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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
EDIT: What did I say?
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Let me first say that I claim no special knowledge of the BW scene in Korea, or the negociations between Gretech and Kespa. I know only as much as has been faithfully reported by Milkis here and here. So if Rekrul or someone wants to come in and tell me I’m completely wrong, that’d be welcome. But my thoughts here are based upon this common knowledge.
Here’s What I Know:
These last few weeks seem to have been a seminal period for esports. On one hand, the MSL saw a series between Flash and Jaedong that lived up to the hype, and the two OSL finalists were determined, set to play a first ever finals in Shanghai. Meanwhile, the budding Sc2 foreign scene delivered two exciting live events, in Europe and North America, while in Korea the GSL kicked off with two days of offline qualifiers. And as everyone knows, the tournament will see several games of the Round of 64 played live on OGN. With such a multitude of events being played, it might seem initially that esports is on the cusp of a huge breakthrough.
Yet, as this week marks the conclusion of the MSL and the OSL, it may also mean the end of these tournaments, and proleague forever. Negotiations between Gretech, GOM’s parent company, and Kespa and MBC seem to have completely fallen through. It seems likely at this point, that should proleague and the MSL begin next season, they will do so as outlaw leagues, with the event of litigation almost a certainty. Whether or not Kespa’s argument over copyright has merit or not is another issue entirely, and one that I am ill-positioned to answer. But it should be obvious that a court case is a scenario we don’t want to reach, and one that, if lost, would spell the death of the BW scene.
Doubtless many readers on TL.net wouldn’t have a problem with that. Those of you who came to this site in anticipation of Sc2’s beta and launch, those of you who had to sit through people whining about BW being the harder game or Sc2 being a colossal disappointment, surely see the imminent death of the BW scene as a good thing. BW’s passing is commonly seen as the natural order of things, just as Fifa ‘08 is replaced by Fifa ‘09, and then subsequent versions of the game. Furthermore, among those familiar with the BW scene, or those familiar with generations of Blizzard games, there is a predisposition to take the side of Blizzard/Gretech against Kespa. While Blizzard’s ability to design quality games has become a given, Kespa is an organization who has a habit of commonly making silly petty mistakes. Their game-time decisions always invite controversy, and their handling of the networks and players and teams has often been suspect. Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
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Esports
First, let me mention what I call success. For most games, success is making money, selling units, and creating a fairly robust community of players. Yet for the starcraft line, success means something else entirely. BW is the best selling PC game on earth. It seems fair to say that it is then one of the best played computer games. This alone sets an extremely high bar. Yet BW is the only video game to have ever achieved commercial success as an esport. The term esport is literally inseparable from the first starcraft game. Therefore, while Sc2 may be considered a success already by any normal metric, it will always be compared to it’s older brother, and currently compares quite unfavorably, although to compare them at this point in time is obviously not fair. Sc2’s legacy from the very beginning has been to function as an esport in the mold of BW. But to assume that Sc2 can organically achieve the success as an esport that BW achieved seems farfetched to me. BW’s unparalleled achievements are product of a number of different factors that seem unlikely to be all repeated. These factors include but aren’t limited to the computer boom in Korea, its inexpensive cost, the personality of boxer, and its overall quality, to name a few. While Sc2 is an excellent game, and through extensive play may someday see the level of intricacy shown in BW, and while Sc2 may see a charismatic, flashy player rise win a bunch of tournaments, and become a spokesman for the esport, it simply isn’t possible for Sc2 to gain all of the advantages that BW had, and that made it so successful. But Sc2 shouldn’t be expected to take the same path as BW. There is no one way to success, and Sc2 can easily reach it through its own unique advantages. Chief among these advantages is the head start its gotten from its older brother. As an example of this, consider that Sc2 has developed significantly faster in terms of strategy than BW did, simply because we know where to look in coming up with new tactics and builds. Similarly, in order to become a success as an esport, Sc2 has to use the advantages given to it by BW’s foothold, and use the lessons learned by BW as it struggled to gain mainstream attention.
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
One final note about success as an esport. Inherent in this explanation is the answer to another frequently asked question; “Why Korea?” The answer, of course, is “Where else?” Korea is the only country on earth with the market, the infrastructure, and the history to allow Sc2 to grow rapidly and healthily. If Sc2 fails in korea, it will be a failure as an esport, and therefore as a worthy follow-up to BW.
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Reasons Why
#1: Ill-will:
By now everyone knows of the follies of Blizzard’s Korean launch of Sc2, and how it has created a somewhat unfair backlash against the game. From hanging up posters in unwelcome spots, to advertising in illegal spots, Blizzard peppered their Korean launch with childish errors that have retarded the sale of the game since. Yet the ill-will caused by some heavy-handed and arrogant marketing tactics does not strike me as the kind of animosity that is likely to last. Blizzard didn’t personally insult any of their audience, and the laws they broke are not particularly serious. If Sc2 can distinguish itself as a game and an esport, the audience and the purchases would come.
Except, of course, if Blizzard really did something huge to anger Korean esports fans. And forcing out their flagship leagues might just be it. Blizzard and Gretech’s ham-fisted attempt to shut down proleague and the MSL in the search for more money and better airtime, seems to be exactly the kind of insult that could spell the end of Sc2’s career in Korea. The core audience for Sc2 is identical to the core audience that is currently in place for BW. Alienating that audience, leaves nobody left to watch. And for the few adventurous (or traitorous) souls who might give Sc2 a try? Forcing comparisons in watch-ability and interest at this stage is a battle that Sc2 cannot win.
#2: No pedigree, No infrastructure:
You could not make people watch the Scottish Premier League by forcibly killing off the English Premier League. If the American Arena Football League somehow forced the NFL to fold, the millions of Monday night football watchers wouldn’t switch over to the AFL.
In Blizzard and GOM’s maneuverings, there seems to be an assumption that people will always watch esports, and, BW being absent would doubtless switch over to Sc2. Yet only those who have no knowledge of the tortuous history of Korean star craft would harbor such views. If BW dies, many Koreans will simply watch other established sports, like baseball and soccer instead. Or perhaps they’ll turn off the PC or the tv altogether. Either way, esports isn’t something that needs to exist, or will always exist in some form or another. Esports exists today because of the tenacity and hard work of many many people, including those in Kespa. Those people made sure professional programs were put on tv, and exciting games were played. Those people put their hearts and souls into keeping BW alive, and in the minds of the viewers. All of the ground BW has at the moment is extremely hard won, but also territory that could, at any moment, be given away. The match fixing scandal was potentially disastrous for BW, yet in part because of the integrity of the players and coaches who were not involved, the game survived and has delivered in the summer since. But if BW is shut off, this territory will be closed off completely.
Consider that the launch of a new television show is always handled by putting the new show after an existing favorite. The network would never move a popular program from its popular spot in order to take a huge risk on another program. If it did, both programs would likely decline in popularity. See Jay Leno, or New Coke. It’s the same principal.
Not only will the hard won attention of viewers be lost if Sc2 is forced upon people, but the entire infrastructure of BW will also be lost. The existing programming teams will have no real reason to stay in existence should proleague be eliminated. The coaches, players, managers will all be out of jobs. Some may stay and try to catch up to Sc2, and some may move on. No matter what, there will be a huge loss of talent and expertise. Whatever mechanism is developed to deal with Sc2 and future games will have to be built from scratch if the BW industry is shoved out the door. This is much more readily agreed to be a bad thing. I think the loss of Kespa, (an organization which, for my money has been doing much better with each successive year as it learns on the job) would be a bad thing as well, but I don’t think people will be quite so aggrieved as if the teams and the players left.
#3: No Credibility:
The thing everyone always remarks about BW is that it is still so popular more than ten years after its release. Obviously that’s a credit to the energies of the people and organizations I mentioned above, but that ten years is more than a statistic. What is means is that in among video games, especially highly complex video games, (Minesweeper, for example, doesn’t count) BW has enjoyed a lifetime that’s unheard of. There is no complex video game in existence that has been played for as long and as consistently as BW, and obviously, BW’s pro scene has been the most reliable pro scene a video game has ever enjoyed.
And that’s enormous. Many video games are fun to play and watch, but the point of creating a professional scene dedicated to any one game is generally a bit silly, as games change and are updated and replaced all the time. With BW, it’s been the opposite. That means that mainstream sponsors (Korean Air, Shinhan Bank) felt comfortable in sponsoring leagues and tournaments, because they knew the product would remain the same. Similarly, there has been a constant influx of new talent into the BW pool, as players like Action, and BaBy have come up extremely recently. They have been able to do so because the game they watched and played as much younger kids is the same game they watch and play on tv. If a kid is potentially good enough to play this game for a living, he needs to know that the league he wants to play in will still be there down the road. Otherwise, it simply doesn’t make any sense to practice it.
Which means that if BW is killed off at ten years, it sets a terrible precedent for all of esports. BW was the game that defied the yearly/bi-yearly cycle of video games. Every year, BW reappeared on tv, and the players got better and better. Even today, we cannot be sure that players have hit the skill and mental ceiling for BW. Kids like Jaedong, and Flash, Action and BaBy played the game through their teens, and were able to catch up after many years to the top players. Eventually, Flash and Jaedong would age, and they would be replaced by other players. If this doesn’t happen, then esports has been proven to be a useless venture, and one that cannot last. Which kids will play Sc2 with the dream of playing among the best players, if they know the game they’ve invested so much time into will promptly be washed away by Warcraft 4, or Starcraft 3? Which sponsors will put down money to help a league that will be ancient history in a few short years?
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TL;DR
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. In fact, if Sc2 and BW are to succeed as esports in the future, the conventional business model of video games; replace and replay, must be turned on it’s head. Esports must be lasting and growing institutions, not yearly flights of fancy. If we want to see the highest quality games, and the highest quality tournaments, then Sc2 and BW must be linked together as older brother to younger brother, [I]not[/I\ as father to son. If we fail to make this distinction in the coming months, then it will be too late for both games.
Instead, I’d love to see the anger that was directed at GOM for it’s idiotic paying stream system to be focused at the Blizzard and their Gretech puppets. If the fans of esports in general, whether Sc2 or BW don’t speak up and demand a deal on BW, then I fear the dream of Korean esports is doomed.
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Thank you for echoing my thoughts with such lucidity and eloquence.
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Agreed. Even as someone who has no interest in watching sc2 now, I'm more than willing to come back and check on it in a few years to see if the play has matured to the point where i will find it interesting. However, Sc2 simply won't have a future as a professional esport if BW dies out.
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On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
(...)
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
(...)
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté.
I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded.
Why would SC2 fare better with BW alive? Would the audience continue watching BW, migrate to SC2, or enjoy both? Why is only Korea relevant to the development of e-Sports? What about the storm clouds converging over the BW scene, with coaches resigning/being fired, teams attempting to disband and match-fixing scandals? Does this not merit to consider the possibility that the BW scene is rotting from within? What about the players and commentators who've made a smooth transition to the SC2 scene- more top-level foreigners than you can count, Tester, JulyZerg, Day[9], and the rise of new commentators in HD and Husky among others? What about the SC2 teams and training houses already setting up shop in Korea? Why should the SC2 fans care that the BW scene is hemorrhaging talent, if that talent is migrating straight to SC2? What about all the WC3 pros who are migrating to SC2, and from other strategy games as well- like fan-favorite TLO coming from having played Supreme Commander?
Your post is made from a BW perspective. You don't seem to be in touch with the SC2 scene- or if you are, you don't reflect that in your post. All in all, I completely disagree with your conclusions; I see no reason why SC2 cannot succeed if BW dies.
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On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
(...)
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
(...)
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded. Why would SC2 fare better with BW alive? Would the audience continue watching BW, migrate to SC2, or enjoy both? Why is only Korea relevant to the development of e-Sports? What about the storm clouds converging over the BW scene, with coaches resigning/being fired, teams attempting to disband and match-fixing scandals? Does this not merit to consider the possibility that the BW scene is rotting from within? What about the players and commentators who've made a smooth transition to the SC2 scene- more top-level foreigners than you can count, Tester, JulyZerg, Day[9], and the rise of new commentators in HD and Husky among others? Why should the SC2 fans care that the BW scene is hemorrhaging talent, if that talent is migrating straight to SC2? What about all the WC3 pros who are migrating to SC2, and from other strategy games as well- like fan-favorite TLO coming from having played Supreme Commander? Your post is made from a BW perspective. You don't seem to be in touch with the SC2 scene- or if you are, you don't reflect that in your post. All in all, I completely disagree with your conclusions; I see no reason why SC2 cannot succeed if BW dies.
I see no reason why they can't co-exist. The match making scandal is one thing, and if anything it's a sign really that people are taking gaming seriously, it's a bit ironic but true. If no on gave a shit about BW, it wouldn't have become a scandal.
Just because there are players and commentates coming into Sc2, what does that say about BW? Nothing at all, all the players coming from BW have been in-active for a long time anyways.
Although I do disagree with some points of the OP ( like Sc2 not being able to live at all without BW) I do think that it is much better to have them both.
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On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:
I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded.
You dismissed the justification provided, offhand, without addressing any of the points made.
I am not impressed.
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On September 04 2010 12:59 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
(...)
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
(...)
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded. Why would SC2 fare better with BW alive? Would the audience continue watching BW, migrate to SC2, or enjoy both? Why is only Korea relevant to the development of e-Sports? What about the storm clouds converging over the BW scene, with coaches resigning/being fired, teams attempting to disband and match-fixing scandals? Does this not merit to consider the possibility that the BW scene is rotting from within? What about the players and commentators who've made a smooth transition to the SC2 scene- more top-level foreigners than you can count, Tester, JulyZerg, Day[9], and the rise of new commentators in HD and Husky among others? Why should the SC2 fans care that the BW scene is hemorrhaging talent, if that talent is migrating straight to SC2? What about all the WC3 pros who are migrating to SC2, and from other strategy games as well- like fan-favorite TLO coming from having played Supreme Commander? Your post is made from a BW perspective. You don't seem to be in touch with the SC2 scene- or if you are, you don't reflect that in your post. All in all, I completely disagree with your conclusions; I see no reason why SC2 cannot succeed if BW dies. So what's your point. Do you want BW to die? Would you like them both? Do you simply want Sc2 to take over? I see no reason why they can't co-exist. The match making scandal is one thing, and if anything it's a sign really that people are taking gaming seriously, it's a bit ironic but true. If no on gave a shit about BW, it wouldn't have become a scandal. Just because there are players and commentates coming into Sc2, what does that say about BW? Nothing at all, all the players coming from BW have been in-active for a long time anyways.
The OP's point is that the death of the BW scene would be as tragic to BW as it would be to SC2; that SC2 cannot succeed without BW. My point, is that those claims and the supporting arguments used do not hold; in other words, SC2 CAN succeed if the BW pro-scene dies out.
As to your other points- the burden of proof is on the OP, not on me. He claims that the survival of the BW scene is critical; I point out complications. He claims that SC2 can only exist, if it co-exists with BW; I ask him to elaborate on how exactly they would co-exist, and argue that there are reasons to think that SC2 could survive/succeed without this co-existence.
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You seem myopically focused on Korea.
Korea has been the bastion of the BW scene, its true.
But that has never translated to success outside of Korea. Prior to the launch of SC2, the number of Americans and Europeans who cared in any way about BW numbered in the tens of thousands--that is, probably less than can be found in the stands of any regular-season NFL game.
Nor has the BW scene seen significant growth in recent years.
The possibility that BW grows beyond what it is currently is essentially 0%. It is what it is--a niche sport that has realized its potential, if not in terms of skill than certainly in terms of commercial viability, in the only country that cares about it at all.
SC2 is already vastly more popular as a spectator sport outside of Korea than BW has ever been, or ever will be.
So why should it attempt to simply mimic BW? We know what BW-style "success" looks like--a decent-sized, highly dedicated fanbase from a single nation.
If SC2 is even one sixth as popular in the United States alone as BW is in Korea, it will have achieved as many fans as BW did, simply by virtue of the USA's larger population.
SC2 should not be aiming to be "the next BW". It should be aiming much higher than that--to be a successful e-sport worldwide. Success in Korea is one component of that, but it is far from the only one. If Korea never embraces SC2, but the rest of the world does, that in of itself will make SC2 bigger than BW has ever been.
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I don't see Blizzard asking for what's rightfully theirs as "killing off BW". KeSPA needs to show some respect and recognize Blizzard for what they are and what they've done, instead of pretending that they have no claim on the game they created. If BW dies, you'll know who to blame (And in case you don't, let me give you a hint; It's not Blizzard).
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Blizzard is a company. So is Kespa. Both of these organizations do whats in their business interests, not for the love of e-sport.
If Blizzard wants to kill of sc1 to promote sc2, (and it is in their interest to do so), than they will most likely do it.
Even if all the korean fans decided to boycott sc2 and watch other sports or do whatever, sc1 league are still under blizzard control and will slowly, yet surely die. Boycotting SC2 will not bring sc1 back unless blizzard wants it to continued. Worst case scenario: SC2 e-sport fail, SC1 e-sports is shut down, kespa went out of business, blizzard release another MMO to make more money and plan SC3 for 2020, and all the korean sc fans watch other sports.
Either way, there is just no legal way for kespa to win a legal battle against blizzard regarding copy rights.
PS: the first few seasons of GSL will fail. The only way for SC2 e-sports to survive in the future required: a more functioning bnet, continued patch and balance, and a sc1 style pro scene with teams, sponsor, and a regular salaries for pro-gamers.
PSS: Both Blizzard and Kespa fail at e-sport. They are both too greedy and want too much power. When greeds and power are taken out of the equation, we can have some real e-sports, even by amateurs such as the HDH invitational which got like 200k views and growing.
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On September 04 2010 12:59 RoarMan wrote:
I see no reason why they can't co-exist. The match making scandal is one thing, and if anything it's a sign really that people are taking gaming seriously, it's a bit ironic but true. If no on gave a shit about BW, it wouldn't have become a scandal.
Just because there are players and commentates coming into Sc2, what does that say about BW? Nothing at all, all the players coming from BW have been in-active for a long time anyways.
Although I do disagree with some points of the OP ( like Sc2 not being able to live at all without BW) I do think that it is much better to have them both.
As the current situation stands now it cannot co-exist simply because Kespa wants to deny SC2 foothold in SK, while blizzard wants to promote it (and control over every step of their products, etc.etc.), if it even means killing KESPA along with the Broodwar. As always, there are no innocent sides, and the most damaged side is the fans. Co-existing is what fans want, but in reality, until KeSPa and blizz shake their hands and smoke a peace pipe, no such thing will happen, and thus, it will prolly end up in BW scene being demolished.
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On September 04 2010 12:59 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
(...)
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
(...)
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded. Why would SC2 fare better with BW alive? Would the audience continue watching BW, migrate to SC2, or enjoy both? Why is only Korea relevant to the development of e-Sports? What about the storm clouds converging over the BW scene, with coaches resigning/being fired, teams attempting to disband and match-fixing scandals? Does this not merit to consider the possibility that the BW scene is rotting from within? What about the players and commentators who've made a smooth transition to the SC2 scene- more top-level foreigners than you can count, Tester, JulyZerg, Day[9], and the rise of new commentators in HD and Husky among others? Why should the SC2 fans care that the BW scene is hemorrhaging talent, if that talent is migrating straight to SC2? What about all the WC3 pros who are migrating to SC2, and from other strategy games as well- like fan-favorite TLO coming from having played Supreme Commander? Your post is made from a BW perspective. You don't seem to be in touch with the SC2 scene- or if you are, you don't reflect that in your post. All in all, I completely disagree with your conclusions; I see no reason why SC2 cannot succeed if BW dies. I see no reason why they can't co-exist. The match making scandal is one thing, and if anything it's a sign really that people are taking gaming seriously, it's a bit ironic but true. If no on gave a shit about BW, it wouldn't have become a scandal. Just because there are players and commentates coming into Sc2, what does that say about BW? Nothing at all, all the players coming from BW have been in-active for a long time anyways.
Wait, so everyone on TL who has switched over (including the active Team Liquid clan, many frequenters, etc...) have been inactive for a long time? IdrA has been inactive for a long time?
Sure, most of the people in the GSL may be old timers or B-teamers, but that's only because of KeSPA teams not participating. And criticize them all you want, Brood War "B-teamers" are still exceptional players when compared to the other 99.5% of us players.
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Your points are all really good and this is really well written, but you have to take into consideration that blizzard only understands $$$-signs and it's obvious they see sc2 as their new cash cow and don't want broodwar ruining that. They do not care much about the proscene in Korea or even about e-esports afaik, the bottom line for them is finding a smart strategy to get as many people to buy sc2 cd's as possible.
I don't think broodwar will die just like that, but proleague disappearing and other competitions disappearing would indeed be sad.
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On September 04 2010 13:09 awesomoecalypse wrote:
You seem myopically focused on Korea.
Korea has been the bastion of the BW scene, its true.
But that has never translated to success outside of Korea. Prior to the launch of SC2, the number of Americans and Europeans who cared in any way about BW numbered in the tens of thousands--that is, probably less than can be found in the stands of any regular-season NFL game.
Nor has the BW scene seen significant growth in recent years.
The possibility that BW grows beyond what it is currently is essentially 0%. It is what it is--a niche sport that has realized its potential, if not in terms of skill than certainly in terms of commercial viability, in the only country that cares about it at all.
SC2 is already vastly more popular as a spectator sport around the world than BW has ever been, or ever will be.
So why should it attempt to simply mimic BW? We know what BW-style "success" looks like--a decent-sized, highly dedicated fanbase from a single nation.
If SC2 is even one sixth as popular in the United States alone as BW is in Korea, it will have achieved as many fans as BW did, simply by virtue of the USA's larger population.
SC2 should not be aiming to be "the next BW". It should be aiming much higher than that--to be a successful e-sport worldwide. Success in Korea is one component of that, but it is far from the only one. If Korea never embraces SC2, but the rest of the world does, that in of itself will make SC2 bigger than BW has ever been.
This. You say that the two games can't be compared in watchability and interest. I agree. HDH both have 200000+ subscribers, and Jon747 has 25000. I wonder why?
I do not want BW to die. I like the BW proscene. I like watching starleague games. But the supposed reliance SC2 has for BW is based on assumption. Brood War could not succeed outside of Korea; but time is not frozen, and people are not statues. Barriers dissolve, and perceptions change, and sometimes, opportunities arise where there were none before.
I would also like to note that you are very much preaching to the choir. I would be very dubious of any claims that a greater proportion of the SC2 fanbase wants BW to die than BW supporters want SC2 to die. We want e-sports, period. It's just that SC2 looks more promising than BW ever was, and no amount of fear-mongering will change that.
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Look, I hear all the time that if sc2 fails in korea it will fail everywhere else, but i just don't see it. Just take a look at the recent events from ESL and MLG. Both events drew record numbers for esports outside of korea and the game has been released for just over a month. If SC2 is looking bright for us in the west, why should I care about its success in Korea?
The fact is, BW as an esport may be the best thing for korea, but it's not the best thing for the west. Games are becoming more casual and easier. That might be a bad thing for someone that can respect precision micro and perfect macro, but to the average viewer or player its a huge turn off.
Esports has always been about numbers and turnout. If theres noone watching then theres no sponsors, if theres no sponsors then theres no esports. Its as simple as that, and for a Esports organization in the west to get sponsors they have to be established and prove that it is worth investing in them.
BW outside of korea (and the same in korea could be said) has been slowly dieing. Spectation was a shadow if its former self in the past few years and thats because the people that are comming into the gaming scene now are not interested in playing a game with 1997 graphics with controls that do nothing but make the game less fun to play without a huge time investment. I know not a single person that can say that they 'enjoyed' BWs controls and mechanics more than modern RTSs.
Thats not a bad thing, for someone that has been playing the game for years, or someone that has the time to learn how to master the mechanincs of BW. But with the increasingly casual video game market a game like that would not survive. I can't name a single 'hardcore' style game of the late 90's developed in our time succeed.
Going back to viewers, It shows in my own experiences too. I've never met a single person who i've shown a starcraft game to for the first time that has said to me afterward that 'that looks like its fun'. However, i know atleast 20 people who i've shown a SC2 vod to and later went and bought the game, without having any previous RTS experience. And so far every single one has enjoyed it.
Hell, in the technology lab in my school we recently screened the ESL finals on a large projector screen and had nearly 30 people, male, female, a few teachers even, watching the game and enjoying it. I couldn't name a similar experience for BW since atleast 2004/2005, and it would have been on a much smaller scale.
The fact is, BW is an old game, and the fans that it has now are most likely the fans that it will have for the rest of its existence. There is no new market for BW.
Starcraft 2 on the otherhand is a new game with new opportunity and new chances. I'm sure that the people who are diehard BW fans and hate SC2 will be disappointed, but time moves on, the Esports scene has always been fickle and BWs time was ticking. BW should not be forgotten, and it shouldn't be ended before its time.
But as someone who has not and never will live in Korea, SC2 is finally bringing public interest into my lifelong passion, Esports, and anyone trying to stop that from happening is just being selfish.
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On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
(...)
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
(...)
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded. Why would SC2 fare better with BW alive? Would the audience continue watching BW, migrate to SC2, or enjoy both? Why is only Korea relevant to the development of e-Sports? What about the storm clouds converging over the BW scene, with coaches resigning/being fired, teams attempting to disband and match-fixing scandals? Does this not merit to consider the possibility that the BW scene is rotting from within? What about the players and commentators who've made a smooth transition to the SC2 scene- more top-level foreigners than you can count, Tester, JulyZerg, Day[9], and the rise of new commentators in HD and Husky among others? What about the SC2 teams and training houses already setting up shop in Korea? Why should the SC2 fans care that the BW scene is hemorrhaging talent, if that talent is migrating straight to SC2? What about all the WC3 pros who are migrating to SC2, and from other strategy games as well- like fan-favorite TLO coming from having played Supreme Commander? Your post is made from a BW perspective. You don't seem to be in touch with the SC2 scene- or if you are, you don't reflect that in your post. All in all, I completely disagree with your conclusions; I see no reason why SC2 cannot succeed if BW dies.
All this stuff about wc3-pros going over to sc2 is kinda rubbish, there are virtually no pros in wc3. SC2 is not as spectator friendly as SC1, so you thinking that breaking down the sc1 will help sc2 flurish is completely incorrect. WC3 was a kind of follow up to broodwar just like sc2 and look at where that game is now competetively. The scene is completely dead, in total it hasn't even been as popular as mods made for it, like DOTA.
SC-2 will be great if Blizzard work hard at improving the game experience etc., but the problem is that they're too often too busy stuffing their pockets with money.
I thought the OP's post made more sense than your did and didn't draw his conclusions as loosely.
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On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
(...)
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
(...)
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded. Why would SC2 fare better with BW alive? Would the audience continue watching BW, migrate to SC2, or enjoy both? Why is only Korea relevant to the development of e-Sports? What about the storm clouds converging over the BW scene, with coaches resigning/being fired, teams attempting to disband and match-fixing scandals? Does this not merit to consider the possibility that the BW scene is rotting from within? What about the players and commentators who've made a smooth transition to the SC2 scene- more top-level foreigners than you can count, Tester, JulyZerg, Day[9], and the rise of new commentators in HD and Husky among others? What about the SC2 teams and training houses already setting up shop in Korea? Why should the SC2 fans care that the BW scene is hemorrhaging talent, if that talent is migrating straight to SC2? What about all the WC3 pros who are migrating to SC2, and from other strategy games as well- like fan-favorite TLO coming from having played Supreme Commander? Your post is made from a BW perspective. You don't seem to be in touch with the SC2 scene- or if you are, you don't reflect that in your post. All in all, I completely disagree with your conclusions; I see no reason why SC2 cannot succeed if BW dies.
