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Ah, Wiki-stage. Where desperate uninformed subjects hastily finds some vague internet reference sources to silence the opponents.
Let's see what we have here.
"Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups"
So where's the confusion?
....Because I was not aware you were only SPECIFICALLY talking about Extortion Rackets, which seems to be the implication of you post. Instead, I thought were saying Kespa, in general, was structured like a criminal organization, and that somehow made it inherently bad.
Are you really that retarded or are you just trying to troll? You say "Kespa is like a criminal organization" and you somehow expect me to magically know you were saying "Kespa is like a criminal organization's extortion racket".
Ah, Wiki-stage. Where desperate uninformed subjects hastily finds some vague internet reference sources to silence the opponents.
Jesus christ. I pulled those pages to show YOU because you're so dense. I don't even see why I would need a page on extortion or criminal organizations in this argument.
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year.
Why so thick-headed? Having fun smelling Kespa's gorge?
So you are now changing your argument to Kespa runs an extortion racket. Why did it take you ten posts to communicate a single fucking thought? Seriously?
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year.
Why so thick-headed? Having fun smelling Kespa's gorge?
You just communicated the thought that Kespa paid services are worthless because they are extortion, and it is extortion because its paid services are worthless.
srsly bro? Srsly?
lols.
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Also would you stop going around posting common knowledge like your the only one who knew? Its very annoying.
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5930 Posts
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year.
I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting.
I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts.
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On September 04 2010 16:56 Half wrote:
You just said Kespa paid services are worthless because it runs an extortion racket, and it runs an extortion racket because its paid services are worthless.
Quote me on where I say that, buddy. I dare you.
Also would you stop going around posting common knowledge like your the only one who knew? Its very annoying.
Thanks for acting like unaware mentally-challenged person until I told you that. Maybe you were really unaware until I told you that.
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On September 04 2010 16:13 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
I would argue that old BW players who think that new players know nothing about what new players think 'success' means in e-sports are the ones being naive. Being an SC2 fan and being knowledgeable about and appreciative of BW aren't mutually exclusive. This BW vs SC2 tribalism is divisive and destructive.
BW is a great sport because the level of play is so high, not because dragoons are better than stalkers. We can have that level of play in SC2 if the top players move over. BW is going to die and SC2 is the only heir to the throne. BW die hards need to acknowledge that and show their support for SC2. It can be a great game, too.
I agree somewhat... I think what's really needed for the longevity of the scene is a successful, predictable and repeatable transitions. Maybe SC2 won't ever be exciting enough for some people, and that in it of itself is a problematic issue for eSports. Just as Street Fighter 2 could not be the headliner in a major tournament 20 years after its debut, it will be more and more difficult to sustain BW I think.
What Blizzard and any organization needs to do is somehow figure out a way for the scene to smoothly transition games, teams, players. It doesn't do anyone any favors when BW is forced to close down, nor is it a good if sequels can never succeed.
I am not saying it needs to happen now, and maybe SC2 will never be good enough, I don't know. I really don't think a single game can last forever, and it'd be great to be assured continuity in some way.
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i knew this thread would just be full of people trashing bw. there are some great points in the OP and it was a really nice read.
the real conflict is that GOM believes that kespa is a huge barrier to the GSL's success and they aren't wrong. maybe they expect sc2 to fill the void if bw is killed off? seems kind of risky to me. they're just going to be seen as the villains in all of this.
it took blood sweat and tears to make esports what it is today, it's very presumptuous of them to think they can come in with a ton of money and some publicity to try to uproot bw.
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to be honest i am completely uninterested in SCBW anymore
its actions the past year has shown me its nothing but corrupt and needing to be put down
the problem is its trying to throw its weight arround and hinder the development of the next generation of games
its very disrespectful to its legacy that their actions as of late is what we will remember it for
shows VERY poor judgement
if they want to continue operating they needed to change and accept new things
but now all i wait is for all intrest in the game to die and for them to stop messing with its predecessor
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On September 04 2010 17:01 gaggar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 16:56 Half wrote:
You just said Kespa paid services are worthless because it runs an extortion racket, and it runs an extortion racket because its paid services are worthless.
