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End of story. No buts or ifs. Thanks for ending your own argument.
I'm sorry, but you're inconceivably dumb :/ . We are not discussing whether or not Kespa is the perfect system. We are discussing whether or not, throughout their history, have made a net positive or negative effect on the scene. Have you forgotten what the hell we were talking about?
You do understand the concept of extortion, right? Making threats and robbing money from already underfunded business owners?
You do understand the fact that criminal organizations do stuff other than just drug trade?
Seriously, is that your view of the world? Every criminal organizations in the world shipping drug mules? Is that the extent of your 'analogy'?
Look. This is isn't complicated Criminal Organizations is to crime as Kespa is to Starcraft 2 I was using drugs as an example. Ever heard of one?
And criminal organizations make crime "better", and more efficient, as does, Kespa, using unethical means, but unethical on different scales (one in relationship to business, the other in relationship to crime)
If you had a point somewhere else in this stream of incoherency you produce, its entirely irrelevant because this debate is not about the morality of Kespa, but whether or not they are a net benefit to the development of progaming. Perhaps you were saying because the business model of Kespa resembles an extortion racket. Even if it did, which it doesn't, it would be entirely fucking irrelevant because this is not a debate about ethics.
Seriously, is that your view of the world? Every criminal organizations in the world shipping drug mules? Is that the extent of your 'analogy'?
Every criminal organization exists to make profit in an illicit means. This is predominately done through drugs, illegal pharmaceuticals, arms sales and cybercrimes. Extortion rackets are actually probably the least effective monymaker for criminal organizations, but rather, exist to maintain power over an area and express dominance. .
In fact, after rereading your first post your the one who seems to not have any idea what you are talking about. Instead of using the blanket term "criminal organization", which could refer to anything, you could have used "extortion racket". Which would have resulted in you making a completely irrelevant, but coherent, post.
Sorry but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.talking about in relation to anything.
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On September 04 2010 15:57 Grezi wrote:
If you want SCII to become a success you need korea (right now)
I disagree. Korea served as the pilot business model for esports. I'm pretty sure there are investors looking for media companies to televise ESport games for the new influx generation of 'cyber people' thus starting the business model. I believe the trick is, are there actual 'cyber people' that want televised games and game networks? The answer is yes I suppose. Just like people that pay to watch something pay-per-view or going to a live event with front row seats and all, the 'entertainment' value is something that is experienced, as why you can only say appreciate basketball to fanatic level if you actually play basketball and understand the skills/players behind the teams.
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On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL).
I think this is the point that resonates most to me...the OP makes great points and it's in Blizz's best interest to gain a good foothold for SC2 in Korea. That's because a successful e-sport really boils down to success in this country. There is no chance in hell e-sports will get as big in the west as BW is in Korea at least not in SC2's lifetime. Try to picture a large crowd of North American middle aged adults watching a match of SC2 or bringing their kids to a match of SC2....or teenage girls bringing signs to cheer on their favorite players. If your actually familiar with American culture the image of this is so outrageous you can't even picture it without LoLing. Koreans actually embraced this game as the equivalent of a sport, while 90% of people in the west still think video games in general are a waste of time. So how can people seriously expect e-sports to be as huge a success here as in Korea?
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On September 04 2010 16:05 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 13:32 Trap wrote:
New SC2 fans have no idea what "success" means in terms of e-sport. Only Broodwar has managed to gather non-video game nerds as a major part of the audience (it's acceptable to be a teenage girl and go see proleague or bring your kids to go see OSL). I think this is the point that resonates most to me...the OP makes great points and it's in Blizz's best interest to gain a good foothold for SC2 in Korea. That's because a successful e-sport really boils down to success in this country. There is no chance in hell e-sports will get as big in the west as BW is in Korea at least not in SC2's lifetime. Try to picture a large crowd of North American middle aged adults watching a match of SC2 or bringing their kids to a match of SC2....or teenage girls bringing signs to cheer on their favorite players. If your actually familiar with American culture the image of this is so outrageous you can't even picture it without LoLing. Koreans actually embraced this game as the equivalent of a sport, while 90% of people in the west still think video games in general are a waste of time. So how can people seriously expect e-sports to be as huge a success here as in Korea?