Also, developing e-sports in Korea is a possibility, because of their unique culture and history. Do you think progaming has as big a chance of succes in your homeland Chile as in Korea? You should look more into things.
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I really only gotten into esports since SC2. BW doesn't interest me at all, as dated it is. Even then, I hate to see it taken away from people who worked to build it where it is and all the passionate fans.
I mean I agree that SC2 already succeeded in the west in a level BW did not. Stable support from MLG and ESL will be huge. However MLG/ESL is a LONG ways away from the level of play proleagues achieved. The continued fighting has already seen GSL booted from OGN, this is all just not a good start. I kinda side with the op in the sense that GOM/Blizzard cannot succeed alone with SC2 in Korea, they need more support from within. It's awesome how successful it has been in the west, but the a truly professional league would still be best possible outcome.
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Do you guys not realize that the Koreans would rape all of you guys over and over and then you would all get bored of SC2 because prior to BW's downfall (which will probably happen), you all have a chance to become "good" or even a somewhat top level player. But when the Koreans do switch over, it will be the same thing again like in BW. The Koreans will become so good at the game that the skill gap is incomparable and soon enough rest of the world will slowly start to lose interest. I don't know, but that's how I see it. Why do all the top foreigners play SC2 now? Lol.
That would be hilarious to see. I wonder how the SC2'ers would react after that.
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New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL). SC2 fans who have no experience with Broodwar have a misguided impression that having a bunch of big money tournaments and a live event with people on ustream equals an instant Esport hit. But every year large money prize pools are dished out for many mediocre games, sponsored mainly by video card and other gaming gear related companies, and then the game is forgotten a year or two later by the big donors. The success of an esport, as TreeHugger has correctly identified, is defined by sustainability.
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On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
TL;DR
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. In fact, if Sc2 and BW are to succeed as esports in the future, the conventional business model of video games; replace and replay, must be turned on it’s head. Esports must be lasting and growing institutions, not yearly flights of fancy. If we want to see the highest quality games, and the highest quality tournaments, then Sc2 and BW must be linked together as older brother to younger brother, [I]not[/I\ as father to son. If we fail to make this distinction in the coming months, then it will be too late for both games.
Instead, I’d love to see the anger that was directed at GOM for it’s idiotic paying stream system to be focused at the Blizzard and their Gretech puppets. If the fans of esports in general, whether Sc2 or BW don’t speak up and demand a deal on BW, then I fear the dream of Korean esports is doomed.
Wow, dude, I only read parts of your wall of text, but I have to agree as far as Korea is concerned. For the rest of us, SC2 is a chance for a fresh start and potential to grow outside of Korea. SC2 isn't dependent on Korea for success. BW was successful in Korea but not really anywhere else so I fail to see how people can come to that conclusion. I do agree that the target audience for SC2 is the same as BW, in Korea, and so pissing on the BW crowd really can't lead to good relations.
Or maybe Activizard realizes the BW scene is so entrenched there is no hope to move BW players to the shiny new SC2 so they just kill it?
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On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL).
I was watching the MLG stream and my father, who hates video games and doesn't understand them at all, walked in the room and sat behind me. I briefly explained Starcraft 2 to him again and he was entranced. He watched Socke v Drewbie, all three games. He thought it was really cool. My mother joined us for a while as well.
By your definition this makes SC2 a successful e-sport, right?
Not trolling, I'm just going through your logic.
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GomTV might be a bumbling idiot, but Kespa definitely exhibits corrupt qualities indicative of Korean business practices. And, no, implying that Korean business are corrupt, nepotism-focused affairs is not racist -- it's just true. Although we may "need" Korea for "quality" e-Sports, getting rid of Kespa and its ilk would be a blessing in any case.
I do get the impression that a lot of the backlash against SC2 is manufactured. To say that Blizzard is somehow inept at not dealing with Kespa is unfair and completely disregards how childish and greedy the negations have been -- not to mention... passive aggressive.
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On September 04 2010 13:38 Hikko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL). I was watching the MLG stream and my father, who hates video games and doesn't understand them at all, walked in the room and sat behind me. I briefly explained Starcraft 2 to him again and he was entranced. He watched Socke v Drewbie, all three games. He thought it was really cool. My mother joined us for a while as well. By your definition this makes SC2 a successful e-sport, right? Not trolling, I'm just going through your logic.
Are you trolling or something? Purposely misinterpreting people is very rude :/.
Its very evident hes talking about this scenario on a social scale, not "OH MY DAD LIKES IT".
I do get the impression that a lot of the backlash against SC2 is manufactured.
By whom? Kespa?
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It is merely the words of nostalgic brood war fans who believe that with the possible extinction of brood war will there be the lack of success for sc2. It is unreasonable to suggest such a thing. The sooner everyone can come to terms with the fact that Starcraft 2, while bearing the name of it's undeniable powerhouse of a predecessor, is NOT brood war.
Because of this, it must also be understood that there was never any intention to begin with for it to merely replace brood war. Made to be an e-sport? Yes. But clever clever blizzard, instead of targeting south Korea, whom would no doubt have mixed feelings about the introduction of a game that could be dangerous to their precious brood war, they targeted they're casual world wide fan base.
I also do not interpret this as a bad thing! Is the game easier to use? Absolutely. Does this mean the skill cap is significantly lower than BW? Most certainly not and it is far too early to pass judgement on this. I believe Starcraft 2 will develop to have an equally illustrious reputation as it's predecessor. Perhaps not in south Korea, but certainly collectively throughout the world, regardless If brood war dies or not.
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On September 04 2010 13:38 Hikko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL). I was watching the MLG stream and my father, who hates video games and doesn't understand them at all, walked in the room and sat behind me. I briefly explained Starcraft 2 to him again and he was entranced. He watched Socke v Drewbie, all three games. He thought it was really cool. My mother joined us for a while as well. By your definition this makes SC2 a successful e-sport, right? Not trolling, I'm just going through your logic.
No, he means that it has become socially acceptable to watch Broodwar like a sport. It's has less of a nerdy stigma around it in Korea than in Western Society. Besides, personal experiences used in an argument? Not very good. =/
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On September 04 2010 13:09 awesomoecalypse wrote:
You seem myopically focused on Korea.
Korea has been the bastion of the BW scene, its true.
But that has never translated to success outside of Korea. Prior to the launch of SC2, the number of Americans and Europeans who cared in any way about BW numbered in the tens of thousands--that is, probably less than can be found in the stands of any regular-season NFL game.
Nor has the BW scene seen significant growth in recent years.
The possibility that BW grows beyond what it is currently is essentially 0%. It is what it is--a niche sport that has realized its potential, if not in terms of skill than certainly in terms of commercial viability, in the only country that cares about it at all.
SC2 is already vastly more popular as a spectator sport outside of Korea than BW has ever been, or ever will be.
So why should it attempt to simply mimic BW? We know what BW-style "success" looks like--a decent-sized, highly dedicated fanbase from a single nation.
If SC2 is even one sixth as popular in the United States alone as BW is in Korea, it will have achieved as many fans as BW did, simply by virtue of the USA's larger population.
SC2 should not be aiming to be "the next BW". It should be aiming much higher than that--to be a successful e-sport worldwide. Success in Korea is one component of that, but it is far from the only one. If Korea never embraces SC2, but the rest of the world does, that in of itself will make SC2 bigger than BW has ever been.
You should really try to base your conclusions on facts instead of just making stuff up and your vision for this incredible sc2-world with the whole world watching is far out.
'But that has never translated to success outside of Korea. Prior to the launch of SC2, the number of Americans and Europeans who cared in any way about BW numbered in the tens of thousands--that is, probably less than can be found in the stands of any regular-season NFL game.'
So you're saying that only some tens of thousands care about one of the most popular computer games of all time, sounds slightly misinformed to me.
'So why should it attempt to simply mimic BW? We know what BW-style "success" looks like--a decent-sized, highly dedicated fanbase from a single nation.'
From a spectator perspective it's the most succesful computer game ever, any other game would do well to emulate that, your post is once again misinformed. There is also a large audience outside Korea.
'But that has never translated to success outside of Korea. Prior to the launch of SC2, the number of Americans and Europeans who cared in any way about BW numbered in the tens of thousands--that is, probably less than can be found in the stands of any regular-season NFL game.'
You are once again misinformed BW has a large player base worldwide, despite a sequal being out and despite it being 12-years old. If you think there is no fanbase outside Korea, you should watch the OGN-FINALS in Shanghai this month
Edit: you should look at how many viewers and reader tl.net had before sc2 and tell us once again that broodwar has little to no audience outside Korea.
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It's kind of funny. Much like we see players theroycraft about SC2 strats that don't really work in a real game, this topic is kinda getting esoteric with people predicting huge changes and movements in the E-sports arena without really knowing.
While I am a little sad to see the BW stuff die (I was never super into it, but I did see some AMAZING games.) I think you need to save what you can, and BW is starting to get beyond saving. It doesn't matter if you blame Blizz or Kespa, clearly neither intend to budge, and that will be that.
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'But that has never translated to success outside of Korea. Prior to the launch of SC2, the number of Americans and Europeans who cared in any way about BW numbered in the tens of thousands--that is, probably less than can be found in the stands of any regular-season NFL game.'
Specifically Americans and UK, two markets that have been veritably the most hostile towards strategy games, much less one twelve years old. Outside of that cluster, BW was, and still is, more popular then SC2. And the level of Esport success SC2 has had within that cluster is demonstrably less then most console shooters.
BW is starting to get beyond saving. It doesn't matter if you blame Blizz or Kespa, clearly neither intend to budge, and that will be that.
I don't understand why you would say BW isn't worth saving when it has a larger worldwise fanbase then SC2. Can we keep it alive for twenty years? Probably not. But 12 years is not anywhere near its time.
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I read through about 2/3rds of your write up and felt it was pretty biased to be honest then I just skipped down to the TL;DR.
There's one huge thing that you seem to be neglecting. The sums of prize money that has been built up for BW tournaments won't just vanish when it dies. As soon as sponsors realize that BW is a sinking ship(It is) they well reallocate their funds to a new focus and the most logical step is SC2. Players will follow the prize money and fans will follow the players. Business is all about moving forward and staying with trends. It would be just plain bad business sense for sponsors to stay in BW for much longer. It would be like tennis racket companies continuing to produce wooden rackets.
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There's one huge thing that you seem to be neglecting. The sums of prize money that has been built up for BW tournaments won't just vanish when it dies. As soon as sponsors realize that BW is a sinking ship(It is) they well reallocate their funds to a new focus and the most logical step is SC2. Players will follow the prize money and fans will follow the players. Business is all about moving forward and staying with trends. It would be just plain bad business sense for sponsors to stay in BW for much longer. It would be like tennis racket companies continuing to produce wooden rackets.
Perhaps if you actually read the entire fucking post, you'd have read his redress to that issue.
Basing a esports success on prizepools is stupid. For instance, Blizzcon tournaments have been one of the most lucrative tournaments in the world, held yearly, actually possessing a larger prizepool then MSL (40,000$ versus 34,000$ 1st place) and its like, yet it is barely a blip on the competitive radar, getting considerably less attention from fans both in and outside of Korea.
Games Workshop Tournaments and Wizard of the Cost Tournaments are among the most lucrative game tournaments outside of poker or other cardgames. Yet taken as a competitition, it attracts almost nobody outside of its niche fanbase.
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The simple fact is, the way I see it, Anyone that has ever wanted to follow BW has followed BW. The scene peaked, plateau'd and now is on the decline. There is no new market for BW.
Starcraft 2 on the other hand is a completely new game with new opportunity and new fans who are just being brought in to the Esports scene now, many with no prior RTS or even gaming knowledge.
Broodwar doesn't have to end, but trying to stop the progress of SC2 is just destroying the scene as a whole.
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On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Doubtless many readers on TL.net wouldn’t have a problem with that. Those of you who came to this site in anticipation of Sc2’s beta and launch, those of you who had to sit through people whining about BW being the harder game or Sc2 being a colossal disappointment, surely see the imminent death of the BW scene as a good thing. BW’s passing is commonly seen as the natural order of things, just as Fifa ‘08 is replaced by Fifa ‘09, and then subsequent versions of the game. Furthermore, among those familiar with the BW scene, or those familiar with generations of Blizzard games, there is a predisposition to take the side of Blizzard/Gretech against Kespa. While Blizzard’s ability to design quality games has become a given, Kespa is an organization who has a habit of commonly making silly petty mistakes. Their game-time decisions always invite controversy, and their handling of the networks and players and teams has often been suspect.
That is a poor assumption to make. Even among the people that like SC2 more than BW, there is no "predisposition" to take the side of Blizzard because even the SC2 fans recognize the utter stupidity Blizzard has shown in Starcraft 2's release, namely things like no Chat Channels, no Cross-Realm Play, and no LAN. Most SC2 fans realize that Blizzard, at the very least, could be acting as stupidly as Kespa has/is.
On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
So wait, Blizzard and Gretech are ones that are drowning/dying now? I can see you were trying to be dramatic here, but I think you have the roles reversed. Presently Blizzard and Gretch are doing well, it's Kespa that faces dying and are the ones reaching for help.
Other than those spots, I think it was a pretty good post. You stated a lot of facts, but I don't think your arguments quite convinced me that Starcraft 2 would fail if Brood War dies. Of course I don't want Brood War to die, I'm a huge fan, but I think your argument relies too much on assumptions.
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So wait, Blizzard and Gretech are ones that are drowning/dying now? I can see you were trying to be dramatic here, but I think you have the roles reversed. Presently Blizzard and Gretch are doing well, it's Kespa that faces dying and are the ones reaching for help.
Other than those spots, I think it was a pretty good post. You stated a lot of facts, but I don't think your arguments quite convinced me that Starcraft 2 would fail if Brood War dies. Of course I don't want Brood War to die, I'm a huge fan, but I think your argument relies too much on assumptions.
Specifically on the venue of Korea, Starcraft 2 has had remarkably underwhelming performance in Korea, despite being a free game.
Blizzard has shown in Starcraft 2's release, namely things like no Chat Channels, no Cross-Realm Play, and no LAN. Most SC2 fans realize that Blizzard, at the very least, could be acting as stupidly as Kespa has/is.
The only people I've ever seen support Kespa over Blizzard are longtime Brood War fans. New players will, 99.9% of the time, prefer Blizzard over Kespa, on nothing but familiarity alone.
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On September 04 2010 13:50 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
There's one huge thing that you seem to be neglecting. The sums of prize money that has been built up for BW tournaments won't just vanish when it dies. As soon as sponsors realize that BW is a sinking ship(It is) they well reallocate their funds to a new focus and the most logical step is SC2. Players will follow the prize money and fans will follow the players. Business is all about moving forward and staying with trends. It would be just plain bad business sense for sponsors to stay in BW for much longer. It would be like tennis racket companies continuing to produce wooden rackets.
Perhaps if you actually read the entire fucking post, you'd have read his redress to that issue.
You're a Dbag. I actually did go back and read the rest of it to look for this redress and I didn't see what you were referring to. If you're talking about the part where he talked about how if it died off in 10 years that would be horrible for e-sports then I look at that as bad logic.
The technological advancements that are made on a yearly basis let alone 10 years in the gaming industry are more than enough for games to blow their predecessors out of the water. As I said in my original post; continuing to push BW would be like continuing to push tennis with wooden rackets. Sure, it was very entertaining, even with wooden rackets, but new technology and developments continued to push it forward. I know my input on this may seem like a bit of a stretch but you have to look at it like RTS is the "Game" and SC2 and BW are the "Ball".
Also I'm not the only one who felt that this article was very biased and based on opinions rather than facts like a good article should be.
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On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
(...)
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
(...)
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded.
This perfectly sums up what I was thinking reading the post.
I mean I personally don't want BW scene to die, why would I? But I cannot see any reason why SC2's success lies in BW success. SC2 success is on a worldwide scale, so even if it does horrible in korea, it can still do well. I mean husky and hdh have been kicking ass on youtube, it doesn't require fancy jackets, cute girls, raised platform to make it a hit, with big enough potential of audience, the internet can even do better.
Edit: The fanbase of BW as far as I can tell isn't so great, even though a lot of people bought it 12 years ago. I mean I loved sc1 and bw 12 years ago, I played it way to much back then, then I moved on. Over the past years I've come back to BW at stuff like lans and felt it almost unplayable(due to being spoiled by such things as wc3). Am I in the "huge fanbase" even if I have hardly played the game last 10 years?
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Ah right, this is the SC2 forum. Of course they want BW dead lol.
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On September 04 2010 13:55 Half wrote:
Specifically on the venue of Korea, Starcraft 2 has had remarkably underwhelming performance in Korea, despite being a free game.
The least you could do is wait until opening day of the GSL is over before making a judgement like this. -_-
On September 04 2010 13:55 Half wrote:
New players will, 99.9% of the time, prefer Blizzard over Kespa, on nothing but familiarity alone.
Familiarity makes it even more one-sided.. KeSPA has killed GOM already once, handled the match-fixing scandal poorly, attempted to sell off broadcasting rights that they don't have, and invented new retarded rules every chance they got. What has KeSPA done right, exactly?
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I like your point in that having a successful eSports means longevity and timelessness - 10 years should not be taken as longevity and timelessness, and if BW dies then it would have failed to succeed and that moreoever SC2 will be doomed in the long run. The only way to get around this is to see SC2 as an updated version of BW... Which isn't going to happen. I see your logic, but I hope SC2 will become the standard eSport throughout the world for the next 20, 30, 100 years if possibile.
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On September 04 2010 14:06 Amnesia wrote:
Ah right, this is the SC2 forum. Of course they want BW dead lol.
I wouldn't say that I want BW dead. I'm just of the opinion that it's vastly out dated and it's only a matter of time before the focus of e-sports(In both Korea and globally) shifts to a newer technology SC2 or otherwise.
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As a Korean who's been watching the game for quite some time, I have to disagree.
This is already a small market with small audiences. Having 2 major leagues under different games at once will cannibalize each other. There's no 'gracefully' handing down the baton. One must stop before the other can begin.
There is however one central objective that must be accomplished: Kespa must be disbanded. The whole association is basically an extortion racket designed purely to siphon back the ad revenue the major companies invested in OGN and MBCgames - holding players as hostages. The whole market cannot grow with a leech on its back. They're leaving no profit for the networks to really expand the leagues.
The companies already have seen marketing potentials in this market, so even if they pull out for now, they'll eventually return and teams will form soon after.
It's gonna hurt for now, but it's all for better. It's better to have the game's control in the hand of the game's developer.
Also let's not forget what Kespa's been doing to the scene as well. Chat bans, PPP, unfair rulings (heater, anyone?), Mohime boycott, pulling NaDa out, the list goes on. They've done more bad than good.
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On September 04 2010 14:14 gaggar wrote:
Also let's not forget what Kespa's been doing to the scene as well. Chat bans, PPP, unfair rulings (heater, anyone?), Mohime boycott, pulling NaDa out, the list goes on. They've done more bad than good.
When you really lay it all out, it's sort of surprising the scene has done as well as it has, in spite of such an inept ruling body. It's really a credit to the players and the fans. :|
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On September 04 2010 13:38 Hikko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL). I was watching the MLG stream and my father, who hates video games and doesn't understand them at all, walked in the room and sat behind me. I briefly explained Starcraft 2 to him again and he was entranced. He watched Socke v Drewbie, all three games. He thought it was really cool. My mother joined us for a while as well. By your definition this makes SC2 a successful e-sport, right? Not trolling, I'm just going through your logic.
Dude , probably your father was just " shit my son like this kind of shit, i think ill have to endure it".
The fact is that some new SC2 players think "wow , this event is huge there is 2000 sc2 nerds watching on the stream" , and go " the scene is huge outside Korea". This is retarded, is like comparing the NBA with the Paraguai basket scene.
and lol , " BW is only big in Korea , SC2 is bigger in the world". Yeah but the Korean scene is like 1000 times bigger than the rest the world...
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new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it.
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On September 04 2010 14:21 Looky wrote:
new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it.
In spite of KeSPA.
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On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Instead, I’d love to see the anger that was directed at GOM for it’s idiotic paying stream system to be focused at the Blizzard and their Gretech puppets. If the fans of esports in general, whether Sc2 or BW don’t speak up and demand a deal on BW, then I fear the dream of Korean esports is doomed.
Thought they said somewhere there would be a free LQ stream.
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On September 04 2010 14:22 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 14:21 Looky wrote:
new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it.
In spite of KeSPA.
Do you know what Kespa is?
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Brood War is dead. It is only because it was such a great and enduring game that people don't realize it yet. It was dead from the moment Blizzard announced a sequel. There's a reason everyone connected with the two games who did not directly benefit from continuing the original immediately moved over to the newer version when it released. Starcraft 2 is newer, prettier, "hip" and yes, it's stars include players from all over the globe. Rightly or wrongly, those things matter. People who may have been intrigued by the idea of the original or esports in general are flocking to SC2 because it doesn't feel like they are a decade behind. KESPA is within it's rights to try and hold on as long as possible, but in reality they would be better served by embracing the transition rather than fighting a battle they cannot win. Time always emerges the victor, and if wasn't going to be Starcraft 2 something else would have come along eventually.
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10387 Posts
On September 04 2010 14:22 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 14:21 Looky wrote:
new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it.
In spite of KeSPA.
oh please, lets start listing all the bad shit Blizzard has done right? Kespa isn't even that bad.
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On September 04 2010 14:24 SONE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Instead, I’d love to see the anger that was directed at GOM for it’s idiotic paying stream system to be focused at the Blizzard and their Gretech puppets. If the fans of esports in general, whether Sc2 or BW don’t speak up and demand a deal on BW, then I fear the dream of Korean esports is doomed. Thought they said somewhere there would be a free LQ stream.
But recently, it’s been clouded by GomTV’s decision to charge non-Korean viewers up to $50 for live stream and VODs. The public outcry has been tremendous from Koreans and non-Koreans alike, and thankfully, GomTV listened. There will be stream. It will be free. Decisions like this are not easy, and to their credit, the powers that run the GSL listened to the community.
-First news post on the front page of Teamliquid.
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new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it.
Sure...in Korea.
That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison.
If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea.
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On September 04 2010 14:26 JPSke wrote:
Brood War is dead. It is only because it was such a great and enduring game that people don't realize it yet. It was dead from the moment Blizzard announced a sequel. There's a reason everyone connected with the two games who did not directly benefit from continuing the original immediately moved over to the newer version when it released. Starcraft 2 is newer, prettier, "hip" and yes, it's stars include players from all over the globe. Rightly or wrongly, those things matter. People who may have been intrigued by the idea of the original or esports in general are flocking to SC2 because it doesn't feel like they are a decade behind. KESPA is within it's rights to try and hold on as long as possible, but in reality they would be better served by embracing the transition rather than fighting a battle they cannot win. Time always emerges the victor, and if wasn't going to be Starcraft 2 something else would have come along eventually.
So you are saying that they should leave behind the sc:bw progaming scene which is already intact with full corporate backings, sponsors, etc. to something that is just starting and fragile?
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On September 04 2010 14:27 Cynoks wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 14:24 SONE wrote:On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Instead, I’d love to see the anger that was directed at GOM for it’s idiotic paying stream system to be focused at the Blizzard and their Gretech puppets. If the fans of esports in general, whether Sc2 or BW don’t speak up and demand a deal on BW, then I fear the dream of Korean esports is doomed. Thought they said somewhere there would be a free LQ stream. Show nested quote +But recently, it’s been clouded by GomTV’s decision to charge non-Korean viewers up to $50 for live stream and VODs. The public outcry has been tremendous from Koreans and non-Koreans alike, and thankfully, GomTV listened. There will be stream. It will be free. Decisions like this are not easy, and to their credit, the powers that run the GSL listened to the community. -First news post on the front page of Teamliquid.
Yes is that not what I said?
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On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea.
Korea is the mecca of e-sports my friend. It is already an institution there compared to the rest of the world. If they want SC2 to be played professionally on the level that SCBW is at now then it has to succeed first in Korea.
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On September 04 2010 14:25 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 14:22 Vokasak wrote:On September 04 2010 14:21 Looky wrote:
new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it.
In spite of KeSPA. Do you know what Kespa is?
He obviously does not.
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On September 04 2010 14:27 Cynoks wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 14:24 SONE wrote:On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Instead, I’d love to see the anger that was directed at GOM for it’s idiotic paying stream system to be focused at the Blizzard and their Gretech puppets. If the fans of esports in general, whether Sc2 or BW don’t speak up and demand a deal on BW, then I fear the dream of Korean esports is doomed. Thought they said somewhere there would be a free LQ stream. Show nested quote +But recently, it’s been clouded by GomTV’s decision to charge non-Korean viewers up to $50 for live stream and VODs. The public outcry has been tremendous from Koreans and non-Koreans alike, and thankfully, GomTV listened. There will be stream. It will be free. Decisions like this are not easy, and to their credit, the powers that run the GSL listened to the community. -First news post on the front page of Teamliquid.
Cause they know they can't stop free streams from poping up.
Best to offer a lq stream for free, and give a "membership" with hq streams, hq vods etc inside stuff.
I have to agree, with the op as well. Bw cannot die, mainly because i love it so.
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On September 04 2010 14:25 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 14:22 Vokasak wrote:On September 04 2010 14:21 Looky wrote:
new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it.
In spite of KeSPA. Do you know what Kespa is?
The group that killed off the BW league most open to foreign fans, and hand out punishments because players don't gg "properly", that forced Nada to cut his showmatch with TLO short, that completely mishandled the match fixing even though they admit to knowing it was going on. Yes, I know what Kespa is, but it doesn't seem like you do.
On September 04 2010 14:26 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 14:22 Vokasak wrote:On September 04 2010 14:21 Looky wrote:
new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it.
In spite of KeSPA. oh please, lets start listing all the bad shit Blizzard has done right? Kespa isn't even that bad.
Like what? Made stims 50/50 cheaper? Get a grip.
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On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea.
SC2 is going to be bigger than BW ? Outside Korea ? Where dude ?in Europe ? No country will embrace e-sport like Korea did so soon. The fact that is there is no real professional e-sports scene outside of Korea. Cant compare a dude who plays for a 3k prize once a year with someone who gets a five digit salary.
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This has been said before a million times, but...
Blizzard doesn't care.
And that's the heart of the problem. This is not the same Blizzard that we grew up with. Elements of that old Blizzard still remain, but that corporation that tried to establish itself by producing the absolute best games (even if release dates would get pushed back quite frequently) seems to have been replaced by a more typical American business. Competitor companies come along? Take 'em to court! Long term planning of growth of e-sports? Who needs that when we can have a bigger profit margin now, in the short term?
I remember going to a LAN and getting a free Warcraft 3 mousepad from a guy who worked at Blizzard and talking to him about what we gamers wanted to see in a sequel to Starcraft. Where has that corporate mentality gone? (That guy, awesome fellow by the way but I'm drawing a blank on his name, ended up leaving the company. I don't remember why, if he even said why.)
I don't mean to beat the "Let's All Demonize Blizzard" drum. They still provide us with excellent games. But I really miss the Blizzard that cared what the hardcore enthusiasts thought. I miss the Blizzard that remembered that the popularity of Starcraft is owed to the people who made e-sports sustainable (the players, the coaches, and most importantly the die-hard fans). Because under different circumstances, Starcraft might have been like Warcraft 3 in its fanbase, and if that had happened, then Warcraft 3 wouldn't have been as strong and Starcraft 2 certainly wouldn't have been as strong in the sales ratings.
Now, Blizzard is just another "big company" like Microsoft or Oracle.
