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On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
TL;DR
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. In fact, if Sc2 and BW are to succeed as esports in the future, the conventional business model of video games; replace and replay, must be turned on it’s head. Esports must be lasting and growing institutions, not yearly flights of fancy. If we want to see the highest quality games, and the highest quality tournaments, then Sc2 and BW must be linked together as older brother to younger brother, [I]not[/I\ as father to son. If we fail to make this distinction in the coming months, then it will be too late for both games.
Instead, I’d love to see the anger that was directed at GOM for it’s idiotic paying stream system to be focused at the Blizzard and their Gretech puppets. If the fans of esports in general, whether Sc2 or BW don’t speak up and demand a deal on BW, then I fear the dream of Korean esports is doomed.
Wow, dude, I only read parts of your wall of text, but I have to agree as far as Korea is concerned. For the rest of us, SC2 is a chance for a fresh start and potential to grow outside of Korea. SC2 isn't dependent on Korea for success. BW was successful in Korea but not really anywhere else so I fail to see how people can come to that conclusion. I do agree that the target audience for SC2 is the same as BW, in Korea, and so pissing on the BW crowd really can't lead to good relations.
Or maybe Activizard realizes the BW scene is so entrenched there is no hope to move BW players to the shiny new SC2 so they just kill it?
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On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL).
I was watching the MLG stream and my father, who hates video games and doesn't understand them at all, walked in the room and sat behind me. I briefly explained Starcraft 2 to him again and he was entranced. He watched Socke v Drewbie, all three games. He thought it was really cool. My mother joined us for a while as well.
By your definition this makes SC2 a successful e-sport, right?
Not trolling, I'm just going through your logic.
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GomTV might be a bumbling idiot, but Kespa definitely exhibits corrupt qualities indicative of Korean business practices. And, no, implying that Korean business are corrupt, nepotism-focused affairs is not racist -- it's just true. Although we may "need" Korea for "quality" e-Sports, getting rid of Kespa and its ilk would be a blessing in any case.
I do get the impression that a lot of the backlash against SC2 is manufactured. To say that Blizzard is somehow inept at not dealing with Kespa is unfair and completely disregards how childish and greedy the negations have been -- not to mention... passive aggressive.
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On September 04 2010 13:38 Hikko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL). I was watching the MLG stream and my father, who hates video games and doesn't understand them at all, walked in the room and sat behind me. I briefly explained Starcraft 2 to him again and he was entranced. He watched Socke v Drewbie, all three games. He thought it was really cool. My mother joined us for a while as well. By your definition this makes SC2 a successful e-sport, right? Not trolling, I'm just going through your logic.
Are you trolling or something? Purposely misinterpreting people is very rude :/.
Its very evident hes talking about this scenario on a social scale, not "OH MY DAD LIKES IT".
I do get the impression that a lot of the backlash against SC2 is manufactured.
By whom? Kespa?
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It is merely the words of nostalgic brood war fans who believe that with the possible extinction of brood war will there be the lack of success for sc2. It is unreasonable to suggest such a thing. The sooner everyone can come to terms with the fact that Starcraft 2, while bearing the name of it's undeniable powerhouse of a predecessor, is NOT brood war.
Because of this, it must also be understood that there was never any intention to begin with for it to merely replace brood war. Made to be an e-sport? Yes. But clever clever blizzard, instead of targeting south Korea, whom would no doubt have mixed feelings about the introduction of a game that could be dangerous to their precious brood war, they targeted they're casual world wide fan base.
I also do not interpret this as a bad thing! Is the game easier to use? Absolutely. Does this mean the skill cap is significantly lower than BW? Most certainly not and it is far too early to pass judgement on this. I believe Starcraft 2 will develop to have an equally illustrious reputation as it's predecessor. Perhaps not in south Korea, but certainly collectively throughout the world, regardless If brood war dies or not.
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On September 04 2010 13:38 Hikko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL). I was watching the MLG stream and my father, who hates video games and doesn't understand them at all, walked in the room and sat behind me. I briefly explained Starcraft 2 to him again and he was entranced. He watched Socke v Drewbie, all three games. He thought it was really cool. My mother joined us for a while as well. By your definition this makes SC2 a successful e-sport, right? Not trolling, I'm just going through your logic.
