that it's a sport.
Then take some other sports like figure skating or gymnastics- these have all the elements mentioned above, but are sports that are judged for artistic and technical merit. Most consider them sports, but some do not.
How about chess? It's an extremely refined competitive activity that has been around for years, and some here are saying that it's widely accepted as a sport. While that may be true for some, others don't consider it a sport because it lacks physical exertion. I think it's fair to say that chess would fit only a more borderline definition of sport. So, to make the argument for starcraft being a sport based on a borderline example like chess isn't really a strong argument.
Finally, I present a counter example. Lots of kids study music and compete in competitions playing the piano, the violin, etc. These are extremely skilled activities that take over 10000 hours of practice to master (just like other sports), and devoted kids will practice 5+ hours a day. They'll possess remarkable dexterity, moving their hands in much more intricate patterns than hitting hotkeys in a game. Since it has been done for generations, the intensity of competition can be quite high. Is this considered a sport? I've never heard anyone argue for it, but it shares many of the same characteristics as sports.
Who said there is a difference? Its all relative(as most of these types of post are) to what you consider a sport then throw the e in front of it. Thats really all there is to it. If for obvious reasons there is no certified league ranging from elementary - college level. There is no total body sanctioning board like Players association, President or director of the board, there is no NCAA. Then you have to go into are we talking about America(which it seems to be from the OP) or are we talking about korea(where it is a sport).
Tradition sports are not owned by corporations. No corporation owns the game of baseball, basketball, football etc. Traditional sports rarely ever change over time. Technology effects traditional sports to a degree [conditioning, equipment etc.], but the rules of the sport usually stay the same.
when my parents used to complain about missing dinner for a match (I played competitve TFC, CPL etc.) i used to ask them if they'd be upset I missed dinner because I had a basketball match at the YMCA on thursday at 7 instead. They would always regretfully say 'no' and understand what I was getting at.
Both are hobbies we do for fun, I'm not wasting my time playing a game over basketball im not going Pro in gaming and im not going to the NBA. I can get physical activity in other arenas so really just do what you enjoy. The only problem with gaming/basketball/any hobby on planet earth is when you neglect actual responsibilities such as school/work etc. to the point it could have a severe impact on your future.
to make the point if bowling, nascar, pool, etc. are sports than so is competitive gaming. the only difference is public understand and acceptance but those will come with time. It will likely never reach the heights of the NFL etc. but it should become exponentially bigger in the next decade or so.
Sports have a long history and have developed a reputation for fostering virtues such as fitness, work ethic, social skills, etc. Games don't have such a reputation; they may or may not develop it in time but it doesn't seem to have such obvious benefits so I wouldn't count on it being seen comparably any time soon.
From my personal experience, having spent quite a bit of time playing organized sports and playing organized games, I don't think the benefits of games stack up to those of sports at this point. That's not to say they never will, but not yet.
Your parents just want what's best for you and based on the temperment of your post, I wouldn't be surprised if they're starting to draw a correlation between your attitude and games. Is it possible this looks more like addition than dedication to them?
Sports have a long history and have developed a reputation for fostering virtues such as fitness, work ethic, social skills, etc. Games don't have such a reputation; they may or may not develop it in time but it doesn't seem to have such obvious benefits so I wouldn't count on it being seen comparably any time soon.
The main difference between sports and esports is like people in an election for high school president. Usually the most popular(hottest) person wins even though they are not the best suited for the job. This is pretty much how esports are in North America. Esports is like that nerd trying to run against the popular jock. The nerd would probably be 10x the president but doesn't have a chance.
-Sports are mainly physical while esports and other "mind sports" are mainly mental -Sports are extremely easy to follow which is why they are huge. More people = more sponsors = more prize money. Esports can only get as big as their own player-base, so to say, because of how hard they can be to follow.
In order to get more viewers a game needs to be simple enough for people who don't play it to understand it and it needs to reward aggression more(imo). Most esports reward safe play which is rather boring for most people to watch.
Take Quake 3 and/or Live for example: Most of the game is people taking potshots and grabbing armors at a high level. No real action goes on. This is the same with CS where people will sit for most of the round waiting for someone on the other team to make a mistake. Starcraft is a bit better in these aspects because you can be more aggressive at higher levels where people have high levels of multi-tasking.
As of now I see SC2 and Halo 3/Reach as being the best esports for people outside of gaming to follow. This is based upon having large a large playerbase and being fairly easy to follow.
On December 17 2010 02:50 Defeat wrote: -Sports are extremely easy to follow which is why they are huge.
That's not true. Sports are easy to follow when you already understand them. There is a reason American football hasn't caught on in Europe and it is not because it isn't an awesome sport. It's because most people don't understand it enough and blows it off with prejudice. Why give it a chance when you already "know" that it sucks?
Another example of a huge sport that needs knowledge before it translates into fun is proffesional cycling.
Chess is considered a sport yes, but its not a popular one, usually the popular ones get you great bodies. i still dont think most people would identify chess as a sport either. If you experience positive physical attributes that people can progressively observe, i dont think practicing it would be a problem. If a 400 lb man who looked like a couch surfer said he was a compeitive soccer player, you would probally call BS on that one. If someone who was ripped said they were a pro soccer player there would be no trouble understanding.
