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On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea.
You're delusional if you think SC2 is going to succeed outside of Korea as a televised eSport.
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On September 04 2010 18:30 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 04 2010 17:55 raga4ka wrote:
You people don't get what e - sports is ....
When your country's airport supports a video game by funding the bigest video game tournament ever that is e - sports . They fucking take the progamers by plane to which ever point of the world they want the tournament to be in . This is what helps popularize e - sports world wide .
When companies like Samsung , Wemade , CJ media , Hanbit , Hwaseung , STX , and others some of which are far bigger companies then Blizzard or Gretech will ever get sponsors a team of progamers that is e - sports .
Kespa is practically made from representatives of this companies .
When your country's military service supports a video game now that is e - sports . You really shouldnt say they wont ever get sponsors for the game. Intel already sponsored one tournament, and the game was brand new. A year down the line if the game is still going moderately strong I can see more supporting it. Intel sponsors all kinds of stuff that has no future, as do video card companies. In the future, non-gaming sponsors would indicate broad appeal... gaming sponsors, not so much.
You realize that sponsors for BW didnt even start until several years into the game? Right?
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On September 04 2010 18:30 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea. You're delusional if you think SC2 is going to succeed outside of Korea as a televised eSport.
would you consider what MLG has done with Halo 3 success?
or do you only define KeSPA as a success?
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On September 04 2010 17:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:05 Grond wrote:
I don't see anybody defining what they mean by success. SC 2 may be sucessful if you define it as having some small tournaments that are watched by.some people online. If you define successful as starting where BW left off and growing beyond that then no they can't be successful without Korea. If they don't do a 180 in their negotiations with Kespa then SC 2 will not be successful in Korea. Blizzard may not like it and you may not like it but Kespa will be able to keep SC 2 from becoming a successful e-sport in Korea. Why can SC2 not be successful without korea? Counterstrike is quite successful without korea. Quake has been quite successful without korea. So far, considering SC2 is still extremely new, I would say it is quite successful. Right now, we are entering an era in which gaming can actually achieve a higher status thanks to the internet. What limited foreign success of games before was that you had no way to watch most matches. Now that there are a lot of streams (and in the case of SC2, lots of casters), more people can watch it and see it. It is already more global than anything before. I mean, just look at the HDH invitational. 230k views for the beta tournament. Flash vs jaedong in may (around the same time as the HDH) 70k. Flash vs jaedong from january, 112k. More than 20k people watched the king of the beta hill tournament LIVE at midnight or way later.
Like I said if your going to define people watching streams on the internet as success then SC 2 can be successful. Imo that is far below what they should be aiming for. When the winner of the world's largest tournament gets $5000 that is not successful.
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On September 04 2010 18:44 SevenAteNine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:30 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea. You're delusional if you think SC2 is going to succeed outside of Korea as a televised eSport. would you consider what MLG has done with Halo 3 success? or do you only define KeSPA as a success?
No i wouldn't consider it a success it's a niche on the level of Magic The Gathering tournaments.
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On September 04 2010 18:44 SevenAteNine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:30 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea. You're delusional if you think SC2 is going to succeed outside of Korea as a televised eSport. would you consider what MLG has done with Halo 3 success? or do you only define KeSPA as a success?
Edit: no people who watch SCBW atm probably didnt even see Boxer play live during his prime so ofcorse they dont know the history of the sport
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On September 04 2010 18:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:25 sashkata wrote:On September 04 2010 18:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:Tell me how many years or decades will it take for Starcraft 2 to become this big ? I'm not talking about a 2 - 10k cash tournament somewhere or a far bigger cash tournament thrown by a company that wants a piece of Korean's e -sports success . Umm.... the GSL league already has a bigger cash tournament. This month's tournament is $85k, and supposedly the end of year tournament for 2011 will supposedly be $1,000,000. That is in US dollars (assuming the translator correctly adjusted). Way to miss the point. I just dont see how SC2 is not already nearing global popularity on the scale of BW. At this point it isnt as popular for a single country (which may change since the pro season is over for now), but why are you all so focused on a single country? I mean... look at it from this PoV: In terms of people interested in watching the games, it has surpassed BW. In terms of prize pool tournaments/leagues, we already have a league offering substantial prize money. I think in 2011 that will be the largest video game prize ever. So, how are you all saying that SC2 isnt big? How are you to say it wont be big in korea? Your reasoning makes no sense.
