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On August 30 2010 11:26 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 10:24 Affluenza wrote:On August 30 2010 10:05 Karas wrote:
Protoss are not dominating zerg right now, the matchup seems fairly balanced. I dunno about that... ZvT QQ is basically allowing ZvP unbalance to go untalked about and unnoticed... 2 base colossus-stalker or 2 robo colossus is freaking strong and the only counter is Ultra-ling combo...and so many Zerg just get caught out by not seeing the robo bays... Also warp-gate all-ins can be very very difficult to hold off... Collossi are easily, easily thwarted by Corruptors. A handful of the things bring down Collossi before Stalkers have a hope in hell of protecting them. There's no way a Zerg can't have Corruptors on the field by the time a Protoss is pumping Collossi out. Most Zerg I play just assume Collossi and get a Spire for some Corruptors to go along with the Hydra ball, instead of putting all of their eggs in one basket and assume that their Hydras are uncounterable.
Getting Corruptors to counter Collossi is stupid and the most wasteful thing a Zerg can do.
Firstly because even if you happen to take down the Collossi...it doesn't guarantee you can hold off the ground battle and your stuck with Corruptors in the air not being used and twiddling their dreads...
It is always better to just go Ultras or micro some mutas to the back of the Protoss army to focus down the Collossi...
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WHAT R U TALKING ABOUT LEAVE THE ZEALOTS ALONE!!!! omg ...incredibly stupid patch...
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On August 30 2010 17:10 ch4ppi wrote:
@Snowfield..
What about reading patchnotes...or knowing the game.
Baneling has 30 HP
New Tankshot deals 35 dmg.
Do the math, you will experience surprising results...
Ye sure I will do the math for you because you semt to have failed at it. The point of siege tank against banelings is that they DO SPLASH DAMAGE. And splash damage does not do 35dmg everywhere in the radius of the attack.
Ofc Blizzard could have waited that Zerg players starts to micro their banelings and spread them effectively, but instead of that they nerfed to the ground one of the most epic unit of Starcraft.
The noobification of Starcraft II is at work since Beta.
And btw, I play exclusively protoss and random in Starcraft II, so don't call me a biased Terran k thx.
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On August 30 2010 20:55 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 17:10 ch4ppi wrote:
@Snowfield..
What about reading patchnotes...or knowing the game.
Baneling has 30 HP
New Tankshot deals 35 dmg.
Do the math, you will experience surprising results... Ye sure I will do the math for you because you semt to have failed at it. The point of siege tank against banelings is that they DO SPLASH DAMAGE. And splash damage does not do 35dmg everywhere in the radius of the attack. Ofc Blizzard could have waited that Zerg players starts to micro their banelings and spread them effectively, but instead of that they nerfed to the ground one of the most epic unit of Starcraft. The noobification of Starcraft II is at work since Beta. And btw, I play exclusively protoss and random in Starcraft II, so don't call me a biased Terran k thx.
What?
So the Zerg player has to do all the micro (spread and micro banelings) whilst the Terran player just has to think about tank placements prior to an engagement...and Blizzard has in turn change the damage output of these tanks to allow Zerg who micro to be able to deal damage...
And your implying Blizzard is making SC2 a noobification? Even though now baneling micro will be more effective?
I think you need to take another look at how you are thinking this through...any change that makes Tanks less important in SC2 is a good thing...
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On August 30 2010 21:07 Affluenza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 20:55 TeWy wrote:On August 30 2010 17:10 ch4ppi wrote:
@Snowfield..
What about reading patchnotes...or knowing the game.
Baneling has 30 HP
New Tankshot deals 35 dmg.
Do the math, you will experience surprising results... Ye sure I will do the math for you because you semt to have failed at it. The point of siege tank against banelings is that they DO SPLASH DAMAGE. And splash damage does not do 35dmg everywhere in the radius of the attack. Ofc Blizzard could have waited that Zerg players starts to micro their banelings and spread them effectively, but instead of that they nerfed to the ground one of the most epic unit of Starcraft. The noobification of Starcraft II is at work since Beta. And btw, I play exclusively protoss and random in Starcraft II, so don't call me a biased Terran k thx. What? So the Zerg player has to do all the micro (spread and micro banelings) whilst the Terran player just has to think about tank placements prior to an engagement...and Blizzard has in turn change the damage output of these tanks to allow Zerg who micro to be able to deal damage... And your implying Blizzard is making SC2 a noobification? Even though now baneling micro will be more effective? I think you need to take another look at how you are thinking this through...any change that makes Tanks less important in SC2 is a good thing...