Like most people have already said, sports provide the physical activity and health to the body that e-sports doesn't. While e-sports main thing is mental activity, don't forget that playing sports also requires a high level of mental toughness and discipline. Not sure if someone mentioned this already, you can't just win in sports at the highest levels of competition without playing smart. Of course there are exceptions where someone is just so physically powerful they can overpower other players, but more often than not it's the team that plays better mentally, because the average guy in any pro sport is at about the same level of athleticism. also, don't forget that while most of the people on TL may pay more attention to competitive e-sports, most of the people who play video games in general are not playing seriously and just do it for fun. Basically what I'm saying is that at the pro levels sports and e-sports should probably have an equal level of respect, but when it comes down to the casuals playing sports simply gives off a better image because it is healthier. that's probably why parents don't like their kids playing computer games so much because they see no benefit, especially if they are assuming that their kid is just playing for fun. i'm sure that there are alot of parents who would support their kids if they were actually playing competitively and with purpose, but i do not believe most people who play games play with any purpose except for fun
I think one of the biggest road block in getting eSports big in the USA is that they call it a sport.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on starcraft or any game, I just donlt see how anybody could consider it a sport. Sports are physical games played by athletes, starcraft is not, it's a compotition.
Look at poker, nobody's calling it a sport but it's still on espn. Esports need to find a new name IMO.
Probably because sports are much more competitive in the sense that there is a lot more money at stake. Any one major league sports player makes more money than an entire year's starcraft BW and SC2 tournaments combined, I think.... Also, eSports is kind of going against millenia of olympian-type activities that reward players for their physical condition as opposed to their mental state. eSports is an extremely new concept and it trying to squeeze it's way in with years of traditional sports.
ppl say chess, automobilism, poker and some other board games are "sports" i couldnt disagree more. sports are supposed to be about athleticism, strenght, conditioning, cardio, pain, body technique, tactics and competition. e-sports and the forementioned stuff have somethings in common but... they're not sports...yet =)
On December 17 2010 05:20 DayJP wrote: ppl say chess, automobilism, poker and some other board games are "sports" i couldnt disagree more. sports are supposed to be about athleticism, strenght, conditioning, cardio, pain, body technique, tactics and competition. e-sports and the forementioned stuff have somethings in common but... they're not sports...yet =)
Huh, no, sports is all about competition, tatics, and training/effort. Even if training/effort doesnt envolve strength, pain, etc, its still effort put into something.
We should label things like p-Sports and e-Sports from now on, imo, where 'p' is physical.
On December 15 2010 04:52 Bluetea wrote: eSports = electronic, on a screen usually Sports = IRL, using your body, etc.
Chess?
I mean, even chess professionals play against the computer in show matches on a screen, and chess is wildly considered a sport.
e-sports are mind sports basically.
One thing though that I feel does separate them from other sports in practice is that they are 'owned', sports are in the public domain usually, no one has the intellectual rights to football and the copyright thereof. Some company usually does posses the intellectual control of some sport, and one could argue that this is bad for sports in general. Imagine if chess was owned by someone who charged you 50 eur for a 'chess account' you needed to play it, and systematically ensued legal action against any third person manufacturer of chess boards and other chess stuff, that's basically what's happening in e-sports.
On December 17 2010 04:55 HarryHood wrote: I think one of the biggest road block in getting eSports big in the USA is that they call it a sport.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on starcraft or any game, I just donlt see how anybody could consider it a sport. Sports are physical games played by athletes, starcraft is not, it's a compotition.
Look at poker, nobody's calling it a sport but it's still on espn. Esports need to find a new name IMO.
That's a good point.
I think the majority will automatically want to tear down "E-Sports" because its name.
There should be a rebranding. "Professional Gaming" sounds fine to me... but not as catchy.
I think in separating the two, what matters most is how the audience perceives them.
In physical sports (some consider poker to be a sport) your physical attributes as well as skill determine the outcome. Now depending on the game, the weather or the referee could change the outcome but overall physical sports are balanced and therefore entertaining.
Starcraft BW was considered balanced, and a very deep game. The game also has several physically demanding mechanics. That difficulty made the game entertaining to watch. Also the fact that the barrier between average player and the pro was vast, added similarities with sports.
If chess or poker can be considered a sport, I think BW has the same right to be considered as such. It's very balanced, intellectually and physically demanding; has many factors to drive spectators interests.
So as far BW is concerned, it's a sport in my opinion.
SC2 is just an esport. The game isn't balanced. It's depth is lacking in comparison with it's predecessor. In terms of spectatorship especially during large battles, it's difficult to follow because of the emphasis on death animations.
A large number of the changes in SC2 are there for it to sell as a game to the average consumer, not for the purpose of esports.
For the growth of Esports blizz took a step back in SC2, to make the game friendlier thus selling more copies.
On December 17 2010 04:55 HarryHood wrote: I think one of the biggest road block in getting eSports big in the USA is that they call it a sport.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on starcraft or any game, I just donlt see how anybody could consider it a sport. Sports are physical games played by athletes, starcraft is not, it's a compotition.
Look at poker, nobody's calling it a sport but it's still on espn. Esports need to find a new name IMO.
I agree. I've played my fair share of video games, but whenever i hear video games given a description with the word "sport" involved, my first instinct is to laugh.
On December 17 2010 06:12 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: ... I mean, even chess professionals play against the computer in show matches on a screen, and chess is wildly considered a sport. ...