Well my biggest reasoning is that broodwar is watched by people who have never played a video game in their life . Just like someone watches snooker or other sports for entertainment , even thought they've never played them . Right now people who watch SC2 are 99% people who play or want to play SC 2 , and i don't see that changing if blizzard doesn't start focusing more on the game then on tournaments to promote it , because it has issues that don't appeal as a spectators sport .
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On September 04 2010 18:46 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:44 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 04 2010 18:30 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea. You're delusional if you think SC2 is going to succeed outside of Korea as a televised eSport. would you consider what MLG has done with Halo 3 success? or do you only define KeSPA as a success? No i wouldn't consider it a success it's a niche on the level of Magic The Gathering tournaments.
even inside Korea SCBW is still a niche
its only popular due to the TV stations that exist inside Korea
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A lot of people seem to be misunderstanding the OP.
The point is that if you kill off BW before SC2 has become truly established as an e-sport in the same vein as BW (i.e. a sport where people gladly take their kids and where the star players are actually known to the public), then you're essentially going to have to start the development of SC2 from the same starting point that BW had, i.e. from absolute scratch. Killing off BW doesn't mean that everyone in Korea will suddenly shift to SC2. And considering that BW's original growth was a result of a lot of different factors which will not be repeated again, it's not necessarily clear that SC2 will make it.
Of course, SC2 has other benefits were it to start from scratch, but it would still be an uphill struggle. TC argues that it probably wouldn't make it...I don't know about that, it might make it anyway, but if it doesn't then that'd be the end of e-sports for the foreseeable future.
Basically, SC2 might make it all by itself, but it will be a hell of a lot easier if BW were there to facilitate its growth.
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On September 04 2010 18:48 SevenAteNine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:46 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 04 2010 18:44 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 04 2010 18:30 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea. You're delusional if you think SC2 is going to succeed outside of Korea as a televised eSport. would you consider what MLG has done with Halo 3 success? or do you only define KeSPA as a success? No i wouldn't consider it a success it's a niche on the level of Magic The Gathering tournaments. even inside Korea SCBW is still a niche its only popular due to the TV stations that exist inside Korea
Yeah it is a niche i agree, but it's a niche that still gets 30,000 people showing up for the proleague finals. It's just culture differences really, i mean remember recently Bisu/Boxer presenting an award at some music related show. Imagine it happening anywhere else...
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On September 04 2010 18:48 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 04 2010 18:25 sashkata wrote:On September 04 2010 18:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:Tell me how many years or decades will it take for Starcraft 2 to become this big ? I'm not talking about a 2 - 10k cash tournament somewhere or a far bigger cash tournament thrown by a company that wants a piece of Korean's e -sports success . Umm.... the GSL league already has a bigger cash tournament. This month's tournament is $85k, and supposedly the end of year tournament for 2011 will supposedly be $1,000,000. That is in US dollars (assuming the translator correctly adjusted). Way to miss the point. I just dont see how SC2 is not already nearing global popularity on the scale of BW. At this point it isnt as popular for a single country (which may change since the pro season is over for now), but why are you all so focused on a single country? I mean... look at it from this PoV: In terms of people interested in watching the games, it has surpassed BW. In terms of prize pool tournaments/leagues, we already have a league offering substantial prize money. I think in 2011 that will be the largest video game prize ever. So, how are you all saying that SC2 isnt big? How are you to say it wont be big in korea? Your reasoning makes no sense. Well my biggest reasoning is that broodwar is watched by people who have never played a video game in their life . Just like someone watches snooker or other sports for fun , even thought they've never played them . Right now people who watch SC2 are 99% people who play or want to play SC 2 , and i don't see that changing if blizzard doesn't start focusing more on the game then on tournaments to promote it , because it has issues that don't appeal as a spectators sport .
