EPTOn September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote: BW is the best selling PC game on earth.
No. Best selling PC game on earth is The Sims.
Gretech, Kespa, and Why Sc2 Fans Should Care - Page 10
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
No. Best selling PC game on earth is The Sims. | ||
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SlothOnPCP
193 Posts
On September 05 2010 03:04 Apolo wrote: No. Best selling PC game on earth is The Sims. You mean The Sims series, which is like 44 products. | ||
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latan
740 Posts
the transition from a spectator point of view from BW to SC2 is smooth. gameplaywise too. i understand now why blizzard didn't even try to innovate with the game. | ||
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freshiie22
Canada132 Posts
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latan
740 Posts
On September 04 2010 14:49 Saracen wrote: Ok, sorry if this comes off as inflammatory because the first page or two of replies has really pissed me off. To those of you jumping in and saying "Oh SC2 is a new game. BW is old, SC2 is new. BW is Korean, SC2 is global. BW is dying, SC2 has potential." You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You really don't. Every time you say "SC2 doesn't need Korea, it has the rest of the world! SC2 has achieved more greatness than BW ever has, just look at HD and Husky compared to nevake and Jon747!" you just make yourself look like an idiot. It's not about Youtube viewers. It's not about random tournaments like ESL/MLG. There's a difference between the little notion you have in your head of "eSports" and what eSports actually is and actually could be. eSports isn't just "oh, look it's SC2 in WCG and hey MLG is sponsoring SC2 as well, SC2 is doing great!" It's not about making a video game just another part of the video game industry, like SSB, WC3, DotA, WoW. It's about LONGEVITY. It's about building a fucking CULTURE. So you have your little SC2 "eSports" for what, two years? Three years? Then the next new awesome video game comes out and everyone jumps on the new bandwagon? What makes Starcraft stand out from all the others? What contributes to its longevity? No, it's not the fact that Blizzard made it. No, it's not the fact that it's a well-designed game. It's the fucking CULTURE. You CAN'T just isolate Korea and look at the rest of the world when it comes to eSports. Because Korea IS fucking eSports. If you keep looking at SC2 in this way, despite all the hard work the members of the community put in, including HD, Husky, and Day9, SC2 will just end up as another "good" game that will quickly be replaced by the next "big" thing. this post need violin music as background. what a romantic view of the thing. I recommend you step out of whatever paradigm you're standing and watch it with outside eyes. not sure what makes you think eSports is more than any other competitive scene. Sports (without the e) is not about the culture, just to set an example. esports to you may be all that but you and all who think like you are but a small part of it. beautiful as your vision may be it is certainly very biased. i'm not trying to be confrontational or trying to troll, i'm just sharing the toughts of an outsider. | ||
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keV.
United States3214 Posts
On September 04 2010 14:49 Saracen wrote: Ok, sorry if this comes off as inflammatory because the first page or two of replies has really pissed me off. To those of you jumping in and saying "Oh SC2 is a new game. BW is old, SC2 is new. BW is Korean, SC2 is global. BW is dying, SC2 has potential." You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You really don't. Every time you say "SC2 doesn't need Korea, it has the rest of the world! SC2 has achieved more greatness than BW ever has, just look at HD and Husky compared to nevake and Jon747!" you just make yourself look like an idiot. It's not about Youtube viewers. It's not about random tournaments like ESL/MLG. There's a difference between the little notion you have in your head of "eSports" and what eSports actually is and actually could be. eSports isn't just "oh, look it's SC2 in WCG and hey MLG is sponsoring SC2 as well, SC2 is doing great!" It's not about making a video game just another part of the video game industry, like SSB, WC3, DotA, WoW. It's about LONGEVITY. It's about building a fucking CULTURE. So you have your little SC2 "eSports" for what, two years? Three years? Then the next new awesome video game comes out and everyone jumps on the new bandwagon? What makes Starcraft stand out from all the others? What contributes to its longevity? No, it's not the fact that Blizzard made it. No, it's not the fact that it's a well-designed game. It's the fucking CULTURE. You CAN'T just isolate Korea and look at the rest of the world when it comes to eSports. Because Korea IS fucking