What??? Are there really countries that consider chess a sport? I feel confident that if I asked every single person I knew (USA) not one would say that chess is a sport.
That being said, I will agree parents are probably going to be much happier about lots of chess than lots of starcraft, even though in many ways they are very similar.
Instead of using our physical bodies to be the components of the game, usually a program/IP is used.
most sports dont utilize a computer program... instead they just use an idea aided by various equipments... whereas a computer program is not solely an equipment or an idea...
There's little difference in the infrastructure of e-sports/sports. It's just the matters of IP.
On December 17 2010 02:50 Defeat wrote: -Sports are extremely easy to follow which is why they are huge.
That's not true. Sports are easy to follow when you already understand them. There is a reason American football hasn't caught on in Europe and it is not because it isn't an awesome sport. It's because most people don't understand it enough and blows it off with prejudice. Why give it a chance when you already "know" that it sucks?
Another example of a huge sport that needs knowledge before it translates into fun is proffesional cycling.
I've tried really hard but I dont have an idea what baseball is about.
On December 15 2010 05:07 aka_star wrote: a ball, I tried to argue with my friend that the mouse sometimes has a ball in it but he wouldn't accept it still :-/ so until the pro sc2 players can juggle and play sc2 it will convince the majority of people that its a legit sport
so true now that i look at it. all major sports in the world uses a ball(hockey uses a puck but same concept). Look @ basketball,american football, football, tennis, golf, cricket, ping pong and rugby.
Either a ball or physical contact. Look at K-2, MMA, and boxing.
Then there are the minor sports like rowing and w/e.
real sports also dont have forums full of people whining and crying about the "balance of the game". Since its based on skills and human limitation. Imagine if tennis nets/courts were adjusted every month. It would not be a legitimate sport.
real sports also dont have forums full of people whining and crying about the "balance of the game". Since its based on skills and human limitation. Imagine if tennis nets/courts were adjusted every month. It would not be a legitimate sport.
Sports get adjusted all the time, example look at hockey. 2 line pass, hitting from behind, tons of goal crease changes, stick sizes. People shoot off about refs all the time. In every non northamerican country people have massive brawls after the game. They go and pound the piss out of each other. I think a bit of esports flamming is acceptable.
real sports also dont have forums full of people whining and crying about the "balance of the game". Since its based on skills and human limitation. Imagine if tennis nets/courts were adjusted every month. It would not be a legitimate sport.
Sports get adjusted all the time, example look at hockey. 2 line pass, hitting from behind, tons of goal crease changes, stick sizes. People shoot off about refs all the time. In every non northamerican country people have massive brawls after the game. They go and pound the piss out of each other. I think a bit of esports flamming is acceptable.
Good try though, thanks for your hard work.
When these changes happen they are deliberated and the people playing the game accept it and adjust. It also has a lot less of an effect on the game because physical conditioning can overcome most obstacles.
Most of the brawls are fans who are angry and upset that their team lost. Not the players going out and saying that "Oh yeah man, if the goal size was smaller we would of won".
BW for example has been stable in terms of balance for years, this is part of the reason it was able to grow into such a huge sport in Korea.
Esports takes legitimate skills, but it will have trouble being accepted mainstream due to the lack the physical aspect.
When these changes happen they are deliberated and the people playing the game accept it and adjust. It also has a lot less of an effect on the game because physical conditioning can overcome most obstacles.
Seeing that your from america ill let this one slide, Up here in canada we eat hockey pucks and children are born with hockey sticks. The 2 line pass cause chaotic backlash between northamerican hockey players and the rest of the world. As far as fighting goes and physical contact rules go. I would expect that there would be some complaints in the NBA in they made basket ball a full contact sport. It wouldnt be just the fans complaining. Players argue in game to the refs all the time.
On December 17 2010 08:53 Seide wrote: real sports also dont have forums full of people whining and crying about the "balance of the game". Since its based on skills and human limitation. Imagine if tennis nets/courts were adjusted every month. It would not be a legitimate sport.
instead of forums, it's newspaper for sports (see FIFA)
You guys realize that BW pro's are required to work-out to maintain their mental and physical health? It's actually pretty important to stay healthy. Playing any game will always benefit from being healthy. Ever wondered why the majority of top players in SC don't look unhealthy? Looks don't define health either, so if you take a minute to take a gander at some top players with open eyes you may be surprised at what you see.
eSports don't lack in the health departments, gamers are generally just too lazy to care about themselves. Especially casual gamers. eSports does promote health and increased mental faculties. eSports, however, does not promote excessive muscle building. People confuse health with body building too often, I feel. There is no linear progression of health as you gain muscle.
For those of you who don't work out and still play SC, remember you're not classified as even an amateur player. Amateur doesn't mean sucks, it means you're not on a wage but still compete for prize money. You're likely a casual player, like myself. Casual sports don't promote health much either. Especially when you consider the amount of injuries that stem from them. Most casual sport play only helps with your cardiovascular muscles signficantly. It's the activity that most atheletic individuals incorporate into the rest of their day that tends to make a healthy individual.
Also, this whole eSports makes you less social while Sports makes you more social is a pretty big pile of bullshit. I've been quite an atheletic individual in my life and grew up with a bunch of athletic friends in high school and college. They're mostly bricks. Both socially and mentally.
