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On September 04 2010 15:10 Half wrote:
They fund it. They organize it. They popularize it.
Uh no, no and no. That's what they say they do and quite good and pretending to do.
By funding I hope you meant raping millions of dollars off of 2 broadcasting networks every year.
By organizing I hope you meant sending in few judges and observers and calling it a day.
By popularizing it I hope you meant taking the credit off of star players who worked their asses off like Boxer, Nada, Oov, reach, yellow, and dozens of others.
If Kespa hadn't been so greedy, OSL and MSL prize money could have been in 5 digits, not 4.
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I think it's obvious that having a stable professional BW scene in Korea was really good for the game in general and that it's important that a similar thing happen with SC2 for the SC2 pro scene to really be considered a success compared to BW, but I found the OP's arguments that BW needs to stick around for that to happen to be not very compelling and rather circular.
I think the writing has been on the wall for BW for a long time. While the level of play is super high, interest in BW has been steadily dwindling in Korea, and it's understandable. The newest generation of fans wasn't even born when Starcraft was originally released, and the pedigree of BW is a bit of a moot point because BW can't rely on die-hard fans to survive. New fans need to come to the sport, and they aren't going to care about NaDa or Boxer unless they get really into the sport. Even if SC2 never came on the scene, I wonder how many more years BW would've remained relevant as an esport? Could it have lasted another 5 years?
I think there are a few facts that BW fans need to acknowledge about BW. It's over a decade old, and it shows. It was great looking at the time, but to modern eyes it's ugly and archaic. It's also a bit buggy, and while veterans of the sport understand how the bugs integrate into making the game better and more exciting, to outside observers it makes the game look a bit clunky. Furthermore, pro matches can be downright boring. Take the recent match between Flash and Fantasy as an example. The games were brilliant, with Flash pulling amazing come-from behind victories due to supurb strategizing and excellent late-game play. The different styles of Flash and Fantasy were really on display, but a person without much game knowledge would've missed all the feints, missteps, indecision, and strategizing that made the games so interesting to watch. To the average would-be esports fan, those games would've been honestly kind of boring. Regardless of whether it's a better game, as a spectator sport SC2 is generally superior to BW.
I think what really needs to happen for the future of Starcraft esports is for the fans, backers, and broadcasters to make the transition from BW to SC2 happen as smoothly as possible. I think top pros and top teams need to switch to SC2, and I think being an SC2 player needs to become a full time job as it was for BW. I also think BW fans need to recognize that their support for SC2 is necessary for SC2 and the Starcraft esports scene in general to survive in Korea and continue to thrive globally.
As far as BW, I think we can count it's disappearance as basically a given, but as to whether SC2 will thrive in Korea as BW has, I think only people living in Korea and who are knowledgeable of the SC scene can say with any confidence. In my opinion our responsibility as fans is just to continue to watch top level matches and to express support for the people who are trying to make pro SC2 a reality.
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On September 04 2010 15:17 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 15:14 Vokasak wrote:On September 04 2010 15:10 Half wrote:
Most importantly how is Kespa beneficial to the scene AT ALL?
....Is this a trick question? They fund it. They organize it. They popularize it. Perhaps in a crazy hypothetical world, if key founding members were mysterious shot in the face, we'd have a better organization taking, but that really isn't the point. The point is Kespa, as it currently exists, provides vital functions to the survival of the BW progaming scene. I'm pretty sure the team sponser companies fund the teams/players, and that OGN/MBC fund the broadcasting. I'm not sure what other funding you could be refering to. As far as I can tell, organization is handled by the leagues (MSL, OSL, PL) itself and not by KeSPA, and the only "organization" I've seen come from KeSPA have been steps in the wrong direction like the gg nonsense and the like. Wouldn't things like handling match fixing fall under "organization"? Why didn't they do that before the whole thing exploded into a publicity shitstorm? They popularize it? No, that honor goes to the passionate fans and talented players. Just admit it, KeSPA doesn't do shit. luls. If they don't do shit why do they exist? Solely to leach money from the Esports scene? Is that your honest opinion?
You don't seem to understand how criminal organizations work.
Hint: They work like Kespa.
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5930 Posts
If Kespa hadn't been so greedy, OSL and MSL prize money could have been in 5 digits, not 4.
Last time I checked, OSL and MSL prize money at in the 30,000-40,000 USD range which are definitely in the 5 digit range.
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As I said in another post: prize money will follow the biggest trend, players follow the money, and fans follow the players.
This is exactly the kind of bullshit mentality thats wrong with SC2 right now. You're right. Thats completely right.
Now what the fuck happens when the next "big thing" happens? Craft of Stars 7. Oh right. The new game is saturated with money by corporate interest, pros shift over for monetary gain, and the players follow because well, what choice do they have? Be left to languish in dieing forums in a motley skeleton crew?