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On September 04 2010 14:11 Cynoks wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 14:06 Amnesia wrote:
Ah right, this is the SC2 forum. Of course they want BW dead lol. I wouldn't say that I want BW dead. I'm just of the opinion that it's vastly out dated and it's only a matter of time before the focus of e-sports(In both Korea and globally) shifts to a newer technology SC2 or otherwise.
So, if what you write makes any sense why hasn't it happened in Korea and why didn't it happen with wc3?
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The least you could do is wait until opening day of the GSL is over before making a judgement like this. -_-
Key word. Had. Not "Will Have".
This perfectly sums up what I was thinking reading the post.
I mean I personally don't want BW scene to die, why would I? But I cannot see any reason why SC2's success lies in BW success. SC2 success is on a worldwide scale, so even if it does horrible in korea, it can still do well. I mean husky and hdh have been kicking ass on youtube, it doesn't require fancy jackets, cute girls, raised platform to make it a hit, with big enough potential of audience, the internet can even do better.
Let me help.
Which means that if BW is killed off at ten years, it sets a terrible precedent for all of esports. BW was the game that defied the yearly/bi-yearly cycle of video games. Every year, BW reappeared on tv, and the players got better and better. Even today, we cannot be sure that players have hit the skill and mental ceiling for BW. Kids like Jaedong, and Flash, Action and BaBy played the game through their teens, and were able to catch up after many years to the top players. Eventually, Flash and Jaedong would age, and they would be replaced by other players. If this doesn’t happen, then esports has been proven to be a useless venture, and one that cannot last. Which kids will play Sc2 with the dream of playing among the best players, if they know the game they’ve invested so much time into will promptly be washed away by Warcraft 4, or Starcraft 3? Which sponsors will put down money to help a league that will be ancient history in a few short years?
Edit: The fanbase of BW as far as I can tell isn't so great, even though a lot of people bought it 12 years ago. I mean I loved sc1 and bw 12 years ago, I played it way to much back then, then I moved on. Over the past years I've come back to BW at stuff like lans and felt it almost unplayable(due to being spoiled by such things as wc3). Am I in the "huge fanbase" even if I have hardly played the game last 10 years?
....What exactly are you saying? Yes, you may not be part of the BW scene. In fact, perhaps it isn't popular in your area at all. But the world does not revolve around you.
Wooden Rackets -> Metal Racket is a totally invalid comparison to SC2->BW btw. Wooden Rackets ->Metal Rackets would be like Blizzmaps->Iccup Map.
Show nested quote +
new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it.
Sure...in Korea.
That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison.
If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea.
This is such bullshit logic. This would be true if we were arguing against/for a development that would detriment the growth of SC2 in Korea, but promote it worldwide. This however, is not the case at all. In fact, SC2 actually less accessible then its predecessor was at release, because new players are introduced to a community of longexisting veterans.
There are very few inherent factors that would make SC2 any more successful as an Esport outside of Korea then SC1. I'll admit, SC2 has a bigger shot, but not because of how it how its been designed, and certainly not as a result of any "controversial" decision, but purely because gaming is just more socially accepted in general. And because that has nothing to do with SC2, it isn't relevant to this argument.
Also let's not forget what Kespa's been doing to the scene as well. Chat bans, PPP, unfair rulings (heater, anyone?), Mohime boycott, pulling NaDa out, the list goes on. They've done more bad than good.
lolwut? You've listed a bunch of specifics. On the bigger picture, they fund and manage progaming as an entity. If Kespa shut down today, BW progaming would cease to exist.. Now, I'll admit Kespa sucks, but to say "Kespa has done more harm then good" is so incredibly ignorant its not even funny.
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On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Instead, I’d love to see the anger that was directed at GOM for it’s idiotic paying stream system to be focused at the Blizzard and their Gretech puppets.
GOM concedes, will provide free LQ stream
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On September 04 2010 14:38 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
The least you could do is wait until opening day of the GSL is over before making a judgement like this. -_-
Key word. Had. Not "Will Have"
If you're comparing what BW has accomplished over the past decade to what SC2 has done in a few short months, then the proper response to you would be "duhhhh". I thought you were making a less-obvious, more meaningful point.
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On September 04 2010 14:32 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 14:25 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:On September 04 2010 14:22 Vokasak wrote:On September 04 2010 14:21 Looky wrote:
new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it.
In spite of KeSPA. Do you know what Kespa is? The group that killed off the BW league most open to foreign fans, and hand out punishments because players don't gg "properly", that forced Nada to cut his showmatch with TLO short, that completely mishandled the match fixing even though they admit to knowing it was going on. Yes, I know what Kespa is, but it doesn't seem like you do.
You've shown a shallow understanding of what kespa has done.
Now do you know what kespa is?
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Ok, sorry if this comes off as inflammatory because the first page or two of replies has really pissed me off.
To those of you jumping in and saying "Oh SC2 is a new game. BW is old, SC2 is new. BW is Korean, SC2 is global. BW is dying, SC2 has potential." You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You really don't. Every time you say "SC2 doesn't need Korea, it has the rest of the world! SC2 has achieved more greatness than BW ever has, just look at HD and Husky compared to nevake and Jon747!" you just make yourself look like an idiot. It's not about Youtube viewers. It's not about random tournaments like ESL/MLG. There's a difference between the little notion you have in your head of "eSports" and what eSports actually is and actually could be. eSports isn't just "oh, look it's SC2 in WCG and hey MLG is sponsoring SC2 as well, SC2 is doing great!" It's not about making a video game just another part of the video game industry, like SSB, WC3, DotA, WoW. It's about LONGEVITY. It's about building a fucking CULTURE. So you have your little SC2 "eSports" for what, two years? Three years? Then the next new awesome video game comes out and everyone jumps on the new bandwagon? What makes Starcraft stand out from all the others? What contributes to its longevity? No, it's not the fact that Blizzard made it. No, it's not the fact that it's a well-designed game. It's the fucking CULTURE. You CAN'T just isolate Korea and look at the rest of the world when it comes to eSports. Because Korea IS fucking eSports.
If you keep looking at SC2 in this way, despite all the hard work the members of the community put in, including HD, Husky, and Day9, SC2 will just end up as another "good" game that will quickly be replaced by the next "big" thing.
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Now, Blizzard is just another "big company" like Microsoft or Oracle.
Sadly, thus is the way of all things flesh. ;o.
Ok, sorry if this comes off as inflammatory because the first page or two of replies has really pissed me off.
To those of you jumping in and saying "Oh SC2 is a new game. BW is old, SC2 is new. BW is Korean, SC2 is global. BW is dying, SC2 has potential." You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You really don't. Every time you say "SC2 doesn't need Korea, it has the rest of the world! SC2 has achieved more greatness than BW ever has, just look at HD and Husky compared to nevake and Jon747!" you just make yourself look like an idiot. It's not about Youtube viewers. It's not about random tournaments like ESL/MLG. There's a difference between the little notion you have in your head of "eSports" and what eSports actually is and actually could be. eSports isn't just "oh, look it's SC2 in WCG and hey MLG is sponsoring SC2 as well, SC2 is doing great!" It's not about making a video game just another part of the video game industry, like SF, SSB, WC3, DotA, WoW. It's about LONGEVITY. It's about building a fucking CULTURE. So you have your little SC2 "eSports" for what, two years? Three years? Then the next new awesome video game comes out and everyone jumps on the new bandwagon? What makes Starcraft stand out from all the others? What contributes to its longevity? No, it's not the fact that Blizzard made it. No, it's not the fact that it's a well-designed game. It's the fucking CULTURE. You CAN'T just isolate Korea and look at the rest of the world when it comes to eSports. Because Korea IS fucking eSports.
If you keep looking at SC2 in this way, despite all the hard work the members of the community put in, including HD, Husky, and Day9, SC2 will just end up as another "good" game that will quickly be replaced by the next "big" thing.
<3.
edit:
Only thing I disagree with
SF, SSB, WC3, DotA, WoW
Saying all these games don't have their own cultures that exist independently of the video game industry imo, is kind of elitist (minus Wc3, which really doesn't have a very developed culture anymore, except maybe outside of China). Especially games like Street Fighter have forums that are just as "elite" as teamliquid (http://shoryuken.com/). There are plenty of good example of games that are successful as competitive games, but failures as esports (MW2, GoW, WoW Arenas (but not WoW in its entirety)), but imo, games like Dota and Sf aren't one of them.
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On September 04 2010 14:49 Saracen wrote:
Ok, sorry if this comes off as inflammatory because the first page or two of replies has really pissed me off.
To those of you jumping in and saying "Oh SC2 is a new game. BW is old, SC2 is new. BW is Korean, SC2 is global. BW is dying, SC2 has potential." You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You really don't. Every time you say "SC2 doesn't need Korea, it has the rest of the world! SC2 has achieved more greatness than BW ever has, just look at HD and Husky compared to nevake and Jon747!" you just make yourself look like an idiot. It's not about Youtube viewers. It's not about random tournaments like ESL/MLG. There's a difference between the little notion you have in your head of "eSports" and what eSports actually is and actually could be. eSports isn't just "oh, look it's SC2 in WCG and hey MLG is sponsoring SC2 as well, SC2 is doing great!" It's not about making a video game just another part of the video game industry, like SF, SSB, WC3, DotA, WoW. It's about LONGEVITY. It's about building a fucking CULTURE. So you have your little SC2 "eSports" for what, two years? Three years? Then the next new awesome video game comes out and everyone jumps on the new bandwagon? What makes Starcraft stand out from all the others? What contributes to its longevity? No, it's not the fact that Blizzard made it. No, it's not the fact that it's a well-designed game. It's the fucking CULTURE. You CAN'T just isolate Korea and look at the rest of the world when it comes to eSports. Because Korea IS fucking eSports.
If you keep looking at SC2 in this way, despite all the hard work the members of the community put in, including HD, Husky, and Day9, SC2 will just end up as another "good" game that will quickly be replaced by the next "big" thing.
Thank you Saracen! Reading your reply made me feel much better 
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On September 04 2010 14:21 Looky wrote:
new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it.
Actually the reality of it is that most koreans don't get MBCgames or OGN as part of their cable plan. The basic and premium plans for both cables and satellite often omit those two channels so either you have to pick the channels manually or buy the complete package to have them.
Despite the prevalence of HD channels in Korea, both channels have no HD offerings.
Also there are like at most 10 players out of 500+ players get paid that amount of money. Most others do with less than $1000 per month. I think Idra got paid less than that prior to his switch to SC2.
And here's the thing about the audiences. The finals usually draw large amount of audience but that's about it. Studio attendance are meager compared to even other less-popular sports like volleyball or handball in Korea. And although there's a huge potential in this market, that's why you see crappy special force ads popping up for OGN/MBC commercial breaks. The audiences are small, and the target audience doesn't spend much money to begin with.
the scene will not expand with Kespa holding its heels back. Reform is in order and it'll soon be bigger and better.
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On September 04 2010 14:49 Saracen wrote:
Ok, sorry if this comes off as inflammatory because the first page or two of replies has really pissed me off.
To those of you jumping in and saying "Oh SC2 is a new game. BW is old, SC2 is new. BW is Korean, SC2 is global. BW is dying, SC2 has potential." You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You really don't. Every time you say "SC2 doesn't need Korea, it has the rest of the world! SC2 has achieved more greatness than BW ever has, just look at HD and Husky compared to nevake and Jon747!" you just make yourself look like an idiot. It's not about Youtube viewers. It's not about random tournaments like ESL/MLG. There's a difference between the little notion you have in your head of "eSports" and what eSports actually is and actually could be. eSports isn't just "oh, look it's SC2 in WCG and hey MLG is sponsoring SC2 as well, SC2 is doing great!" It's not about making a video game just another part of the video game industry, like SF, SSB, WC3, DotA, WoW. It's about LONGEVITY. It's about building a fucking CULTURE. So you have your little SC2 "eSports" for what, two years? Three years? Then the next new awesome video game comes out and everyone jumps on the new bandwagon? What makes Starcraft stand out from all the others? What contributes to its longevity? No, it's not the fact that Blizzard made it. No, it's not the fact that it's a well-designed game. It's the fucking CULTURE. You CAN'T just isolate Korea and look at the rest of the world when it comes to eSports. Because Korea IS fucking eSports.
If you keep looking at SC2 in this way, despite all the hard work the members of the community put in, including HD, Husky, and Day9, SC2 will just end up as another "good" game that will quickly be replaced by the next "big" thing.
This man has hit the nail on the head. SC2 players, please read this.
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On September 04 2010 14:38 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
The least you could do is wait until opening day of the GSL is over before making a judgement like this. -_-
Key word. Had. Not "Will Have". Show nested quote +This perfectly sums up what I was thinking reading the post.
I mean I personally don't want BW scene to die, why would I? But I cannot see any reason why SC2's success lies in BW success. SC2 success is on a worldwide scale, so even if it does horrible in korea, it can still do well. I mean husky and hdh have been kicking ass on youtube, it doesn't require fancy jackets, cute girls, raised platform to make it a hit, with big enough potential of audience, the internet can even do better. Let me help. Show nested quote +
Which means that if BW is killed off at ten years, it sets a terrible precedent for all of esports. BW was the game that defied the yearly/bi-yearly cycle of video games. Every year, BW reappeared on tv, and the players got better and better. Even today, we cannot be sure that players have hit the skill and mental ceiling for BW. Kids like Jaedong, and Flash, Action and BaBy played the game through their teens, and were able to catch up after many years to the top players. Eventually, Flash and Jaedong would age, and they would be replaced by other players. If this doesn’t happen, then esports has been proven to be a useless venture, and one that cannot last. Which kids will play Sc2 with the dream of playing among the best players, if they know the game they’ve invested so much time into will promptly be washed away by Warcraft 4, or Starcraft 3? Which sponsors will put down money to help a league that will be ancient history in a few short years?
Show nested quote +
Edit: The fanbase of BW as far as I can tell isn't so great, even though a lot of people bought it 12 years ago. I mean I loved sc1 and bw 12 years ago, I played it way to much back then, then I moved on. Over the past years I've come back to BW at stuff like lans and felt it almost unplayable(due to being spoiled by such things as wc3). Am I in the "huge fanbase" even if I have hardly played the game last 10 years?
....What exactly are you saying? Yes, you may not be part of the BW scene. In fact, perhaps it isn't popular in your area at all. But the world does not revolve around you.
First quote I cannot see anything to respond to you. The argument is that players cannot be good at a game because it cannot last a lifetime? Esport is doomed because players have 'only' 10 years to play it? I don't really get your response. All I've read is that SC2 is doomed if korea doesn't play it, while getting no real indications as to why it would be so, just predictions being laid out as facts.
And 2nd response, thank you for telling me the world doesn't revolve around me, was quite a wakeup call. I certainly know that BW is popular, especially considering it's a 12 year old game, but my point remains that I am uncertain that your "I don't understand why you would say BW isn't worth saving when it has a larger worldwise fanbase then SC2.". I bought the game 12 years ago, are you counting me into the worldwide fanbase? Because I highly doubt that outside of Korea BW is being played more than SC2.
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On September 04 2010 14:52 Half wrote:Only thing I disagree with Saying all these games don't have their own cultures that exist independently of the video game industry imo, is kind of elitist (minus Wc3, which really doesn't have a very developed culture anymore, except maybe outside of China). Especially games like Street Fighter have forums that are just as "elite" as teamliquid (http://shoryuken.com/). There are plenty of good example of games that are successful as competitive games, but failures as esports (MW2, GoW, WoW Arenas (but now WoW in its entirety)), but imo, games like Dota and Sf aren't one of them.
Yes, I am aware of the SF and SSB culture, and the longevity as well. Maybe I shouldn't have used those as examples (especially SF). But still, neither compare in the slightest to Brood War. Like, you really can't compare them, they're so different.
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First quote I cannot see anything to respond to you. The argument is that players cannot be good at a game because it cannot last a lifetime? Esport is doomed because players have 'only' 10 years to play it? I don't really get your response. All I've read is that SC2 is doomed if korea doesn't play it, while getting no real indications as to why it would be so, just predictions being laid out as facts.
I'll just direct you to Saracens post...
And 2nd response, thank you for telling me the world doesn't revolve around me, was quite a wakeup call. I certainly know that BW is popular, especially considering it's a 12 year old game, but my point remains that I am uncertain that your "I don't understand why you would say BW isn't worth saving when it has a larger worldwise fanbase then SC2.".
I honestly don't even get what you're trying to say. What does this statement
]I bought the game 12 years ago, are you counting me into the worldwide fanbase? Because I highly doubt that outside of Korea BW is being played more than SC2.
Even mean? Are you saying your anecdotal experience is relevant to a debate on statistics, or that somehow your anecdotal experiences has a direct effect on statistics? Either way, I'm confuse.
Regarding the actual statistics, none exist on BW. However, I'd be considering the popularity of BW in countries like China and russia combined with economic conditions that limit the purchase of SC2 (and considering SC2 has not seen a release in China), globally, I think its pretty even atm.
Yes, I am aware of the SF and SSB culture, and the longevity as well. Maybe I shouldn't have used those as examples (especially SF). But still, neither compare in the slightest to Brood War. Like, you really can't compare them, they're so different.
Well, yeah, I'll agree SSB and SF's cultures have never made any relevancy to mainstream culture beyond a few movie references, as opposed to SC1s monstrous effect on Korean culture, but still, imo, the culture itself is just as vibrant.
And Dota has made quite the impact as well. For instance, major universities in China, of all places, have there own official DoTa teams which represent them in televised tournaments. They also have there own CS teams, but not SC teams.
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Ah, tree.hugger always has something good to say.
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On September 04 2010 14:38 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
Also let's not forget what Kespa's been doing to the scene as well. Chat bans, PPP, unfair rulings (heater, anyone?), Mohime boycott, pulling NaDa out, the list goes on. They've done more bad than good.
lolwut? You've listed a bunch of specifics. On the bigger picture, they fund and manage progaming as an entity. If Kespa shut down today, BW progaming would cease to exist.. Now, I'll admit Kespa sucks, but to say "Kespa has done more harm then good" is so incredibly ignorant its not even funny.
Sure, If Kespa shut down today, BW progaming will disappear, but the players will resurface back. I'm not worried about that.
Most importantly how is Kespa beneficial to the scene AT ALL?
Let's get few things straight:
-OGN and MBCgames existed YEARS before Kespa
-Teams and Sponsor systeam also existed before Kespa
-It's only after big companies like KT, Samsung and SKT thought, 'Hey, we're sponsoring the teams. We could hold them as hostages!' the idea of association of teams began.
-Kespa forms, and DEMANDS OGN and MBCgames for millions of dollars for broadcasting rights to the game they didn't own, and lives of players they didn't have. They can't even free trade themselves without the team's consent, fgs.
-God knows how they spend those millions of dollars because what players are getting paid isn't adding up, as well as the overall expenditure of Kespa.
So the millions of dollars that could have gone into supporting teams and larger prize money basically now fuels the cabaret nights for Kespa board members.
How is that beneficial at all?
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Most importantly how is Kespa beneficial to the scene AT ALL?
....Is this a trick question?
They fund it. They organize it. They popularize it.
Perhaps in a crazy hypothetical world, if key founding members were mysterious shot in the face, we'd have a better organization taking, but that really isn't the point. The point is Kespa, as it currently exists, provides vital functions to the survival of the BW progaming scene.
Let's get few things straight:
-OGN and MBCgames existed YEARS before Kespa
And I never said Kespa was the sole party responsible for the success of BW. Nor did I say they were somehow utterly irreplaceable. But to say its hurt it more then it helped, is pretty naive.
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On September 04 2010 15:04 Half wrote:Show nested quote +]I bought the game 12 years ago, are you counting me into the worldwide fanbase? Because I highly doubt that outside of Korea BW is being played more than SC2. Even mean? Are you saying your anecdotal experience is relevant to a debate on statistics, or that somehow your anecdotal experiences has a direct effect on statistics? Either way, I'm confuse. Regarding the actual statistics, none exist on BW. However, I'd be considering the popularity of BW in countries like China and russia combined with economic conditions that limit the purchase of SC2 (and considering SC2 has not seen a release in China), globally, I think its pretty even atm.
I'm not saying anything on either side of the issue since I don't really know enough to make any informed comments, but I think what he is trying to say is that a lot of people throw around BW sales statistics as evidence of BW being a huge thing globally (which it is, in terms of sales, but many posts are trying to talk beyond simple sales which sc2 will probably do well in as well), but hes bringing up the point that for a lot of people outside of Korea they may have purchased the game at some time in the course of the last decade, but that doesn't mean that they grew attached to it for a significant time compared to other games, as was the case with him (he bought it and enjoyed it, but then he moved on). That was certainly the case with me as well (though I got back into bw eventually, for the most part I moved on after playing it a bit), so I can see his point.
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On September 04 2010 15:10 Half wrote:....Is this a trick question? They fund it. They organize it. They popularize it. Perhaps in a crazy hypothetical world, if key founding members were mysterious shot in the face, we'd have a better organization taking, but that really isn't the point. The point is Kespa, as it currently exists, provides vital functions to the survival of the BW progaming scene.
I'm pretty sure the team sponser companies fund the teams/players, and that OGN/MBC fund the broadcasting. I'm not sure what other funding you could be refering to.
As far as I can tell, organization is handled by the leagues (MSL, OSL, PL) itself and not by KeSPA, and the only "organization" I've seen come from KeSPA have been steps in the wrong direction like the gg nonsense and the like. Wouldn't things like handling match fixing fall under "organization"? Why didn't they do that before the whole thing exploded into a publicity shitstorm?
They popularize it? No, that honor goes to the passionate fans and talented players. Just admit it, KeSPA doesn't do shit.
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The ignorance and irreverence of BW I see in many posts in these parts of TL are... heartbreaking.
Times change, though, and I must admit that SC2's caretakers are sufficiently monied, experienced, supported, and known to generate revenue from SC2 for at least half of BW's lifespan. They will be able to provide events and opportunities for gamers to earn money regardless of the continuity of the system currently in place for BW.
SC2 is popular in the west. Its planned expansion model will keep the state of the game in flux for years to come. There's no reason its popularity should wane since most of the fans will not find a viable alternative (an RTS so shiny and positioned as a sport. No other developer has demonstrated the balls to put out the assets to even ostensibly take this position). As long as SC2 remains popular by virtue of its own fanbase, it shall survive.
SC2 may, or may not ever, evince the vision of a sport as the BW old guard enjoyed for so many years. In fact the very goal of attempting to take root in the west requires that its paradigm be completely novel.
One unrelated point I want to consider... is what happens to this old guard and its relationship with Team Liquid? What place do those have, who are forever disciples of a now forgotten empire? Plainly put, what happens to those who came here for the love of BW, yet are utterly disinterested in SC2? If BW dies, its events disappear, its players disappear, its live reports disappear, its strategy, tournament, and general threads... everything will inevitably vanish, leaving General... and Blogs... a derelict husk of a vessel, a drifting memoir of better times.
I personally play and am mildly interested in SC2, but I do mourn with those who see coming the end of an era, and who see no hope of another golden age on the horizon.
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On September 04 2010 15:14 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 15:10 Half wrote:
Most importantly how is Kespa beneficial to the scene AT ALL?
....Is this a trick question? They fund it. They organize it. They popularize it. Perhaps in a crazy hypothetical world, if key founding members were mysterious shot in the face, we'd have a better organization taking, but that really isn't the point. The point is Kespa, as it currently exists, provides vital functions to the survival of the BW progaming scene. I'm pretty sure the team sponser companies fund the teams/players, and that OGN/MBC fund the broadcasting. I'm not sure what other funding you could be refering to. As far as I can tell, organization is handled by the leagues (MSL, OSL, PL) itself and not by KeSPA, and the only "organization" I've seen come from KeSPA have been steps in the wrong direction like the gg nonsense and the like. Wouldn't things like handling match fixing fall under "organization"? Why didn't they do that before the whole thing exploded into a publicity shitstorm? They popularize it? No, that honor goes to the passionate fans and talented players. Just admit it, KeSPA doesn't do shit.
luls. If they don't do shit why do they exist? This seems incredibly reminiscent of that debate on Anarchy on the GDF lol. Organizations like Kespa are a bureaucracy. And Kespa serves that role. Its the coordinator, the organizer, the manager. Esports in Korea is a multi-billion dollar enterprise. Are you somehow argueing that that could without any organizers?
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On September 04 2010 14:37 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 14:11 Cynoks wrote:On September 04 2010 14:06 Amnesia wrote:
Ah right, this is the SC2 forum. Of course they want BW dead lol. I wouldn't say that I want BW dead. I'm just of the opinion that it's vastly out dated and it's only a matter of time before the focus of e-sports(In both Korea and globally) shifts to a newer technology SC2 or otherwise. So, if what you write makes any sense why hasn't it happened in Korea and why didn't it happen with wc3?
As I said in another post: prize money will follow the biggest trend, players follow the money, and fans follow the players.
Obviously all of the sponsors weren't going to just jump ship as soon as SC2 came out. That would have been too risky if SC2 was a flop. I guess SC2 could still flop but I highly doubt it will, maybe in Korea but again I doubt it. It's been out for what a month now? Give it time. Personally I find SC2 MUCH more appealing to watch than BW. Even Tasteless who commentated BW for how long said he liked SC2 in an interview.
Personally I'm of the opinion that there hasn't been an RTS developed quite as good as BW since it came out until SC2.
wc3 is still alive? News to me.
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On September 04 2010 15:10 Half wrote:
They fund it. They organize it. They popularize it.
Uh no, no and no. That's what they say they do and quite good and pretending to do.
By funding I hope you meant raping millions of dollars off of 2 broadcasting networks every year.
By organizing I hope you meant sending in few judges and observers and calling it a day.
By popularizing it I hope you meant taking the credit off of star players who worked their asses off like Boxer, Nada, Oov, reach, yellow, and dozens of others.
If Kespa hadn't been so greedy, OSL and MSL prize money could have been in 5 digits, not 4.
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I think it's obvious that having a stable professional BW scene in Korea was really good for the game in general and that it's important that a similar thing happen with SC2 for the SC2 pro scene to really be considered a success compared to BW, but I found the OP's arguments that BW needs to stick around for that to happen to be not very compelling and rather circular.
I think the writing has been on the wall for BW for a long time. While the level of play is super high, interest in BW has been steadily dwindling in Korea, and it's understandable. The newest generation of fans wasn't even born when Starcraft was originally released, and the pedigree of BW is a bit of a moot point because BW can't rely on die-hard fans to survive. New fans need to come to the sport, and they aren't going to care about NaDa or Boxer unless they get really into the sport. Even if SC2 never came on the scene, I wonder how many more years BW would've remained relevant as an esport? Could it have lasted another 5 years?
I think there are a few facts that BW fans need to acknowledge about BW. It's over a decade old, and it shows. It was great looking at the time, but to modern eyes it's ugly and archaic. It's also a bit buggy, and while veterans of the sport understand how the bugs integrate into making the game better and more exciting, to outside observers it makes the game look a bit clunky. Furthermore, pro matches can be downright boring. Take the recent match between Flash and Fantasy as an example. The games were brilliant, with Flash pulling amazing come-from behind victories due to supurb strategizing and excellent late-game play. The different styles of Flash and Fantasy were really on display, but a person without much game knowledge would've missed all the feints, missteps, indecision, and strategizing that made the games so interesting to watch. To the average would-be esports fan, those games would've been honestly kind of boring. Regardless of whether it's a better game, as a spectator sport SC2 is generally superior to BW.
I think what really needs to happen for the future of Starcraft esports is for the fans, backers, and broadcasters to make the transition from BW to SC2 happen as smoothly as possible. I think top pros and top teams need to switch to SC2, and I think being an SC2 player needs to become a full time job as it was for BW. I also think BW fans need to recognize that their support for SC2 is necessary for SC2 and the Starcraft esports scene in general to survive in Korea and continue to thrive globally.