Sports do little to promote social skills. Atheletes are not commonly the nicest people around. I certainly don't remember any atheletes being great at speeches in my speech class, being good at keeping a group entertained, or all that good with talking to women. Most of them are actually quite bad at it, if women is what you're implying with social skills. For the casual "athelete" (I don't like applying that word to casuals, but w/e) that you see running around your HS/College they'll likely have the social skills of Beer/Muscle/Penis. Hardly any better than your average basement bunkered eSports casual.
It's pretty simple. People who take the initiative to be healthy or social will be. Likely at a low cost to their time, too. eSports/Sports will barely impact either of those traits in a person. At the very high end of the spectrum where people actually become professional it's basically a requirement to be both sociable (to some degree) and healthy for both eSports and Sports.
Btw, if you think raging/BM is limited to the online world you REALLY need to get out of your bubble and meet people.
So what's the difference between eSports and Sports. Like some others have said, it is the letter "e". That's it. In the end, all sports are just games. In that same sense, all games can be sports. It's just a matter of professionalism and money.
PS: July is the only one who breaks the limits of reality. He is the one with the power. The power to roll.
Go lookup the recognised sports by the Olympic Committee: here
I see ballroom dancing. Ballroom dancing is literally a sport, why? I'm glad you asked...
Medical research has shown that Dancesport is comparable with other sporting activities such as basketball, squash and cross country running with dancers performing at over 80% of their maximum oxygen consumption level and burning up at least 300 calories per hour (Blanksby & Reidy, 1988). A typical competition requires dancers to be dancing throughout the day for 10 hours, and to be recalled through a number of rounds, before reaching the final. During the final they may have to dance up to all 5 of the dances in their discipline back to back, being able to take the exertion while making it appear effortless.
It seems the definition of sport goes along the line of being physically challenging/demanding. ANYTHING that follows this can be labeled a sport. I don't see why 1v1 breakdancing battle competitions wouldn't be recognized as an Olympic sport either lol. By definition and Starcrafts nature, I don't think it will be accepted literally as a sport as it doesn't meet the requirements.
Sorry guys! Startcraft is NOT a sport.
Having said that. Starcraft is an eSport. eSports is recognised as competitive electronic games that range over many different genres such as first person shooting to RTS. Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esport
eSports as seen on the wiki page, looks just like the Olympic recognized sports page. They both have governing bodies (TeamLiquid is listed as a Governing Body/eSport Association for global eSports BUJAH!) and both have different disciplines (rowing, shooting olympic sports / Starcraft, Counterstrike eSports)
What seperates eSports from sports? As many have said time and time again, it's the physical side. So embrace your eSports! As eSport is not some bastard term of sports. It actually describes a large community, which we are on right now (TL.net).
eSports even has whats like a global governing body like the olympic committee. The International eSports Federation here: IeSF which was founded by 9 national e-Sports associations in August 11, 2008. As soon as everyone jumps onbaord with this, or a better one is made. eSports will be just as recognized as Olympic sports. (sure maybe not as respected, but recognized none the less).
Also 1st TL post. I can say bastard when used in context right?
It seems the definition of sport goes along the line of being physically challenging/demanding. ANYTHING that follows this can be labeled a sport. Also 1st TL post. I can say bastard when used in context right?
Sure you can, doesnt mean your point is any more valid. I think competition is the big part of what makes a sport. Child birth is physically challenging/demanding, is that a sport?
It's mostly a generational thing. Your parents didn't grow up with it so it's wrong in their minds.
Along with the media shedding a bad light on gaming and brainwashing people about it.
On the subject of physical exertion, true, you're not running around for an hour. However, a lot of people probably get a rather increased heart rate. Sustaining that for hours, can burn up quite a bit of energy and be a fair substitute. With the obvious exception of the muscle gain. I'm sure this would only be amplified once playing in tournaments.
I get the same thing. I recently moved back in with the olds, due to a harpy woman for a housemate. Anyway, I like to sit down and play some SC2 or Battlefield or something with my mates for a few hours after work. This apparently accounts for an "addiction" according to my dad.
Because apparently sitting on my ass watching mindless TV, is much better than playing something that requires thought and effort, and reaction times, hand speeds, accuracy etc, as SC2 or BF, with my friends...
Aaaaaaaaanyway, back to the main point. I think a lot of parents and people around that generation. Would look more highly on simply bouncing a ball against a wall for hours, than anything related to video games.
Sports don't change. You don't see the update patch or the sequel to baseball that changes all the rules and the strategy. It has been the same for generations, so it has been perfected to an art-like form. When you see games come and go within years, it's hard to keep up or get serious into gaming, because the game that you have perfected...is going to be replaced in 2 weeks.
TLDR: I made 0 long term friends in sports, I made many great friends and had much better time playing video games competitively. You should do what you love. Slow down and enjoy life, you only live once.
I might be an exception to the rule, but I played sports until I was 15. I mostly played hockey, but I also played at least a season of Soccer, Baseball, Basketball etc in my youth. The usual thing, my mom signed me up with the local parks and rec programs etc.. you played a season, usually 2 practices a week, then a game, then a final tournament, . I spent a lot of time playing/practicing with my teams/ by myself. I won the "league tournament" was even offered a spot on a traveling Hockey Team. I don't feel like I accomplished much, anything that I learned about team work was basic at most..