On non-video game nerds. I think the fame and media attention that these players are getting excites enough people. To be a successful gamer is awesome. To be a successful gamer made popular in the media is awesomer! (attracts the 'omg celebrity person' crowd) To be a successful gamer/popular and be as HANDSOME AS BISU is AWESOMEST! (attracts that have my protoss babies crowd)
To attract non-sc2 people to sc2 events, you simply need to be a local celebrity.
triple edit: if lebron james that wasn't a 6'8" CRAZY good basketball player and make 100trillion would many women (or men) actually be interested in him right away?
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On September 04 2010 16:02 Half wrote:I'm sorry, but you're inconceivably dumb :/ . We are not discussing whether or not Kespa is the perfect system. We are discussing whether or not, throughout their history, have made a net positive or negative effect on the scene. Have you forgotten what the hell we were talking about? Show nested quote +You do understand the concept of extortion, right? Making threats and robbing money from already underfunded business owners?
You do understand the fact that criminal organizations do stuff other than just drug trade?
Seriously, is that your view of the world? Every criminal organizations in the world shipping drug mules? Is that the extent of your 'analogy'? You are just so incredibly dense. Criminal Organizations is to crime as Kespa is to Starcraft 2 I was using drugs as an example. Ever heard of one? And criminal organizations make crime "better", and more efficient, as does, Kespa, using unethical means, but unethical on different scales (one in relationship to business, the other in relationship to killing people) If you had a point somewhere else in this stream of incoherency you produce, its entirely irrelevant because this debate is not about the morality of Kespa, but whether or not they are a net benefit to the development of progaming.
Who's being 'inconceivably dumb' here? Let me give you a hint because you're not getting it: YOU.
And criminal organizations make crime "better", and more efficient, as does, Kespa, using unethical means, but unethical on different scales (one in relationship to business, the other in relationship to killing people)
Are you fucking kidding me?
And criminal organizations make crime "better", and more efficient, as does, Kespa, using unethical means
You're either 'inconceivably dumb' or too young to understand the concept of 'shift of wealth'. You just now basically said yourself Kespa is pocking all the money for themselves while the players are standing naked in a coke filled room packaging them while their lungs witter away.
How is taking away from players, organizers, networks as much as possible for the sole profit of their own organization beneficial for the scene?
What a thick-head.
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I would argue that old BW players who think that new players know nothing about what new players think 'success' means in e-sports are the ones being naive. Being an SC2 fan and being knowledgeable about and appreciative of BW aren't mutually exclusive. This BW vs SC2 tribalism is divisive and destructive.
BW is a great sport because the level of play is so high, not because dragoons are better than stalkers. We can have that level of play in SC2 if the top players move over. BW is going to die and SC2 is the only heir to the throne. BW die hards need to acknowledge that and show their support for SC2. It can be a great game, too.
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You're either retarded or too young to understand the concept of 'shift of wealth'. You just now basically said yourself Kespa is pocking all the money for themselves while the players are standing naked in a coke filled room packaging them while their lungs witter away.
How is taking away from players, organizers, networks as much as possible for the sole profit of their own organization works for the scene?
What a thick-head.
You just now basically said yourself Kespa is pocking all the money for themselves while the players are standing naked in a coke filled room packaging them while their lungs witter away.
Please outline where I said that.
Yes, Kespa makes a profit off its services. I don't understand why your trying to bring in the ethics of their business into a debate about their contributions to the Starcraft scene.
Plus your analogy still makes no fucking sense. What exactly is "Criminal Organizations" relationship to Kespa? Their business model? You realize criminal organization is not synonymous with "extortion racket right?
How is taking away from players, organizers, networks as much as possible for the sole profit of their own organization works for the scene
What the fuck are you talking about? They take a cut, and the rest is used to organize and advertise esports.
Your Criminal Organization analogy is literally incoherent in every single way.