Yeah exactly. For example if you had an SC2 proleague or starleagues running after or before BW schedule, that would be a good way of complimenting the two. But unfortunately Blizzard seems determined to split it completely.
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On September 04 2010 18:55 infinity2k9 wrote:
But unfortunately Blizzard seems determined to split it completely.
Demanding fair compensation for use of their product is NOT running BW out of business. KeSPA are just refusing to budge and would rather burn BW esports to the ground than have to give up some of their cocaine and hot-tub money. It baffles me how anyone could try and pin BW's demise on Blizzard when KeSPA has been ruining BW for years all by itself with nobody else's help. This is just the next (and possibly last) in a long line of KeSPA fuck-ups.
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On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
(...)
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
(...)
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded. Why would SC2 fare better with BW alive? Would the audience continue watching BW, migrate to SC2, or enjoy both? Why is only Korea relevant to the development of e-Sports? What about the storm clouds converging over the BW scene, with coaches resigning/being fired, teams attempting to disband and match-fixing scandals? Does this not merit to consider the possibility that the BW scene is rotting from within? What about the players and commentators who've made a smooth transition to the SC2 scene- more top-level foreigners than you can count, Tester, JulyZerg, Day[9], and the rise of new commentators in HD and Husky among others? What about the SC2 teams and training houses already setting up shop in Korea? Why should the SC2 fans care that the BW scene is hemorrhaging talent, if that talent is migrating straight to SC2? What about all the WC3 pros who are migrating to SC2, and from other strategy games as well- like fan-favorite TLO coming from having played Supreme Commander? Your post is made from a BW perspective. You don't seem to be in touch with the SC2 scene- or if you are, you don't reflect that in your post. All in all, I completely disagree with your conclusions; I see no reason why SC2 cannot succeed if BW dies.
Excellent post. I'm glad I didn't have to write up something similar.
No matter how well or confidently written, your conclusions are unfounded.
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On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. In fact, if Sc2 and BW are to succeed as esports in the future, the conventional business model of video games; replace and replay, must be turned on it’s head. Esports must be lasting and growing institutions, not yearly flights of fancy. If we want to see the highest quality games, and the highest quality tournaments, then Sc2 and BW must be linked together as older brother to younger brother, [I]not[/I\ as father to son. If we fail to make this distinction in the coming months, then it will be too late for both games.
Instead, I’d love to see the anger that was directed at GOM for it’s idiotic paying stream system to be focused at the Blizzard and their Gretech puppets. If the fans of esports in general, whether Sc2 or BW don’t speak up and demand a deal on BW, then I fear the dream of Korean esports is doomed.
On September 04 2010 12:16 FireBlast! wrote:
Thank you for echoing my thoughts with such lucidity and eloquence.
My thoughts exactly. Tree Hugger, this is why I did not buy Sc2 - out of protest of how Blizzard through Gretech is killing Korean eSports in the name of profit margin. Was I wrong to not buy it?
I can't believe the people here at TL have forgotten what this site has been about for so long - and how Blizzard is so readily just killing all that. Professional BW - teams, corporate sponsors, players, the NaDas, Saviors, Jaedongs and Flashes, the articles, the reviews, previews, and culture around professional BW.
People here barely even mention that Blizzard is massacring this culture that we've help to build up and appreciate... what the? Now I'm glad for TL to get attention. I like Idra, Nazgul, TLO, and Team TL. What I don't like is the turning away from said facts above.