That isn't Esports, thats just the continuation of the serialization driven video game industry that is increasingly failing to produce anything of actual quality.
You don't seem to understand how criminal organizations work.
Hint: They work like Kespa.
Yes, and Criminal Organizations are very crucial part of the fucking drug trade. How else are you going to get Opium Grown in Afghanistan, to get processed in Turkey, Shipped to Spain, and Smuggled into the states?
Are they absolutely brutal on a scale incomparable with kespa? Yes. Do they exist for a very damn good reason and do great "benefit" tot he Drug Trade? Yes. Trust me, your pot would triple in price if it weren't for them.
edit:
And I'm not saying Kespa is a perfect system. Its a shit system. I'm saying overall its still a net benefit. I'd gladly welcome any competeting organization, without heavy ties to blizzard. Not because "Blizzard is teh evul", but because then theirs a huge conflict of interests.
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#2: No pedigree, No infrastructure:
You could not make people watch the Scottish Premier League by forcibly killing off the English Premier League. If the American Arena Football League somehow forced the NFL to fold, the millions of Monday night football watchers wouldn’t switch over to the AFL.
I feel this argument is a little weak. I mean for example, I have no problem watching either SC1 or SC2 games. Although I'd be sad if they shutdown SC1, it wouldn't be the game I'd be worried about, it would be the players that made the game so amazing. I'd honestly see them break away from kespa and join SC2 teams to continue their lives as 'professional gamers'.
Although it's a different game entirely, it's still 'starcraft', and honestly which SC1 pro right now wouldn't want to be top of SC2 too?
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"kespa does nothings and bla bla bla".
Kespa is the inevitable consequence when the scene gets real. The fact there is no e-sport association outside Korea just show how amateur is the scene out there. And those "oh but they are bad , they keep the money and bla bla bla", thats how the shit works. Thats how NBA, FIFA , NFL and all the shit works , its has a lot of money involved and its stinks.
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On September 04 2010 15:24 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +If Kespa hadn't been so greedy, OSL and MSL prize money could have been in 5 digits, not 4. Last time I checked, OSL and MSL prize money at in the 30,000-40,000 USD range which are definitely in the 5 digit range.
Well, I mean 6 digits, not 5. Pardon me.
Yes, and Criminal Organizations are very crucial part of the fucking drug trade. How else are you going to get Opium Grown in Afghanistan, to get processed in Turkey, Shipped to Spain, and Smuggled into the states?
Are they absolutely brutal on a scale incomparable with kespa? Yes. Do they exist for a very damn good reason and do great "benefit" tot he Drug Trade? Yes. Trust me, your pot would triple in price if it weren't for them.
If you're not Korean, it will probably be impossible for you to understand how the system works in Korea. Everything here exists in one form or another to make very few greedy and powerful people rich, while raping everyone else's pocket. And it is done in the name of the system. What's with you and Kespa? Have they got to you too?
And wtf are you talking about drugs? What are you, 12?
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This is exactly the kind of bullshit mentality thats wrong with SC2 right now. You're right. Thats completely right.
Now what the fuck happens when the next "big thing" happens? Craft of Stars 7. Oh right. The new game is saturated with money by corporate interest, pros shift over for monetary gain, and the players follow because well, what choice do they have? Be left to languish in dieing forums in a motley skeleton crew?
That isn't Esports, thats just the continuation of the serialization driven video game industry that is increasingly failing to produce anything of actual quality.
Welcome to the NBA/NHL/NFL/MLB.
They are paid athletes for sure. But LOL, wouldn't you like to get paid 300k a year to play as a bench warmer for the lakers and take garbage minutes for derek fisher etc..?
It's unfortunate that these progamers might be fucked over in a sense, but hey... did they really think the average of height of basketball players 20 years ago could only be like 6'3"? the game evolves and so do the sponsors that want stronger/faster/taller players etc... the game evolves and the players need to adapt if they want to continue making money doing something they like.
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Why can't we get along like the SF scene. SF4 and SF2 (or SF4 and SF3 if you are Japan) at the same time!
I don't know if this level of coexistence can happen anywhere with any serious amount of money involved honestly... ah but wouldn't it be grand.
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Asians don't have the body for physically aggressive sports.
So they watch games of the mind instead.
Here in the western world were much more physical, and aggressive. E-Sports will never be as big here as it is over across the sea, because there is much more "exciting" things to watch.
I don't understand why you guys don't get that? BW doesn't mean anything when it comes to SC2 future success. Its going to catch on regardless.
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If you're not Korean, it will probably be impossible for you to understand how the system works in Korea. Everything here exists in one form or another to make very few greedy and powerful people rich, while raping everyone else's pocket. And it is done in the name of the system. What's with you and Kespa? Have they got to you too?