I have 0 life long friends from my sports experiences, and consider them mostly meh. Hockey was fun, and I enjoyed it, but my High School Hockey experiences were mediocre at best, and even though I was good I was never really good or anything.
I have been playing competitive video games since I was 13. I have been to lans, traveled, etc. While I have won nothing larger than 200$, I feel like I have come a long way. I am absolutely terrible at starcraft, and have no dreams of being really good. I have never played 12 hours a day or anything, but I do enjoy playing and watching a ton. I feel so bad for people out there that don't do the thing they love to do. If you have a dream, go for it. If you have fun doing something go for it. This fucking capitalist society that I live in, where if your not working, you should be working. And then you should die, is so freaking dumb, it's ridiculous. People need to slow down and enjoy life. If that means you want to play 24 hours a day, that's fine with me. It's not my place to judge you and say, you should go get a career, cause that's not for everyone. If you have fun doing what your doing, do it.. You only live once. I still talk to my friends that I made playing competitive video games. I still go and visit them in other states, even though our interests and lives have taken us other ways... to say that I got nothing from video games is like saying I don't get energy from eating food. My team mates from my halo days taught me 5000x more about team work and life than any sport ever did. I learned more about life from video games than any of those real life sports I played.
My step fathers best experience of his life was when he picked up, quit his job, went to Hawaii, backpacked all over the place for 4 months and had a awesome time. He died this year of a heart attack at the age of 47. Someone at the reception was trying to tell me about how awful that was and how he had to beg for his job back when he got back, and how he gave up all this crap that lets face it, didn't matter in the end. What mattered was that he had the best time of his life, and he loved telling me about it, and talking about it, and how he wished he could take us all there and share those experiences with us. The fact is we lived comfortably off this job that was never the same for a long time, and to my step dad it was worth it. You don't take time to enjoy life, than what the fuck is the point of working and building a life for yourself? I know people that died that never retired, or slowed down, and who hated their jobs and lives. I just don't understand why they did it.
It seems the definition of sport goes along the line of being physically challenging/demanding. ANYTHING that follows this can be labeled a sport. Also 1st TL post. I can say bastard when used in context right?
Sure you can, doesnt mean your point is any more valid. I think competition is the big part of what makes a sport. Child birth is physically challenging/demanding, is that a sport?
Well if you can ultrasound the baby. Estimate its weight and so on and make rules/judgement on those variables with points given (bigger baby, more points). Whoever births it faster and keeps their heart rate on average lower wins. Thats competition. Sounds silly, but prove me wrong?
Well if you can ultrasound the baby. Estimate its weight and so on and make rules/judgement on those variables with points given (bigger baby, more points). Whoever births it faster and keeps their heart rate on average lower wins. Thats competition. Sounds silly, but prove me wrong?
What about people who give birth to twins, are premature births op? Smaller baby slip out faster.
Don't wanna be that guy, but I see a lot of posts here that people that had played sports would never make. I'm not saying anything is wrong with that, but those who have played sports at a high level, and have also played "eSports" will know the difference, and know why eSports is not culturally accepted.
Well if you can ultrasound the baby. Estimate its weight and so on and make rules/judgement on those variables with points given (bigger baby, more points). Whoever births it faster and keeps their heart rate on average lower wins. Thats competition. Sounds silly, but prove me wrong?
What about people who give birth to twins, are premature births op? Smaller baby slip out faster.
I know where you're coming from Adun, my point is that sports are sports and esports are esports. They are both similar but both very different and we should not mix the two because they are different and can stand alone independantly. eSports doesn't need to try and be a sport because it has merit in itself already. But I agree, premature births, totally OP.
On December 17 2010 02:50 Defeat wrote: -Sports are extremely easy to follow which is why they are huge.
That's not true. Sports are easy to follow when you already understand them. There is a reason American football hasn't caught on in Europe and it is not because it isn't an awesome sport. It's because most people don't understand it enough and blows it off with prejudice. Why give it a chance when you already "know" that it sucks?
I don't believe that is why. IMO You only got half of your post correct. The reason they blow it off is because certain sports are more predominate in some areas of the world. See soccer vs football in america and europe.
On December 17 2010 10:47 TheGiftedApe wrote: physical athletic ability. It's not the same as good hand eye coordination/mental ability. Same reason skipping rocks isnt a sport.
lol exactly
I can't believe this thread has 14 pages. Some people are really having trouble differentiating games and hobbies from sports.
Sports are athletic competitions played by athletes. Video games don't require athletics.
And, FYI, this debate is nothing new. People have been trying to argue that professional Bass Fishing (which is 100x larger then eSports and and also requires coordination, endurance, tactics, etc,.) is also sport, when in fact it's simply a competitive game/hobby just like gaming.
Basically, any activity where you can smoke a pack of cigarettes and put a back a few beers while still competing at the highest level is hardly a sport.
On December 17 2010 11:13 Proximo wrote: Basically, any activity where you can smoke a pack of cigarettes and put a back a few beers while still competing at the highest level is hardly a sport.
so baseball isn't a sport? or golf?
and using your own definition, the a competitive bass fisher who is intoxicated and/or restricted cardiovascular potential will not do as well a sober one, so bass fishing is a sport. the same goes for bowling, nascar, darts, billiards, and poker.