eSports. If you keep looking at SC2 in this way, despite all the hard work the members of the community put in, including HD, Husky, and Day9, SC2 will just end up as another "good" game that will quickly be replaced by the next "big" thing. I'm not going to address your opinion of why eSports is successful, I am going to tell you that your assumptions on foreign eSports are completely wrong. If every non-Korean gaming culture actually did just move on after 2 years. How come people are still playing DotA? How come everyone didn't jump ship to CS:Source from 1.6? Give some credit to the foreign competitive players and eSport fans... If anything they are dedicated. I've said this before, but I'm sick of the "KeSPA/Korean E-sports is as good as it gets" mantra around here. I don't want BW to die at all, but whether or not it does; Ignoring or undermining the momentum that foreign SC2 has is just blatantly retarded if you know your foreign eSport history. | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
To address some points people have made: On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I want to restate what I mean by success, and what I think this community has expected Sc2 to achieve since its announcement. Sc2 has already become phenomenally successful by most measures, however, TL & community are dedicated to taking Sc2 further as a true esport. Sc2 has the potential to have a well-watched professional league(s) and well-played star players. Obviously, I don't see that happening at this rate. Here's my logic, in steps; 1: BW became the success that it was because of a highly unique set of circumstances, much of which is explained by MrHoon here. 2: It is impossible for Sc2 to replicate these circumstances, the times are simply different. 3: However, if Sc2 could find and use different unique advantages, it could be equally successful, or quite possibly even more so. 4: Sc2's chief advantage is its position in the starcraft franchise. 5: However, this advantage is not being utilized. 6: Thus, Sc2 has no reasonable path to success. For points 4 and 5 I attempted to identify the advantages that Sc2 had, and how the destruction of the BW scene will render each of these advantages into disadvantages. On September 04 2010 13:09 awesomoecalypse wrote: You seem myopically focused on Korea. Considering the logistics and cultural differences between regions in the US, or the Eurozone, I simply do not believe that a popular and cohesive PC game league is viable in those regions. Only in China could I see a similar situation as Korea appear. Whether or not the US or Europe will have more players than BW did is irrelevant, there simply isn't the ability to create the kind of esports league that Korea has developed. When I say esports, I don't mean a robust series of online tournaments, and WCG every year. Any old game can get to that level. I mean an actual sporting league. If you want the highest quality play, and the longest focused attention, some sort of central league is a must. In Korea, where it already exists, I see it as insanely reckless and stupid to tear down the old, popular game in order to build the new one from scratch. A successful esport world-wide is a pipe dream, and seems implausible if the world's most enthusiastic gaming country isn't on board. But for one second, lets assume it was possible. Sending the message that video game leagues are only good for ten or less years, means the industry could never hope for any kind of long term sponsorship. And the well of new players would likely dry up around the seventh year, simply because the game's decline would be assumed to be imminent. On September 04 2010 13:10 Vokasak wrote: I don't see Blizzard asking for what's rightfully theirs as "killing off BW". While I don't think that Blizzard is being particularly fair in this situation, that's hardly the point. I don't mean to argue that Blizzard/Gretech is wrong, merely that the course of action they're taking is stupid and self-defeating. Whether or not they have a right to terminate the BW scene is not the issue, it's whether or not it's smart for them to do so, and I argue that it is not. I'm trying to present an argument that's practical, not necessarily sentimental. On September 04 2010 13:16 Redmark wrote:I would be very dubious of any claims that a greater proportion of the SC2 fanbase wants BW to die than BW supporters want SC2 to die. We want e-sports, period. It's just that SC2 looks more promising than BW ever was, and no amount of fear-mongering will change that. I don't believe we need to choose between BW and Sc2. This is my entire point. I believe that both, if given the chance, could co-exist. And if they didn't, then the market would decide. But I believe that as fans, the choice isn't between BW and Sc2, it's between a professional scene for both, or a professional scene for neither. *** Let me mention that while I am a BW fan initially, I don't harbor any real ill will towards the game. I played the beta, and I will likely buy a copy when I get more money or the price goes down.But I simply don't think Sc2 can become a true esport without BW. And I don't think BW can survive without Sc2 fans helping the cause. | ||