No, he means that it has become socially acceptable to watch Broodwar like a sport. It's has less of a nerdy stigma around it in Korea than in Western Society. Besides, personal experiences used in an argument? Not very good. =/
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On September 04 2010 13:09 awesomoecalypse wrote:
You seem myopically focused on Korea.
Korea has been the bastion of the BW scene, its true.
But that has never translated to success outside of Korea. Prior to the launch of SC2, the number of Americans and Europeans who cared in any way about BW numbered in the tens of thousands--that is, probably less than can be found in the stands of any regular-season NFL game.
Nor has the BW scene seen significant growth in recent years.
The possibility that BW grows beyond what it is currently is essentially 0%. It is what it is--a niche sport that has realized its potential, if not in terms of skill than certainly in terms of commercial viability, in the only country that cares about it at all.
SC2 is already vastly more popular as a spectator sport outside of Korea than BW has ever been, or ever will be.
So why should it attempt to simply mimic BW? We know what BW-style "success" looks like--a decent-sized, highly dedicated fanbase from a single nation.
If SC2 is even one sixth as popular in the United States alone as BW is in Korea, it will have achieved as many fans as BW did, simply by virtue of the USA's larger population.
SC2 should not be aiming to be "the next BW". It should be aiming much higher than that--to be a successful e-sport worldwide. Success in Korea is one component of that, but it is far from the only one. If Korea never embraces SC2, but the rest of the world does, that in of itself will make SC2 bigger than BW has ever been.
You should really try to base your conclusions on facts instead of just making stuff up and your vision for this incredible sc2-world with the whole world watching is far out.
'But that has never translated to success outside of Korea. Prior to the launch of SC2, the number of Americans and Europeans who cared in any way about BW numbered in the tens of thousands--that is, probably less than can be found in the stands of any regular-season NFL game.'
So you're saying that only some tens of thousands care about one of the most popular computer games of all time, sounds slightly misinformed to me.
'So why should it attempt to simply mimic BW? We know what BW-style "success" looks like--a decent-sized, highly dedicated fanbase from a single nation.'
From a spectator perspective it's the most succesful computer game ever, any other game would do well to emulate that, your post is once again misinformed. There is also a large audience outside Korea.
'But that has never translated to success outside of Korea. Prior to the launch of SC2, the number of Americans and Europeans who cared in any way about BW numbered in the tens of thousands--that is, probably less than can be found in the stands of any regular-season NFL game.'
You are once again misinformed BW has a large player base worldwide, despite a sequal being out and despite it being 12-years old. If you think there is no fanbase outside Korea, you should watch the OGN-FINALS in Shanghai this month
Edit: you should look at how many viewers and reader tl.net had before sc2 and tell us once again that broodwar has little to no audience outside Korea.
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It's kind of funny. Much like we see players theroycraft about SC2 strats that don't really work in a real game, this topic is kinda getting esoteric with people predicting huge changes and movements in the E-sports arena without really knowing.
While I am a little sad to see the BW stuff die (I was never super into it, but I did see some AMAZING games.) I think you need to save what you can, and BW is starting to get beyond saving. It doesn't matter if you blame Blizz or Kespa, clearly neither intend to budge, and that will be that.
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'But that has never translated to success outside of Korea. Prior to the launch of SC2, the number of Americans and Europeans who cared in any way about BW numbered in the tens of thousands--that is, probably less than can be found in the stands of any regular-season NFL game.'
Specifically Americans and UK, two markets that have been veritably the most hostile towards strategy games, much less one twelve years old. Outside of that cluster, BW was, and still is, more popular then SC2. And the level of Esport success SC2 has had within that cluster is demonstrably less then most console shooters.
BW is starting to get beyond saving. It doesn't matter if you blame Blizz or Kespa, clearly neither intend to budge, and that will be that.
I don't understand why you would say BW isn't worth saving when it has a larger worldwise fanbase then SC2. Can we keep it alive for twenty years? Probably not. But 12 years is not anywhere near its time.
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I read through about 2/3rds of your write up and felt it was pretty biased to be honest then I just skipped down to the TL;DR.