As far as BW, I think we can count it's disappearance as basically a given, but as to whether SC2 will thrive in Korea as BW has, I think only people living in Korea and who are knowledgeable of the SC scene can say with any confidence. In my opinion our responsibility as fans is just to continue to watch top level matches and to express support for the people who are trying to make pro SC2 a reality.
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On September 04 2010 15:17 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 15:14 Vokasak wrote:On September 04 2010 15:10 Half wrote:
Most importantly how is Kespa beneficial to the scene AT ALL?
....Is this a trick question? They fund it. They organize it. They popularize it. Perhaps in a crazy hypothetical world, if key founding members were mysterious shot in the face, we'd have a better organization taking, but that really isn't the point. The point is Kespa, as it currently exists, provides vital functions to the survival of the BW progaming scene. I'm pretty sure the team sponser companies fund the teams/players, and that OGN/MBC fund the broadcasting. I'm not sure what other funding you could be refering to. As far as I can tell, organization is handled by the leagues (MSL, OSL, PL) itself and not by KeSPA, and the only "organization" I've seen come from KeSPA have been steps in the wrong direction like the gg nonsense and the like. Wouldn't things like handling match fixing fall under "organization"? Why didn't they do that before the whole thing exploded into a publicity shitstorm? They popularize it? No, that honor goes to the passionate fans and talented players. Just admit it, KeSPA doesn't do shit. luls. If they don't do shit why do they exist? Solely to leach money from the Esports scene? Is that your honest opinion?
You don't seem to understand how criminal organizations work.
Hint: They work like Kespa.
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5930 Posts
If Kespa hadn't been so greedy, OSL and MSL prize money could have been in 5 digits, not 4.
Last time I checked, OSL and MSL prize money at in the 30,000-40,000 USD range which are definitely in the 5 digit range.
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As I said in another post: prize money will follow the biggest trend, players follow the money, and fans follow the players.
This is exactly the kind of bullshit mentality thats wrong with SC2 right now. You're right. Thats completely right.
Now what the fuck happens when the next "big thing" happens? Craft of Stars 7. Oh right. The new game is saturated with money by corporate interest, pros shift over for monetary gain, and the players follow because well, what choice do they have? Be left to languish in dieing forums in a motley skeleton crew?
That isn't Esports, thats just the continuation of the serialization driven video game industry that is increasingly failing to produce anything of actual quality.
You don't seem to understand how criminal organizations work.
Hint: They work like Kespa.
Yes, and Criminal Organizations are very crucial part of the fucking drug trade. How else are you going to get Opium Grown in Afghanistan, to get processed in Turkey, Shipped to Spain, and Smuggled into the states?
Are they absolutely brutal on a scale incomparable with kespa? Yes. Do they exist for a very damn good reason and do great "benefit" tot he Drug Trade? Yes. Trust me, your pot would triple in price if it weren't for them.
edit:
And I'm not saying Kespa is a perfect system. Its a shit system. I'm saying overall its still a net benefit. I'd gladly welcome any competeting organization, without heavy ties to blizzard. Not because "Blizzard is teh evul", but because then theirs a huge conflict of interests.
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#2: No pedigree, No infrastructure:
You could not make people watch the Scottish Premier League by forcibly killing off the English Premier League. If the American Arena Football League somehow forced the NFL to fold, the millions of Monday night football watchers wouldn’t switch over to the AFL.
I feel this argument is a little weak. I mean for example, I have no problem watching either SC1 or SC2 games. Although I'd be sad if they shutdown SC1, it wouldn't be the game I'd be worried about, it would be the players that made the game so amazing. I'd honestly see them break away from kespa and join SC2 teams to continue their lives as 'professional gamers'.
Although it's a different game entirely, it's still 'starcraft', and honestly which SC1 pro right now wouldn't want to be top of SC2 too?
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"kespa does nothings and bla bla bla".
Kespa is the inevitable consequence when the scene gets real. The fact there is no e-sport association outside Korea just show how amateur is the scene out there. And those "oh but they are bad , they keep the money and bla bla bla", thats how the shit works. Thats how NBA, FIFA , NFL and all the shit works , its has a lot of money involved and its stinks.
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On September 04 2010 15:24 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +If Kespa hadn't been so greedy, OSL and MSL prize money could have been in 5 digits, not 4. Last time I checked, OSL and MSL prize money at in the 30,000-40,000 USD range which are definitely in the 5 digit range.
Well, I mean 6 digits, not 5. Pardon me.
Yes, and Criminal Organizations are very crucial part of the fucking drug trade. How else are you going to get Opium Grown in Afghanistan, to get processed in Turkey, Shipped to Spain, and Smuggled into the states?
Are they absolutely brutal on a scale incomparable with kespa? Yes. Do they exist for a very damn good reason and do great "benefit" tot he Drug Trade? Yes. Trust me, your pot would triple in price if it weren't for them.
If you're not Korean, it will probably be impossible for you to understand how the system works in Korea. Everything here exists in one form or another to make very few greedy and powerful people rich, while raping everyone else's pocket. And it is done in the name of the system. What's with you and Kespa? Have they got to you too?
And wtf are you talking about drugs? What are you, 12?
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This is exactly the kind of bullshit mentality thats wrong with SC2 right now. You're right. Thats completely right.
Now what the fuck happens when the next "big thing" happens? Craft of Stars 7. Oh right. The new game is saturated with money by corporate interest, pros shift over for monetary gain, and the players follow because well, what choice do they have? Be left to languish in dieing forums in a motley skeleton crew?
That isn't Esports, thats just the continuation of the serialization driven video game industry that is increasingly failing to produce anything of actual quality.
Welcome to the NBA/NHL/NFL/MLB.
They are paid athletes for sure. But LOL, wouldn't you like to get paid 300k a year to play as a bench warmer for the lakers and take garbage minutes for derek fisher etc..?
It's unfortunate that these progamers might be fucked over in a sense, but hey... did they really think the average of height of basketball players 20 years ago could only be like 6'3"? the game evolves and so do the sponsors that want stronger/faster/taller players etc... the game evolves and the players need to adapt if they want to continue making money doing something they like.
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Why can't we get along like the SF scene. SF4 and SF2 (or SF4 and SF3 if you are Japan) at the same time!
I don't know if this level of coexistence can happen anywhere with any serious amount of money involved honestly... ah but wouldn't it be grand.
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Asians don't have the body for physically aggressive sports.
So they watch games of the mind instead.
Here in the western world were much more physical, and aggressive. E-Sports will never be as big here as it is over across the sea, because there is much more "exciting" things to watch.
I don't understand why you guys don't get that? BW doesn't mean anything when it comes to SC2 future success. Its going to catch on regardless.
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If you're not Korean, it will probably be impossible for you to understand how the system works in Korea. Everything here exists in one form or another to make very few greedy and powerful people rich, while raping everyone else's pocket. And it is done in the name of the system. What's with you and Kespa? Have they got to you too?
Sorry, you don't need to be Korean to understand companies exist for the sole virtue of fattening the wallets of powerful stockholders. And? Welcome to the world.
Kespa provides infrastructure for the proscene. Nothing more, nothing less. Find me a thriving competitive scene of any kind spectator sport that doesn't have a centralized institution which is fun and hip to hate.
Yes, I understand big business sucks ok? Seriously, I find it ironic your lecturing me. However, it beats the alternative, just a bunch of leagues and teams bumbling around in the dark trying to organize televised events.
Now I'm not saying Kespa couldn't be better, I'd really love to see them crash and burn and have someone replace them. But at the same time, its pretty unarguable they did contribute a lot to making BW what it is today, and if they collapsed now with no replacement, so would the BW scene.
And wtf are you talking about drugs? What are you, 12?
You're the one who brought up criminal organizations. Speak for yourself kid. It was your analogy that really made no sense. You compared Kespa to criminal organizations, which really just reinforces my point that its a necessary and beneficial in relation to its market (starcraft and crime)
This is exactly the kind of bullshit mentality thats wrong with SC2 right now. You're right. Thats completely right.
Now what the fuck happens when the next "big thing" happens? Craft of Stars 7. Oh right. The new game is saturated with money by corporate interest, pros shift over for monetary gain, and the players follow because well, what choice do they have? Be left to languish in dieing forums in a motley skeleton crew?
That isn't Esports, thats just the continuation of the serialization driven video game industry that is increasingly failing to produce anything of actual quality.
Welcome to the NBA/NHL/NFL/MLB.
They are paid athletes for sure. But LOL, wouldn't you like to get paid 300k a year to play as a bench warmer for the lakers and take garbage minutes for derek fisher etc..?
It's unfortunate that these progamers might be fucked over in a sense, but hey... did they really think the average of height of basketball players 20 years ago could only be like 6'3"? the game evolves and so do the sponsors that want stronger/faster/taller players etc... the game evolves and the players need to adapt if they want to continue making money doing something they like.
Did you quote the wrong guy or something? I don't really get your posts relevance at all. Maybe you meant to quote someone who was comparing Kespa to the Mafia?
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On September 04 2010 15:37 ~Matthias wrote:
Asians dont have the body for physically intense sports.
So they watch games of the mind instead.
Here in the western world were much more physical, and aggressive. E-Sports will never be as big here as it is over across the sea, because there is much more "exciting" things to watch.
lol, so im guessing baseball, and soccer aren't intense physical sports. generalizing is bad. can i generalize that in north american schools, students are taught to generalize and are thus ignorant? ^^
i also kind of forgot that karate, judo, taekwondo, muay thai were sorta of developed as fighting sports. how can that NOT be aggressive.
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I don't agree that SC2 needs BW. I can understand where the OP is coming from and that BW nostalgia will last forever^^, but I am getting a little bit sick of all of the BW - SC2 threads lately.
Soley because the last 2 years in BW were highly boring, dominated by 2 practice macro machines, without any sign of personality (Flash/Jaedong). I am also really getting sick of the player interviews. Once you have read one, you know them all, because they are all the same (Glad to have achieved victory, will train hard for the next round/ Sorry that I didnt achieve victory, will train harder for the next tournament). It feels so boring, so old, so dead.
Then there was also the matchfixing scandal, which I bet was only the tip of the iceberg. Kespa always pissed me off and I guess they wont get any better.
The only times I actually watched BW lately, was when I was in Korea, but that is a whole different thing.
All in all, whatever happens, I hope SC2 can be a reset button for the boredom that BW was lately. And so far it succeded in that aspect. At least for me.
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On September 04 2010 15:40 Solai wrote:
I don't agree that SC2 needs BW. I can understand where the OP is coming from and that BW nostalgia will last forever^^, but I am getting a little bit sick of all of the BW - SC2 threads lately.
Soley because the last 2 years in BW were highly boring, dominated by 2 practice macro machines, without any sign of personality (Flash/Jaedong). I am also really getting sick of the player interviews. Once you have read one, you know them all, because they are all the same (Glad to have achieved victory, will train hard for the next round/ Sorry that I didnt achieve victory, will train harder for the next tournament). It feels so boring, so old, so dead.
Then there was also the matchfixing scandal, which I bet was only the tip of the iceberg. Kespa always pissed me off and I guess they wont get any better.
The only times I actually watched BW lately, was when I was in Korea, but that is a whole different thing.
All in all, whatever happens, I hope SC2 can be a reset button for the boredom that BW was lately. And so far it succeded in that aspect. At least for me.
if Jaedong bores you , the present SC2 play might put you in a coma.
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On September 04 2010 15:39 threehundred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 15:37 ~Matthias wrote:
Asians dont have the body for physically intense sports.
So they watch games of the mind instead.
Here in the western world were much more physical, and aggressive. E-Sports will never be as big here as it is over across the sea, because there is much more "exciting" things to watch. lol, so im guessing baseball, and soccer aren't intense physical sports. generalizing is bad. can i generalize that in north american schools, students are taught to generalize and are thus ignorant? ^^ i also kind of forgot that karate, judo, taekwondo, muay thai were sorta of developed as fighting sports. how can that NOT be aggressive.
Yeah. Sure those are aggressive.
But whens the last time you saw two koreans beating each other into unconsciousness. Apparently thats what we find entertaining here. (MMA) Or football. Or boxing. Or hockey.
Maybe I should have rephrased my original post, because looking back I see all of these as sports where its required to come into physical contact to play
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On September 04 2010 15:37 ~Matthias wrote:
Asians don't have the body for physically aggressive sports.
![[image loading]](http://blog.badmotorfinger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/bolo-yeung.jpg)
This guy would like to disagree with you.
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Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 15:39 Half wrote:
If you're not Korean, it will probably be impossible for you to understand how the system works in Korea. Everything here exists in one form or another to make very few greedy and powerful people rich, while raping everyone else's pocket. And it is done in the name of the system. What's with you and Kespa? Have they got to you too? Sorry, you don't need to be Korean to understand companies exist for the sole virtue of fattening the wallets of powerful stockholders. And? Welcome to the world. Kespa provides infrastructure for the proscene. Nothing more, nothing less. Find me a thriving competitive scene of any kind spectator sport that doesn't have a centralized institution which is fun and hip to hate. Yes, I understand big business sucks ok? Seriously, I find it ironic your lecturing me. However, it beats the alternative, just a bunch of leagues and teams bumbling around in the dark trying to organize televised events. Now I'm not saying Kespa couldn't be better, I'd really love to see them crash and burn and have someone replace them. But at the same time, its pretty unarguable they did contribute a lot to making BW what it is today, and if they collapsed now with no replacement, so would the BW scene. You're the one who brought up criminal organizations. Speak for yourself kid. It was your analogy that really made no sense. You compared Kespa to criminal organizations, which really just reinforces my point that its a necessary and beneficial in relation to its market (starcraft and crime)
You do understand the concept of extortion, right? Making threats and robbing money from already underfunded business owners?
You do understand the fact that criminal organizations do stuff other than just drug trade?
Seriously, is that your view of the world? Every criminal organizations in the world shipping drug mules? Is that the extent of your 'analogy'?
I'd really love to see them crash and burn and have someone replace them.
End of story. No buts or ifs. Thanks for ending your own argument.
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On September 04 2010 15:48 ~Matthias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 15:39 threehundred wrote:On September 04 2010 15:37 ~Matthias wrote:
Asians dont have the body for physically intense sports.
So they watch games of the mind instead.
Here in the western world were much more physical, and aggressive. E-Sports will never be as big here as it is over across the sea, because there is much more "exciting" things to watch. lol, so im guessing baseball, and soccer aren't intense physical sports. generalizing is bad. can i generalize that in north american schools, students are taught to generalize and are thus ignorant? ^^ i also kind of forgot that karate, judo, taekwondo, muay thai were sorta of developed as fighting sports. how can that NOT be aggressive. Yeah. Sure those are aggressive. But whens the last time you saw two koreans beating each other into unconsciousness. Apparently thats what we find entertaining here. (MMA) Or football. Or boxing. Or hockey. Maybe I should have rephrased my original post, because looking back I see all of these as sports where its required to come into physical contact to play
Dude ... you mentioned MMA. In Japan before the Yakuza scandals Pride was way bigger than UFC is now.
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ahahah ...this SCII fanboys...
sorry but you really think because there is a stupid random tournament with 170k prize money this game is a success or just near 2 be?
they just throw money at SCII cause its new. now wait till the next big game is announced. and u will see the same shit that happened with Wc3 happening with SCII.
everyone is like "woh new game woh i lose interest in SCII" and bam the next game is out (lets say wc4) and everyone is throwing money at Wc4. and it will go on like that.
If you want SCII to become a success you need korea (right now) because no one else on this freaking world someone cares so much about esports if u get real salarys and not some stupid 2k or whatsoever. wher eu RLLY can make a good living out of it. so u can talk about the game being a success but not because some people throwing money at a game which is in a stupid hype mode.
if it goes on like that wait 3 4 5 yeras till Wc4 SC3 or whatsoever comes out and u will people throwing money at the new game and dont care anymore about SCII.
but go on keep thinking short term money throwing is a success. it will end like wc3 if it goes on like that.
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End of story. No buts or ifs. Thanks for ending your own argument.
I'm sorry, but you're inconceivably dumb :/ . We are not discussing whether or not Kespa is the perfect system. We are discussing whether or not, throughout their history, have made a net positive or negative effect on the scene. Have you forgotten what the hell we were talking about?
You do understand the concept of extortion, right? Making threats and robbing money from already underfunded business owners?
You do understand the fact that criminal organizations do stuff other than just drug trade?
Seriously, is that your view of the world? Every criminal organizations in the world shipping drug mules? Is that the extent of your 'analogy'?
Look. This is isn't complicated Criminal Organizations is to crime as Kespa is to Starcraft 2 I was using drugs as an example. Ever heard of one?
And criminal organizations make crime "better", and more efficient, as does, Kespa, using unethical means, but unethical on different scales (one in relationship to business, the other in relationship to crime)
If you had a point somewhere else in this stream of incoherency you produce, its entirely irrelevant because this debate is not about the morality of Kespa, but whether or not they are a net benefit to the development of progaming. Perhaps you were saying because the business model of Kespa resembles an extortion racket. Even if it did, which it doesn't, it would be entirely fucking irrelevant because this is not a debate about ethics.
Seriously, is that your view of the world? Every criminal organizations in the world shipping drug mules? Is that the extent of your 'analogy'?
Every criminal organization exists to make profit in an illicit means. This is predominately done through drugs, illegal pharmaceuticals, arms sales and cybercrimes. Extortion rackets are actually probably the least effective monymaker for criminal organizations, but rather, exist to maintain power over an area and express dominance. .
In fact, after rereading your first post your the one who seems to not have any idea what you are talking about. Instead of using the blanket term "criminal organization", which could refer to anything, you could have used "extortion racket". Which would have resulted in you making a completely irrelevant, but coherent, post.
Sorry but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.talking about in relation to anything.
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On September 04 2010 15:57 Grezi wrote:
If you want SCII to become a success you need korea (right now)
I disagree. Korea served as the pilot business model for esports. I'm pretty sure there are investors looking for media companies to televise ESport games for the new influx generation of 'cyber people' thus starting the business model. I believe the trick is, are there actual 'cyber people' that want televised games and game networks? The answer is yes I suppose. Just like people that pay to watch something pay-per-view or going to a live event with front row seats and all, the 'entertainment' value is something that is experienced, as why you can only say appreciate basketball to fanatic level if you actually play basketball and understand the skills/players behind the teams.
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On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL).
I think this is the point that resonates most to me...the OP makes great points and it's in Blizz's best interest to gain a good foothold for SC2 in Korea. That's because a successful e-sport really boils down to success in this country. There is no chance in hell e-sports will get as big in the west as BW is in Korea at least not in SC2's lifetime. Try to picture a large crowd of North American middle aged adults watching a match of SC2 or bringing their kids to a match of SC2....or teenage girls bringing signs to cheer on their favorite players. If your actually familiar with American culture the image of this is so outrageous you can't even picture it without LoLing. Koreans actually embraced this game as the equivalent of a sport, while 90% of people in the west still think video games in general are a waste of time. So how can people seriously expect e-sports to be as huge a success here as in Korea?
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On September 04 2010 16:05 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL). I think this is the point that resonates most to me...the OP makes great points and it's in Blizz's best interest to gain a good foothold for SC2 in Korea. That's because a successful e-sport really boils down to success in this country. There is no chance in hell e-sports will get as big in the west as BW is in Korea at least not in SC2's lifetime. Try to picture a large crowd of North American middle aged adults watching a match of SC2 or bringing their kids to a match of SC2....or teenage girls bringing signs to cheer on their favorite players. If your actually familiar with American culture the image of this is so outrageous you can't even picture it without LoLing. Koreans actually embraced this game as the equivalent of a sport, while 90% of people in the west still think video games in general are a waste of time. So how can people seriously expect e-sports to be as huge a success here as in Korea?
On non-video game nerds. I think the fame and media attention that these players are getting excites enough people. To be a successful gamer is awesome. To be a successful gamer made popular in the media is awesomer! (attracts the 'omg celebrity person' crowd) To be a successful gamer/popular and be as HANDSOME AS BISU is AWESOMEST! (attracts that have my protoss babies crowd)
To attract non-sc2 people to sc2 events, you simply need to be a local celebrity.
triple edit: if lebron james that wasn't a 6'8" CRAZY good basketball player and make 100trillion would many women (or men) actually be interested in him right away?
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On September 04 2010 16:02 Half wrote:I'm sorry, but you're inconceivably dumb :/ . We are not discussing whether or not Kespa is the perfect system. We are discussing whether or not, throughout their history, have made a net positive or negative effect on the scene. Have you forgotten what the hell we were talking about? Show nested quote +You do understand the concept of extortion, right? Making threats and robbing money from already underfunded business owners?
You do understand the fact that criminal organizations do stuff other than just drug trade?
Seriously, is that your view of the world? Every criminal organizations in the world shipping drug mules? Is that the extent of your 'analogy'? You are just so incredibly dense. Criminal Organizations is to crime as Kespa is to Starcraft 2 I was using drugs as an example. Ever heard of one? And criminal organizations make crime "better", and more efficient, as does, Kespa, using unethical means, but unethical on different scales (one in relationship to business, the other in relationship to killing people) If you had a point somewhere else in this stream of incoherency you produce, its entirely irrelevant because this debate is not about the morality of Kespa, but whether or not they are a net benefit to the development of progaming.
Who's being 'inconceivably dumb' here? Let me give you a hint because you're not getting it: YOU.
And criminal organizations make crime "better", and more efficient, as does, Kespa, using unethical means, but unethical on different scales (one in relationship to business, the other in relationship to killing people)
Are you fucking kidding me?
And criminal organizations make crime "better", and more efficient, as does, Kespa, using unethical means
You're either 'inconceivably dumb' or too young to understand the concept of 'shift of wealth'. You just now basically said yourself Kespa is pocking all the money for themselves while the players are standing naked in a coke filled room packaging them while their lungs witter away.
How is taking away from players, organizers, networks as much as possible for the sole profit of their own organization beneficial for the scene?
What a thick-head.
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I would argue that old BW players who think that new players know nothing about what new players think 'success' means in e-sports are the ones being naive. Being an SC2 fan and being knowledgeable about and appreciative of BW aren't mutually exclusive. This BW vs SC2 tribalism is divisive and destructive.
BW is a great sport because the level of play is so high, not because dragoons are better than stalkers. We can have that level of play in SC2 if the top players move over. BW is going to die and SC2 is the only heir to the throne. BW die hards need to acknowledge that and show their support for SC2. It can be a great game, too.
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You're either retarded or too young to understand the concept of 'shift of wealth'. You just now basically said yourself Kespa is pocking all the money for themselves while the players are standing naked in a coke filled room packaging them while their lungs witter away.
How is taking away from players, organizers, networks as much as possible for the sole profit of their own organization works for the scene?
What a thick-head.
You just now basically said yourself Kespa is pocking all the money for themselves while the players are standing naked in a coke filled room packaging them while their lungs witter away.
Please outline where I said that.
Yes, Kespa makes a profit off its services. I don't understand why your trying to bring in the ethics of their business into a debate about their contributions to the Starcraft scene.
Plus your analogy still makes no fucking sense. What exactly is "Criminal Organizations" relationship to Kespa? Their business model? You realize criminal organization is not synonymous with "extortion racket right?
How is taking away from players, organizers, networks as much as possible for the sole profit of their own organization works for the scene
What the fuck are you talking about? They take a cut, and the rest is used to organize and advertise esports.
Your Criminal Organization analogy is literally incoherent in every single way.
If Criminal Organizations are to crime the same way Kespa is to Starcraft, then its a benefit. (which is what I thought you meant at first)
If you meant extortion rackets (not synonymous with criminals organizations fyi) is to society as Kespa is to Starcraft, then it just makes no fucking sense because Extortion rackets do not take "cuts". They do not use a portion the money they coerce to organize or better the thing they're "extorting" from. On the other hand, the money Kespa Coerces, obviously a lot of that is for profit, but they also use it to support what they're actually doing, providing a central organization for esports.
please, learn to construct coherent analogies before using them.
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On September 04 2010 16:13 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
BW is a great sport because the level of play is so high, not because dragoons are better than stalkers. We can have that level of play in SC2 if the top players move over. BW is going to die and SC2 is the only heir to the throne. BW die hards need to acknowledge that and show their support for SC2. It can be a great game, too.
Why should they move over? You've said yourself in an earlier post that Brood War is an incredibly deep and complex game. Why should thousands of fans and players move over to a newer game that is noticeably shallower and less exciting to watch (watching Idra fend off Morrow's reapers doesn't hold a candle to Flash defending Jaedong's mutalisks, sorry)? Because it's new and shiny? Because Blizz is trying to shove it down our throats?
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In fact, after rereading your first post your the one who seems to not have any idea what you are talking about. Instead of using the blanket term "criminal organization", which could refer to anything, you could have used "extortion racket". Which would have resulted in you making a completely irrelevant, but coherent, post.
Sorry but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.talking about in relation to anything.
Your word against mine. YOU have no idea. You're not even Korean. I grew up here, I know how the politicians are, I know how these organizations work, and it must be a great feeling when you think you know what you're talking about after watching 'loose change' documentary for 10 minutes.
This place is a harsh place for people without power, buddy. People can lose their livelihood just for speaking against the dear LMB. You seriously have NO idea what you're talking about.
Are they absolutely brutal on a scale incomparable with kespa? Yes. Do they exist for a very damn good reason and do great "benefit" tot he Drug Trade? Yes. Trust me, your pot would triple in price if it weren't for them.
Please outline where I said 'drug' before you did.
What the fuck are you talking about? They take a cut, and the rest is used to organize and advertise esports.
do you even know how much MBC and OGN makes, and how much Kespa took? Do you?
You babble and babble but nothing comes out of it. Why?
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On September 04 2010 16:13 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
I would argue that old BW players who think that new players know nothing about what new players think 'success' means in e-sports are the ones being naive. Being an SC2 fan and being knowledgeable about and appreciative of BW aren't mutually exclusive. This BW vs SC2 tribalism is divisive and destructive.
BW is a great sport because the level of play is so high, not because dragoons are better than stalkers. We can have that level of play in SC2 if the top players move over. BW is going to die and SC2 is the only heir to the throne. BW die hards need to acknowledge that and show their support for SC2. It can be a great game, too.
BW is going to die because it is forced to do so. The organization and community around is still very much intact compared to SC2.
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Your Criminal Organization analogy is literally incoherent in every single way.
If Criminal Organizations are to crime the same way Kespa is to Starcraft, then its a benefit. (which is what I thought you meant at first)
If you meant extortion rackets (not synonymous with criminals organizations fyi) is to society as Kespa is to Starcraft, then it just makes no fucking sense because Extortion rackets do not take "cuts". They do not use a portion the money they coerce to organize or better the thing they're "extorting" from. On the other hand, the money Kespa Coerces, obviously a lot of that is for profit, but they also use it to support what they're actually doing, providing a central organization for esports.
please, learn to construct coherent analogies before using them.
I don't think you're even able to construct your own thoughts in a coherent manner.
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Your word against mine. YOU have no idea. You're not even Korean. I grew up here, I know how the politicians are, I know how these organizations work, and it must be a great feeling when you think you know what you're talking about after watching 'loose change' documentary for 10 minutes.
This place is a harsh place for people without power, buddy. People can lose their livelihood just for speaking against the dear LMB. You seriously have NO idea what you're talking about.
What the fuck are you talking about? All I'm saying is your analogy makes no fucking sense because you apparently used the general word "criminal organization" instead of "extortion racket".
I'm not talking about korea at all. wtf. And when I did talk about Korea, I agreed with whatever the fuck you were saying, and told you it was irrelevent. Maybe I'm being harsh cuz your Korean and your english comprehension isn't that great, in which case I apologize.