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GagnarTheUnruly
United States655 Posts
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.mymym.com/gfx/daum-osl-07-5.jpg) of audience, I will concede that it doesn't ride off the coattails of SC1's success or that it will attain the longevity as a spectator sport as BW. | ||
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Alexstrasas
302 Posts
As usual blind fanboyism shows how peoples judgement gets impaired, even with all the facts on the table ppl will still rage no matter what. Its widely known what went down between Kespa and Blizzard, why the fuck would Blizzard give a shit about Kespa right now? Does this makes sense at all? It was pretty obvious that something like this would happen a long time ago, Kespa didnt showed any signs of caring at all, and now they are going to get shut down and thats all. Its not Blizzard fault that Kespa = Scbw in Korea. On September 05 2010 06:08 GagnarTheUnruly wrote: I think my major point of contention is #2 on your list. SC2 doesn't need to replicate the circumstances that led to the rise of BW, because the infrastructure for competitive starcraft gaming in Korea is already present. Television studios exist, channels exist, announcers exist, teams exist, and more importantly, players and fans exist. If it was suddenly announced that the next series would be played on SC2 instead of BW, the players would have some work to do but everyone would keep watching and it would be business-as-usual for the Korean pro starcraft scene after a relatively short period of time. I know it's not really that simple, but the fact of the matter is that there is already a lot in place for SC2 to take over BW as an esport in Korea. I think that as top players move into SC2, they will bring fan interest with them, and sponsors will follow. In my opinion, what needs to happen, unfortunate as it may be for pro BW, is to get the players off the sinking ship as fast as possible and into SC2 before the infrastructure breaks down too much. Agree 100% with this. | ||
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BlueSorc
United Kingdom119 Posts
What is so interesting/frustrating about this whole shebang is that a very convincing narrative can be woven by both sides. If I took a pool of completely neutral test subjects, unfamiliar with anything to do with e-sports, and showed them both a pro-kespa thread and a pro-gom thread, I doubt there would be a significant trend towards either side. For my own part, I am slightly more sympathetic towards GOM. I think it is unfair to characterise GOM as "Blizzard's puppet" and I don't believe anybody at GOM wants to see the death of Brood War. I actually believe SC2's "success" as an e-sport will live and die by itself, independent of the the survival of Brood War. The one element of this entire argument that does irritate me is its characterisation by many posters as this being a conflict between old school Starcraft players who "understand" and the new generation of Starcraft 2 players, who are being presented, largely, as ignorant and naive WoW converts. I spent many happy years playing Starcraft 1 and have observed the korean pro-league scene, on and off, since boxer. With Starcraft 2, I've made a big push to get some of my good friends interested and involved in the game. By and large, its working, but the hostile attitude presented towards them by certain segments of the community makes it harder; they feel like they're in the deep end and that they aren't welcome there. | ||
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
On September 04 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: All this stuff about wc3-pros going over to sc2 is kinda rubbish, there are virtually no pros in wc3. SC2 is not as spectator friendly as SC1, so you thinking that breaking down the sc1 will help sc2 flurish is completely incorrect. WC3 was a kind of follow up to broodwar just like sc2 and look at where that game is now competetively. The scene is completely dead, in total it hasn't even been as popular as mods made for it, like DOTA. SC-2 will be great if Blizzard work hard at improving the game experience etc., but the problem is that they're too often too busy stuffing their pockets with money. I thought the OP's post made more sense than your did and didn't draw his conclusions as loosely. Excuse me? For your information. There exists Wc3 pros (Moon having one of the highest salaries in the E-sport world), Wc3 is NOT dead, nor is its community. You are completely misinformed. Reply to this if you want evidence for my claims, and I will provide you links | ||
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TheAngelofDeath
