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On September 05 2010 09:56 awesomoecalypse wrote:This. If people seriously think SC2 has less inherent appeal as a spectator sport than Poker, I dunno what to say. What makes Poker work are high stakes and compelling personalities which create drama, and announcers/visual aids which help casual viewers follow the action. No reason both of those can't exist for SC2.
Yea but the difference is that poker has appeal to every gender and age bracket...you have poker players who are female 20 year olds or male 70 year olds and everything in between. SC2 only appeals to males under the age of 30. How many middle aged males or females of any age in North America even know what starcraft is? You can't have a succesful televised sport when you only appeal to such a small demographic
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On September 06 2010 03:54 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 09:56 awesomoecalypse wrote:If poker can make it... This. If people seriously think SC2 has less inherent appeal as a spectator sport than Poker, I dunno what to say. What makes Poker work are high stakes and compelling personalities which create drama, and announcers/visual aids which help casual viewers follow the action. No reason both of those can't exist for SC2. Yea but the difference is that poker has appeal to every gender and age bracket...you have poker players who are female 20 year olds or male 70 year olds and everything in between. SC2 only appeals to males under the age of 30. How many middle aged males or females of any age in North America even know what starcraft is? You can't have a succesful televised sport when you only appeal to such a small demographic
You're just making up a lot of bullshit here. Also just because something has a smaller demographic doesn't mean it cant suceed. Lets just say it was for males under 30 only, well thats still a ridiculous amount of people and a great demographic.
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On September 06 2010 03:58 Medzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:54 antelope591 wrote:On September 05 2010 09:56 awesomoecalypse wrote:If poker can make it... This. If people seriously think SC2 has less inherent appeal as a spectator sport than Poker, I dunno what to say. What makes Poker work are high stakes and compelling personalities which create drama, and announcers/visual aids which help casual viewers follow the action. No reason both of those can't exist for SC2. Yea but the difference is that poker has appeal to every gender and age bracket...you have poker players who are female 20 year olds or male 70 year olds and everything in between. SC2 only appeals to males under the age of 30. How many middle aged males or females of any age in North America even know what starcraft is? You can't have a succesful televised sport when you only appeal to such a small demographic You're just making up a lot of bullshit here. Also just because something has a smaller demographic doesn't mean it cant suceed. Lets just say it was for males under 30 only, well thats still a ridiculous amount of people and a great demographic.
Really? Refute my statements then. Not to mention that even if SC2's demographic is more than willing to watch most of them aren't willing or able to put any money into supporting it. Look at a football crowd and 90% of ticket buyers are middle-aged cause they're the ones who can afford it.
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On September 06 2010 03:58 Medzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:54 antelope591 wrote:On September 05 2010 09:56 awesomoecalypse wrote:If poker can make it... This. If people seriously think SC2 has less inherent appeal as a spectator sport than Poker, I dunno what to say. What makes Poker work are high stakes and compelling personalities which create drama, and announcers/visual aids which help casual viewers follow the action. No reason both of those can't exist for SC2. Yea but the difference is that poker has appeal to every gender and age bracket...you have poker players who are female 20 year olds or male 70 year olds and everything in between. SC2 only appeals to males under the age of 30. How many middle aged males or females of any age in North America even know what starcraft is? You can't have a succesful televised sport when you only appeal to such a small demographic You're just making up a lot of bullshit here. Also just because something has a smaller demographic doesn't mean it cant suceed. Lets just say it was for males under 30 only, well thats still a ridiculous amount of people and a great demographic.
The difference with poker is that it's cool, and it has history and cultural staying power. Plus, all it takes to play is cards, tokens, and 10 minutes to teach people.
It's apples and oranges. Poker had a much, much easier path to the mainstream than SC2 will have.
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On September 05 2010 16:51 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 11:33 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 05 2010 10:30 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:On September 05 2010 09:16 Alexstrasas wrote:On September 05 2010 08:18 rackdude wrote:On September 05 2010 07:48 Bhaalgorn wrote:
Looking at the big prize pools of the GSL tournament and Blizzards actual support of SC2 as an e-sport it is obvious they and their Korean partners are opting for the carrot strategy first. Lure progamers in with big prize pools, hoping their skill will generate enough viewers to eventually overtake the BW scene. Thus a smooth transition is possible and no one can say how Blizzard killed the BW scene, they would have merely replaced it.