But that comment is literally the definition of a non siquitar :/.
Please outline where I said 'drug' before you did.
You said criminal organization, which includes the drug trade, so I thought you meant, you know, criminal organizations. Perhaps you meant "extortion racket".
What the fuck are you talking about? They take a cut, and the rest is used to organize and advertise esports.
do you even know how much MBC and OGN makes, and how much Kespa took? Do you?
You babble and babble but nothing comes out of it. Why?
A lot? 50% 80% So what? What the fuck are you exactly say?
If you think thats unethical, ok, but we are not debating ethics you. You are bringing up entirely irrelevant points. Are you arguing that cut stymies the growth of BW tournaments?
I don't think you're even able to construct your own thoughts in a coherent manner.
Has it ever occurred to you that you just can't read? Or think in a coherent fashion?
This is what I was attempting to communicate, in case you are still confused.
First of all, you appeared to have confused
Criminal Organization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_organization
with
Extortion Racket
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion
Which lead me to make other examples of Criminal Organizations which you responded with confusion to. (drugs, etc)
Assuming you did mean "Kespa is an Extortion Racket", it would be retarded, because extortion rackets simply extort without providing any forced services in return, while Kespa does indeed provide some amount of service. The amount of service they provide is debatable, but completely irrelevant to the comments you made comparing them to an "criminal organization" (Extortion Racket)?
Man i can't believe I need to explain to you your own opinions. wtf.
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Well written, but too biased.
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On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
If a kid is potentially good enough to play this game for a living, he needs to know that the league he wants to play in will still be there down the road. Otherwise, it simply doesn’t make any sense to practice it.
Which means that if BW is killed off at ten years, it sets a terrible precedent for all of esports. BW was the game that defied the yearly/bi-yearly cycle of video games. Every year, BW reappeared on tv, and the players got better and better. Even today, we cannot be sure that players have hit the skill and mental ceiling for BW. Kids like Jaedong, and Flash, Action and BaBy played the game through their teens, and were able to catch up after many years to the top players. Eventually, Flash and Jaedong would age, and they would be replaced by other players. If this doesn’t happen, then esports has been proven to be a useless venture, and one that cannot last. Which kids will play Sc2 with the dream of playing among the best players, if they know the game they’ve invested so much time into will promptly be washed away by Warcraft 4, or Starcraft 3? Which sponsors will put down money to help a league that will be ancient history in a few short years?
This is a really important point. I feel like a lot of starcraft players aren't really sports fans, and therefore don't understand how important stability and history is in order for an e-sport to flourish.
Yes an E-Sport must be treated like a real sport, not like a game, imagine what would happen if the rules of soccer were changed completely every year, soccer would probably be dead.
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On September 04 2010 16:31 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
Your word against mine. YOU have no idea. You're not even Korean. I grew up here, I know how the politicians are, I know how these organizations work, and it must be a great feeling when you think you know what you're talking about after watching 'loose change' documentary for 10 minutes.
This place is a harsh place for people without power, buddy. People can lose their livelihood just for speaking against the dear LMB. You seriously have NO idea what you're talking about.
What the fuck are you talking about? All I'm saying is your analogy makes no fucking sense because you apparently used the general word "criminal organization" instead of "extortion racket". I'm not talking about korea at all. wtf. Seriously. Maybe I'm being harsh cuz your Korean and your english comprehension isn't that great, in which case I apologize. You said criminal organization, which includes the drug trade, so I thought you meant, you know, criminal organizations. Perhaps you meant "extortion racket". Show nested quote +What the fuck are you talking about? They take a cut, and the rest is used to organize and advertise esports.
do you even know how much MBC and OGN makes, and how much Kespa took? Do you?
You babble and babble but nothing comes out of it. Why?
A lot? 50% 80% So what? What the fuck are you exactly say? If you think thats unethical, ok, but we are not debating ethics you twat. You are bringing up entirely irrelevant points. Are you arguing that cut stymies the growth of BW tournaments?
I thought you said criminal organization, which includes the drug trade, so I thought you meant, you know, criminal organizations. Perhaps you meant "extortion racket", too.
Maybe I'm being harsh cuz your Korean and your english comprehension isn't that great, in which case I apologize.
You too speak English quite well for a mentally challenged person. At least I get to say English is my second language.
If you think thats unethical, ok, but we are not debating ethics you twat. You are bringing up I'm not debating ethics. I'm stating Kespa is worthless and there will be better organizations to take place and all the points made against it are wrong and uninformed. The end.
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im not gonna lie, i only skimmed the article as it is quite late. but if bw dies isn't their a chance that sc2 will be picked up quicker by esports? at first there wasnt much of a point to pick up sc2 as it is quite young, most pros have invested huge amounts of time in sc1, and the infrastructure is designed for sc1 (lan tourneys etc). if it becomes physically impossible to broadcast sc1 as an esport, but you can get sc2 for the same amount of work wouldnt you switch to sc2?..
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Do you guys know the story of Guild Wars? Guild Wars had a thriving pvp scene and decent player base for a good time. The game was very fun and tournaments were regularly held. The top teams were indeed Korean (War Machine and I forget the other one). Slightly below them were many other teams that were highly competitive but just couldn't beat the champions. Then came some huge blunder by Arena.net which caused the best Korean teams to pull out of Guild Wars. Shortly after the vacuum, the European teams (the next tier in terms of competitiveness) stopped playing as well. Now Guild Wars is pretty much barren.
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I thought you said criminal organization, which includes the drug trade, so I thought you meant, you know, criminal organizations. Perhaps you meant "extortion racket", too.
Yes, I did mean the criminal organization. So why the fuck were you so confused for the last ten posts?
At least I get to say English is my second language.
Same here bro, except I don't suck at it.
I'm not debating ethics. I'm stating Kespa is worthless and there will be better organizations to take place and all the points made against it are wrong and uninformed. The end.
By comparing them to Organized Crime which is a vital component of crime on a larger scale. Which I stated on my first post, and you responded with ten completely irrelevant non siquitars which failed to express a single thought.
What...The...Fuck.
I'm not sure the breadth of your understanding, but this is not a coherent argument
"Kespa is worthless as a company because its business practices has some resemblances with organized crime".
This is a coherent argument
"Kespa is unethical because its business practices has some resemblances with organized crime".
However, as you said, we are not talking about that.
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Ah, Wiki-stage. Where desperate uninformed subjects hastily finds some vague internet reference sources to silence the opponents.
Let's see what we have here.
"Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups"
So where's the confusion?
Assuming you did mean "Kespa is an Extortion Racket", it would be retarded, because extortion rackets simply extort without providing any forced services in return, while Kespa does indeed provide some amount of service. The amount of service they provide is debatable, but completely irrelevant to the comments you made comparing them to an "criminal organization" (Extortion Racket)?
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year.
Why so thick-headed? Having fun smelling Kespa's gorge?
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Same here bro, except I don't suck at it.
First of all, I'm not your 'bro', and secondly, you do. Thx.
I'm not sure the breadth of your understanding,
You know, I feel bad for you to go full Ad-hominem here but you're lack of intelligence just warrants it. You're not able to understand it because your brain can't comprehend what is sensible and correct.
"Kespa is worthless as a company because its business practices has some resemblances with organized crime".
This is a coherent argument
"Kespa is unethical because its business practices has some resemblances with organized crime".
This is where your lack of understanding in Korean culture and social mood really shows. They ARE organized like criminal organizations, and they ARE criminal organizations. They sold licensing rights to game they didn't own (illegally) for YEARS and they did it by forcing the networks to pay while holding the players as hostage.
What don't you understand here? Please don't go full retard, buddy.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Ah, Wiki-stage. Where desperate uninformed subjects hastily finds some vague internet reference sources to silence the opponents.
Let's see what we have here.
"Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups"
So where's the confusion?
....Because I was not aware you were only SPECIFICALLY talking about Extortion Rackets, which seems to be the implication of you post. Instead, I thought were saying Kespa, in general, was structured like a criminal organization, and that somehow made it inherently bad.
Are you really that retarded or are you just trying to troll? You say "Kespa is like a criminal organization" and you somehow expect me to magically know you were saying "Kespa is like a criminal organization's extortion racket".
Ah, Wiki-stage. Where desperate uninformed subjects hastily finds some vague internet reference sources to silence the opponents.
Jesus christ. I pulled those pages to show YOU because you're so dense. I don't even see why I would need a page on extortion or criminal organizations in this argument.
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year.
Why so thick-headed? Having fun smelling Kespa's gorge?
So you are now changing your argument to Kespa runs an extortion racket. Why did it take you ten posts to communicate a single fucking thought? Seriously?
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year.
Why so thick-headed? Having fun smelling Kespa's gorge?
You just communicated the thought that Kespa paid services are worthless because they are extortion, and it is extortion because its paid services are worthless.
srsly bro? Srsly?
lols.
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Also would you stop going around posting common knowledge like your the only one who knew? Its very annoying.
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5930 Posts
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year.
I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting.
I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts.
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On September 04 2010 16:56 Half wrote:
You just said Kespa paid services are worthless because it runs an extortion racket, and it runs an extortion racket because its paid services are worthless.
Quote me on where I say that, buddy. I dare you.
Also would you stop going around posting common knowledge like your the only one who knew? Its very annoying.
Thanks for acting like unaware mentally-challenged person until I told you that. Maybe you were really unaware until I told you that.
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On September 04 2010 16:13 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
I would argue that old BW players who think that new players know nothing about what new players think 'success' means in e-sports are the ones being naive. Being an SC2 fan and being knowledgeable about and appreciative of BW aren't mutually exclusive. This BW vs SC2 tribalism is divisive and destructive.
BW is a great sport because the level of play is so high, not because dragoons are better than stalkers. We can have that level of play in SC2 if the top players move over. BW is going to die and SC2 is the only heir to the throne. BW die hards need to acknowledge that and show their support for SC2. It can be a great game, too.
I agree somewhat... I think what's really needed for the longevity of the scene is a successful, predictable and repeatable transitions. Maybe SC2 won't ever be exciting enough for some people, and that in it of itself is a problematic issue for eSports. Just as Street Fighter 2 could not be the headliner in a major tournament 20 years after its debut, it will be more and more difficult to sustain BW I think.
What Blizzard and any organization needs to do is somehow figure out a way for the scene to smoothly transition games, teams, players. It doesn't do anyone any favors when BW is forced to close down, nor is it a good if sequels can never succeed.
I am not saying it needs to happen now, and maybe SC2 will never be good enough, I don't know. I really don't think a single game can last forever, and it'd be great to be assured continuity in some way.
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i knew this thread would just be full of people trashing bw. there are some great points in the OP and it was a really nice read.
the real conflict is that GOM believes that kespa is a huge barrier to the GSL's success and they aren't wrong. maybe they expect sc2 to fill the void if bw is killed off? seems kind of risky to me. they're just going to be seen as the villains in all of this.
it took blood sweat and tears to make esports what it is today, it's very presumptuous of them to think they can come in with a ton of money and some publicity to try to uproot bw.
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to be honest i am completely uninterested in SCBW anymore
its actions the past year has shown me its nothing but corrupt and needing to be put down
the problem is its trying to throw its weight arround and hinder the development of the next generation of games
its very disrespectful to its legacy that their actions as of late is what we will remember it for
shows VERY poor judgement
if they want to continue operating they needed to change and accept new things
but now all i wait is for all intrest in the game to die and for them to stop messing with its predecessor
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On September 04 2010 17:01 gaggar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 16:56 Half wrote:
You just said Kespa paid services are worthless because it runs an extortion racket, and it runs an extortion racket because its paid services are worthless.
Quote me on where I say that, buddy. I dare you.
ok
By funding I hope you meant raping millions of dollars off of 2 broadcasting networks every year.
By organizing I hope you meant sending in few judges and observers and calling it a day.
By popularizing it I hope you meant taking the credit off of star players who worked their asses off like Boxer, Nada, Oov, reach, yellow, and dozens of others.
If Kespa hadn't been so greedy, OSL and MSL prize money could have been in 5 digits, not 4.
You don't seem to understand how criminal organizations work.
Hint: They work like Kespa.
Kespa=Does nothing but extort people.
then
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year.
Why so thick-headed? Having fun smelling Kespa's gorge?
Kespa=Extorts because they ask money but still don't do anything
wut brilliant reasoning.
Look I'll tell you why this is broken. It broke because your attempting to apply ethical reasoning into something that doesn't intrinsically involve ethics.
Kespa, does in fact, charge exorbitant, even unethical, amounts of money, for what they do. I'll readily concede that. And you can bet that most of that just goes into rich mens pockets. That doesn't change the fact however, that they still do stuff, regardless of how inefficient, and all things considered, they have pretty easily contributed with a net positive.
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I don't see anybody defining what they mean by success. SC 2 may be sucessful if you define it as having some small tournaments that are watched by.some people online. If you define successful as starting where BW left off and growing beyond that then no they can't be successful without Korea. If they don't do a 180 in their negotiations with Kespa then SC 2 will not be successful in Korea. Blizzard may not like it and you may not like it but Kespa will be able to keep SC 2 from becoming a successful e-sport in Korea.
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This thread sucks now. >:[
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On September 04 2010 16:48 gaggar wrote:Ah, Wiki-stage. Where desperate uninformed subjects hastily finds some vague internet reference sources to silence the opponents. Let's see what we have here. "Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups"So where's the confusion? Show nested quote +
Assuming you did mean "Kespa is an Extortion Racket", it would be retarded, because extortion rackets simply extort without providing any forced services in return, while Kespa does indeed provide some amount of service. The amount of service they provide is debatable, but completely irrelevant to the comments you made comparing them to an "criminal organization" (Extortion Racket)?
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know. Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. Why so thick-headed? Having fun smelling Kespa's gorge?
Could you two please stop hijacking this thread with all your flames and ramblings about unimportant things.
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On September 04 2010 16:58 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting. I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts.
http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=2&dirId=20204&docId=40241639&qb=7LyA7Iqk7YyMIDE37Ja1&enc=utf8§ion=kin&rank=4&search_sort=0&spq=0
It was a big news during 2007 when Kespa openly demanded around 170,000,000 KRW for both channels respectively. So that's roughly about 1.7m, not 17m like I remembered, but still a lot of money for companies on a barefoot like OGN.
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On September 04 2010 13:27 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
(...)
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
(...)
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded. Why would SC2 fare better with BW alive? Would the audience continue watching BW, migrate to SC2, or enjoy both? Why is only Korea relevant to the development of e-Sports? What about the storm clouds converging over the BW scene, with coaches resigning/being fired, teams attempting to disband and match-fixing scandals? Does this not merit to consider the possibility that the BW scene is rotting from within? What about the players and commentators who've made a smooth transition to the SC2 scene- more top-level foreigners than you can count, Tester, JulyZerg, Day[9], and the rise of new commentators in HD and Husky among others? What about the SC2 teams and training houses already setting up shop in Korea? Why should the SC2 fans care that the BW scene is hemorrhaging talent, if that talent is migrating straight to SC2? What about all the WC3 pros who are migrating to SC2, and from other strategy games as well- like fan-favorite TLO coming from having played Supreme Commander? Your post is made from a BW perspective. You don't seem to be in touch with the SC2 scene- or if you are, you don't reflect that in your post. All in all, I completely disagree with your conclusions; I see no reason why SC2 cannot succeed if BW dies. All this stuff about wc3-pros going over to sc2 is kinda rubbish, there are virtually no pros in wc3. SC2 is not as spectator friendly as SC1, so you thinking that breaking down the sc1 will help sc2 flurish is completely incorrect. WC3 was a kind of follow up to broodwar just like sc2 and look at where that game is now competetively. The scene is completely dead, in total it hasn't even been as popular as mods made for it, like DOTA. SC-2 will be great if Blizzard work hard at improving the game experience etc., but the problem is that they're too often too busy stuffing their pockets with money. I thought the OP's post made more sense than your did and didn't draw his conclusions as loosely.
support to the previous post: actually there are wc3 pros. but they arent that famous cause when you talk to a pc gamer(well at least here in the philippines) about wc3, the first thing that comes to their mind is DotA. but if you ask about, lets say single player, they wouldnt even know who thrall is etc. the fact that SC2 is a very young game makes it somewhat disappointing to watch. if you would look at it, its called Starcraft 2, so if you would make an analysis, it is Starcraft part 2 with better graphics and added gameplay. yet SC2 only got the better graphics part. the gameplay was freakishly dumbed down so when i watch SC2 i say "anybody can do that, why be amazed" while when i look at BW "wow how does he do that with ease?". BW is fun to watch cause it requires great skill to play, which for me, is the characteristic of the game that makes it fun. most people enjoy the game when they win, but they dont get the fact that you learn less if you win more and learn more if you win less. and the fact that its a battle between a new game played by old players vs an old game played by young players, i think we know why the old game still lives on right? =p
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On September 04 2010 17:04 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:01 gaggar wrote:On September 04 2010 16:56 Half wrote:
You just said Kespa paid services are worthless because it runs an extortion racket, and it runs an extortion racket because its paid services are worthless.
Quote me on where I say that, buddy. I dare you. ok Show nested quote +
By funding I hope you meant raping millions of dollars off of 2 broadcasting networks every year.
By organizing I hope you meant sending in few judges and observers and calling it a day.
By popularizing it I hope you meant taking the credit off of star players who worked their asses off like Boxer, Nada, Oov, reach, yellow, and dozens of others.
If Kespa hadn't been so greedy, OSL and MSL prize money could have been in 5 digits, not 4.
You don't seem to understand how criminal organizations work.
Hint: They work like Kespa.
Kespa=Does nothing but extort people. then Show nested quote +
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year.
Why so thick-headed? Having fun smelling Kespa's gorge?
Extorts because they ask money but still don't do anything wut brilliant reasoning.
Riiiiggghhhttt. Got anything else? I want to hear it.
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On September 04 2010 17:09 gaggar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 16:58 Womwomwom wrote:Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting. I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts. http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=2&dirId=20204&docId=40241639&qb=7LyA7Iqk7YyMIDE37Ja1&enc=utf8§ion=kin&rank=4&search_sort=0&spq=0It was a big news during 2007 when Kespa openly demanded around 170,000,000 KRW for both channels respectively. So that's roughly about 1.7m, not 17m like I remembered, but still a lot of money for companies on a barefoot like OGN.
Actually it is 1,700,000,000 KRW so it is 17m correctly. I was right.
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On September 04 2010 17:09 gaggar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 16:58 Womwomwom wrote:Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting. I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts. http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=2&dirId=20204&docId=40241639&qb=7LyA7Iqk7YyMIDE37Ja1&enc=utf8§ion=kin&rank=4&search_sort=0&spq=0It was a big news during 2007 when Kespa openly demanded around 170,000,000 KRW for both channels respectively. So that's roughly about 1.7m, not 17m like I remembered, but still a lot of money for companies on a barefoot like OGN.
They had demanded that money for who? Cost of operating a pro team are huge.
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On September 04 2010 17:12 gaggar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:09 gaggar wrote:On September 04 2010 16:58 Womwomwom wrote:Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting. I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts. http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=2&dirId=20204&docId=40241639&qb=7LyA7Iqk7YyMIDE37Ja1&enc=utf8§ion=kin&rank=4&search_sort=0&spq=0It was a big news during 2007 when Kespa openly demanded around 170,000,000 KRW for both channels respectively. So that's roughly about 1.7m, not 17m like I remembered, but still a lot of money for companies on a barefoot like OGN. Actually it is 1,700,000,000 KRW but it is still 1.7m
http://papercut.tistory.com/40
Other sources on the 2007 ruckus. Kespa asks 1.7m from both channels, so 3.4m in total.
At the time OGN secured shinhan sponsor and shinhan gave them 6m for 3 years, which means OGN had fund to run their entire network for 2m per year.
Taking kespa's 1.7m per year, then OGN had meager fund of 0.3m per year.
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On September 04 2010 17:12 gaggar wrote:
Actually it is 1,700,000,000 KRW so it is 17m correctly. I was right.
1.7 billion won is 1.45 million usd.
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On September 04 2010 17:14 Polis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:09 gaggar wrote:On September 04 2010 16:58 Womwomwom wrote:Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting. I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts. http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=2&dirId=20204&docId=40241639&qb=7LyA7Iqk7YyMIDE37Ja1&enc=utf8§ion=kin&rank=4&search_sort=0&spq=0It was a big news during 2007 when Kespa openly demanded around 170,000,000 KRW for both channels respectively. So that's roughly about 1.7m, not 17m like I remembered, but still a lot of money for companies on a barefoot like OGN. They had demanded that money for who? Cost of operating a pro team are huge.
Cost of running the official team comes from respective company's official bank.
Kespa's fund expenditures are kept hidden.
Kespa does not advertise BWPL, Kespa hires very few people. Kespa spends very little.
Whereabouts of rest of the money? Your guess.
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5930 Posts
So what prevented OGN and MBC from simply saying "no"? That is a significant amount of money if what you, and those sources, are true. I don't imagine MBC and On Media are so weak that they basically had to take it up the ass.
Also isn't Kespa basically run by the proteam sponsors (KT, SKT, etc)?
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On September 04 2010 17:19 Tyrio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:12 gaggar wrote:
Actually it is 1,700,000,000 KRW so it is 17m correctly. I was right. 1.7 billion won is 1.45 million usd.
Bah, okay. fixing. I always get that damn thing confused.
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ay, sky is falling, lets hold hands now and beg for forgiveness, we can keep the cancer alive!
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Riiiiggghhhttt. Got anything else? I want to hear it.
lol, got trolled into some hour long argument with some semi-retard guy when I was trying to get work done.
dammit.
1.7 billion won is 1.45 million usd.
So we went from 17 million to 1.45 million.
Man I got trolled really hard didn't I.
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On September 04 2010 17:21 Womwomwom wrote:
So what prevented OGN and MBC from simply saying "no"? That is a significant amount of money if what you, and those sources, are true. I don't imagine MBC and On Media are so weak that they basically had to take it up the ass.
Also isn't Kespa basically run by the proteam sponsors (KT, SKT, etc)?
quote from the website
그리고 한국 e-sports 협회는 각 팀 감독들에게 모종의 지시를 내렸다.
12개 프로팀 중 MBC게임 팀과 온게임넷 팀을 제외한 모든 팀의 선수들이 예선현장에서 철수했다.
예선 중계를 기다리던 시청자들이 본 것은, 예선현장에서 선수들이 모두 떠나서 중계방송을 하기 어렵다는 공지사항 뿐이었다.
Kespa pulled the plug mid-season during 2007 and told every players, coach and teams to exit the leagues. The networks had to notify the viewers that the tournament was no longer able to carry on without the players.
Eventually the networks caved in and paid the 1.7m (3.4 in total)
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On September 04 2010 17:23 Half wrote:lol, got trolled into some hour long argument with some semi-retard guy when I was trying to get work done. dammit.
lol, got trolled into some hour long argument with some full-retard guy when I was trying to get work done.
Seriously if that was all you had, you're weak and not even worth the air you're breathing.
Read my post on the 2007 ruckus between the networks and kespa.
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On September 04 2010 17:20 gaggar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:14 Polis wrote:On September 04 2010 17:09 gaggar wrote:On September 04 2010 16:58 Womwomwom wrote:Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting. I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts. http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=2&dirId=20204&docId=40241639&qb=7LyA7Iqk7YyMIDE37Ja1&enc=utf8§ion=kin&rank=4&search_sort=0&spq=0It was a big news during 2007 when Kespa openly demanded around 170,000,000 KRW for both channels respectively. So that's roughly about 1.7m, not 17m like I remembered, but still a lot of money for companies on a barefoot like OGN. They had demanded that money for who? Cost of operating a pro team are huge. Cost of running the official team comes from respective company's official bank. Kespa's fund expenditures are kept hidden. Kespa does not advertise BWPL, Kespa hires very few people. Kespa spends very little. Whereabouts of rest of the money? Your guess.
Solid gold hot tubs? Cocaine and hookers? Hiring large square-jawed men used to scare people into giving them more money?
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On September 04 2010 17:05 Grond wrote:
I don't see anybody defining what they mean by success. SC 2 may be sucessful if you define it as having some small tournaments that are watched by.some people online. If you define successful as starting where BW left off and growing beyond that then no they can't be successful without Korea. If they don't do a 180 in their negotiations with Kespa then SC 2 will not be successful in Korea. Blizzard may not like it and you may not like it but Kespa will be able to keep SC 2 from becoming a successful e-sport in Korea.
Why can SC2 not be successful without korea? Counterstrike is quite successful without korea. Quake has been quite successful without korea. So far, considering SC2 is still extremely new, I would say it is quite successful.
Right now, we are entering an era in which gaming can actually achieve a higher status thanks to the internet. What limited foreign success of games before was that you had no way to watch most matches. Now that there are a lot of streams (and in the case of SC2, lots of casters), more people can watch it and see it. It is already more global than anything before.
I mean, just look at the HDH invitational. 230k views for the beta tournament. Flash vs jaedong in may (around the same time as the HDH) 70k. Flash vs jaedong from january, 112k.
More than 20k people watched the king of the beta hill tournament LIVE at midnight or way later.
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On September 04 2010 17:28 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:20 gaggar wrote:On September 04 2010 17:14 Polis wrote:On September 04 2010 17:09 gaggar wrote:On September 04 2010 16:58 Womwomwom wrote:Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting. I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts. http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=2&dirId=20204&docId=40241639&qb=7LyA7Iqk7YyMIDE37Ja1&enc=utf8§ion=kin&rank=4&search_sort=0&spq=0It was a big news during 2007 when Kespa openly demanded around 170,000,000 KRW for both channels respectively. So that's roughly about 1.7m, not 17m like I remembered, but still a lot of money for companies on a barefoot like OGN. They had demanded that money for who? Cost of operating a pro team are huge. Cost of running the official team comes from respective company's official bank. Kespa's fund expenditures are kept hidden. Kespa does not advertise BWPL, Kespa hires very few people. Kespa spends very little. Whereabouts of rest of the money? Your guess. Solid gold hot tubs? Cocaine and hookers? Hiring large square-jawed men used to scare people into giving them more money?
cocaine might have been involved, might explain thair actions as of this year
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Which kids will play Sc2 with the dream of playing among the best players, if they know the game they’ve invested so much time into will promptly be washed away by Warcraft 4, or Starcraft 3? Which sponsors will put down money to help a league that will be ancient history in a few short years?
This hits it very well, as your other points does. I am also having doubt, is it stupid of me to commit time into this game, if starcraf3 comes out and Blizzard decides to just put a death to sc2? Not only is it really bad for the players that are thinking about putting time into the game, but also sponsors and other infrastructures. They need to know that in a few years from now, the things they have put money in wont just die as fast as Blizzard wants brood war to die.
Blizzard really made a bad mistake putting brood war to death like this. They can easily co-exists, and I dont see any reason why they cant. I love to watch brood war games, and I also like to see sc2 games. In my experience, they can co-exists very well.
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You guys are arguing under the assumption that BW will die before SC2. I'll be LOLing 3 years later when all the SC2 money dries up after Blizz hypes the last expansion and moves on to WC4.
I'll still be happily watching KeSPA sponsored BW matches.
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A Korean company should make a BW clone + enhancements. Korean games do very well in Korea and Asia in general. They've already shown they can make a better WoW than Blizzard.
Blizzard owns the copyright but that doesn't exclude reimplementation as long as no Blizzard assets are used. All you SC2 fanboys who know nothing about the BW scene in Korea and think prize money automatically means esports can continue deluding yourselves that small scale disorganized tournaments are anything but a joke.