There's one huge thing that you seem to be neglecting. The sums of prize money that has been built up for BW tournaments won't just vanish when it dies. As soon as sponsors realize that BW is a sinking ship(It is) they well reallocate their funds to a new focus and the most logical step is SC2. Players will follow the prize money and fans will follow the players. Business is all about moving forward and staying with trends. It would be just plain bad business sense for sponsors to stay in BW for much longer. It would be like tennis racket companies continuing to produce wooden rackets.
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There's one huge thing that you seem to be neglecting. The sums of prize money that has been built up for BW tournaments won't just vanish when it dies. As soon as sponsors realize that BW is a sinking ship(It is) they well reallocate their funds to a new focus and the most logical step is SC2. Players will follow the prize money and fans will follow the players. Business is all about moving forward and staying with trends. It would be just plain bad business sense for sponsors to stay in BW for much longer. It would be like tennis racket companies continuing to produce wooden rackets.
Perhaps if you actually read the entire fucking post, you'd have read his redress to that issue.
Basing a esports success on prizepools is stupid. For instance, Blizzcon tournaments have been one of the most lucrative tournaments in the world, held yearly, actually possessing a larger prizepool then MSL (40,000$ versus 34,000$ 1st place) and its like, yet it is barely a blip on the competitive radar, getting considerably less attention from fans both in and outside of Korea.
Games Workshop Tournaments and Wizard of the Cost Tournaments are among the most lucrative game tournaments outside of poker or other cardgames. Yet taken as a competitition, it attracts almost nobody outside of its niche fanbase.
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The simple fact is, the way I see it, Anyone that has ever wanted to follow BW has followed BW. The scene peaked, plateau'd and now is on the decline. There is no new market for BW.
Starcraft 2 on the other hand is a completely new game with new opportunity and new fans who are just being brought in to the Esports scene now, many with no prior RTS or even gaming knowledge.
Broodwar doesn't have to end, but trying to stop the progress of SC2 is just destroying the scene as a whole.
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On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Doubtless many readers on TL.net wouldn’t have a problem with that. Those of you who came to this site in anticipation of Sc2’s beta and launch, those of you who had to sit through people whining about BW being the harder game or Sc2 being a colossal disappointment, surely see the imminent death of the BW scene as a good thing. BW’s passing is commonly seen as the natural order of things, just as Fifa ‘08 is replaced by Fifa ‘09, and then subsequent versions of the game. Furthermore, among those familiar with the BW scene, or those familiar with generations of Blizzard games, there is a predisposition to take the side of Blizzard/Gretech against Kespa. While Blizzard’s ability to design quality games has become a given, Kespa is an organization who has a habit of commonly making silly petty mistakes. Their game-time decisions always invite controversy, and their handling of the networks and players and teams has often been suspect.
That is a poor assumption to make. Even among the people that like SC2 more than BW, there is no "predisposition" to take the side of Blizzard because even the SC2 fans recognize the utter stupidity Blizzard has shown in Starcraft 2's release, namely things like no Chat Channels, no Cross-Realm Play, and no LAN. Most SC2 fans realize that Blizzard, at the very least, could be acting as stupidly as Kespa has/is.
On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
So wait, Blizzard and Gretech are ones that are drowning/dying now? I can see you were trying to be dramatic here, but I think you have the roles reversed. Presently Blizzard and Gretch are doing well, it's Kespa that faces dying and are the ones reaching for help.
Other than those spots, I think it was a pretty good post. You stated a lot of facts, but I don't think your arguments quite convinced me that Starcraft 2 would fail if Brood War dies. Of course I don't want Brood War to die, I'm a huge fan, but I think your argument relies too much on assumptions.
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So wait, Blizzard and Gretech are ones that are drowning/dying now? I can see you were trying to be dramatic here, but I think you have the roles reversed. Presently Blizzard and Gretch are doing well, it's Kespa that faces dying and are the ones reaching for help.
Other than those spots, I think it was a pretty good post. You stated a lot of facts, but I don't think your arguments quite convinced me that Starcraft 2 would fail if Brood War dies. Of course I don't want Brood War to die, I'm a huge fan, but I think your argument relies too much on assumptions.