Mark Sanchez snacked on a concession stand hot dog during an NFL game. does that mean Football is hardly a sport?
On December 17 2010 10:38 Demarini wrote: Don't wanna be that guy, but I see a lot of posts here that people that had played sports would never make. I'm not saying anything is wrong with that, but those who have played sports at a high level, and have also played "eSports" will know the difference, and know why eSports is not culturally accepted.
I played very competitive soccer, indoor soccer, and a bgit of rugby, for a good 15 years. I would agree with a lot of the posts here and in no way would say that they are made by "people that haven't played sports".
Basically, any activity where you can smoke a pack of cigarettes and put a back a few beers while still competing at the highest level is hardly a sport.
Darts.
I don't believe that is why. IMO You only got half of your post correct. The reason they blow it off is because certain sports are more predominate in some areas of the world. See soccer vs football in america and europe.
I didn't like American football until I understood the rules and now I like it a lot. As for it being more predominant, that is generally due to what came first in that country, with a side of "is that country good at it".
Society accepts what it knows, sports came before eSports, therefor it has had a lot of time to become engrained in society and become accepted. Along with being the "norm". eSports is relatively new, especially in western culture.
Give it time until gen x and y are running this shit, and I think you will start to see change. It's societys way of working. It really has nothing to do with sports at all, it's purely because it's new, and foriegn to the majority of of society.
Same thing with Homosexuality. Just give it time, and like a poster above said, show people Day[9] #100.
Basically, any activity where you can smoke a pack of cigarettes and put a back a few beers while still competing at the highest level is hardly a sport.
so baseball isn't a sport? or golf?
and using your own definition, the a competitive bass fisher who is intoxicated and/or restricted cardiovascular potential will not do as well a sober one, so bass fishing is a sport. the same goes for bowling, nascar, darts, billiards, and poker.
I've never seen a professional baseball players or golfers drink beers and smoke 25 cigarettes during a game. And, for the record I don't think golf is sport, baseball barely is.
Bass Fishing? Friend does it professionally for a living and smoking and the odd beer has zero effect. "restricted cardiovascular potential" - lol good one
Bowling, darts, billiards, and poker are all games that have been around well before eSports and went through this a same debate. They were never considered sports and the people that play them were never considered athletes. They are games.
There is difference between games and sports which people seem to be confusing. This isn't a criticism, or make one worse then the other, it's simply a fact.
Bowling, darts, billiards, and poker are all games that have been around well before eSports and went through this a same debate. They were never considered sports and the people that play them were never considered athletes. They are games.
There is difference between games and sports which people seem to be confusing. This isn't a criticism, or make one worse then the other, it's simply a fact.
Actually, darts is considered a sport, and those that play it as athletes.
Bowling, darts, billiards, and poker are all games that have been around well before eSports and went through this a same debate. They were never considered sports and the people that play them were never considered athletes. They are games.
There is difference between games and sports which people seem to be confusing. This isn't a criticism, or make one worse then the other, it's simply a fact.
Actually, darts is considered a sport, and those that play it as athletes.
Bowling, darts, billiards, and poker are all games that have been around well before eSports and went through this a same debate. They were never considered sports and the people that play them were never considered athletes. They are games.
There is difference between games and sports which people seem to be confusing. This isn't a criticism, or make one worse then the other, it's simply a fact.
Actually, darts is considered a sport, and those that play it as athletes.
*crappy lack of rebuttal.*
I never said they were fit. Your terrible picture rebuttal did nothing to help you. In fact, if anything, it helps me. Think about it and perhaps you will realize why.
Bowling, darts, billiards, and poker are all games that have been around well before eSports and went through this a same debate. They were never considered sports and the people that play them were never considered athletes. They are games.
There is difference between games and sports which people seem to be confusing. This isn't a criticism, or make one worse then the other, it's simply a fact.
Actually, darts is considered a sport, and those that play it as athletes.
*crappy lack of rebuttal.*
I never said they were fit. Your terrible picture rebuttal did nothing to help you. In fact, if anything, it helps me. Think about it and perhaps you will realize why.
lol, what is there to rebut?
Sad to say, but I stopped taking you seriously when you began gushing about the worldview of society, homosexuality, gen x , gen y, and western culture in relations to eSports
I truly wish you the best of luck my friend, and hopefully one day western society will see the light and judge all WoW, starcraft, etc, players for the true athletes they are.
I truly wish you the best of luck my friend, and hopefully one day western society will see the light and judge all WoW, starcraft, etc, players for the true athletes they are.
Casual gamers are not athletes. Those that train and play competitively are. Playing catch with a baseball does not make me an athlete.
On December 15 2010 04:49 eveo wrote: "he builds dingy little robots online for the majority of his time, and when he doesn't he sleeps. IM NOT EVEN TERRAN."
I liked this part btw, last time I checked, only Protoss had Robotics bays. Obviously, you play Protoss
On December 15 2010 04:49 eveo wrote: "he builds dingy little robots online for the majority of his time, and when he doesn't he sleeps. IM NOT EVEN TERRAN."
I liked this part btw, last time I checked, only Protoss had Robotics bays. Obviously, you play Protoss
Sports are athletic competitions played by athletes. Video games don't require athletics.
Poker is considered a sport. How is the most luck based game, which requires no physical training at all, considered a sport? I feel like your definition isn't right.