United States2033 Posts
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Bhaalgorn
Slovenia214 Posts
The BW scene is roughly as beneficial as it is harmful to the emerging SC2 scene. On one hand you get people who are familiar with the game and a stronger infrastructure. On the other you have competition which eats away at the viewers. For all intents and purposes the BW scene is dead to Blizzard, only the Korean one matters. Looking at the big prize pools of the GSL tournament and Blizzards actual support of SC2 as an e-sport it is obvious they and their Korean partners are opting for the carrot strategy first. Lure progamers in with big prize pools, hoping their skill will generate enough viewers to eventually overtake the BW scene. Thus a smooth transition is possible and no one can say how Blizzard killed the BW scene, they would have merely replaced it. Obviously, failure is another option, but so what? That does not mean that it cannot succeed in western countries with proper support. Going by the logic that it can only be successful in the world if it's successful in Korea is flawed. That would mean that BW should be alive and healthy everywhere right now, but we all know that's not the case. A fairly good example is the popularity of MMOs today. Before WoW they were hardly mainstream, but look at the MMO market today. Th same might happen to the RTS genre. Currently it's taken the back seat to FPS and RPG games. But with a new,well made game supported by competent developers it could possibly recreate the same thing WoW managed years ago. The last and quite frankly the worst option is that SC2 fails as an e-sport completely and in the process kills of the BW scene as well. The world would lose 12 years of e-sport progression. I for one wouldn't mind if both games could co-exist, but I honestly don't see it happening. Sure, BW will stick around for a while, but it will either be replaced by SC2 or forced out by Blizzard. Yes, you might rage on the forums, like you did about no LAN, no cross realm play and no chat channels, but in the end most of you still bought it(since you're posting the in SC2 forum section). P.S.: I apologize if this seems like a bunch of nonsense (as I'm sure some will point out), but I have a difficult time expressing what I feel and I've started from scratch on this post 3 times. | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote: New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL). SC2 fans who have no experience with Broodwar have a misguided impression that having a bunch of big money tournaments and a live event with people on ustream equals an instant Esport hit. But every year large money prize pools are dished out for many mediocre games, sponsored mainly by video card and other gaming gear related companies, and then the game is forgotten a year or two later by the big donors. The success of an esport, as TreeHugger has correctly identified, is defined by sustainability. This. Money and tournaments is not an Esport. Social acceptance is. BW created that in Korea. Modeling SC2 off of Korea to become something as accepted as Football would be great. And why was BW able to do what it did? Stability. Let BW slowly die to a developing SC2 to give SC2 a sense of stability and let it develop a Pro-League, not a conglomeration of tournaments for me and my nerd friends to watch. I want to be able to watch it with my girlfriend who is not a gamer. That's success. SC2 is not a success yet. | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On September 05 2010 07:48 Bhaalgorn wrote: Looking at the big prize pools of the GSL tournament and Blizzards actual support of SC2 as an e-sport it is obvious they and their Korean partners are opting for the carrot strategy first. Lure progamers in with big prize pools, hoping their skill will generate enough viewers to eventually overtake the BW scene. Thus a smooth transition is possible and no one can say how Blizzard killed the BW scene, they would have merely replaced it. No, the controversy is that they are NOT doing that kind of transition. Rather, they are saying "Nope, you cannot play your game anymore or have your tournaments. It's illegal." They are opting for the 1 base all in push. They should just be luring BW players with money while they allow their leagues to keep playing, but from the looks of it they aren't going to. They are going to use the law and IP rights to forcibly shut down BW. That's what's up. | ||
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Teddyman
Finland362 Posts