Quote me on where I say that, buddy. I dare you.
ok
By funding I hope you meant raping millions of dollars off of 2 broadcasting networks every year.
By organizing I hope you meant sending in few judges and observers and calling it a day.
By popularizing it I hope you meant taking the credit off of star players who worked their asses off like Boxer, Nada, Oov, reach, yellow, and dozens of others.
If Kespa hadn't been so greedy, OSL and MSL prize money could have been in 5 digits, not 4.
You don't seem to understand how criminal organizations work.
Hint: They work like Kespa.
Kespa=Does nothing but extort people.
then
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year.
Why so thick-headed? Having fun smelling Kespa's gorge?
Kespa=Extorts because they ask money but still don't do anything
wut brilliant reasoning.
Look I'll tell you why this is broken. It broke because your attempting to apply ethical reasoning into something that doesn't intrinsically involve ethics.
Kespa, does in fact, charge exorbitant, even unethical, amounts of money, for what they do. I'll readily concede that. And you can bet that most of that just goes into rich mens pockets. That doesn't change the fact however, that they still do stuff, regardless of how inefficient, and all things considered, they have pretty easily contributed with a net positive.
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I don't see anybody defining what they mean by success. SC 2 may be sucessful if you define it as having some small tournaments that are watched by.some people online. If you define successful as starting where BW left off and growing beyond that then no they can't be successful without Korea. If they don't do a 180 in their negotiations with Kespa then SC 2 will not be successful in Korea. Blizzard may not like it and you may not like it but Kespa will be able to keep SC 2 from becoming a successful e-sport in Korea.
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This thread sucks now. >:[
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On September 04 2010 16:48 gaggar wrote:Ah, Wiki-stage. Where desperate uninformed subjects hastily finds some vague internet reference sources to silence the opponents. Let's see what we have here. "Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups"So where's the confusion? Show nested quote +
Assuming you did mean "Kespa is an Extortion Racket", it would be retarded, because extortion rackets simply extort without providing any forced services in return, while Kespa does indeed provide some amount of service. The amount of service they provide is debatable, but completely irrelevant to the comments you made comparing them to an "criminal organization" (Extortion Racket)?
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know. Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. Why so thick-headed? Having fun smelling Kespa's gorge?
Could you two please stop hijacking this thread with all your flames and ramblings about unimportant things.
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On September 04 2010 16:58 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting. I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts.
http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=2&dirId=20204&docId=40241639&qb=7LyA7Iqk7YyMIDE37Ja1&enc=utf8§ion=kin&rank=4&search_sort=0&spq=0
It was a big news during 2007 when Kespa openly demanded around 170,000,000 KRW for both channels respectively. So that's roughly about 1.7m, not 17m like I remembered, but still a lot of money for companies on a barefoot like OGN.
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On September 04 2010 13:27 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 12:51 Zato-1 wrote:On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
Yet we as a community, both Sc2 and BW must reject these lines of thinking. The untimely death of the BW scene is a disaster not only for that specific industry, but for Sc2 and esports as well. If the BW scene dies this year, then Sc2 cannot and will not succeed.
(...)
In killing BW, however, Sc2 is a parasite killing its host. It is only through BW, that Sc2 can reasonably be expected to make it as an esport. If Gretech and Blizzard pull the outstretched hand of Kespa into the water with them, then there will be no one left to help Sc2 onto the boat.
(...)