Sorry, you don't need to be Korean to understand companies exist for the sole virtue of fattening the wallets of powerful stockholders. And? Welcome to the world.
Kespa provides infrastructure for the proscene. Nothing more, nothing less. Find me a thriving competitive scene of any kind spectator sport that doesn't have a centralized institution which is fun and hip to hate.
Yes, I understand big business sucks ok? Seriously, I find it ironic your lecturing me. However, it beats the alternative, just a bunch of leagues and teams bumbling around in the dark trying to organize televised events.
Now I'm not saying Kespa couldn't be better, I'd really love to see them crash and burn and have someone replace them. But at the same time, its pretty unarguable they did contribute a lot to making BW what it is today, and if they collapsed now with no replacement, so would the BW scene.
And wtf are you talking about drugs? What are you, 12?
You're the one who brought up criminal organizations. Speak for yourself kid. It was your analogy that really made no sense. You compared Kespa to criminal organizations, which really just reinforces my point that its a necessary and beneficial in relation to its market (starcraft and crime)
This is exactly the kind of bullshit mentality thats wrong with SC2 right now. You're right. Thats completely right.
Now what the fuck happens when the next "big thing" happens? Craft of Stars 7. Oh right. The new game is saturated with money by corporate interest, pros shift over for monetary gain, and the players follow because well, what choice do they have? Be left to languish in dieing forums in a motley skeleton crew?
That isn't Esports, thats just the continuation of the serialization driven video game industry that is increasingly failing to produce anything of actual quality.
Welcome to the NBA/NHL/NFL/MLB.
They are paid athletes for sure. But LOL, wouldn't you like to get paid 300k a year to play as a bench warmer for the lakers and take garbage minutes for derek fisher etc..?
It's unfortunate that these progamers might be fucked over in a sense, but hey... did they really think the average of height of basketball players 20 years ago could only be like 6'3"? the game evolves and so do the sponsors that want stronger/faster/taller players etc... the game evolves and the players need to adapt if they want to continue making money doing something they like.
Did you quote the wrong guy or something? I don't really get your posts relevance at all. Maybe you meant to quote someone who was comparing Kespa to the Mafia?
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On September 04 2010 15:37 ~Matthias wrote:
Asians dont have the body for physically intense sports.
So they watch games of the mind instead.
Here in the western world were much more physical, and aggressive. E-Sports will never be as big here as it is over across the sea, because there is much more "exciting" things to watch.
lol, so im guessing baseball, and soccer aren't intense physical sports. generalizing is bad. can i generalize that in north american schools, students are taught to generalize and are thus ignorant? ^^
i also kind of forgot that karate, judo, taekwondo, muay thai were sorta of developed as fighting sports. how can that NOT be aggressive.
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I don't agree that SC2 needs BW. I can understand where the OP is coming from and that BW nostalgia will last forever^^, but I am getting a little bit sick of all of the BW - SC2 threads lately.
Soley because the last 2 years in BW were highly boring, dominated by 2 practice macro machines, without any sign of personality (Flash/Jaedong). I am also really getting sick of the player interviews. Once you have read one, you know them all, because they are all the same (Glad to have achieved victory, will train hard for the next round/ Sorry that I didnt achieve victory, will train harder for the next tournament). It feels so boring, so old, so dead.
Then there was also the matchfixing scandal, which I bet was only the tip of the iceberg. Kespa always pissed me off and I guess they wont get any better.
The only times I actually watched BW lately, was when I was in Korea, but that is a whole different thing.
All in all, whatever happens, I hope SC2 can be a reset button for the boredom that BW was lately. And so far it succeded in that aspect. At least for me.
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On September 04 2010 15:40 Solai wrote:
I don't agree that SC2 needs BW. I can understand where the OP is coming from and that BW nostalgia will last forever^^, but I am getting a little bit sick of all of the BW - SC2 threads lately.
Soley because the last 2 years in BW were highly boring, dominated by 2 practice macro machines, without any sign of personality (Flash/Jaedong). I am also really getting sick of the player interviews. Once you have read one, you know them all, because they are all the same (Glad to have achieved victory, will train hard for the next round/ Sorry that I didnt achieve victory, will train harder for the next tournament). It feels so boring, so old, so dead.
Then there was also the matchfixing scandal, which I bet was only the tip of the iceberg. Kespa always pissed me off and I guess they wont get any better.
The only times I actually watched BW lately, was when I was in Korea, but that is a whole different thing.
All in all, whatever happens, I hope SC2 can be a reset button for the boredom that BW was lately. And so far it succeded in that aspect. At least for me.
if Jaedong bores you , the present SC2 play might put you in a coma.