No, the controversy is that they are NOT doing that kind of transition. Rather, they are saying "Nope, you cannot play your game anymore or have your tournaments. It's illegal." They are opting for the 1 base all in push. They should just be luring BW players with money while they allow their leagues to keep playing, but from the looks of it they aren't going to. They are going to use the law and IP rights to forcibly shut down BW. That's what's up. You are complelty missing the point, there is just no way that Blizzard would be negotiating with Kespa at this point. From a practical point of view, Kespa not allowing pros to play SC2 makes the "luring with tournament money" kinda obsolete, because a steady pay check is always better. As far as I can see Blizzard just want to make money and if that includes ripping down the pro-broodwar scene then so be it. They want more people on sc2 and more people buying cd's etc. Please do not make them sound virtuous for trying to rid the world of broodwar leagues. The money and revenue that broodwar is making is small peanuts to them and they've not shown much interest in it until it stops them from making a profit, because it turns out game 1 is superior to game 2. Edit: Ooops, I replied to the wrong post *sigh* Blizzard gains nothing by killing BW. Killing BW does not mean that SC2 is popular. Right now, korea has SC2 for FREE so people that will want to get it will get it, regardless of the status of BW. Also, that last remark just shows that you are ridiculously biased. I kinda wish TL would ban people when they have such an obvious bias such as that, as it brings nothing to the discussion and just wastes peoples time. What you are saying is that broodwar dying will not cause an influx of players to starcraft2. This makes no sense at all. If people are not playing the one RTS, they will be playing the other which means a lot of marketing value and promo for their product = $$$. In addition, it equals more cd-sales. I'm also talking worldwide, not just Korea. Anyway, if you want to make some constructive points about why I'm wrong, please do that. You can also continue to cry about you wanting me to get banned, without having posted any arguments that underline your case. Honestly, you're the one crying for people to get banned, but you failed to post one single reason, except for me being biased in your view. If you do not think big firms like Blizzard are very money fixated talk to some people who have played WoW or maybe you should just go and live in happy-land where big multinational corporations care nothing about money...... *sigh*
I obviously dont have any of these numbers, but we can get some rough guesses here. How many people actually still play BW? How many that still play BW havent already played SC2? Do you really think that these numbers are big enough that it would be an influx of people wanting to play SC2 if BW was suddenly no longer popular on the pro scene? I just cant see that the esports scene dying (if it does die) will have any effect at all on SC2 sales, especially since people in this thread state that a lot of people that WATCH BW dont actually play it.
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On September 05 2010 19:55 bias- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 22:13 Vokasak wrote:
Blizzard isn't killing anything. They're not out of line at all in expecting KeSPA to stop stealing their game. Take a look at how much KeSPA collects from MBC/OSL to pretty much sit on their asses and send refs to a few matches (And then fuck up decisions when they're needed. MSL power outage anyone). You're telling me they can't afford to pay some royalty fees to the company that rightfully owns the game? Get a grip. If BW dies it'll be at the hands of KeSPA's stubbornness. Look, after 10 years of having no problem with the free advertising and promotion of their game via eSports culture, all of a sudden it is a problem when the sequel comes out? Blizzard is killing it on purpose to emphasize SC2 and because it now realizes it wants to be the only one with control over how SC2 is broadcast & played, everywhere. Big companies can't do anything with the game, they're like puppets. It's for the money. Blizzard has no respect for the eSports in Korea or what it has done for their company. They ARE killing the culture and monopolizing the tournament scene. They're forcing every match to go through Battle.net for monetary purposes. You can't play overseas players. NaDa got disconnected from TLO in a showmatch to in part bridge the gap between SC1 and SC2 - no one seems to care? Where is the hellfire rage that.. the old TL.. would have thrown forth?
You obvisouly have no ideia what you are talking about.
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded.
2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA.
3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament.
4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.'
5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea
6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this.
7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online.
8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee.
9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games.
10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting.
11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard.
12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches.
13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business.
14. Blizzard got really mad.
15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft.
16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA.
17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball.
18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea.
19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime.
20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain.
21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason.
22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA.
23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard.
24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard)
25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV
26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA.
27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA.
28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2.
29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs.
30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League).
31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA.
32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2
33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany.
34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem.
35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
This is taken from an old thread about the Nada vs TLO issue.
This issue goes back atleast to 2007, so no Blizzard didnt allowed Kespa to do whatever for 10 years.
Would be nice if ppl informed themselves before going on fanboy rage spree
Once more, it doesnt matter if you like Kespa, BW or the scene in SK, there is just no fucken way that Blizzard is going to cooperate with Kespa at this point.
Again im not seeing how its Blizzards fault that Kespa = SCBW, also im not seeing any other organization turning up to try to keep SCBW alive.
If SCBW is really that big then surely it should be able to survive without Kespa.
Where is the hellfire rage that.. the old TL.. would have thrown forth?
Dunno maybe they are open minded and actualy like SC2?
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On September 05 2010 09:31 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 03:49 latan wrote:On September 04 2010 14:49 Saracen wrote:
Ok, sorry if this comes off as inflammatory because the first page or two of replies has really pissed me off.