If Criminal Organizations are to crime the same way Kespa is to Starcraft, then its a benefit. (which is what I thought you meant at first)
If you meant extortion rackets (not synonymous with criminals organizations fyi) is to society as Kespa is to Starcraft, then it just makes no fucking sense because Extortion rackets do not take "cuts". They do not use a portion the money they coerce to organize or better the thing they're "extorting" from. On the other hand, the money Kespa Coerces, obviously a lot of that is for profit, but they also use it to support what they're actually doing, providing a central organization for esports.
please, learn to construct coherent analogies before using them.
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On September 04 2010 16:13 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
BW is a great sport because the level of play is so high, not because dragoons are better than stalkers. We can have that level of play in SC2 if the top players move over. BW is going to die and SC2 is the only heir to the throne. BW die hards need to acknowledge that and show their support for SC2. It can be a great game, too.
Why should they move over? You've said yourself in an earlier post that Brood War is an incredibly deep and complex game. Why should thousands of fans and players move over to a newer game that is noticeably shallower and less exciting to watch (watching Idra fend off Morrow's reapers doesn't hold a candle to Flash defending Jaedong's mutalisks, sorry)? Because it's new and shiny? Because Blizz is trying to shove it down our throats?
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In fact, after rereading your first post your the one who seems to not have any idea what you are talking about. Instead of using the blanket term "criminal organization", which could refer to anything, you could have used "extortion racket". Which would have resulted in you making a completely irrelevant, but coherent, post.
Sorry but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.talking about in relation to anything.
Your word against mine. YOU have no idea. You're not even Korean. I grew up here, I know how the politicians are, I know how these organizations work, and it must be a great feeling when you think you know what you're talking about after watching 'loose change' documentary for 10 minutes.
This place is a harsh place for people without power, buddy. People can lose their livelihood just for speaking against the dear LMB. You seriously have NO idea what you're talking about.
Are they absolutely brutal on a scale incomparable with kespa? Yes. Do they exist for a very damn good reason and do great "benefit" tot he Drug Trade? Yes. Trust me, your pot would triple in price if it weren't for them.
Please outline where I said 'drug' before you did.
What the fuck are you talking about? They take a cut, and the rest is used to organize and advertise esports.
do you even know how much MBC and OGN makes, and how much Kespa took? Do you?
You babble and babble but nothing comes out of it. Why?
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On September 04 2010 16:13 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
I would argue that old BW players who think that new players know nothing about what new players think 'success' means in e-sports are the ones being naive. Being an SC2 fan and being knowledgeable about and appreciative of BW aren't mutually exclusive. This BW vs SC2 tribalism is divisive and destructive.
BW is a great sport because the level of play is so high, not because dragoons are better than stalkers. We can have that level of play in SC2 if the top players move over. BW is going to die and SC2 is the only heir to the throne. BW die hards need to acknowledge that and show their support for SC2. It can be a great game, too.
BW is going to die because it is forced to do so. The organization and community around is still very much intact compared to SC2.
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Your Criminal Organization analogy is literally incoherent in every single way.
If Criminal Organizations are to crime the same way Kespa is to Starcraft, then its a benefit. (which is what I thought you meant at first)
If you meant extortion rackets (not synonymous with criminals organizations fyi) is to society as Kespa is to Starcraft, then it just makes no fucking sense because Extortion rackets do not take "cuts". They do not use a portion the money they coerce to organize or better the thing they're "extorting" from. On the other hand, the money Kespa Coerces, obviously a lot of that is for profit, but they also use it to support what they're actually doing, providing a central organization for esports.
please, learn to construct coherent analogies before using them.
I don't think you're even able to construct your own thoughts in a coherent manner.
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Your word against mine. YOU have no idea. You're not even Korean. I grew up here, I know how the politicians are, I know how these organizations work, and it must be a great feeling when you think you know what you're talking about after watching 'loose change' documentary for 10 minutes.
This place is a harsh place for people without power, buddy. People can lose their livelihood just for speaking against the dear LMB. You seriously have NO idea what you're talking about.
What the fuck are you talking about? All I'm saying is your analogy makes no fucking sense because you apparently used the general word "criminal organization" instead of "extortion racket".