In sum, I have one major point. Sc2 needs BW if it wants to succeed. To expect Sc2 to emerge, like a phoenix, from the ashes of a newly terminated Brood War is gross naiveté. I read the entirety of your post, and found no adequate justification for any of these statements. I can tell you put a lot of time and feeling into this, but instead of seeing logical steps and a well-supported core argument, I see logical jumps everywhere and statements that are as controversial as they are unfounded. Why would SC2 fare better with BW alive? Would the audience continue watching BW, migrate to SC2, or enjoy both? Why is only Korea relevant to the development of e-Sports? What about the storm clouds converging over the BW scene, with coaches resigning/being fired, teams attempting to disband and match-fixing scandals? Does this not merit to consider the possibility that the BW scene is rotting from within? What about the players and commentators who've made a smooth transition to the SC2 scene- more top-level foreigners than you can count, Tester, JulyZerg, Day[9], and the rise of new commentators in HD and Husky among others? What about the SC2 teams and training houses already setting up shop in Korea? Why should the SC2 fans care that the BW scene is hemorrhaging talent, if that talent is migrating straight to SC2? What about all the WC3 pros who are migrating to SC2, and from other strategy games as well- like fan-favorite TLO coming from having played Supreme Commander? Your post is made from a BW perspective. You don't seem to be in touch with the SC2 scene- or if you are, you don't reflect that in your post. All in all, I completely disagree with your conclusions; I see no reason why SC2 cannot succeed if BW dies. All this stuff about wc3-pros going over to sc2 is kinda rubbish, there are virtually no pros in wc3. SC2 is not as spectator friendly as SC1, so you thinking that breaking down the sc1 will help sc2 flurish is completely incorrect. WC3 was a kind of follow up to broodwar just like sc2 and look at where that game is now competetively. The scene is completely dead, in total it hasn't even been as popular as mods made for it, like DOTA. SC-2 will be great if Blizzard work hard at improving the game experience etc., but the problem is that they're too often too busy stuffing their pockets with money. I thought the OP's post made more sense than your did and didn't draw his conclusions as loosely.
support to the previous post: actually there are wc3 pros. but they arent that famous cause when you talk to a pc gamer(well at least here in the philippines) about wc3, the first thing that comes to their mind is DotA. but if you ask about, lets say single player, they wouldnt even know who thrall is etc. the fact that SC2 is a very young game makes it somewhat disappointing to watch. if you would look at it, its called Starcraft 2, so if you would make an analysis, it is Starcraft part 2 with better graphics and added gameplay. yet SC2 only got the better graphics part. the gameplay was freakishly dumbed down so when i watch SC2 i say "anybody can do that, why be amazed" while when i look at BW "wow how does he do that with ease?". BW is fun to watch cause it requires great skill to play, which for me, is the characteristic of the game that makes it fun. most people enjoy the game when they win, but they dont get the fact that you learn less if you win more and learn more if you win less. and the fact that its a battle between a new game played by old players vs an old game played by young players, i think we know why the old game still lives on right? =p
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On September 04 2010 17:04 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:01 gaggar wrote:On September 04 2010 16:56 Half wrote:
You just said Kespa paid services are worthless because it runs an extortion racket, and it runs an extortion racket because its paid services are worthless.
Quote me on where I say that, buddy. I dare you. ok Show nested quote +
By funding I hope you meant raping millions of dollars off of 2 broadcasting networks every year.
By organizing I hope you meant sending in few judges and observers and calling it a day.
By popularizing it I hope you meant taking the credit off of star players who worked their asses off like Boxer, Nada, Oov, reach, yellow, and dozens of others.
If Kespa hadn't been so greedy, OSL and MSL prize money could have been in 5 digits, not 4.
You don't seem to understand how criminal organizations work.
Hint: They work like Kespa.
Kespa=Does nothing but extort people. then Show nested quote +
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year.
Why so thick-headed? Having fun smelling Kespa's gorge?
Extorts because they ask money but still don't do anything wut brilliant reasoning.
Riiiiggghhhttt. Got anything else? I want to hear it.