On December 17 2010 11:30 Proximo wrote: I've never seen a professional baseball players or golfers drink beers and smoke 25 cigarettes during a game. And, for the record I don't think golf is sport, baseball barely is.
I would rather not go off topic, but how do you support this? Golf is arguably the most technically difficult game in the world, and those that are good at it have spent countless hours practicing. In order to really succeed, you have to have godly amounts of determination. I won't even bring up baseball. I hope you were joking about that one.
Sports can benefit someone who just does it purely for the fun of it naturally because you're getting active and doing your body good. Even if you play a dumb game like 'horse', you get some exercise out of it.
On the other hand, with eSports, playing 4v4 BGH will, in all honesty and you all know it, get you nowhere. Now, it WILL be fun and will prove to be entertaining, but it will have no beneficial value beyond that while playing 'horse' can be beneficial health-wise and entertainment wise.
But if you take eSports to another level where you are actively thinking, participating, and studying the game, you will benefit in hand/eye coordination as well as being able to react, think, and make good decisions; even in real life!
Don't really expect for your gaming to be taken too seriously until you invest yourself into it. Play the game with intellect and intention, and your actions and behaviors will naturally show the benefits of playing the game.
Bowling, darts, billiards, and poker are all games that have been around well before eSports and went through this a same debate. They were never considered sports and the people that play them were never considered athletes. They are games.
There is difference between games and sports which people seem to be confusing. This isn't a criticism, or make one worse then the other, it's simply a fact.
Actually, darts is considered a sport, and those that play it as athletes.
*crappy lack of rebuttal.*
I never said they were fit. Your terrible picture rebuttal did nothing to help you. In fact, if anything, it helps me. Think about it and perhaps you will realize why.
lol, what is there to rebut?
Sad to say, but I stopped taking you seriously when you began gushing about the worldview of society, homosexuality, gen x , gen y, and western culture in relations to eSports
I truly wish you the best of luck my friend, and hopefully one day western society will see the light and judge all WoW, starcraft, etc, players for the true athletes they are.
That's alright, because you clearly are not the smartest person in this thread. Not even close. By the way, pretty sure I never mentioned "world view". I'm sorry that I made this discussion too complicated for you by exceeding the "gamers are fat and real sports use a ball" route it seemed to be going with you.
I'll let you get back to your box now.
EDIT:
On December 17 2010 12:42 MusiK wrote: I think it depends on how involved you are in it.
Sports can benefit someone who just does it purely for the fun of it naturally because you're getting active and doing your body good. Even if you play a dumb game like 'horse', you get some exercise out of it.
On the other hand, with eSports, playing 4v4 BGH will, in all honesty and you all know it, get you nowhere. Now, it WILL be fun and will prove to be entertaining, but it will have no beneficial value beyond that while playing 'horse' can be beneficial health-wise and entertainment wise.
But if you take eSports to another level where you are actively thinking, participating, and studying the game, you will benefit in hand/eye coordination as well as being able to react, think, and make good decisions; even in real life!
Don't really expect for your gaming to be taken too seriously until you invest yourself into it. Play the game with intellect and intention, and your actions and behaviors will naturally show the benefits of playing the game.
First, I don't think anyone was saying 4v4 BGH was eSports lol.
Secondly, that statement can apply to sports as well, sure, you can go a play sports, but if you don't put much effort in you're not going to get much, if any, physical exertion, skin cancer maybe.
I remember plenty of games of soccer, where even in a proper season I did almost no running the entire game, more because the ball was never over my way (Defense brah ) so i kinda had nothing to do. :/
Not to mention even on a casual level games like SC2 can be beneficial, generally mentally though. However reaction speed, awareness, management, etc can come into it. Hell, it can even help people to learn other languages, or even their own language better, which is a nice bonus.
Bowling, darts, billiards, and poker are all games that have been around well before eSports and went through this a same debate. They were never considered sports and the people that play them were never considered athletes. They are games.
There is difference between games and sports which people seem to be confusing. This isn't a criticism, or make one worse then the other, it's simply a fact.
Actually, darts is considered a sport, and those that play it as athletes.
*crappy lack of rebuttal.*
I never said they were fit. Your terrible picture rebuttal did nothing to help you. In fact, if anything, it helps me. Think about it and perhaps you will realize why.
lol, what is there to rebut?
Sad to say, but I stopped taking you seriously when you began gushing about the worldview of society, homosexuality, gen x , gen y, and western culture in relations to eSports
I truly wish you the best of luck my friend, and hopefully one day western society will see the light and judge all WoW, starcraft, etc, players for the true athletes they are.
That's alright, because you clearly are not the smartest person in this thread. Not even close. By the way, pretty sure I never mentioned "world view". I'm sorry that I made this discussion too complicated for you by exceeding the "gamers are fat and real sports use a ball" route it seemed to be going with you.
I'll let you get back to your box now.
My friend, I'm deeply saddened and insulted by these personal attacks, especially after I wished you all the best in your athletic endeavors.
And to clarify, your central argument was that eSports aren't recognized as true sports becasue of 'society; which is in fact a criticism on the 'worldview' of the society i.e. Definition of Worldview: the fundamental cognitive orientation of an individual or society encompassing natural philosophy; fundamental existential and normative postulates.