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On September 04 2010 19:14 bias- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. In fact, if Sc2 and BW are to succeed as esports in the future, the conventional business model of video games; replace and replay, must be turned on it’s head. Esports must be lasting and growing institutions, not yearly flights of fancy. If we want to see the highest quality games, and the highest quality tournaments, then Sc2 and BW must be linked together as older brother to younger brother, [I]not[/I\ as father to son. If we fail to make this distinction in the coming months, then it will be too late for both games.
Instead, I’d love to see the anger that was directed at GOM for it’s idiotic paying stream system to be focused at the Blizzard and their Gretech puppets. If the fans of esports in general, whether Sc2 or BW don’t speak up and demand a deal on BW, then I fear the dream of Korean esports is doomed. Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:16 FireBlast! wrote:
Thank you for echoing my thoughts with such lucidity and eloquence. My thoughts exactly. Tree Hugger, this is why I did not buy Sc2 - out of protest of how Blizzard through Gretech is killing Korean eSports in the name of profit margin. Was I wrong to not buy it? I can't believe the people here at TL have forgotten what this site has been about for so long - and how Blizzard is so readily just killing all that. Professional BW - teams, corporate sponsors, players, the NaDas, Saviors, Jaedongs and Flashes, the articles, the reviews, previews, and culture around professional BW. People here barely even mention that Blizzard is massacring this culture that we've help to build up and appreciate... what the? Now I'm glad for TL to get attention. I like Idra, Nazgul, TLO, and Team TL. What I don't like is the turning away from said facts above.
Blizzard isn't killing anything. They're not out of line at all in expecting KeSPA to stop stealing their game. Take a look at how much KeSPA collects from MBC/OSL to pretty much sit on their asses and send refs to a few matches (And then fuck up decisions when they're needed. MSL power outage anyone). You're telling me they can't afford to pay some royalty fees to the company that rightfully owns the game? Get a grip. If BW dies it'll be at the hands of KeSPA's stubbornness.
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I think quite a bit of this thread is worthless/pointless. People defending Kespa, but saying Blizzard is evil, and so on. A lot of it is Korean players saying "You don't understand, Kespa is great, Blizzard is evil, it's different here in Korea", and the replies going the other way. However it may be in Korea, it's also different here in the US. So, both parties are simply defending their ground, I guess.
It's Blizzard's game. They can sell the rights to it, or not. Kespa has no right to sell rights to Starcraft. Simple as that. If you want to play the game, you do so under their terms. If you don't want to play it under their terms, don't buy it. It's that simple. If you don't want to advance Blizzard's profit, best to not buy their games at all, if they're as evil as many of you say. I'm not saying they're perfect angels, but it IS their product, and they own the rights to it, and/or the ability to assign/sell rights to it. Not Kespa.
Kespa does have the contracts with the players, and are well within their rights to do what they have done with said players. It's the players' choice to continue with them, or not. However, they've done some stuff in public that makes people in the US think of the Mafia, or other organized crime people. You just don't act like that in public here. What you do in Korea where other people don't see it is your business, of course, but crap like that looks really bad here. Now, I'm not saying there aren't organizations that do bad stuff in the US. There's plenty, but most of them are better at public relations.
You notice I haven't addressed the whole e-sports thing, and I won't, because I'm not an expert in that. However, I'm no kid, and I know which corporation I'd rather give my money to, based on what is publicly available about them. IMO, it's too early to tell about the e-sports thing.
I don't think that Blizzard is sure they WANT SC2 to be the next BW. They have Diablo 3 and a new MMO coming up in the next 5-10 years, and who knows what after that. Why would they want to have people committed to a 5-year old game after that? I'm not saying that's their plan, but the possibility is there. One thing I am sure of: they'll keep patching the game for the people who ARE playing it at that time. I mean, they released a patch for Diablo II last year, and it's almost as old as SC1...
You can call me a Blizzard fanboi if you want, but, when one company acts like a normal corporation trying to make a profit in a down economy, and the other acts like a criminal organization, trying to sell rights *it doesn't even have*, I know which one I like better.