To those of you jumping in and saying "Oh SC2 is a new game. BW is old, SC2 is new. BW is Korean, SC2 is global. BW is dying, SC2 has potential." You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You really don't. Every time you say "SC2 doesn't need Korea, it has the rest of the world! SC2 has achieved more greatness than BW ever has, just look at HD and Husky compared to nevake and Jon747!" you just make yourself look like an idiot. It's not about Youtube viewers. It's not about random tournaments like ESL/MLG. There's a difference between the little notion you have in your head of "eSports" and what eSports actually is and actually could be. eSports isn't just "oh, look it's SC2 in WCG and hey MLG is sponsoring SC2 as well, SC2 is doing great!" It's not about making a video game just another part of the video game industry, like SSB, WC3, DotA, WoW. It's about LONGEVITY. It's about building a fucking CULTURE. So you have your little SC2 "eSports" for what, two years? Three years? Then the next new awesome video game comes out and everyone jumps on the new bandwagon? What makes Starcraft stand out from all the others? What contributes to its longevity? No, it's not the fact that Blizzard made it. No, it's not the fact that it's a well-designed game. It's the fucking CULTURE. You CAN'T just isolate Korea and look at the rest of the world when it comes to eSports. Because Korea IS fucking eSports.
If you keep looking at SC2 in this way, despite all the hard work the members of the community put in, including HD, Husky, and Day9, SC2 will just end up as another "good" game that will quickly be replaced by the next "big" thing. Sports (without the e) is not about the culture, just to set an example. Please don't tell me you're seriously. It isn't purely about the culture, but if you're trying to deny that there is a huge meta-cultural background to any major sports and sporting events, you don't have any understanding of sports, E or not.
2 things
one: you're saying then that stacraft isn't any different from all that? because I was criticizing a post for putting starcraft above all similar things. not sure what your point is here matey.
two: this is true in anything that involves a big number of people. the argument still holds, it is not the meta cultural background that builds the sport, game, activity, or whatever, it is just a natural consequence of people being people and liking things.
actually let's make it 3 things.
three: lol @ "if you can't ... then you have no understanding of ...." i can't tell you how many times i've seen that type of thing at this forum, i'm sorry that isn't an argument, even if you had a point there, please don't say things like that, in the end all it means is that you're arrogant enough to think that YOU know all that is and the other don't.
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On September 06 2010 04:30 Alexstrasas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 19:55 bias- wrote:On September 04 2010 22:13 Vokasak wrote:
Blizzard isn't killing anything. They're not out of line at all in expecting KeSPA to stop stealing their game. Take a look at how much KeSPA collects from MBC/OSL to pretty much sit on their asses and send refs to a few matches (And then fuck up decisions when they're needed. MSL power outage anyone). You're telling me they can't afford to pay some royalty fees to the company that rightfully owns the game? Get a grip. If BW dies it'll be at the hands of KeSPA's stubbornness. Look, after 10 years of having no problem with the free advertising and promotion of their game via eSports culture, all of a sudden it is a problem when the sequel comes out? Blizzard is killing it on purpose to emphasize SC2 and because it now realizes it wants to be the only one with control over how SC2 is broadcast & played, everywhere. Big companies can't do anything with the game, they're like puppets. It's for the money. Blizzard has no respect for the eSports in Korea or what it has done for their company. They ARE killing the culture and monopolizing the tournament scene. They're forcing every match to go through Battle.net for monetary purposes. You can't play overseas players. NaDa got disconnected from TLO in a showmatch to in part bridge the gap between SC1 and SC2 - no one seems to care? Where is the hellfire rage that.. the old TL.. would have thrown forth? You obvisouly have no ideia what you are talking about. + Show Spoiler +1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded.
2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA.
3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament.
4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.'
5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea
6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this.
7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online.
8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee.
9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games.
10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting.
11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard.
12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches.
13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business.
14. Blizzard got really mad.
15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft.
16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA.
17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball.
18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea.
19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime.
20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain.
21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason.
22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA.
23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard.
24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard)
25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV
26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA.
27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA.
28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2.
29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs.
30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League).
31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA.
32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2
33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany.
34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem.
35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time. This is taken from an old thread about the Nada vs TLO issue. This issue goes back atleast to 2007, so no Blizzard didnt allowed Kespa to do whatever for 10 years. Would be nice if ppl informed themselves before going on fanboy rage spree Once more, it doesnt matter if you like Kespa, BW or the scene in SK, there is just no fucken way that Blizzard is going to cooperate with Kespa at this point. Again im not seeing how its Blizzards fault that Kespa = SCBW, also im not seeing any other organization turning up to try to keep SCBW alive. If SCBW is really that big then surely it should be able to survive without Kespa. Dunno maybe they are open minded and actualy like SC2?
If the facts are as you state them, I stand corrected.
I suppose I've always had separate problems with KeSPA (haven't we all...) but the overall BW fanbase/playerbase is what's being undermined here... I suppose at the hands of KeSPA? Even so, Blizzard really is not doing anyone any favors with B.net 2.0 or the retarded way multiplayer SC2 is lined up.
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EPT