Specifically on the venue of Korea, Starcraft 2 has had remarkably underwhelming performance in Korea, despite being a free game.
Blizzard has shown in Starcraft 2's release, namely things like no Chat Channels, no Cross-Realm Play, and no LAN. Most SC2 fans realize that Blizzard, at the very least, could be acting as stupidly as Kespa has/is.
The only people I've ever seen support Kespa over Blizzard are longtime Brood War fans. New players will, 99.9% of the time, prefer Blizzard over Kespa, on nothing but familiarity alone.
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On September 04 2010 13:50 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
There's one huge thing that you seem to be neglecting. The sums of prize money that has been built up for BW tournaments won't just vanish when it dies. As soon as sponsors realize that BW is a sinking ship(It is) they well reallocate their funds to a new focus and the most logical step is SC2. Players will follow the prize money and fans will follow the players. Business is all about moving forward and staying with trends. It would be just plain bad business sense for sponsors to stay in BW for much longer. It would be like tennis racket companies continuing to produce wooden rackets.
Perhaps if you actually read the entire fucking post, you'd have read his redress to that issue.
You're a Dbag. I actually did go back and read the rest of it to look for this redress and I didn't see what you were referring to. If you're talking about the part where he talked about how if it died off in 10 years that would be horrible for e-sports then I look at that as bad logic.
The technological advancements that are made on a yearly basis let alone 10 years in the gaming industry are more than enough for games to blow their predecessors out of the water. As I said in my original post; continuing to push BW would be like continuing to push tennis with wooden rackets. Sure, it was very entertaining, even with wooden rackets, but new technology and developments continued to push it forward. I know my input on this may seem like a bit of a stretch but you have to look at it like RTS is the "Game" and SC2 and BW are the "Ball".
Also I'm not the only one who felt that this article was very biased and based on opinions rather than facts like a good article should be.
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On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
(...)
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
(...)
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded.
This perfectly sums up what I was thinking reading the post.
I mean I personally don't want BW scene to die, why would I? But I cannot see any reason why SC2's success lies in BW success. SC2 success is on a worldwide scale, so even if it does horrible in korea, it can still do well. I mean husky and hdh have been kicking ass on youtube, it doesn't require fancy jackets, cute girls, raised platform to make it a hit, with big enough potential of audience, the internet can even do better.
Edit: The fanbase of BW as far as I can tell isn't so great, even though a lot of people bought it 12 years ago. I mean I loved sc1 and bw 12 years ago, I played it way to much back then, then I moved on. Over the past years I've come back to BW at stuff like lans and felt it almost unplayable(due to being spoiled by such things as wc3). Am I in the "huge fanbase" even if I have hardly played the game last 10 years?
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Ah right, this is the SC2 forum. Of course they want BW dead lol.
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On September 04 2010 13:55 Half wrote:
Specifically on the venue of Korea, Starcraft 2 has had remarkably underwhelming performance in Korea, despite being a free game.
The least you could do is wait until opening day of the GSL is over before making a judgement like this. -_-
On September 04 2010 13:55 Half wrote:
New players will, 99.9% of the time, prefer Blizzard over Kespa, on nothing but familiarity alone.
Familiarity makes it even more one-sided.. KeSPA has killed GOM already once, handled the match-fixing scandal poorly, attempted to sell off broadcasting rights that they don't have, and invented new retarded rules every chance they got. What has KeSPA done right, exactly?
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I like your point in that having a successful eSports means longevity and timelessness - 10 years should not be taken as longevity and timelessness, and if BW dies then it would have failed to succeed and that moreoever SC2 will be doomed in the long run. The only way to get around this is to see SC2 as an updated version of BW... Which isn't going to happen. I see your logic, but I hope SC2 will become the standard eSport throughout the world for the next 20, 30, 100 years if possibile.
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On September 04 2010 14:06 Amnesia wrote:
Ah right, this is the SC2 forum. Of course they want BW dead lol.
I wouldn't say that I want BW dead. I'm just of the opinion that it's vastly out dated and it's only a matter of time before the focus of e-sports(In both Korea and globally) shifts to a newer technology SC2 or otherwise.
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EPT