I to am a little afraid that the Banelings will become somewhat to powerful.
But it's okey. Terran had it easier the first month of the game, maybe Zerg will have it a little easier the second month of the game.
I trust Blizzard with a l my heat and think that the game will be totally balanced in a year or maybe two.
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@Deckkie,
from the experience of SC1, its gonna take yrs to balance.
i think nerf to tank is overdone. there is currently no map in the pool where you can not flank T. sure you may not be able to assault their cliffed siege position, but that IS the point of the siege tank.
i think a more appropriate fix is to buff the damage back to 60 again but nerf the splash so that only the main target get 100%.
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On August 30 2010 20:50 Affluenza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 11:26 Bibdy wrote:On August 30 2010 10:24 Affluenza wrote:On August 30 2010 10:05 Karas wrote:
Protoss are not dominating zerg right now, the matchup seems fairly balanced. I dunno about that... ZvT QQ is basically allowing ZvP unbalance to go untalked about and unnoticed... 2 base colossus-stalker or 2 robo colossus is freaking strong and the only counter is Ultra-ling combo...and so many Zerg just get caught out by not seeing the robo bays... Also warp-gate all-ins can be very very difficult to hold off... Collossi are easily, easily thwarted by Corruptors. A handful of the things bring down Collossi before Stalkers have a hope in hell of protecting them. There's no way a Zerg can't have Corruptors on the field by the time a Protoss is pumping Collossi out. Most Zerg I play just assume Collossi and get a Spire for some Corruptors to go along with the Hydra ball, instead of putting all of their eggs in one basket and assume that their Hydras are uncounterable. Getting Corruptors to counter Collossi is stupid and the most wasteful thing a Zerg can do. Firstly because even if you happen to take down the Collossi...it doesn't guarantee you can hold off the ground battle and your stuck with Corruptors in the air not being used and twiddling their dreads... It is always better to just go Ultras or micro some mutas to the back of the Protoss army to focus down the Collossi...
No, corrupters are extremely good vs Colossus. Zerg ground army > Protoss ground army that has no colossus. You can also transition into Brood Lords later on.
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On August 30 2010 22:02 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 20:50 Affluenza wrote:On August 30 2010 11:26 Bibdy wrote:On August 30 2010 10:24 Affluenza wrote:On August 30 2010 10:05 Karas wrote:
Protoss are not dominating zerg right now, the matchup seems fairly balanced. I dunno about that... ZvT QQ is basically allowing ZvP unbalance to go untalked about and unnoticed... 2 base colossus-stalker or 2 robo colossus is freaking strong and the only counter is Ultra-ling combo...and so many Zerg just get caught out by not seeing the robo bays... Also warp-gate all-ins can be very very difficult to hold off... Collossi are easily, easily thwarted by Corruptors. A handful of the things bring down Collossi before Stalkers have a hope in hell of protecting them. There's no way a Zerg can't have Corruptors on the field by the time a Protoss is pumping Collossi out. Most Zerg I play just assume Collossi and get a Spire for some Corruptors to go along with the Hydra ball, instead of putting all of their eggs in one basket and assume that their Hydras are uncounterable. Getting Corruptors to counter Collossi is stupid and the most wasteful thing a Zerg can do. Firstly because even if you happen to take down the Collossi...it doesn't guarantee you can hold off the ground battle and your stuck with Corruptors in the air not being used and twiddling their dreads... It is always better to just go Ultras or micro some mutas to the back of the Protoss army to focus down the Collossi... No, corrupters are extremely good vs Colossus. Zerg ground army > Protoss ground army that has no colossus. You can also transition into Brood Lords later on.