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Full summary from the website: http://papercut.tistory.com/40
-Started early 2007
- Sponsors were starting to pour in, and everything started looking peachy. The teams were popular and BW was at the height of popularity
- Kespa starts to see a profit potential in the league. They've shown their power in the past in 2005 when Kespa merged all tournaments held by OGN and MBC into just 2 leagues - OSL and MSL.
- MSL had to shut down their team league, and OGN forced to sell their PL.
- Kespa basically took and re-distributed league formats. Same sponsors, same game format - nothing changed. Kespa essentially took the commanding position away from the networks with one move.
- 2006, PL starts, seemingly successful. OGN gets some trouble holding a new sponsor. Kespa does not help on that matter. OGN eventually finds shinhan to sponsor them.
- 2007, Kespa, out of nowhere, starts an open auction on broadcasting rights for all the leagues. The price they first put up was pretty much impossible to pay for. The programming schedule as they put up for auction meant twice the matches played, and more than 5 times a week. Pretty much worth 2 network's programming.
- Both OGN and MBC refuses to buy.
- Then a company called IEG buys it off Kespa for 1.7m. IEG has no broadcasting equiptment, prior experience or knowledge to broadcast the leagues. The company literally came out of nowhere.
- IEG wants to sell the rights to OGN and MBC for twice the money (1.7m each)
- Kespa pressures OGN and MBC to buy the rights. OGN and MBC refuses again
- Kespa pulls the plug on players mid-season
- OGN, with shinhan sponsor fears for possible lawsuit. Caves in and buys the rights.
- MBC eventually follows suit.
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You people don't get what e - sports is ....
When your country's airport supports a video game by funding the bigest video game tournament ever that is e - sports . They fucking take the progamers by plane to which ever point of the world they want the tournament to be in . This is what helps popularize e - sports world wide . And to think that people are telling me that BW is not growing ...
When companies like Samsung , Wemade , CJ media , Hanbit , Hwaseung , STX , and others some of which are far bigger companies then Blizzard or Gretech will ever get sponsors a team of progamers that is e - sports .
Kespa is practically made from representatives of this companies .
When your country's military service supports a video game now that is e - sports .
Most famous players in BW are considered celebrities and not just in Korea .
Tell me how many years or decades will it take for Starcraft 2 to become this big ? I'm not talking about a 2 - 10k cash tournament somewhere or a far bigger cash tournament thrown by a company that wants a piece of Korean's e -sports success .
Why did Blizzard even have to come to Korea ? Oh yeah because of the success of BW which Blizzard casted aside , because of their next big game . If blizzard really supported BW they would have continued to make patches . I would have liked to see units like the scouts , queen , ghost actually being made by players . What makes you think that with SC2 it won't be the same . Some units are already not used like the archon which has no function rather then a leftover after the templars cast their storm .
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On September 04 2010 17:47 junkacc wrote:
A Korean company should make a BW clone + enhancements. Korean games do very well in Korea and Asia in general. They've already shown they can make a better WoW than Blizzard.
Blizzard owns the copyright but that doesn't exclude reimplementation as long as no Blizzard assets are used. All you SC2 fanboys who know nothing about the BW scene in Korea and think prize money automatically means esports can continue deluding yourselves that small scale disorganized tournaments are anything but a joke.
prize money is just another step in the master plan
cant expect SC2's empire to grow over night
stimulate the economy=more popularity
if you think SC2 is going away then i have a bridge to sell ya
ill sell it real cheap
Edit: its just a guessing game at this point but most people think 2 years
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On September 04 2010 17:59 SevenAteNine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:47 junkacc wrote:
A Korean company should make a BW clone + enhancements. Korean games do very well in Korea and Asia in general. They've already shown they can make a better WoW than Blizzard.
Blizzard owns the copyright but that doesn't exclude reimplementation as long as no Blizzard assets are used. All you SC2 fanboys who know nothing about the BW scene in Korea and think prize money automatically means esports can continue deluding yourselves that small scale disorganized tournaments are anything but a joke. prize money is just another step in the master plan cant expect SC2's empire to grow over night stimulate the economy=more popularity if you think SC2 is going away then i have a bridge to sell ya ill sell it real cheap Edit: its just a guessing game at this point but most people think 2 years
Yes prize money is the least of it and it's where the west has been stuck at for... how long prize pools for games have existed. You can study on the history of the NFL or NBA or any other professional sport. It took a long time for something like KeSPA to emerge in those sports too. SC2 is at the level of counterstrike right now. What makes you so sure it will become an empire? Because Blizzard said so? I have 100 bridges to sell you.
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Well written, but I believe the entire article can be replaced by this sentence:
Which sponsors will put down money to help a league that will be ancient history in a few short years?
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On September 04 2010 17:55 raga4ka wrote:
You people don't get what e - sports is ....
When your country's airport supports a video game by funding the bigest video game tournament ever that is e - sports . They fucking take the progamers by plane to which ever point of the world they want the tournament to be in . This is what helps popularize e - sports world wide .
When companies like Samsung , Wemade , CJ media , Hanbit , Hwaseung , STX , and others some of which are far bigger companies then Blizzard or Gretech will ever get sponsors a team of progamers that is e - sports .
Kespa is practically made from representatives of this companies .
When your country's military service supports a video game now that is e - sports .
You really shouldnt say they wont ever get sponsors for the game. Intel already sponsored one tournament, and the game was brand new. A year down the line if the game is still going moderately strong I can see more supporting it.
Most famous players in BW are considered celebrities and not just in Korea .
Thats a lie o.O
They are a celebrity in korea, but not outside korea. I mean... if you walk down the streets of bulgaria and start talking about the most recent flash game, will people think of the flash that you know? I know in america that is definitely not the case.
Tell me how many years or decades will it take for Starcraft 2 to become this big ? I'm not talking about a 2 - 10k cash tournament somewhere or a far bigger cash tournament thrown by a company that wants a piece of Korean's e -sports success .
Umm.... the GSL league already has a bigger cash tournament. This month's tournament is $85k, and supposedly the end of year tournament for 2011 will supposedly be $1,000,000. That is in US dollars (assuming the translator correctly adjusted).
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On September 04 2010 18:14 junkacc wrote:
Yes prize money is the least of it and it's where the west has been stuck at for... how long prize pools for games have existed. You can study on the history of the NFL or NBA or any other professional sport. It took a long time for something like KeSPA to emerge in those sports too. SC2 is at the level of counterstrike right now. What makes you so sure it will become an empire? Because Blizzard said so? I have 100 bridges to sell you.
You're ignorent if you dont believe SC2 has what it takes to read beyond SCBW's level.
i mean look at the players that have flocked to it so far
JulyZerg is already playing SC2 on Prime team
if other A team SCBW players wernt contracted to KeSPA its a very good chance they would be playing too
if that isnt a indication of things to come
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On September 04 2010 18:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +Tell me how many years or decades will it take for Starcraft 2 to become this big ? I'm not talking about a 2 - 10k cash tournament somewhere or a far bigger cash tournament thrown by a company that wants a piece of Korean's e -sports success . Umm.... the GSL league already has a bigger cash tournament. This month's tournament is $85k, and supposedly the end of year tournament for 2011 will supposedly be $1,000,000. That is in US dollars (assuming the translator correctly adjusted).
Way to miss the point.
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On September 04 2010 18:25 sashkata wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:Tell me how many years or decades will it take for Starcraft 2 to become this big ? I'm not talking about a 2 - 10k cash tournament somewhere or a far bigger cash tournament thrown by a company that wants a piece of Korean's e -sports success . Umm.... the GSL league already has a bigger cash tournament. This month's tournament is $85k, and supposedly the end of year tournament for 2011 will supposedly be $1,000,000. That is in US dollars (assuming the translator correctly adjusted). Way to miss the point.
I just dont see how SC2 is not already nearing global popularity on the scale of BW. At this point it isnt as popular for a single country (which may change since the pro season is over for now), but why are you all so focused on a single country?
I mean... look at it from this PoV:
In terms of people interested in watching the games, it has surpassed BW.
In terms of prize pool tournaments/leagues, we already have a league offering substantial prize money. I think in 2011 that will be the largest video game prize ever.
So, how are you all saying that SC2 isnt big? How are you to say it wont be big in korea? Your reasoning makes no sense.
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On September 04 2010 18:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:55 raga4ka wrote:
You people don't get what e - sports is ....
When your country's airport supports a video game by funding the bigest video game tournament ever that is e - sports . They fucking take the progamers by plane to which ever point of the world they want the tournament to be in . This is what helps popularize e - sports world wide .
When companies like Samsung , Wemade , CJ media , Hanbit , Hwaseung , STX , and others some of which are far bigger companies then Blizzard or Gretech will ever get sponsors a team of progamers that is e - sports .
Kespa is practically made from representatives of this companies .
When your country's military service supports a video game now that is e - sports . You really shouldnt say they wont ever get sponsors for the game. Intel already sponsored one tournament, and the game was brand new. A year down the line if the game is still going moderately strong I can see more supporting it.
Intel sponsors all kinds of stuff that has no future, as do video card companies. In the future, non-gaming sponsors would indicate broad appeal... gaming sponsors, not so much.
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On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea.
You're delusional if you think SC2 is going to succeed outside of Korea as a televised eSport.
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On September 04 2010 18:30 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 04 2010 17:55 raga4ka wrote:
You people don't get what e - sports is ....
When your country's airport supports a video game by funding the bigest video game tournament ever that is e - sports . They fucking take the progamers by plane to which ever point of the world they want the tournament to be in . This is what helps popularize e - sports world wide .
When companies like Samsung , Wemade , CJ media , Hanbit , Hwaseung , STX , and others some of which are far bigger companies then Blizzard or Gretech will ever get sponsors a team of progamers that is e - sports .
Kespa is practically made from representatives of this companies .
When your country's military service supports a video game now that is e - sports . You really shouldnt say they wont ever get sponsors for the game. Intel already sponsored one tournament, and the game was brand new. A year down the line if the game is still going moderately strong I can see more supporting it. Intel sponsors all kinds of stuff that has no future, as do video card companies. In the future, non-gaming sponsors would indicate broad appeal... gaming sponsors, not so much.
You realize that sponsors for BW didnt even start until several years into the game? Right?
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On September 04 2010 18:30 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea. You're delusional if you think SC2 is going to succeed outside of Korea as a televised eSport.
would you consider what MLG has done with Halo 3 success?
or do you only define KeSPA as a success?
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On September 04 2010 17:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:05 Grond wrote:
I don't see anybody defining what they mean by success. SC 2 may be sucessful if you define it as having some small tournaments that are watched by.some people online. If you define successful as starting where BW left off and growing beyond that then no they can't be successful without Korea. If they don't do a 180 in their negotiations with Kespa then SC 2 will not be successful in Korea. Blizzard may not like it and you may not like it but Kespa will be able to keep SC 2 from becoming a successful e-sport in Korea. Why can SC2 not be successful without korea? Counterstrike is quite successful without korea. Quake has been quite successful without korea. So far, considering SC2 is still extremely new, I would say it is quite successful. Right now, we are entering an era in which gaming can actually achieve a higher status thanks to the internet. What limited foreign success of games before was that you had no way to watch most matches. Now that there are a lot of streams (and in the case of SC2, lots of casters), more people can watch it and see it. It is already more global than anything before. I mean, just look at the HDH invitational. 230k views for the beta tournament. Flash vs jaedong in may (around the same time as the HDH) 70k. Flash vs jaedong from january, 112k. More than 20k people watched the king of the beta hill tournament LIVE at midnight or way later.
Like I said if your going to define people watching streams on the internet as success then SC 2 can be successful. Imo that is far below what they should be aiming for. When the winner of the world's largest tournament gets $5000 that is not successful.
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On September 04 2010 18:44 SevenAteNine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:30 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea. You're delusional if you think SC2 is going to succeed outside of Korea as a televised eSport. would you consider what MLG has done with Halo 3 success? or do you only define KeSPA as a success?
No i wouldn't consider it a success it's a niche on the level of Magic The Gathering tournaments.
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On September 04 2010 18:44 SevenAteNine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:30 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea. You're delusional if you think SC2 is going to succeed outside of Korea as a televised eSport. would you consider what MLG has done with Halo 3 success? or do you only define KeSPA as a success?
Edit: no people who watch SCBW atm probably didnt even see Boxer play live during his prime so ofcorse they dont know the history of the sport
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On September 04 2010 18:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:25 sashkata wrote:On September 04 2010 18:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:Tell me how many years or decades will it take for Starcraft 2 to become this big ? I'm not talking about a 2 - 10k cash tournament somewhere or a far bigger cash tournament thrown by a company that wants a piece of Korean's e -sports success . Umm.... the GSL league already has a bigger cash tournament. This month's tournament is $85k, and supposedly the end of year tournament for 2011 will supposedly be $1,000,000. That is in US dollars (assuming the translator correctly adjusted). Way to miss the point. I just dont see how SC2 is not already nearing global popularity on the scale of BW. At this point it isnt as popular for a single country (which may change since the pro season is over for now), but why are you all so focused on a single country? I mean... look at it from this PoV: In terms of people interested in watching the games, it has surpassed BW. In terms of prize pool tournaments/leagues, we already have a league offering substantial prize money. I think in 2011 that will be the largest video game prize ever. So, how are you all saying that SC2 isnt big? How are you to say it wont be big in korea? Your reasoning makes no sense.
Well my biggest reasoning is that broodwar is watched by people who have never played a video game in their life . Just like someone watches snooker or other sports for entertainment , even thought they've never played them . Right now people who watch SC2 are 99% people who play or want to play SC 2 , and i don't see that changing if blizzard doesn't start focusing more on the game then on tournaments to promote it , because it has issues that don't appeal as a spectators sport .
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On September 04 2010 18:46 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:44 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 04 2010 18:30 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea. You're delusional if you think SC2 is going to succeed outside of Korea as a televised eSport. would you consider what MLG has done with Halo 3 success? or do you only define KeSPA as a success? No i wouldn't consider it a success it's a niche on the level of Magic The Gathering tournaments.
even inside Korea SCBW is still a niche
its only popular due to the TV stations that exist inside Korea
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A lot of people seem to be misunderstanding the OP.
The point is that if you kill off BW before SC2 has become truly established as an e-sport in the same vein as BW (i.e. a sport where people gladly take their kids and where the star players are actually known to the public), then you're essentially going to have to start the development of SC2 from the same starting point that BW had, i.e. from absolute scratch. Killing off BW doesn't mean that everyone in Korea will suddenly shift to SC2. And considering that BW's original growth was a result of a lot of different factors which will not be repeated again, it's not necessarily clear that SC2 will make it.
Of course, SC2 has other benefits were it to start from scratch, but it would still be an uphill struggle. TC argues that it probably wouldn't make it...I don't know about that, it might make it anyway, but if it doesn't then that'd be the end of e-sports for the foreseeable future.
Basically, SC2 might make it all by itself, but it will be a hell of a lot easier if BW were there to facilitate its growth.
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On September 04 2010 18:48 SevenAteNine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:46 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 04 2010 18:44 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 04 2010 18:30 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 04 2010 14:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:new sc2 players need to understand that bw in korea is what esports is at its best.
Regularly on tv,
players getting paid $100,000+
big audience that dont even play the game, but love watching it. Sure... in Korea. That has never been the case for BW in any other country. Certainly, American and European interest in BW is negligible by comparison. If SC2 is going to be bigger than BW, it is going to have to succeed outside of Korea. And, if it *does* succeed outside of Korea, than it can afford to be less popular than BW in Korea. You're delusional if you think SC2 is going to succeed outside of Korea as a televised eSport. would you consider what MLG has done with Halo 3 success? or do you only define KeSPA as a success? No i wouldn't consider it a success it's a niche on the level of Magic The Gathering tournaments. even inside Korea SCBW is still a niche its only popular due to the TV stations that exist inside Korea
Yeah it is a niche i agree, but it's a niche that still gets 30,000 people showing up for the proleague finals. It's just culture differences really, i mean remember recently Bisu/Boxer presenting an award at some music related show. Imagine it happening anywhere else...
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On September 04 2010 18:48 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 04 2010 18:25 sashkata wrote:On September 04 2010 18:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:Tell me how many years or decades will it take for Starcraft 2 to become this big ? I'm not talking about a 2 - 10k cash tournament somewhere or a far bigger cash tournament thrown by a company that wants a piece of Korean's e -sports success . Umm.... the GSL league already has a bigger cash tournament. This month's tournament is $85k, and supposedly the end of year tournament for 2011 will supposedly be $1,000,000. That is in US dollars (assuming the translator correctly adjusted). Way to miss the point. I just dont see how SC2 is not already nearing global popularity on the scale of BW. At this point it isnt as popular for a single country (which may change since the pro season is over for now), but why are you all so focused on a single country? I mean... look at it from this PoV: In terms of people interested in watching the games, it has surpassed BW. In terms of prize pool tournaments/leagues, we already have a league offering substantial prize money. I think in 2011 that will be the largest video game prize ever. So, how are you all saying that SC2 isnt big? How are you to say it wont be big in korea? Your reasoning makes no sense. Well my biggest reasoning is that broodwar is watched by people who have never played a video game in their life . Just like someone watches snooker or other sports for fun , even thought they've never played them . Right now people who watch SC2 are 99% people who play or want to play SC 2 , and i don't see that changing if blizzard doesn't start focusing more on the game then on tournaments to promote it , because it has issues that don't appeal as a spectators sport .
Yeah exactly. For example if you had an SC2 proleague or starleagues running after or before BW schedule, that would be a good way of complimenting the two. But unfortunately Blizzard seems determined to split it completely.
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On September 04 2010 18:55 infinity2k9 wrote:
But unfortunately Blizzard seems determined to split it completely.
Demanding fair compensation for use of their product is NOT running BW out of business. KeSPA are just refusing to budge and would rather burn BW esports to the ground than have to give up some of their cocaine and hot-tub money. It baffles me how anyone could try and pin BW's demise on Blizzard when KeSPA has been ruining BW for years all by itself with nobody else's help. This is just the next (and possibly last) in a long line of KeSPA fuck-ups.
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On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
(...)
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
(...)
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded. Why would SC2 fare better with BW alive? Would the audience continue watching BW, migrate to SC2, or enjoy both? Why is only Korea relevant to the development of e-Sports? What about the storm clouds converging over the BW scene, with coaches resigning/being fired, teams attempting to disband and match-fixing scandals? Does this not merit to consider the possibility that the BW scene is rotting from within? What about the players and commentators who've made a smooth transition to the SC2 scene- more top-level foreigners than you can count, Tester, JulyZerg, Day[9], and the rise of new commentators in HD and Husky among others? What about the SC2 teams and training houses already setting up shop in Korea? Why should the SC2 fans care that the BW scene is hemorrhaging talent, if that talent is migrating straight to SC2? What about all the WC3 pros who are migrating to SC2, and from other strategy games as well- like fan-favorite TLO coming from having played Supreme Commander? Your post is made from a BW perspective. You don't seem to be in touch with the SC2 scene- or if you are, you don't reflect that in your post. All in all, I completely disagree with your conclusions; I see no reason why SC2 cannot succeed if BW dies.
Excellent post. I'm glad I didn't have to write up something similar.
No matter how well or confidently written, your conclusions are unfounded.
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On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. In fact, if Sc2 and BW are to succeed as esports in the future, the conventional business model of video games; replace and replay, must be turned on it’s head. Esports must be lasting and growing institutions, not yearly flights of fancy. If we want to see the highest quality games, and the highest quality tournaments, then Sc2 and BW must be linked together as older brother to younger brother, [I]not[/I\ as father to son. If we fail to make this distinction in the coming months, then it will be too late for both games.
Instead, I’d love to see the anger that was directed at GOM for it’s idiotic paying stream system to be focused at the Blizzard and their Gretech puppets. If the fans of esports in general, whether Sc2 or BW don’t speak up and demand a deal on BW, then I fear the dream of Korean esports is doomed.
On September 04 2010 12:16 FireBlast! wrote:
Thank you for echoing my thoughts with such lucidity and eloquence.
My thoughts exactly. Tree Hugger, this is why I did not buy Sc2 - out of protest of how Blizzard through Gretech is killing Korean eSports in the name of profit margin. Was I wrong to not buy it?
I can't believe the people here at TL have forgotten what this site has been about for so long - and how Blizzard is so readily just killing all that. Professional BW - teams, corporate sponsors, players, the NaDas, Saviors, Jaedongs and Flashes, the articles, the reviews, previews, and culture around professional BW.
People here barely even mention that Blizzard is massacring this culture that we've help to build up and appreciate... what the? Now I'm glad for TL to get attention. I like Idra, Nazgul, TLO, and Team TL. What I don't like is the turning away from said facts above.
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On September 04 2010 19:14 bias- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. In fact, if Sc2 and BW are to succeed as esports in the future, the conventional business model of video games; replace and replay, must be turned on it’s head. Esports must be lasting and growing institutions, not yearly flights of fancy. If we want to see the highest quality games, and the highest quality tournaments, then Sc2 and BW must be linked together as older brother to younger brother, [I]not[/I\ as father to son. If we fail to make this distinction in the coming months, then it will be too late for both games.
Instead, I’d love to see the anger that was directed at GOM for it’s idiotic paying stream system to be focused at the Blizzard and their Gretech puppets. If the fans of esports in general, whether Sc2 or BW don’t speak up and demand a deal on BW, then I fear the dream of Korean esports is doomed. Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:16 FireBlast! wrote:
Thank you for echoing my thoughts with such lucidity and eloquence. My thoughts exactly. Tree Hugger, this is why I did not buy Sc2 - out of protest of how Blizzard through Gretech is killing Korean eSports in the name of profit margin. Was I wrong to not buy it? I can't believe the people here at TL have forgotten what this site has been about for so long - and how Blizzard is so readily just killing all that. Professional BW - teams, corporate sponsors, players, the NaDas, Saviors, Jaedongs and Flashes, the articles, the reviews, previews, and culture around professional BW. People here barely even mention that Blizzard is massacring this culture that we've help to build up and appreciate... what the? Now I'm glad for TL to get attention. I like Idra, Nazgul, TLO, and Team TL. What I don't like is the turning away from said facts above.
Blizzard isn't killing anything. They're not out of line at all in expecting KeSPA to stop stealing their game. Take a look at how much KeSPA collects from MBC/OSL to pretty much sit on their asses and send refs to a few matches (And then fuck up decisions when they're needed. MSL power outage anyone). You're telling me they can't afford to pay some royalty fees to the company that rightfully owns the game? Get a grip. If BW dies it'll be at the hands of KeSPA's stubbornness.
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I think quite a bit of this thread is worthless/pointless. People defending Kespa, but saying Blizzard is evil, and so on. A lot of it is Korean players saying "You don't understand, Kespa is great, Blizzard is evil, it's different here in Korea", and the replies going the other way. However it may be in Korea, it's also different here in the US. So, both parties are simply defending their ground, I guess.
It's Blizzard's game. They can sell the rights to it, or not. Kespa has no right to sell rights to Starcraft. Simple as that. If you want to play the game, you do so under their terms. If you don't want to play it under their terms, don't buy it. It's that simple. If you don't want to advance Blizzard's profit, best to not buy their games at all, if they're as evil as many of you say. I'm not saying they're perfect angels, but it IS their product, and they own the rights to it, and/or the ability to assign/sell rights to it. Not Kespa.
Kespa does have the contracts with the players, and are well within their rights to do what they have done with said players. It's the players' choice to continue with them, or not. However, they've done some stuff in public that makes people in the US think of the Mafia, or other organized crime people. You just don't act like that in public here. What you do in Korea where other people don't see it is your business, of course, but crap like that looks really bad here. Now, I'm not saying there aren't organizations that do bad stuff in the US. There's plenty, but most of them are better at public relations.
You notice I haven't addressed the whole e-sports thing, and I won't, because I'm not an expert in that. However, I'm no kid, and I know which corporation I'd rather give my money to, based on what is publicly available about them. IMO, it's too early to tell about the e-sports thing.
I don't think that Blizzard is sure they WANT SC2 to be the next BW. They have Diablo 3 and a new MMO coming up in the next 5-10 years, and who knows what after that. Why would they want to have people committed to a 5-year old game after that? I'm not saying that's their plan, but the possibility is there. One thing I am sure of: they'll keep patching the game for the people who ARE playing it at that time. I mean, they released a patch for Diablo II last year, and it's almost as old as SC1...
You can call me a Blizzard fanboi if you want, but, when one company acts like a normal corporation trying to make a profit in a down economy, and the other acts like a criminal organization, trying to sell rights *it doesn't even have*, I know which one I like better.
Edit: Also, let's cut the nostalgia crap. SC2 is not 'killing' TL's BW section. If it's dying, it's dying of its own volition. If the TL management didn't want to let in SC2, they wouldn't have made the SC2 section. They can delete it if they want. It's their forum to do what they wish with. I understand the deference to longtime posters, but, you're still not forum management, and can't make their decisions for them.
Edit2: Also, you're comparing a 12-year-old game that's been an e-sport for a while with a game that's only been officially released in the rest of the world for 39 days. Has it even come out of free/beta status in Korea yet?
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The style in which BW is an esport in Korea will forever be Korean. We will not have anything similar in the rest of the world due to a simple fact: Travel expenses. In Korea everything happens in one huge city which houses half the countries population (including the surrounding area). The rest of the world is MUCH bigger than one megalopolis.
We will have a different kind of esport in the rest of the world and this has already established itself. Regular and relatively low prize tournaments are already happening every week with the addition of several big tournaments. Obviously no one can make enough money from this to support himself and even for sponsors it seems not really that ideal to pay a lot to individual players when their success isnt guaranteed. I think they would have more exposure from sponsoring tournaments (like the HDH has shown IMO) instead. Thus we will have a MUCH wider player base and tournaments covered by free streams.
The thing I really hate atm is the additional software which we have to install to follow certain tournaments. These are the tournaments organized by big companies (ESL, MLG, Gom) and they are live tournaments. The additional software is used to push through the ads (Octoshape does require you to turn off adblock) and to show it only to people who have paid extra for a stream whose lag-free-quality the company can NOT guarantee. Personally I think it is a waste of time to watch any stream with a laggy or medium quality, because there is already sooo much free SC2 to watch that you can fill all your needs with it and it will be more in the future. The big companies with their moneymaking schemes should rethink the "pay to view" policies with so much free competition.
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Yeah Kespa was what really made bw to the great esport it now is.
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to me it just seams that this is another "SC2 wont live up to BW" threads. was BW big as it was today in its first year? no, 2nd year? no, 3rd year no? in korea shit started to happen yes but all in all it a took a couple years to get BW on the track with all the pro-leagues and tournaments BW has today/last year.
now we look at SC2 which already has a HUGE tournament in korea and hundreds online everyday with massive prize money, are these players comparable to Flash or Jaedong? no, will be still be around 5 years from now? prob not, but right now SC2 has a huge edge over BW in terms of the time period, players and sponsorship. If BW were to die tomorrow SC2 wouldn't die along with it, it would leave a scare in the world of esports if it happened abruptly like that but it wouldn't die the way your suggesting. Sc2 is still a baby, its barely a few months old and trying to guess or predict on whether it will become a success as big as BW is the stupidest thing you can do, you might as well try and predict when the next iceage will come,
the thing about sc2 is that its not just BW players turning over to sc2, its a HUGE wide varitey of gamers from all sorts of games, rts, fps, mmo, rpg, w/e they are coming from everywhere and still are more to come.
people still complain about balance and issues regarding gameplay, i mean back in the day a pool cost 150 minerals, 4pool was UNSTOPABLE, did blizz not do something about it? yes they added 50 more minerals too it and more and more stuff latter on to the game we know today so stfu and let blizzard do their job, will sc2 be balanced in the year? no, next year? prob not, 3 years? maybe.
will sc2 become a success likes it brother BW? i dont know, will it become a good as game as BW? i dont know, will more threads like this and people complain/rage/disscuse about sc2 and bw?
yes.