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On September 04 2010 17:09 gaggar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 16:58 Womwomwom wrote:Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting. I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts. http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=2&dirId=20204&docId=40241639&qb=7LyA7Iqk7YyMIDE37Ja1&enc=utf8§ion=kin&rank=4&search_sort=0&spq=0It was a big news during 2007 when Kespa openly demanded around 170,000,000 KRW for both channels respectively. So that's roughly about 1.7m, not 17m like I remembered, but still a lot of money for companies on a barefoot like OGN.
Actually it is 1,700,000,000 KRW so it is 17m correctly. I was right.
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On September 04 2010 17:09 gaggar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 16:58 Womwomwom wrote:Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting. I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts. http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=2&dirId=20204&docId=40241639&qb=7LyA7Iqk7YyMIDE37Ja1&enc=utf8§ion=kin&rank=4&search_sort=0&spq=0It was a big news during 2007 when Kespa openly demanded around 170,000,000 KRW for both channels respectively. So that's roughly about 1.7m, not 17m like I remembered, but still a lot of money for companies on a barefoot like OGN.
They had demanded that money for who? Cost of operating a pro team are huge.
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On September 04 2010 17:12 gaggar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:09 gaggar wrote:On September 04 2010 16:58 Womwomwom wrote:Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting. I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts. http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=2&dirId=20204&docId=40241639&qb=7LyA7Iqk7YyMIDE37Ja1&enc=utf8§ion=kin&rank=4&search_sort=0&spq=0It was a big news during 2007 when Kespa openly demanded around 170,000,000 KRW for both channels respectively. So that's roughly about 1.7m, not 17m like I remembered, but still a lot of money for companies on a barefoot like OGN. Actually it is 1,700,000,000 KRW but it is still 1.7m
http://papercut.tistory.com/40
Other sources on the 2007 ruckus. Kespa asks 1.7m from both channels, so 3.4m in total.
At the time OGN secured shinhan sponsor and shinhan gave them 6m for 3 years, which means OGN had fund to run their entire network for 2m per year.
Taking kespa's 1.7m per year, then OGN had meager fund of 0.3m per year.
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On September 04 2010 17:12 gaggar wrote:
Actually it is 1,700,000,000 KRW so it is 17m correctly. I was right.
1.7 billion won is 1.45 million usd.
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On September 04 2010 17:14 Polis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:09 gaggar wrote:On September 04 2010 16:58 Womwomwom wrote:Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year. I'm curious gaggar, where do you get these figures. I'm not saying that you're incorrect I'm just asking for sources because I find the MBC/OGN and Kespa relationship interesting. I've read a lot of posts on this site but this is the first time I've actually heard of a tangible amount instead of the usual vague "Kespa is making a lot of money" or "OGN and MBC are nearly bankrupt" type of posts. http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=2&dirId=20204&docId=40241639&qb=7LyA7Iqk7YyMIDE37Ja1&enc=utf8§ion=kin&rank=4&search_sort=0&spq=0It was a big news during 2007 when Kespa openly demanded around 170,000,000 KRW for both channels respectively. So that's roughly about 1.7m, not 17m like I remembered, but still a lot of money for companies on a barefoot like OGN. They had demanded that money for who? Cost of operating a pro team are huge.
Cost of running the official team comes from respective company's official bank.
Kespa's fund expenditures are kept hidden.
Kespa does not advertise BWPL, Kespa hires very few people. Kespa spends very little.
Whereabouts of rest of the money? Your guess.
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5930 Posts
So what prevented OGN and MBC from simply saying "no"? That is a significant amount of money if what you, and those sources, are true. I don't imagine MBC and On Media are so weak that they basically had to take it up the ass.
Also isn't Kespa basically run by the proteam sponsors (KT, SKT, etc)?
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On September 04 2010 17:19 Tyrio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 17:12 gaggar wrote:
Actually it is 1,700,000,000 KRW so it is 17m correctly. I was right. 1.7 billion won is 1.45 million usd.
Bah, okay. fixing. I always get that damn thing confused.
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EPT