I'm not talking about korea at all. wtf. And when I did talk about Korea, I agreed with whatever the fuck you were saying, and told you it was irrelevent. Maybe I'm being harsh cuz your Korean and your english comprehension isn't that great, in which case I apologize.
But that comment is literally the definition of a non siquitar :/.
Please outline where I said 'drug' before you did.
You said criminal organization, which includes the drug trade, so I thought you meant, you know, criminal organizations. Perhaps you meant "extortion racket".
What the fuck are you talking about? They take a cut, and the rest is used to organize and advertise esports.
do you even know how much MBC and OGN makes, and how much Kespa took? Do you?
You babble and babble but nothing comes out of it. Why?
A lot? 50% 80% So what? What the fuck are you exactly say?
If you think thats unethical, ok, but we are not debating ethics you. You are bringing up entirely irrelevant points. Are you arguing that cut stymies the growth of BW tournaments?
I don't think you're even able to construct your own thoughts in a coherent manner.
Has it ever occurred to you that you just can't read? Or think in a coherent fashion?
This is what I was attempting to communicate, in case you are still confused.
First of all, you appeared to have confused
Criminal Organization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_organization
with
Extortion Racket
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion
Which lead me to make other examples of Criminal Organizations which you responded with confusion to. (drugs, etc)
Assuming you did mean "Kespa is an Extortion Racket", it would be retarded, because extortion rackets simply extort without providing any forced services in return, while Kespa does indeed provide some amount of service. The amount of service they provide is debatable, but completely irrelevant to the comments you made comparing them to an "criminal organization" (Extortion Racket)?
Man i can't believe I need to explain to you your own opinions. wtf.
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Well written, but too biased.
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On September 04 2010 12:07 tree.hugger wrote:
If a kid is potentially good enough to play this game for a living, he needs to know that the league he wants to play in will still be there down the road. Otherwise, it simply doesn’t make any sense to practice it.
Which means that if BW is killed off at ten years, it sets a terrible precedent for all of esports. BW was the game that defied the yearly/bi-yearly cycle of video games. Every year, BW reappeared on tv, and the players got better and better. Even today, we cannot be sure that players have hit the skill and mental ceiling for BW. Kids like Jaedong, and Flash, Action and BaBy played the game through their teens, and were able to catch up after many years to the top players. Eventually, Flash and Jaedong would age, and they would be replaced by other players. If this doesn’t happen, then esports has been proven to be a useless venture, and one that cannot last. Which kids will play Sc2 with the dream of playing among the best players, if they know the game they’ve invested so much time into will promptly be washed away by Warcraft 4, or Starcraft 3? Which sponsors will put down money to help a league that will be ancient history in a few short years?
This is a really important point. I feel like a lot of starcraft players aren't really sports fans, and therefore don't understand how important stability and history is in order for an e-sport to flourish.
Yes an E-Sport must be treated like a real sport, not like a game, imagine what would happen if the rules of soccer were changed completely every year, soccer would probably be dead.
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On September 04 2010 16:31 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
Your word against mine. YOU have no idea. You're not even Korean. I grew up here, I know how the politicians are, I know how these organizations work, and it must be a great feeling when you think you know what you're talking about after watching 'loose change' documentary for 10 minutes.
This place is a harsh place for people without power, buddy. People can lose their livelihood just for speaking against the dear LMB. You seriously have NO idea what you're talking about.
What the fuck are you talking about? All I'm saying is your analogy makes no fucking sense because you apparently used the general word "criminal organization" instead of "extortion racket". I'm not talking about korea at all. wtf. Seriously. Maybe I'm being harsh cuz your Korean and your english comprehension isn't that great, in which case I apologize. You said criminal organization, which includes the drug trade, so I thought you meant, you know, criminal organizations. Perhaps you meant "extortion racket". Show nested quote +What the fuck are you talking about? They take a cut, and the rest is used to organize and advertise esports.
do you even know how much MBC and OGN makes, and how much Kespa took? Do you?
You babble and babble but nothing comes out of it. Why?
A lot? 50% 80% So what? What the fuck are you exactly say? If you think thats unethical, ok, but we are not debating ethics you twat. You are bringing up entirely irrelevant points. Are you arguing that cut stymies the growth of BW tournaments?