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On September 05 2010 02:20 Rabiator wrote:
The style in which BW is an esport in Korea will forever be Korean. We will not have anything similar in the rest of the world due to a simple fact: Travel expenses. In Korea everything happens in one huge city which houses half the countries population (including the surrounding area). The rest of the world is MUCH bigger than one megalopolis.
If it becomes popular enough players will be able to afford travelling around the world for major tournaments, just look at tennis. Let's hope it makes it that far!
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On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote: BW is the best selling PC game on earth.
No. Best selling PC game on earth is The Sims.
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On September 05 2010 03:04 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote: BW is the best selling PC game on earth. No. Best selling PC game on earth is The Sims.
You mean The Sims series, which is like 44 products.
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I think your argument makes no sense. i think the faster BW dies off, the faster SC2 will reach critical mass.
the transition from a spectator point of view from BW to SC2 is smooth. gameplaywise too. i understand now why blizzard didn't even try to innovate with the game.
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wow its so funny how the conflicts between these 2 companies is showing up in our post's. I for see pros and cons on both sides, i feel blizzard is trying to dip its cookie a little too deep in the milk. and that KeSPA is not really willing to share, even though their backs are up against the wall. And now Blizzard is refusing to negotiate due to the proleagues competing with the GSL. Which i think blizzard shouldn't charge for regardless
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On September 04 2010 14:49 Saracen wrote:
Ok, sorry if this comes off as inflammatory because the first page or two of replies has really pissed me off.
To those of you jumping in and saying "Oh SC2 is a new game. BW is old, SC2 is new. BW is Korean, SC2 is global. BW is dying, SC2 has potential." You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You really don't. Every time you say "SC2 doesn't need Korea, it has the rest of the world! SC2 has achieved more greatness than BW ever has, just look at HD and Husky compared to nevake and Jon747!" you just make yourself look like an idiot. It's not about Youtube viewers. It's not about random tournaments like ESL/MLG. There's a difference between the little notion you have in your head of "eSports" and what eSports actually is and actually could be. eSports isn't just "oh, look it's SC2 in WCG and hey MLG is sponsoring SC2 as well, SC2 is doing great!" It's not about making a video game just another part of the video game industry, like SSB, WC3, DotA, WoW. It's about LONGEVITY. It's about building a fucking CULTURE. So you have your little SC2 "eSports" for what, two years? Three years? Then the next new awesome video game comes out and everyone jumps on the new bandwagon? What makes Starcraft stand out from all the others? What contributes to its longevity? No, it's not the fact that Blizzard made it. No, it's not the fact that it's a well-designed game. It's the fucking CULTURE. You CAN'T just isolate Korea and look at the rest of the world when it comes to eSports. Because Korea IS fucking eSports.
If you keep looking at SC2 in this way, despite all the hard work the members of the community put in, including HD, Husky, and Day9, SC2 will just end up as another "good" game that will quickly be replaced by the next "big" thing.
this post need violin music as background. what a romantic view of the thing. I recommend you step out of whatever paradigm you're standing and watch it with outside eyes. not sure what makes you think eSports is more than any other competitive scene. Sports (without the e) is not about the culture, just to set an example. esports to you may be all that but you and all who think like you are but a small part of it. beautiful as your vision may be it is certainly very biased. i'm not trying to be confrontational or trying to troll, i'm just sharing the toughts of an outsider.
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On September 04 2010 14:49 Saracen wrote:
Ok, sorry if this comes off as inflammatory because the first page or two of replies has really pissed me off.
To those of you jumping in and saying "Oh SC2 is a new game. BW is old, SC2 is new. BW is Korean, SC2 is global. BW is dying, SC2 has potential." You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You really don't. Every time you say "SC2 doesn't need Korea, it has the rest of the world! SC2 has achieved more greatness than BW ever has, just look at HD and Husky compared to nevake and Jon747!" you just make yourself look like an idiot. It's not about Youtube viewers. It's not about random tournaments like ESL/MLG. There's a difference between the little notion you have in your head of "eSports" and what eSports actually is and actually could be. eSports isn't just "oh, look it's SC2 in WCG and hey MLG is sponsoring SC2 as well, SC2 is doing great!" It's not about making a video game just another part of the video game industry, like SSB, WC3, DotA, WoW. It's about LONGEVITY. It's about building a fucking CULTURE. So you have your little SC2 "eSports" for what, two years? Three years? Then the next new awesome video game comes out and everyone jumps on the new bandwagon? What makes Starcraft stand out from all the others? What contributes to its longevity? No, it's not the fact that Blizzard made it. No, it's not the fact that it's a well-designed game. It's the fucking CULTURE. You CAN'T just isolate Korea and look at the rest of the world when it comes to eSports. Because Korea IS fucking eSports.
If you keep looking at SC2 in this way, despite all the hard work the members of the community put in, including HD, Husky, and Day9, SC2 will just end up as another "good" game that will quickly be replaced by the next "big" thing.
I'm not going to address your opinion of why eSports is successful, I am going to tell you that your assumptions on foreign eSports are completely wrong.
If every non-Korean gaming culture actually did just move on after 2 years. How come people are still playing DotA? How come everyone didn't jump ship to CS:Source from 1.6? Give some credit to the foreign competitive players and eSport fans... If anything they are dedicated. I've said this before, but I'm sick of the "KeSPA/Korean E-sports is as good as it gets" mantra around here.
I don't want BW to die at all, but whether or not it does; Ignoring or undermining the momentum that foreign SC2 has is just blatantly retarded if you know your foreign eSport history.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
I'm glad people are discussing this, at the very least!
To address some points people have made:
On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements.
I want to restate what I mean by success, and what I think this community has expected Sc2 to achieve since its announcement. Sc2 has already become phenomenally successful by most measures, however, TL & community are dedicated to taking Sc2 further as a true esport. Sc2 has the potential to have a well-watched professional league(s) and well-played star players. Obviously, I don't see that happening at this rate.
Here's my logic, in steps;
1: BW became the success that it was because of a highly unique set of circumstances, much of which is explained by MrHoon here.
2: It is impossible for Sc2 to replicate these circumstances, the times are simply different.
3: However, if Sc2 could find and use different unique advantages, it could be equally successful, or quite possibly even more so.
4: Sc2's chief advantage is its position in the starcraft franchise.
5: However, this advantage is not being utilized.
6: Thus, Sc2 has no reasonable path to success.
For points 4 and 5 I attempted to identify the advantages that Sc2 had, and how the destruction of the BW scene will render each of these advantages into disadvantages.
On September 04 2010 13:09 awesomoecalypse wrote:
You seem myopically focused on Korea.
Considering the logistics and cultural differences between regions in the US, or the Eurozone, I simply do not believe that a popular and cohesive PC game league is viable in those regions. Only in China could I see a similar situation as Korea appear. Whether or not the US or Europe will have more players than BW did is irrelevant, there simply isn't the ability to create the kind of esports league that Korea has developed. When I say esports, I don't mean a robust series of online tournaments, and WCG every year. Any old game can get to that level. I mean an actual sporting league. If you want the highest quality play, and the longest focused attention, some sort of central league is a must. In Korea, where it already exists, I see it as insanely reckless and stupid to tear down the old, popular game in order to build the new one from scratch.
A successful esport world-wide is a pipe dream, and seems implausible if the world's most enthusiastic gaming country isn't on board.
But for one second, lets assume it was possible. Sending the message that video game leagues are only good for ten or less years, means the industry could never hope for any kind of long term sponsorship. And the well of new players would likely dry up around the seventh year, simply because the game's decline would be assumed to be imminent.
On September 04 2010 13:10 Vokasak wrote:
I don't see Blizzard asking for what's rightfully theirs as "killing off BW".
While I don't think that Blizzard is being particularly fair in this situation, that's hardly the point. I don't mean to argue that Blizzard/Gretech is wrong, merely that the course of action they're taking is stupid and self-defeating.
Whether or not they have a right to terminate the BW scene is not the issue, it's whether or not it's smart for them to do so, and I argue that it is not. I'm trying to present an argument that's practical, not necessarily sentimental.
On September 04 2010 13:16 Redmark wrote:I would be very dubious of any claims that a greater proportion of the SC2 fanbase wants BW to die than BW supporters want SC2 to die. We want e-sports, period. It's just that SC2 looks more promising than BW ever was, and no amount of fear-mongering will change that.
I don't believe we need to choose between BW and Sc2. This is my entire point. I believe that both, if given the chance, could co-exist. And if they didn't, then the market would decide. But I believe that as fans, the choice isn't between BW and Sc2, it's between a professional scene for both, or a professional scene for neither.
***
Let me mention that while I am a BW fan initially, I don't harbor any real ill will towards the game. I played the beta, and I will likely buy a copy when I get more money or the price goes down.But I simply don't think Sc2 can become a true esport without BW. And I don't think BW can survive without Sc2 fans helping the cause.
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I think my major point of contention is #2 on your list. SC2 doesn't need to replicate the circumstances that led to the rise of BW, because the infrastructure for competitive starcraft gaming in Korea is already present. Television studios exist, channels exist, announcers exist, teams exist, and more importantly, players and fans exist. If it was suddenly announced that the next series would be played on SC2 instead of BW, the players would have some work to do but everyone would keep watching and it would be business-as-usual for the Korean pro starcraft scene after a relatively short period of time. I know it's not really that simple, but the fact of the matter is that there is already a lot in place for SC2 to take over BW as an esport in Korea. I think that as top players move into SC2, they will bring fan interest with them, and sponsors will follow. In my opinion, what needs to happen, unfortunate as it may be for pro BW, is to get the players off the sinking ship as fast as possible and into SC2 before the infrastructure breaks down too much.
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When SC2 reaches
![[image loading]](http://www.mymym.com/gfx/daum-osl-07-5.jpg)
of audience, I will concede that it doesn't ride off the coattails of SC1's success or that it will attain the longevity as a spectator sport as BW.
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As usual blind fanboyism shows how peoples judgement gets impaired, even with all the facts on the table ppl will still rage no matter what.
Its widely known what went down between Kespa and Blizzard, why the fuck would Blizzard give a shit about Kespa right now? Does this makes sense at all?
It was pretty obvious that something like this would happen a long time ago, Kespa didnt showed any signs of caring at all, and now they are going to get shut down and thats all.
Its not Blizzard fault that Kespa = Scbw in Korea.
On September 05 2010 06:08 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
I think my major point of contention is #2 on your list. SC2 doesn't need to replicate the circumstances that led to the rise of BW, because the infrastructure for competitive starcraft gaming in Korea is already present. Television studios exist, channels exist, announcers exist, teams exist, and more importantly, players and fans exist. If it was suddenly announced that the next series would be played on SC2 instead of BW, the players would have some work to do but everyone would keep watching and it would be business-as-usual for the Korean pro starcraft scene after a relatively short period of time. I know it's not really that simple, but the fact of the matter is that there is already a lot in place for SC2 to take over BW as an esport in Korea. I think that as top players move into SC2, they will bring fan interest with them, and sponsors will follow. In my opinion, what needs to happen, unfortunate as it may be for pro BW, is to get the players off the sinking ship as fast as possible and into SC2 before the infrastructure breaks down too much.
Agree 100% with this.
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Whilst I don't have the time to write a detailed post explaining specifically why, I'd like to say that I disagree with all three of the main points the OP raised. I don't disagree entirely with everything said, but in general I think all three points are flawed.
What is so interesting/frustrating about this whole shebang is that a very convincing narrative can be woven by both sides. If I took a pool of completely neutral test subjects, unfamiliar with anything to do with e-sports, and showed them both a pro-kespa thread and a pro-gom thread, I doubt there would be a significant trend towards either side.
For my own part, I am slightly more sympathetic towards GOM. I think it is unfair to characterise GOM as "Blizzard's puppet" and I don't believe anybody at GOM wants to see the death of Brood War. I actually believe SC2's "success" as an e-sport will live and die by itself, independent of the the survival of Brood War.
The one element of this entire argument that does irritate me is its characterisation by many posters as this being a conflict between old school Starcraft players who "understand" and the new generation of Starcraft 2 players, who are being presented, largely, as ignorant and naive WoW converts.
I spent many happy years playing Starcraft 1 and have observed the korean pro-league scene, on and off, since boxer. With Starcraft 2, I've made a big push to get some of my good friends interested and involved in the game. By and large, its working, but the hostile attitude presented towards them by certain segments of the community makes it harder; they feel like they're in the deep end and that they aren't welcome there.
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On September 04 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 12 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 12 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:51 Zato-1 wrote:On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
(...)
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
(...)
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded. Why would SC2 fare better with BW alive? Would the audience continue watching BW, migrate to SC2, or enjoy both? Why is only Korea relevant to the development of e-Sports? What about the storm clouds converging over the BW scene, with coaches resigning/being fired, teams attempting to disband and match-fixing scandals? Does this not merit to consider the possibility that the BW scene is rotting from within? What about the players and commentators who've made a smooth transition to the SC2 scene- more top-level foreigners than you can count, Tester, JulyZerg, Day[9], and the rise of new commentators in HD and Husky among others? What about the SC2 teams and training houses already setting up shop in Korea? Why should the SC2 fans care that the BW scene is hemorrhaging talent, if that talent is migrating straight to SC2? What about all the WC3 pros who are migrating to SC2, and from other strategy games as well- like fan-favorite TLO coming from having played Supreme Commander? Your post is made from a BW perspective. You don't seem to be in touch with the SC2 scene- or if you are, you don't reflect that in your post. All in all, I completely disagree with your conclusions; I see no reason why SC2 cannot succeed if BW dies. All this stuff about wc3-pros going over to sc2 is kinda rubbish, there are virtually no pros in wc3. SC2 is not as spectator friendly as SC1, so you thinking that breaking down the sc1 will help sc2 flurish is completely incorrect. WC3 was a kind of follow up to broodwar just like sc2 and look at where that game is now competetively. The scene is completely dead, in total it hasn't even been as popular as mods made for it, like DOTA. SC-2 will be great if Blizzard work hard at improving the game experience etc., but the problem is that they're too often too busy stuffing their pockets with money. I thought the OP's post made more sense than your did and didn't draw his conclusions as loosely.
Excuse me?
For your information. There exists Wc3 pros (Moon having one of the highest salaries in the E-sport world), Wc3 is NOT dead, nor is its community. You are completely misinformed. Reply to this if you want evidence for my claims, and I will provide you links
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Agree with the OP completely. Very well said.
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The Korean BW scene and the general acceptance of SC2 in Korea is not something the success of SC2 hinges on as much as some people might believe.
The BW scene is roughly as beneficial as it is harmful to the emerging SC2 scene. On one hand you get people who are familiar with the game and a stronger infrastructure. On the other you have competition which eats away at the viewers. For all intents and purposes the BW scene is dead to Blizzard, only the Korean one matters. Looking at the big prize pools of the GSL tournament and Blizzards actual support of SC2 as an e-sport it is obvious they and their Korean partners are opting for the carrot strategy first. Lure progamers in with big prize pools, hoping their skill will generate enough viewers to eventually overtake the BW scene. Thus a smooth transition is possible and no one can say how Blizzard killed the BW scene, they would have merely replaced it.
Obviously, failure is another option, but so what? That does not mean that it cannot succeed in western countries with proper support. Going by the logic that it can only be successful in the world if it's successful in Korea is flawed. That would mean that BW should be alive and healthy everywhere right now, but we all know that's not the case. A fairly good example is the popularity of MMOs today. Before WoW they were hardly mainstream, but look at the MMO market today. Th same might happen to the RTS genre. Currently it's taken the back seat to FPS and RPG games. But with a new,well made game supported by competent developers it could possibly recreate the same thing WoW managed years ago.
The last and quite frankly the worst option is that SC2 fails as an e-sport completely and in the process kills of the BW scene as well. The world would lose 12 years of e-sport progression.
I for one wouldn't mind if both games could co-exist, but I honestly don't see it happening. Sure, BW will stick around for a while, but it will either be replaced by SC2 or forced out by Blizzard. Yes, you might rage on the forums, like you did about no LAN, no cross realm play and no chat channels, but in the end most of you still bought it(since you're posting the in SC2 forum section).
P.S.:
I apologize if this seems like a bunch of nonsense (as I'm sure some will point out), but I have a difficult time expressing what I feel and I've started from scratch on this post 3 times.
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On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL). SC2 fans who have no experience with Broodwar have a misguided impression that having a bunch of big money tournaments and a live event with people on ustream equals an instant Esport hit. But every year large money prize pools are dished out for many mediocre games, sponsored mainly by video card and other gaming gear related companies, and then the game is forgotten a year or two later by the big donors. The success of an esport, as TreeHugger has correctly identified, is defined by sustainability.
This. Money and tournaments is not an Esport. Social acceptance is. BW created that in Korea. Modeling SC2 off of Korea to become something as accepted as Football would be great. And why was BW able to do what it did? Stability. Let BW slowly die to a developing SC2 to give SC2 a sense of stability and let it develop a Pro-League, not a conglomeration of tournaments for me and my nerd friends to watch.
I want to be able to watch it with my girlfriend who is not a gamer. That's success. SC2 is not a success yet.
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On September 05 2010 07:48 Bhaalgorn wrote:
Looking at the big prize pools of the GSL tournament and Blizzards actual support of SC2 as an e-sport it is obvious they and their Korean partners are opting for the carrot strategy first. Lure progamers in with big prize pools, hoping their skill will generate enough viewers to eventually overtake the BW scene. Thus a smooth transition is possible and no one can say how Blizzard killed the BW scene, they would have merely replaced it.
No, the controversy is that they are NOT doing that kind of transition. Rather, they are saying "Nope, you cannot play your game anymore or have your tournaments. It's illegal." They are opting for the 1 base all in push.
They should just be luring BW players with money while they allow their leagues to keep playing, but from the looks of it they aren't going to. They are going to use the law and IP rights to forcibly shut down BW.
That's what's up.
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On September 05 2010 08:09 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL). SC2 fans who have no experience with Broodwar have a misguided impression that having a bunch of big money tournaments and a live event with people on ustream equals an instant Esport hit. But every year large money prize pools are dished out for many mediocre games, sponsored mainly by video card and other gaming gear related companies, and then the game is forgotten a year or two later by the big donors. The success of an esport, as TreeHugger has correctly identified, is defined by sustainability. This. Money and tournaments is not an Esport. Social acceptance is. BW created that in Korea. Modeling SC2 off of Korea to become something as accepted as Football would be great. And why was BW able to do what it did? Stability. Let BW slowly die to a developing SC2 to give SC2 a sense of stability and let it develop a Pro-League, not a conglomeration of tournaments for me and my nerd friends to watch. I want to be able to watch it with my girlfriend who is not a gamer. That's success. SC2 is not a success yet.
You're exaggerating how socially accepted gaming is in Korea. If you read progamer interviews, most of them say their parents were opposed to that lifestyle. Of course their parents eventually gave up since they became progamers, but it hints that many kids were denied the chance. All in all it seems the older generation still thinks that games are a waste of time. The country is also fighting increasing internet addiction. Recently we heard news that the government would be blocking access to 19 popular online games for 6 hours a night for underage players. That doesn't sound very much like acceptance to me.
They should just be luring BW players with money while they allow their leagues to keep playing, but from the looks of it they aren't going to. They are going to use the law and IP rights to forcibly shut down BW.
You can't really present this as a fact when the only information pointing to that comes from unnamed KeSPA officials commenting on a negotiation that's supposed to be under NDA.
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On September 05 2010 08:18 rackdude wrote:
No, the controversy is that they are NOT doing that kind of transition. Rather, they are saying "Nope, you cannot play your game anymore or have your tournaments. It's illegal." They are opting for the 1 base all in push.
They should just be luring BW players with money while they allow their leagues to keep playing, but from the looks of it they aren't going to. They are going to use the law and IP rights to forcibly shut down BW.
That's what's up.
Blizzard is protecting their own IP now. It is theirs to sell rights to, not Kespa's. If you think Blizzard's wrong to assert their rights to the SC franchise, then you're way out in left field. They created the game. Kespa helped create the e-sport, but, Kespa overstepped when they started charging money to networks to show things based on Blizzard's product. Now they have to pay the piper, and they don't want to negotiate with Blizzard. They want to have it their way, and no other way. So, Blizzard has threatened to pull the plug. That's Blizzard's prerogative.
The current BW maneuvering is not about Blizzard killing an e-sport. It's about reining in a company/organization that was selling rights to something they never owned -- Kespa. I guess if you're Korean, that makes Blizzard an evil corporation, but that's too bad. If Kespa had created the game, they could do whatever they wanted. Maybe they should create their own wonderful Korean RTS to play if SC2 is so bad, according to many of you. Then they could lawfully sell the rights to it for a change.
As far as Kespa not allowing the BW pros to play SC2 at all, that's between them and said progamers and the contracts. The progamers have to make their own choices. However, selling rights to view SC1 is not Kespa's prerogative.
Just tired of seeing this crap that Blizzard is evil for protecting their own intellectual property rights.
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On September 05 2010 08:18 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 07:48 Bhaalgorn wrote:
Looking at the big prize pools of the GSL tournament and Blizzards actual support of SC2 as an e-sport it is obvious they and their Korean partners are opting for the carrot strategy first. Lure progamers in with big prize pools, hoping their skill will generate enough viewers to eventually overtake the BW scene. Thus a smooth transition is possible and no one can say how Blizzard killed the BW scene, they would have merely replaced it.
No, the controversy is that they are NOT doing that kind of transition. Rather, they are saying "Nope, you cannot play your game anymore or have your tournaments. It's illegal." They are opting for the 1 base all in push. They should just be luring BW players with money while they allow their leagues to keep playing, but from the looks of it they aren't going to. They are going to use the law and IP rights to forcibly shut down BW. That's what's up.
You are complelty missing the point, there is just no way that Blizzard would be negotiating with Kespa at this point.
From a practical point of view, Kespa not allowing pros to play SC2 makes the "luring with tournament money" kinda obsolete, because a steady pay check is always better.
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It seems to me that Blizzard didn't have much of an option. KeSPA has such a death grip on both the players and teams, blizzard really would have had to start from the ground up to construct SC2 as a pro sport in Korea. The alternative would've been to try to poach teams from KeSPA, and that would've been it's own form of open warfare, and far riskier for Blizzard. Instead, it seems they tried unsuccessfully to reason with KeSPA. That left them with two options:
1) give up on SC2 as a pro esport in Korea
2) play hard ball with KeSPA
They (understandably, to me), chose option 2. In that case, the best, most efficient course of action for Blizzard was to hit KeSPA with their best weapon -- the law. If they wage a legal battle they don't have to worry about a ratings battle, and they can try to salvage players and teams out of the fallout when KeSPA finally goes bust, releasing its contracts. That's why Blizzard is investing so much in tournaments -- they want to make a green pasture for ex-BW pros, to encourage them to stay in esports by playing SC2. If the players switch, they'll bring their fans and they'll pick up new ones, and Blizzard will have an easy time hooking up with sponsors and getting televised leagues and tournaments set up.
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On September 05 2010 03:49 latan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 14:49 Saracen wrote:
Ok, sorry if this comes off as inflammatory because the first page or two of replies has really pissed me off.
To those of you jumping in and saying "Oh SC2 is a new game. BW is old, SC2 is new. BW is Korean, SC2 is global. BW is dying, SC2 has potential." You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You really don't. Every time you say "SC2 doesn't need Korea, it has the rest of the world! SC2 has achieved more greatness than BW ever has, just look at HD and Husky compared to nevake and Jon747!" you just make yourself look like an idiot. It's not about Youtube viewers. It's not about random tournaments like ESL/MLG. There's a difference between the little notion you have in your head of "eSports" and what eSports actually is and actually could be. eSports isn't just "oh, look it's SC2 in WCG and hey MLG is sponsoring SC2 as well, SC2 is doing great!" It's not about making a video game just another part of the video game industry, like SSB, WC3, DotA, WoW. It's about LONGEVITY. It's about building a fucking CULTURE. So you have your little SC2 "eSports" for what, two years? Three years? Then the next new awesome video game comes out and everyone jumps on the new bandwagon? What makes Starcraft stand out from all the others? What contributes to its longevity? No, it's not the fact that Blizzard made it. No, it's not the fact that it's a well-designed game. It's the fucking CULTURE. You CAN'T just isolate Korea and look at the rest of the world when it comes to eSports. Because Korea IS fucking eSports.
If you keep looking at SC2 in this way, despite all the hard work the members of the community put in, including HD, Husky, and Day9, SC2 will just end up as another "good" game that will quickly be replaced by the next "big" thing. Sports (without the e) is not about the culture, just to set an example.
Please don't tell me you're seriously. It isn't purely about the culture, but if you're trying to deny that there is a huge meta-cultural background to any major sports and sporting events, you don't have any understanding of sports, E or not.
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Great article... not sure if I agree with the statement of SC2 never succeeding should Kespa, MBC and BW fall and becoming extinct, but you made some really good points in there (WC4 and SC3 especially in conjunction with the aforementioned points). I guess only time will tell what will really happen and, for e-sports sake, I hope you're wrong  . Thanks for the read
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This. Money and tournaments is not an Esport. Social acceptance is. BW created that in Korea. Modeling SC2 off of Korea to become something as accepted as Football would be great. And why was BW able to do what it did? Stability. Let BW slowly die to a developing SC2 to give SC2 a sense of stability and let it develop a Pro-League, not a conglomeration of tournaments for me and my nerd friends to watch.
I want to be able to watch it with my girlfriend who is not a gamer. That's success. SC2 is not a success yet.
Gaming in America is not some "niche" thing. The stereotype of gamers as being exclusively nerds and teenage boys is simply untrue. The fact is, as a guy in my late 20's, I probably don't know a single guy, "nerd" or otherwise, under the age of 40 who doesn't play videogames at least casually.
If SC2 just takes off with gamers, that is still potentially an enormous market. I would wager a guess that significantly more people play and enjoy video games on some level (that is, including *all* games, including handheld games, facebook games, etc.) at this point than, for example, seriously follow Hockey.
I don't really care if my fiance follows SC2. She doesn't follow the NBA or NFL either. If me and my buddies can turn on ESPN2 and see an SC2 tournament some day, that'd be more than enough for me, and I think there are more than enough gamers to create ratings to power that sort of success.
Gamers badly need to get over their inferiority complex about not being "mainstream". Video games *are* a mainstream pasttime, and getting moreso every day. The jump to being a mainstream spectator sport is not so difficult as some folks imagine.
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If poker can make it...
This. If people seriously think SC2 has less inherent appeal as a spectator sport than Poker, I dunno what to say. What makes Poker work are high stakes and compelling personalities which create drama, and announcers/visual aids which help casual viewers follow the action. No reason both of those can't exist for SC2.
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To the norweigan guy, I'd love to see your stats I don't believe there are more than at most a dozen people who make a living off war3, 1gamer doesn't constitute lots of pros.
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SC2/E-Sports will never become more than the niche subculture it is today in NA period.
The mainstream success of BW in Korea is a complete anomaly that will never again be duplicated anywhere else.
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On September 05 2010 09:16 Alexstrasas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 08:18 rackdude wrote:On September 05 2010 07:48 Bhaalgorn wrote:
Looking at the big prize pools of the GSL tournament and Blizzards actual support of SC2 as an e-sport it is obvious they and their Korean partners are opting for the carrot strategy first. Lure progamers in with big prize pools, hoping their skill will generate enough viewers to eventually overtake the BW scene. Thus a smooth transition is possible and no one can say how Blizzard killed the BW scene, they would have merely replaced it.