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On September 04 2010 15:39 threehundred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 15:37 ~Matthias wrote:
Asians dont have the body for physically intense sports.
So they watch games of the mind instead.
Here in the western world were much more physical, and aggressive. E-Sports will never be as big here as it is over across the sea, because there is much more "exciting" things to watch. lol, so im guessing baseball, and soccer aren't intense physical sports. generalizing is bad. can i generalize that in north american schools, students are taught to generalize and are thus ignorant? ^^ i also kind of forgot that karate, judo, taekwondo, muay thai were sorta of developed as fighting sports. how can that NOT be aggressive.
Yeah. Sure those are aggressive.
But whens the last time you saw two koreans beating each other into unconsciousness. Apparently thats what we find entertaining here. (MMA) Or football. Or boxing. Or hockey.
Maybe I should have rephrased my original post, because looking back I see all of these as sports where its required to come into physical contact to play
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On September 04 2010 15:37 ~Matthias wrote:
Asians don't have the body for physically aggressive sports.
![[image loading]](http://blog.badmotorfinger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/bolo-yeung.jpg)
This guy would like to disagree with you.
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Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 15:39 Half wrote:
If you're not Korean, it will probably be impossible for you to understand how the system works in Korea. Everything here exists in one form or another to make very few greedy and powerful people rich, while raping everyone else's pocket. And it is done in the name of the system. What's with you and Kespa? Have they got to you too? Sorry, you don't need to be Korean to understand companies exist for the sole virtue of fattening the wallets of powerful stockholders. And? Welcome to the world. Kespa provides infrastructure for the proscene. Nothing more, nothing less. Find me a thriving competitive scene of any kind spectator sport that doesn't have a centralized institution which is fun and hip to hate. Yes, I understand big business sucks ok? Seriously, I find it ironic your lecturing me. However, it beats the alternative, just a bunch of leagues and teams bumbling around in the dark trying to organize televised events. Now I'm not saying Kespa couldn't be better, I'd really love to see them crash and burn and have someone replace them. But at the same time, its pretty unarguable they did contribute a lot to making BW what it is today, and if they collapsed now with no replacement, so would the BW scene. You're the one who brought up criminal organizations. Speak for yourself kid. It was your analogy that really made no sense. You compared Kespa to criminal organizations, which really just reinforces my point that its a necessary and beneficial in relation to its market (starcraft and crime)
You do understand the concept of extortion, right? Making threats and robbing money from already underfunded business owners?
You do understand the fact that criminal organizations do stuff other than just drug trade?
Seriously, is that your view of the world? Every criminal organizations in the world shipping drug mules? Is that the extent of your 'analogy'?
I'd really love to see them crash and burn and have someone replace them.
End of story. No buts or ifs. Thanks for ending your own argument.
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On September 04 2010 15:48 ~Matthias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 15:39 threehundred wrote:On September 04 2010 15:37 ~Matthias wrote:
Asians dont have the body for physically intense sports.
So they watch games of the mind instead.
Here in the western world were much more physical, and aggressive. E-Sports will never be as big here as it is over across the sea, because there is much more "exciting" things to watch. lol, so im guessing baseball, and soccer aren't intense physical sports. generalizing is bad. can i generalize that in north american schools, students are taught to generalize and are thus ignorant? ^^ i also kind of forgot that karate, judo, taekwondo, muay thai were sorta of developed as fighting sports. how can that NOT be aggressive. Yeah. Sure those are aggressive. But whens the last time you saw two koreans beating each other into unconsciousness. Apparently thats what we find entertaining here. (MMA) Or football. Or boxing. Or hockey. Maybe I should have rephrased my original post, because looking back I see all of these as sports where its required to come into physical contact to play
Dude ... you mentioned MMA. In Japan before the Yakuza scandals Pride was way bigger than UFC is now.
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ahahah ...this SCII fanboys...
sorry but you really think because there is a stupid random tournament with 170k prize money this game is a success or just near 2 be?
they just throw money at SCII cause its new. now wait till the next big game is announced. and u will see the same shit that happened with Wc3 happening with SCII.
everyone is like "woh new game woh i lose interest in SCII" and bam the next game is out (lets say wc4) and everyone is throwing money at Wc4. and it will go on like that.
If you want SCII to become a success you need korea (right now) because no one else on this freaking world someone cares so much about esports if u get real salarys and not some stupid 2k or whatsoever. wher eu RLLY can make a good living out of it. so u can talk about the game being a success but not because some people throwing money at a game which is in a stupid hype mode.
if it goes on like that wait 3 4 5 yeras till Wc4 SC3 or whatsoever comes out and u will people throwing money at the new game and dont care anymore about SCII.
but go on keep thinking short term money throwing is a success. it will end like wc3 if it goes on like that.
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EPT