You obviously you missed this with your busy schedule (training, being the smartest guy on teh internet, etc,.) so I'll let it slide this time.
Now that I've cleared things up for you I demand an apology. I'll even give you another chance and take your posts seriously again.
On December 15 2010 07:10 Fa1nT wrote: One of them has thousands of years of establishment, the other has less than 20.
eSports will explode in the next 50 years. Humans are no longer as primitive as they once were and can seek competition in non-physical ways
Very good point. I just wish i was born a generation later.
Bad point. How is seeking competition in a physical way a bad thing? It keeps you in shape, humans are MADE to be active, and sports hardly primitive. I would rather live in a world of football players then in a world of SC2 junkies.
Sports are athletic competitions played by athletes. Video games don't require athletics.
Poker is considered a sport. How is the most luck based game, which requires no physical training at all, considered a sport? I feel like your definition isn't right.
Well, I don't think games like football are any more or less based on luck than Poker, with Poker it's just easy to grasp that it's a game of change.
You have to realize that the difference between a goal and a miss is basically a tiny amount of wind.
Basically, a good unit of luck is 'upset possibility', how often does it happen that a player considered lesser can beat a player considered better. Football is laden with examples such as Greek and Denmark winning Euro championships and other stuff, with single matches it's even worse, it's simply extremely possible that a team which on average performs far worse beats a strong team. Of course, the luck factor is filtered out over many games, which does justify that there is also a great deal of skill involved, but the luck factor is still fairly high, not per se higher than with Poker. I mean, there are very large, complex books written about the maths and the theory of poker, so indeed, there is strategy involved. Another thing about poker is that luck is filtered out already a bit because there are multiple betting rounds.
The ultimate luckless game seems to be go at this point, because upsets simply barely happen, it makes the game quite dull. If you know the name of the players, you can determine with 90% certainty who's going to win basically.
Luck is really a large factor of many games, it's just more explicit with poker, nonetheless not less present.
The point besides is that 'sport' is a vague term, various sports do not feature competition at all, some sports are also completely solitary, squash is a sport often played alone.
Another point about a variety of sports considered 'competitively' is that you do not really play against each other. You play besides each other against the clock, or against what-ever and you compare afterwards who did best. It's often explicitly forbidden in such sports to hinder each other, such as swimming, or cycling, or a marathon. It's hardly competitive in that way I would say. Mechanically swimming would be the same if each got to swim separately and they told them afterwards who won. But not as exciting for the audience no doubt.
There are several things that makes e-sports diffrent from regular sports, and thing that make them very similar.
Both have comptetive aspects, are mentaly draining etc etc.
Then there are the diffrences
Sports have been around for ages, they promote physical fitness, which in todays society is very key, beeing healthy and looking good, is often the staple of a successfull indivdual. E-sports isnt associted with any of it (please dont read it as that gamers are unattractive, i hope you get my point), and pro player need to work on thier health outside their playtime, which is key to prevent diesies like carple tunnel. Also remeber that the sterotypical "gamer" until recently has been a either a fat/very skinny pale nerd, which dosnt help out much.Im not going to get into social skills, while team based sports promots these, i dont see how team based E-sports like CS wouldnt do the samething, mayby starcraft specific dosnt improve social skills, but even there you have team mates to practise and talk starts with.
Parents view
While you can say things like "our parents didnt grow up with video games, therefore they dont understand us",i dont think is true, i think parents very well could adapt to you playing games professionally, but there porblem lies with the fact that games are infact a WASTE OF TIME, just like many forms of entertainment, for 95% if us, its a waste of time, its fun, but there is nothing we can gain from it in life, other then entertainment, atleast sports will make you healthy (unless you over do it), and in somecases it will able you to get a good education, scholarships are often given to prime athletes, which is another thing parents generally promote.
so in short, parents cant understand it, because most of the time is a waste of time, and are no benefits other then entertainment, yes some goes pro, but even then you are barely makeing money to live, not more then working at mcdonalds (yes there are the uber skilled 80k USD GSL winners, but even if you get top 64? you win what 300 USD? and i doubt you get alot of cash from sponors from getting to64). Why would a parent promot this when the child can go to collage, get a good education and later a well paid job?
Why E-sports never can be rival to regular sports.
Even if E-sports gain more social acceptence, it will never, ever rival sports,why? because games are short lived, in 20 years will we be playing sc 2? no, will fotball,basketball and soccer stll exist? yes, This will be a problem, since basically every new generation of gamers are going to follow a diffrent game, so there will allways be a generational block, unlike sports, where you granfather can be as excited about a soccer game as his 12 year old grandson,
Mayby in the future there will be a really good game that can last for a long time,but i highly doubt it.
Its funny seeing so many people post things that prefer sports better, while ur on an esport site, where theres actually a team who gets paid with a salary. The thing is, gaming has not been as acknowledged by as many people as sports today. It will just take more time. And also because of our countries culture. Say you lived in korea, then starcraft is a real esport
The thing is who cares. Sports are physical esports are a mental game. I agree with incontrol on sotg where he says just don't take it so seriously. The reason we love gaming is because it's fun and it isn't an obligation. It's a game, games are fun. So yeah don't care but I guess that would be the difference. And who cares about terms. Its up to you if you think it's a sport then it's a sport to you there's nothing else to it.
EPT
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