I thought you said criminal organization, which includes the drug trade, so I thought you meant, you know, criminal organizations. Perhaps you meant "extortion racket", too.
Maybe I'm being harsh cuz your Korean and your english comprehension isn't that great, in which case I apologize.
You too speak English quite well for a mentally challenged person. At least I get to say English is my second language.
If you think thats unethical, ok, but we are not debating ethics you twat. You are bringing up I'm not debating ethics. I'm stating Kespa is worthless and there will be better organizations to take place and all the points made against it are wrong and uninformed. The end.
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im not gonna lie, i only skimmed the article as it is quite late. but if bw dies isn't their a chance that sc2 will be picked up quicker by esports? at first there wasnt much of a point to pick up sc2 as it is quite young, most pros have invested huge amounts of time in sc1, and the infrastructure is designed for sc1 (lan tourneys etc). if it becomes physically impossible to broadcast sc1 as an esport, but you can get sc2 for the same amount of work wouldnt you switch to sc2?..
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Do you guys know the story of Guild Wars? Guild Wars had a thriving pvp scene and decent player base for a good time. The game was very fun and tournaments were regularly held. The top teams were indeed Korean (War Machine and I forget the other one). Slightly below them were many other teams that were highly competitive but just couldn't beat the champions. Then came some huge blunder by Arena.net which caused the best Korean teams to pull out of Guild Wars. Shortly after the vacuum, the European teams (the next tier in terms of competitiveness) stopped playing as well. Now Guild Wars is pretty much barren.
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I thought you said criminal organization, which includes the drug trade, so I thought you meant, you know, criminal organizations. Perhaps you meant "extortion racket", too.
Yes, I did mean the criminal organization. So why the fuck were you so confused for the last ten posts?
At least I get to say English is my second language.
Same here bro, except I don't suck at it.
I'm not debating ethics. I'm stating Kespa is worthless and there will be better organizations to take place and all the points made against it are wrong and uninformed. The end.
By comparing them to Organized Crime which is a vital component of crime on a larger scale. Which I stated on my first post, and you responded with ten completely irrelevant non siquitars which failed to express a single thought.
What...The...Fuck.
I'm not sure the breadth of your understanding, but this is not a coherent argument
"Kespa is worthless as a company because its business practices has some resemblances with organized crime".
This is a coherent argument
"Kespa is unethical because its business practices has some resemblances with organized crime".
However, as you said, we are not talking about that.
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Ah, Wiki-stage. Where desperate uninformed subjects hastily finds some vague internet reference sources to silence the opponents.
Let's see what we have here.
"Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups"
So where's the confusion?
Assuming you did mean "Kespa is an Extortion Racket", it would be retarded, because extortion rackets simply extort without providing any forced services in return, while Kespa does indeed provide some amount of service. The amount of service they provide is debatable, but completely irrelevant to the comments you made comparing them to an "criminal organization" (Extortion Racket)?
Extortion also sometimes veils itself as 'protection fee'. Now you know.
Kespa also veils its 'services' as necessity and in return raked in 16m from OGN and 13m from MBC last year alone. OGN and MBC are small time channels barely making 15~20m profit per year.
Why so thick-headed? Having fun smelling Kespa's gorge?
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Same here bro, except I don't suck at it.
First of all, I'm not your 'bro', and secondly, you do. Thx.
I'm not sure the breadth of your understanding,
You know, I feel bad for you to go full Ad-hominem here but you're lack of intelligence just warrants it. You're not able to understand it because your brain can't comprehend what is sensible and correct.
"Kespa is worthless as a company because its business practices has some resemblances with organized crime".
This is a coherent argument
"Kespa is unethical because its business practices has some resemblances with organized crime".
This is where your lack of understanding in Korean culture and social mood really shows. They ARE organized like criminal organizations, and they ARE criminal organizations. They sold licensing rights to game they didn't own (illegally) for YEARS and they did it by forcing the networks to pay while holding the players as hostage.
What don't you understand here? Please don't go full retard, buddy.
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