No, the controversy is that they are NOT doing that kind of transition. Rather, they are saying "Nope, you cannot play your game anymore or have your tournaments. It's illegal." They are opting for the 1 base all in push. They should just be luring BW players with money while they allow their leagues to keep playing, but from the looks of it they aren't going to. They are going to use the law and IP rights to forcibly shut down BW. That's what's up. You are complelty missing the point, there is just no way that Blizzard would be negotiating with Kespa at this point. From a practical point of view, Kespa not allowing pros to play SC2 makes the "luring with tournament money" kinda obsolete, because a steady pay check is always better.
As far as I can see Blizzard just want to make money and if that includes ripping down the pro-broodwar scene then so be it. They want more people on sc2 and more people buying cd's etc. Please do not make them sound virtuous for trying to rid the world of broodwar leagues. The money and revenue that broodwar is making is small peanuts to them and they've not shown much interest in it until it stops them from making a profit, because it turns out game 1 is superior to game 2.
Edit: Ooops, I replied to the wrong post *sigh*
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On September 05 2010 10:30 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 09:16 Alexstrasas wrote:On September 05 2010 08:18 rackdude wrote:On September 05 2010 07:48 Bhaalgorn wrote:
Looking at the big prize pools of the GSL tournament and Blizzards actual support of SC2 as an e-sport it is obvious they and their Korean partners are opting for the carrot strategy first. Lure progamers in with big prize pools, hoping their skill will generate enough viewers to eventually overtake the BW scene. Thus a smooth transition is possible and no one can say how Blizzard killed the BW scene, they would have merely replaced it.
No, the controversy is that they are NOT doing that kind of transition. Rather, they are saying "Nope, you cannot play your game anymore or have your tournaments. It's illegal." They are opting for the 1 base all in push. They should just be luring BW players with money while they allow their leagues to keep playing, but from the looks of it they aren't going to. They are going to use the law and IP rights to forcibly shut down BW. That's what's up. You are complelty missing the point, there is just no way that Blizzard would be negotiating with Kespa at this point. From a practical point of view, Kespa not allowing pros to play SC2 makes the "luring with tournament money" kinda obsolete, because a steady pay check is always better. As far as I can see Blizzard just want to make money and if that includes ripping down the pro-broodwar scene then so be it. They want more people on sc2 and more people buying cd's etc. Please do not make them sound virtuous for trying to rid the world of broodwar leagues. The money and revenue that broodwar is making is small peanuts to them and they've not shown much interest in it until it stops them from making a profit, because it turns out game 1 is superior to game 2. Edit: Ooops, I replied to the wrong post *sigh*
Blizzard gains nothing by killing BW. Killing BW does not mean that SC2 is popular. Right now, korea has SC2 for FREE so people that will want to get it will get it, regardless of the status of BW.
Also, that last remark just shows that you are ridiculously biased. I kinda wish TL would ban people when they have such an obvious bias such as that, as it brings nothing to the discussion and just wastes peoples time.
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On September 05 2010 11:33 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 10:30 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:On September 05 2010 09:16 Alexstrasas wrote:On September 05 2010 08:18 rackdude wrote:On September 05 2010 07:48 Bhaalgorn wrote:
Looking at the big prize pools of the GSL tournament and Blizzards actual support of SC2 as an e-sport it is obvious they and their Korean partners are opting for the carrot strategy first. Lure progamers in with big prize pools, hoping their skill will generate enough viewers to eventually overtake the BW scene. Thus a smooth transition is possible and no one can say how Blizzard killed the BW scene, they would have merely replaced it.
No, the controversy is that they are NOT doing that kind of transition. Rather, they are saying "Nope, you cannot play your game anymore or have your tournaments. It's illegal." They are opting for the 1 base all in push. They should just be luring BW players with money while they allow their leagues to keep playing, but from the looks of it they aren't going to. They are going to use the law and IP rights to forcibly shut down BW. That's what's up. You are complelty missing the point, there is just no way that Blizzard would be negotiating with Kespa at this point. From a practical point of view, Kespa not allowing pros to play SC2 makes the "luring with tournament money" kinda obsolete, because a steady pay check is always better. As far as I can see Blizzard just want to make money and if that includes ripping down the pro-broodwar scene then so be it. They want more people on sc2 and more people buying cd's etc. Please do not make them sound virtuous for trying to rid the world of broodwar leagues. The money and revenue that broodwar is making is small peanuts to them and they've not shown much interest in it until it stops them from making a profit, because it turns out game 1 is superior to game 2. Edit: Ooops, I replied to the wrong post *sigh* Blizzard gains nothing by killing BW. Killing BW does not mean that SC2 is popular. Right now, korea has SC2 for FREE so people that will want to get it will get it, regardless of the status of BW. Also, that last remark just shows that you are ridiculously biased. I kinda wish TL would ban people when they have such an obvious bias such as that, as it brings nothing to the discussion and just wastes peoples time.
What you are saying is that broodwar dying will not cause an influx of players to starcraft2. This makes no sense at all. If people are not playing the one RTS, they will be playing the other which means a lot of marketing value and promo for their product = $$$. In addition, it equals more cd-sales. I'm also talking worldwide, not just Korea. Anyway, if you want to make some constructive points about why I'm wrong, please do that. You can also continue to cry about you wanting me to get banned, without having posted any arguments that underline your case. Honestly, you're the one crying for people to get banned, but you failed to post one single reason, except for me being biased in your view.
If you do not think big firms like Blizzard are very money fixated talk to some people who have played WoW or maybe you should just go and live in happy-land where big multinational corporations care nothing about money...... *sigh*
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On September 05 2010 10:24 gozima wrote:
SC2/E-Sports will never become more than the niche subculture it is today in NA period.
The mainstream success of BW in Korea is a complete anomaly that will never again be duplicated anywhere else.
And you're stating this opinion as fact based on....
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I'm going to try and not get into an, SC2 and BW battle here, but as far as I am concerned. Kespa and Gretech are at fault here. The fans will suffer because of both companies hard headed and stubborn as hell. it's stupid on how far this has fallen through for near unreasonable reasons as far as I am concerned. There both to blame, no side is right.
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On September 05 2010 09:11 Teddyman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 08:09 rackdude wrote:On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL). SC2 fans who have no experience with Broodwar have a misguided impression that having a bunch of big money tournaments and a live event with people on ustream equals an instant Esport hit. But every year large money prize pools are dished out for many mediocre games, sponsored mainly by video card and other gaming gear related companies, and then the game is forgotten a year or two later by the big donors. The success of an esport, as TreeHugger has correctly identified, is defined by sustainability. This. Money and tournaments is not an Esport. Social acceptance is. BW created that in Korea. Modeling SC2 off of Korea to become something as accepted as Football would be great. And why was BW able to do what it did? Stability. Let BW slowly die to a developing SC2 to give SC2 a sense of stability and let it develop a Pro-League, not a conglomeration of tournaments for me and my nerd friends to watch. I want to be able to watch it with my girlfriend who is not a gamer. That's success. SC2 is not a success yet. You're exaggerating how socially accepted gaming is in Korea. If you read progamer interviews, most of them say their parents were opposed to that lifestyle. Of course their parents eventually gave up since they became progamers, but it hints that many kids were denied the chance. All in all it seems the older generation still thinks that games are a waste of time. The country is also fighting increasing internet addiction. Recently we heard news that the government would be blocking access to 19 popular online games for 6 hours a night for underage players. That doesn't sound very much like acceptance to me.
Sorry, but these points are rather silly. Originally, parents were opposed to it because the industry wasn't really established so people didn't realize there was actually money in it. That's why parents of people like Boxer would have been opposed. Nowadays, people know that it's possible to earn a living there, but it's still known to be a very tough environment to live in and if you aren't successful things might not be too great. That's why parents today might not want their kids to be progamers. That has nothing to do with the sport being accepted or not.
As for the internet addiction implying the government don't really accept it.....Korea has a MINISTER for e-sports dude.
The fact is that Starcraft as a sport IS accepted in South Korea, and you can see that every pro game when they show dads or moms with their children or screaming teenage girls.
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On September 04 2010 22:13 Vokasak wrote:
Blizzard isn't killing anything. They're not out of line at all in expecting KeSPA to stop stealing their game. Take a look at how much KeSPA collects from MBC/OSL to pretty much sit on their asses and send refs to a few matches (And then fuck up decisions when they're needed. MSL power outage anyone). You're telling me they can't afford to pay some royalty fees to the company that rightfully owns the game? Get a grip. If BW dies it'll be at the hands of KeSPA's stubbornness.
Look, after 10 years of having no problem with the free advertising and promotion of their game via eSports culture, all of a sudden it is a problem when the sequel comes out? Blizzard is killing it on purpose to emphasize SC2 and because it now realizes it wants to be the only one with control over how SC2 is broadcast & played, everywhere. Big companies can't do anything with the game, they're like puppets.
It's for the money. Blizzard has no respect for the eSports in Korea or what it has done for their company. They ARE killing the culture and monopolizing the tournament scene. They're forcing every match to go through Battle.net for monetary purposes. You can't play overseas players. NaDa got disconnected from TLO in a showmatch to in part bridge the gap between SC1 and SC2 - no one seems to care?
Where is the hellfire rage that.. the old TL.. would have thrown forth?
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I really think whether this nightmare will end well or not depends on the amount of love the koreans put into Broodwar. If they view Broodwar as an essential part of their culture, then when BW is killed, they will go to the street and protest. If they can just gather the same amount of people as in the Proleague Grand Final the Korean gov will be forced to calm down the situation and ensure the continuity of BW proscene. They may just disband Kespa and replace it by a government backed association, and force Blizz to leave BW scene alone (Blizz cannot go headstrong against a 18+ rating threat to SC2).
In the other hand, if they decide to do nothing and let BW die, then BW should just die, because despite its success, people still don't love it enough.
And I think Blizzard should focus on improving SC2's spectator aspect to the same level as BW before trying to stop BW. Instead of using their time and effort to win an e-sport war, why not just balance the game out, add something that makes the game more exiting to watch, why start this whole thing one month after the game's release ? They will probably have 99% chance to win this if they act 1 or 2 year in the future, now it's just a risky gamble.
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I really think whether this nightmare will end well or not depends on the amount of love the koreans put into Broodwar. If they view Broodwar as an essential part of their culture, then when BW is killed, they will go to the street and protest. If they can just gather the same amount of people as in the Proleague Grand Final the Korean gov will be forced to calm down the situation and ensure the continuity of BW proscene. They may just disband Kespa and replace it by a government backed association, and force Blizz to leave BW scene alone (Blizz cannot go headstrong against a 18+ rating threat to SC2).
This....is not how the world works. Protests against things almost never accomplish anything, let alone protests demanding that the government take on a new role.
In the other hand, if they decide to do nothing and let BW die, then BW should just die, because despite its success, people still don't love it enough.
This is dumb. One can love something and be willing to financially support it, but not want to waste your time in useless street protests for it.
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On September 04 2010 18:58 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 18:55 infinity2k9 wrote:
But unfortunately Blizzard seems determined to split it completely. Demanding fair compensation for use of their product is NOT running BW out of business. KeSPA are just refusing to budge and would rather burn BW esports to the ground than have to give up some of their cocaine and hot-tub money. It baffles me how anyone could try and pin BW's demise on Blizzard when KeSPA has been ruining BW for years all by itself with nobody else's help. This is just the next (and possibly last) in a long line of KeSPA fuck-ups.
Use of their product? They are broadcasting games of people using the product. Kespa made Starcraft a sport, not Blizzard. Didn't the Korean government already shoot down Blizzard's claim that it owns anything and everything even remotely related to Starcraft?
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On September 05 2010 17:20 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 10:24 gozima wrote:
SC2/E-Sports will never become more than the niche subculture it is today in NA period.
The mainstream success of BW in Korea is a complete anomaly that will never again be duplicated anywhere else.
And you're stating this opinion as fact based on....
I thought he was being sarcastic.
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On September 05 2010 19:55 bias- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 22:13 Vokasak wrote:
Blizzard isn't killing anything. They're not out of line at all in expecting KeSPA to stop stealing their game. Take a look at how much KeSPA collects from MBC/OSL to pretty much sit on their asses and send refs to a few matches (And then fuck up decisions when they're needed. MSL power outage anyone). You're telling me they can't afford to pay some royalty fees to the company that rightfully owns the game? Get a grip. If BW dies it'll be at the hands of KeSPA's stubbornness. Look, after 10 years of having no problem with the free advertising and promotion of their game via eSports culture, all of a sudden it is a problem when the sequel comes out? Blizzard is killing it on purpose to emphasize SC2 and because it now realizes it wants to be the only one with control over how SC2 is broadcast & played, everywhere. Big companies can't do anything with the game, they're like puppets. It's for the money. Blizzard has no respect for the eSports in Korea or what it has done for their company. They ARE killing the culture and monopolizing the tournament scene. They're forcing every match to go through Battle.net for monetary purposes. You can't play overseas players. NaDa got disconnected from TLO in a showmatch to in part bridge the gap between SC1 and SC2 - no one seems to care? Where is the hellfire rage that.. the old TL.. would have thrown forth?
You sum up my thoughts really well.
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It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport.
You don't offer any proof of this, nor do you lay out an argument for why I should care about what goes on in Korea. ESL/IEM and MLG are making Korea, if not irrelevant, than at least superfluous. The fact that Idra, who is a strong player but at best competitive with the rest of the world, is favored to win GSL suggests that, for now at least, Korea doesn't even have a competitive lead in SC2 (of course the results will speak for themselves).
I realize the Korean pros have been slow to transition, I just don't know why I should care.
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On September 05 2010 09:56 awesomoecalypse wrote:This. If people seriously think SC2 has less inherent appeal as a spectator sport than Poker, I dunno what to say. What makes Poker work are high stakes and compelling personalities which create drama, and announcers/visual aids which help casual viewers follow the action. No reason both of those can't exist for SC2.
Yea but the difference is that poker has appeal to every gender and age bracket...you have poker players who are female 20 year olds or male 70 year olds and everything in between. SC2 only appeals to males under the age of 30. How many middle aged males or females of any age in North America even know what starcraft is? You can't have a succesful televised sport when you only appeal to such a small demographic
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On September 06 2010 03:54 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 09:56 awesomoecalypse wrote:If poker can make it... This. If people seriously think SC2 has less inherent appeal as a spectator sport than Poker, I dunno what to say. What makes Poker work are high stakes and compelling personalities which create drama, and announcers/visual aids which help casual viewers follow the action. No reason both of those can't exist for SC2. Yea but the difference is that poker has appeal to every gender and age bracket...you have poker players who are female 20 year olds or male 70 year olds and everything in between. SC2 only appeals to males under the age of 30. How many middle aged males or females of any age in North America even know what starcraft is? You can't have a succesful televised sport when you only appeal to such a small demographic
You're just making up a lot of bullshit here. Also just because something has a smaller demographic doesn't mean it cant suceed. Lets just say it was for males under 30 only, well thats still a ridiculous amount of people and a great demographic.
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On September 06 2010 03:58 Medzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:54 antelope591 wrote:On September 05 2010 09:56 awesomoecalypse wrote:If poker can make it... This. If people seriously think SC2 has less inherent appeal as a spectator sport than Poker, I dunno what to say. What makes Poker work are high stakes and compelling personalities which create drama, and announcers/visual aids which help casual viewers follow the action. No reason both of those can't exist for SC2. Yea but the difference is that poker has appeal to every gender and age bracket...you have poker players who are female 20 year olds or male 70 year olds and everything in between. SC2 only appeals to males under the age of 30. How many middle aged males or females of any age in North America even know what starcraft is? You can't have a succesful televised sport when you only appeal to such a small demographic You're just making up a lot of bullshit here. Also just because something has a smaller demographic doesn't mean it cant suceed. Lets just say it was for males under 30 only, well thats still a ridiculous amount of people and a great demographic.
Really? Refute my statements then. Not to mention that even if SC2's demographic is more than willing to watch most of them aren't willing or able to put any money into supporting it. Look at a football crowd and 90% of ticket buyers are middle-aged cause they're the ones who can afford it.
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On September 06 2010 03:58 Medzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:54 antelope591 wrote:On September 05 2010 09:56 awesomoecalypse wrote:If poker can make it... This. If people seriously think SC2 has less inherent appeal as a spectator sport than Poker, I dunno what to say. What makes Poker work are high stakes and compelling personalities which create drama, and announcers/visual aids which help casual viewers follow the action. No reason both of those can't exist for SC2. Yea but the difference is that poker has appeal to every gender and age bracket...you have poker players who are female 20 year olds or male 70 year olds and everything in between. SC2 only appeals to males under the age of 30. How many middle aged males or females of any age in North America even know what starcraft is? You can't have a succesful televised sport when you only appeal to such a small demographic You're just making up a lot of bullshit here. Also just because something has a smaller demographic doesn't mean it cant suceed. Lets just say it was for males under 30 only, well thats still a ridiculous amount of people and a great demographic.
The difference with poker is that it's cool, and it has history and cultural staying power. Plus, all it takes to play is cards, tokens, and 10 minutes to teach people.
It's apples and oranges. Poker had a much, much easier path to the mainstream than SC2 will have.
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On September 05 2010 16:51 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 11:33 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 05 2010 10:30 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:On September 05 2010 09:16 Alexstrasas wrote:On September 05 2010 08:18 rackdude wrote:On September 05 2010 07:48 Bhaalgorn wrote:
Looking at the big prize pools of the GSL tournament and Blizzards actual support of SC2 as an e-sport it is obvious they and their Korean partners are opting for the carrot strategy first. Lure progamers in with big prize pools, hoping their skill will generate enough viewers to eventually overtake the BW scene. Thus a smooth transition is possible and no one can say how Blizzard killed the BW scene, they would have merely replaced it.
No, the controversy is that they are NOT doing that kind of transition. Rather, they are saying "Nope, you cannot play your game anymore or have your tournaments. It's illegal." They are opting for the 1 base all in push. They should just be luring BW players with money while they allow their leagues to keep playing, but from the looks of it they aren't going to. They are going to use the law and IP rights to forcibly shut down BW. That's what's up. You are complelty missing the point, there is just no way that Blizzard would be negotiating with Kespa at this point. From a practical point of view, Kespa not allowing pros to play SC2 makes the "luring with tournament money" kinda obsolete, because a steady pay check is always better. As far as I can see Blizzard just want to make money and if that includes ripping down the pro-broodwar scene then so be it. They want more people on sc2 and more people buying cd's etc. Please do not make them sound virtuous for trying to rid the world of broodwar leagues. The money and revenue that broodwar is making is small peanuts to them and they've not shown much interest in it until it stops them from making a profit, because it turns out game 1 is superior to game 2. Edit: Ooops, I replied to the wrong post *sigh* Blizzard gains nothing by killing BW. Killing BW does not mean that SC2 is popular. Right now, korea has SC2 for FREE so people that will want to get it will get it, regardless of the status of BW. Also, that last remark just shows that you are ridiculously biased. I kinda wish TL would ban people when they have such an obvious bias such as that, as it brings nothing to the discussion and just wastes peoples time. What you are saying is that broodwar dying will not cause an influx of players to starcraft2. This makes no sense at all. If people are not playing the one RTS, they will be playing the other which means a lot of marketing value and promo for their product = $$$. In addition, it equals more cd-sales. I'm also talking worldwide, not just Korea. Anyway, if you want to make some constructive points about why I'm wrong, please do that. You can also continue to cry about you wanting me to get banned, without having posted any arguments that underline your case. Honestly, you're the one crying for people to get banned, but you failed to post one single reason, except for me being biased in your view. If you do not think big firms like Blizzard are very money fixated talk to some people who have played WoW or maybe you should just go and live in happy-land where big multinational corporations care nothing about money...... *sigh*
I obviously dont have any of these numbers, but we can get some rough guesses here. How many people actually still play BW? How many that still play BW havent already played SC2? Do you really think that these numbers are big enough that it would be an influx of people wanting to play SC2 if BW was suddenly no longer popular on the pro scene? I just cant see that the esports scene dying (if it does die) will have any effect at all on SC2 sales, especially since people in this thread state that a lot of people that WATCH BW dont actually play it.
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On September 05 2010 19:55 bias- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 22:13 Vokasak wrote:
Blizzard isn't killing anything. They're not out of line at all in expecting KeSPA to stop stealing their game. Take a look at how much KeSPA collects from MBC/OSL to pretty much sit on their asses and send refs to a few matches (And then fuck up decisions when they're needed. MSL power outage anyone). You're telling me they can't afford to pay some royalty fees to the company that rightfully owns the game? Get a grip. If BW dies it'll be at the hands of KeSPA's stubbornness. Look, after 10 years of having no problem with the free advertising and promotion of their game via eSports culture, all of a sudden it is a problem when the sequel comes out? Blizzard is killing it on purpose to emphasize SC2 and because it now realizes it wants to be the only one with control over how SC2 is broadcast & played, everywhere. Big companies can't do anything with the game, they're like puppets. It's for the money. Blizzard has no respect for the eSports in Korea or what it has done for their company. They ARE killing the culture and monopolizing the tournament scene. They're forcing every match to go through Battle.net for monetary purposes. You can't play overseas players. NaDa got disconnected from TLO in a showmatch to in part bridge the gap between SC1 and SC2 - no one seems to care? Where is the hellfire rage that.. the old TL.. would have thrown forth?
You obvisouly have no ideia what you are talking about.
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded.
2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA.
3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament.
4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.'
5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea
6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this.
7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online.
8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee.
9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games.
10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting.
11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard.
12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches.
13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business.
14. Blizzard got really mad.
15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft.
16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA.
17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball.
18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea.
19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime.
20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain.
21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason.
22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA.
23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard.
24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard)
25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV
26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA.
27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA.
28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2.
29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs.
30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League).
31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA.
32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2
33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany.
34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem.
35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
This is taken from an old thread about the Nada vs TLO issue.
This issue goes back atleast to 2007, so no Blizzard didnt allowed Kespa to do whatever for 10 years.
Would be nice if ppl informed themselves before going on fanboy rage spree
Once more, it doesnt matter if you like Kespa, BW or the scene in SK, there is just no fucken way that Blizzard is going to cooperate with Kespa at this point.
Again im not seeing how its Blizzards fault that Kespa = SCBW, also im not seeing any other organization turning up to try to keep SCBW alive.
If SCBW is really that big then surely it should be able to survive without Kespa.
Where is the hellfire rage that.. the old TL.. would have thrown forth?
Dunno maybe they are open minded and actualy like SC2?
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On September 05 2010 09:31 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 03:49 latan wrote:On September 04 2010 14:49 Saracen wrote:
Ok, sorry if this comes off as inflammatory because the first page or two of replies has really pissed me off.
To those of you jumping in and saying "Oh SC2 is a new game. BW is old, SC2 is new. BW is Korean, SC2 is global. BW is dying, SC2 has potential." You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You really don't. Every time you say "SC2 doesn't need Korea, it has the rest of the world! SC2 has achieved more greatness than BW ever has, just look at HD and Husky compared to nevake and Jon747!" you just make yourself look like an idiot. It's not about Youtube viewers. It's not about random tournaments like ESL/MLG. There's a difference between the little notion you have in your head of "eSports" and what eSports actually is and actually could be. eSports isn't just "oh, look it's SC2 in WCG and hey MLG is sponsoring SC2 as well, SC2 is doing great!" It's not about making a video game just another part of the video game industry, like SSB, WC3, DotA, WoW. It's about LONGEVITY. It's about building a fucking CULTURE. So you have your little SC2 "eSports" for what, two years? Three years? Then the next new awesome video game comes out and everyone jumps on the new bandwagon? What makes Starcraft stand out from all the others? What contributes to its longevity? No, it's not the fact that Blizzard made it. No, it's not the fact that it's a well-designed game. It's the fucking CULTURE. You CAN'T just isolate Korea and look at the rest of the world when it comes to eSports. Because Korea IS fucking eSports.
If you keep looking at SC2 in this way, despite all the hard work the members of the community put in, including HD, Husky, and Day9, SC2 will just end up as another "good" game that will quickly be replaced by the next "big" thing. Sports (without the e) is not about the culture, just to set an example. Please don't tell me you're seriously. It isn't purely about the culture, but if you're trying to deny that there is a huge meta-cultural background to any major sports and sporting events, you don't have any understanding of sports, E or not.
2 things
one: you're saying then that stacraft isn't any different from all that? because I was criticizing a post for putting starcraft above all similar things. not sure what your point is here matey.
two: this is true in anything that involves a big number of people. the argument still holds, it is not the meta cultural background that builds the sport, game, activity, or whatever, it is just a natural consequence of people being people and liking things.
actually let's make it 3 things.
three: lol @ "if you can't ... then you have no understanding of ...." i can't tell you how many times i've seen that type of thing at this forum, i'm sorry that isn't an argument, even if you had a point there, please don't say things like that, in the end all it means is that you're arrogant enough to think that YOU know all that is and the other don't.
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On September 06 2010 04:30 Alexstrasas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 19:55 bias- wrote:On September 04 2010 22:13 Vokasak wrote:
Blizzard isn't killing anything. They're not out of line at all in expecting KeSPA to stop stealing their game. Take a look at how much KeSPA collects from MBC/OSL to pretty much sit on their asses and send refs to a few matches (And then fuck up decisions when they're needed. MSL power outage anyone). You're telling me they can't afford to pay some royalty fees to the company that rightfully owns the game? Get a grip. If BW dies it'll be at the hands of KeSPA's stubbornness. Look, after 10 years of having no problem with the free advertising and promotion of their game via eSports culture, all of a sudden it is a problem when the sequel comes out? Blizzard is killing it on purpose to emphasize SC2 and because it now realizes it wants to be the only one with control over how SC2 is broadcast & played, everywhere. Big companies can't do anything with the game, they're like puppets. It's for the money. Blizzard has no respect for the eSports in Korea or what it has done for their company. They ARE killing the culture and monopolizing the tournament scene. They're forcing every match to go through Battle.net for monetary purposes. You can't play overseas players. NaDa got disconnected from TLO in a showmatch to in part bridge the gap between SC1 and SC2 - no one seems to care? Where is the hellfire rage that.. the old TL.. would have thrown forth? You obvisouly have no ideia what you are talking about. + Show Spoiler +1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded.
2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA.
3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament.
4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.'
5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea
6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this.
7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online.
8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee.
9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games.
10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting.
11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard.
12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches.
13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business.
14. Blizzard got really mad.
15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft.
16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA.
17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball.
18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea.
19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime.
20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain.
21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason.
22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA.
23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard.
24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard)
25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV
26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA.
27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA.
28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2.
29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs.
30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League).
31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA.
32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2
33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany.
34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem.
35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time. This is taken from an old thread about the Nada vs TLO issue. This issue goes back atleast to 2007, so no Blizzard didnt allowed Kespa to do whatever for 10 years. Would be nice if ppl informed themselves before going on fanboy rage spree Once more, it doesnt matter if you like Kespa, BW or the scene in SK, there is just no fucken way that Blizzard is going to cooperate with Kespa at this point. Again im not seeing how its Blizzards fault that Kespa = SCBW, also im not seeing any other organization turning up to try to keep SCBW alive. If SCBW is really that big then surely it should be able to survive without Kespa. Dunno maybe they are open minded and actualy like SC2?
If the facts are as you state them, I stand corrected.
I suppose I've always had separate problems with KeSPA (haven't we all...) but the overall BW fanbase/playerbase is what's being undermined here... I suppose at the hands of KeSPA? Even so, Blizzard really is not doing anyone any favors with B.net 2.0 or the retarded way multiplayer SC2 is lined up.
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EPT