On September 05 2010 08:09 rackdude wrote: This. Money and tournaments is not an Esport. Social acceptance is. BW created that in Korea. Modeling SC2 off of Korea to become something as accepted as Football would be great. And why was BW able to do what it did? Stability. Let BW slowly die to a developing SC2 to give SC2 a sense of stability and let it develop a Pro-League, not a conglomeration of tournaments for me and my nerd friends to watch. I want to be able to watch it with my girlfriend who is not a gamer. That's success. SC2 is not a success yet. You're exaggerating how socially accepted gaming is in Korea. If you read progamer interviews, most of them say their parents were opposed to that lifestyle. Of course their parents eventually gave up since they became progamers, but it hints that many kids were denied the chance. All in all it seems the older generation still thinks that games are a waste of time. The country is also fighting increasing internet addiction. Recently we heard news that the government would be blocking access to 19 popular online games for 6 hours a night for underage players. That doesn't sound very much like acceptance to me. They should just be luring BW players with money while they allow their leagues to keep playing, but from the looks of it they aren't going to. They are going to use the law and IP rights to forcibly shut down BW. You can't really present this as a fact when the only information pointing to that comes from unnamed KeSPA officials commenting on a negotiation that's supposed to be under NDA. | ||
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mavfin
United States52 Posts
On September 05 2010 08:18 rackdude wrote: No, the controversy is that they are NOT doing that kind of transition. Rather, they are saying "Nope, you cannot play your game anymore or have your tournaments. It's illegal." They are opting for the 1 base all in push. They should just be luring BW players with money while they allow their leagues to keep playing, but from the looks of it they aren't going to. They are going to use the law and IP rights to forcibly shut down BW. That's what's up. Blizzard is protecting their own IP now. It is theirs to sell rights to, not Kespa's. If you think Blizzard's wrong to assert their rights to the SC franchise, then you're way out in left field. They created the game. Kespa helped create the e-sport, but, Kespa overstepped when they started charging money to networks to show things based on Blizzard's product. Now they have to pay the piper, and they don't want to negotiate with Blizzard. They want to have it their way, and no other way. So, Blizzard has threatened to pull the plug. That's Blizzard's prerogative. The current BW maneuvering is not about Blizzard killing an e-sport. It's about reining in a company/organization that was selling rights to something they never owned -- Kespa. I guess if you're Korean, that makes Blizzard an evil corporation, but that's too bad. If Kespa had created the game, they could do whatever they wanted. Maybe they should create their own wonderful Korean RTS to play if SC2 is so bad, according to many of you. Then they could lawfully sell the rights to it for a change. As far as Kespa not allowing the BW pros to play SC2 at all, that's between them and said progamers and the contracts. The progamers have to make their own choices. However, selling rights to view SC1 is not Kespa's prerogative. Just tired of seeing this crap that Blizzard is evil for protecting their own intellectual property rights. | ||
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Alexstrasas
302 Posts
On September 05 2010 08:18 rackdude wrote: No, the controversy is that they are NOT doing that kind of transition. Rather, they are saying "Nope, you cannot play your game anymore or have your tournaments. It's illegal." They are opting for the 1 base all in push. They should just be luring BW players with money while they allow their leagues to keep playing, but from the looks of it they aren't going to. They are going to use the law and IP rights to forcibly shut down BW. That's what's up. You are complelty missing the point, there is just no way that Blizzard would be negotiating with Kespa at this point. From a practical point of view, Kespa not allowing pros to play SC2 makes the "luring with tournament money" kinda obsolete, because a steady pay check is always better. | ||
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GagnarTheUnruly
United States655 Posts
1) give up on SC2 as a pro esport in Korea 2) play hard ball with KeSPA They (understandably, to me), chose option 2. In that case, the best, most efficient course of action for Blizzard was to hit KeSPA with their best weapon -- the law. If they wage a legal battle they don't have to worry about a ratings battle, and they can try to salvage players and teams out of the fallout when KeSPA finally goes bust, releasing its contracts. That's why Blizzard is investing so much in tournaments -- they want to make a green pasture for ex-BW pros, to encourage them to stay in esports by playing SC2. If the players switch, they'll bring their fans and they'll pick up new ones, and Blizzard will have an easy time hooking up with sponsors and getting televised leagues and tournaments set up. | ||
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