Edit: Also, let's cut the nostalgia crap. SC2 is not 'killing' TL's BW section. If it's dying, it's dying of its own volition. If the TL management didn't want to let in SC2, they wouldn't have made the SC2 section. They can delete it if they want. It's their forum to do what they wish with. I understand the deference to longtime posters, but, you're still not forum management, and can't make their decisions for them.
Edit2: Also, you're comparing a 12-year-old game that's been an e-sport for a while with a game that's only been officially released in the rest of the world for 39 days. Has it even come out of free/beta status in Korea yet?
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The style in which BW is an esport in Korea will forever be Korean. We will not have anything similar in the rest of the world due to a simple fact: Travel expenses. In Korea everything happens in one huge city which houses half the countries population (including the surrounding area). The rest of the world is MUCH bigger than one megalopolis.
We will have a different kind of esport in the rest of the world and this has already established itself. Regular and relatively low prize tournaments are already happening every week with the addition of several big tournaments. Obviously no one can make enough money from this to support himself and even for sponsors it seems not really that ideal to pay a lot to individual players when their success isnt guaranteed. I think they would have more exposure from sponsoring tournaments (like the HDH has shown IMO) instead. Thus we will have a MUCH wider player base and tournaments covered by free streams.
The thing I really hate atm is the additional software which we have to install to follow certain tournaments. These are the tournaments organized by big companies (ESL, MLG, Gom) and they are live tournaments. The additional software is used to push through the ads (Octoshape does require you to turn off adblock) and to show it only to people who have paid extra for a stream whose lag-free-quality the company can NOT guarantee. Personally I think it is a waste of time to watch any stream with a laggy or medium quality, because there is already sooo much free SC2 to watch that you can fill all your needs with it and it will be more in the future. The big companies with their moneymaking schemes should rethink the "pay to view" policies with so much free competition.
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Yeah Kespa was what really made bw to the great esport it now is.
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to me it just seams that this is another "SC2 wont live up to BW" threads. was BW big as it was today in its first year? no, 2nd year? no, 3rd year no? in korea shit started to happen yes but all in all it a took a couple years to get BW on the track with all the pro-leagues and tournaments BW has today/last year.
now we look at SC2 which already has a HUGE tournament in korea and hundreds online everyday with massive prize money, are these players comparable to Flash or Jaedong? no, will be still be around 5 years from now? prob not, but right now SC2 has a huge edge over BW in terms of the time period, players and sponsorship. If BW were to die tomorrow SC2 wouldn't die along with it, it would leave a scare in the world of esports if it happened abruptly like that but it wouldn't die the way your suggesting. Sc2 is still a baby, its barely a few months old and trying to guess or predict on whether it will become a success as big as BW is the stupidest thing you can do, you might as well try and predict when the next iceage will come,
the thing about sc2 is that its not just BW players turning over to sc2, its a HUGE wide varitey of gamers from all sorts of games, rts, fps, mmo, rpg, w/e they are coming from everywhere and still are more to come.
people still complain about balance and issues regarding gameplay, i mean back in the day a pool cost 150 minerals, 4pool was UNSTOPABLE, did blizz not do something about it? yes they added 50 more minerals too it and more and more stuff latter on to the game we know today so stfu and let blizzard do their job, will sc2 be balanced in the year? no, next year? prob not, 3 years? maybe.
will sc2 become a success likes it brother BW? i dont know, will it become a good as game as BW? i dont know, will more threads like this and people complain/rage/disscuse about sc2 and bw?
yes.
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On September 05 2010 02:20 Rabiator wrote:
The style in which BW is an esport in Korea will forever be Korean. We will not have anything similar in the rest of the world due to a simple fact: Travel expenses. In Korea everything happens in one huge city which houses half the countries population (including the surrounding area). The rest of the world is MUCH bigger than one megalopolis.
If it becomes popular enough players will be able to afford travelling around the world for major tournaments, just look at tennis. Let's hope it makes it that far! 
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EPT