I never said Corruptors were not good...
You missed the point...you should never have units unused...and having corruptors when there isn't much for them to deal with in this scenario we are talking about a 2 robo build by Protoss (yes you take out the Collossi and then?) it is a waste of minerals...
If your going Broodlords you don't go stocking up on Corruptors before you can make Broodlords...again it's a waste.
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On August 30 2010 22:00 dybydx wrote:
@Deckkie,
from the experience of SC1, its gonna take yrs to balance.
i think nerf to tank is overdone. there is currently no map in the pool where you can not flank T. sure you may not be able to assault their cliffed siege position, but that IS the point of the siege tank.
i think a more appropriate fix is to buff the damage back to 60 again but nerf the splash so that only the main target get 100%.
yeah maybe I was a little to eager to say that the balance will be there in a year or two.
I guess this game is really for the gamers yet to come.
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On August 30 2010 21:07 Affluenza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 20:55 TeWy wrote:On August 30 2010 17:10 ch4ppi wrote:
@Snowfield..
What about reading patchnotes...or knowing the game.
Baneling has 30 HP
New Tankshot deals 35 dmg.
Do the math, you will experience surprising results... Ye sure I will do the math for you because you semt to have failed at it. The point of siege tank against banelings is that they DO SPLASH DAMAGE. And splash damage does not do 35dmg everywhere in the radius of the attack. Ofc Blizzard could have waited that Zerg players starts to micro their banelings and spread them effectively, but instead of that they nerfed to the ground one of the most epic unit of Starcraft. The noobification of Starcraft II is at work since Beta. And btw, I play exclusively protoss and random in Starcraft II, so don't call me a biased Terran k thx. I think you need to take another look at how you are thinking this through...any change that makes Tanks less important in SC2 is a good thing...
absolutely not the case imo. maybe you enjoy watching MMM running around doing the same thing over and over (MM in BW was very nice to watch cause of the great micro battles,not the case in sc2).
also tanks are the defining unit of T. if anything they should be more important then in the current fotw gameplay. fights for terrain,crushing pushes etc are what is entertaining to watch and do. not 2 ranged armies trading shots till one of them crumbles.
not to mention that tanks even on super great maps for them(which currently almost evry single on is) are actually used less and less recently.
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On August 30 2010 22:10 Affluenza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 22:02 Shikyo wrote:On August 30 2010 20:50 Affluenza wrote:On August 30 2010 11:26 Bibdy wrote:On August 30 2010 10:24 Affluenza wrote:On August 30 2010 10:05 Karas wrote:
Protoss are not dominating zerg right now, the matchup seems fairly balanced. I dunno about that... ZvT QQ is basically allowing ZvP unbalance to go untalked about and unnoticed... 2 base colossus-stalker or 2 robo colossus is freaking strong and the only counter is Ultra-ling combo...and so many Zerg just get caught out by not seeing the robo bays... Also warp-gate all-ins can be very very difficult to hold off... Collossi are easily, easily thwarted by Corruptors. A handful of the things bring down Collossi before Stalkers have a hope in hell of protecting them. There's no way a Zerg can't have Corruptors on the field by the time a Protoss is pumping Collossi out. Most Zerg I play just assume Collossi and get a Spire for some Corruptors to go along with the Hydra ball, instead of putting all of their eggs in one basket and assume that their Hydras are uncounterable. Getting Corruptors to counter Collossi is stupid and the most wasteful thing a Zerg can do. Firstly because even if you happen to take down the Collossi...it doesn't guarantee you can hold off the ground battle and your stuck with Corruptors in the air not being used and twiddling their dreads... It is always better to just go Ultras or micro some mutas to the back of the Protoss army to focus down the Collossi... No, corrupters are extremely good vs Colossus. Zerg ground army > Protoss ground army that has no colossus. You can also transition into Brood Lords later on. I never said Corruptors were not good... You missed the point...you should never have units unused...and having corruptors when there isn't much for them to deal with in this scenario we are talking about a 2 robo build by Protoss (yes you take out the Collossi and then?) it is a waste of minerals... If your going Broodlords you don't go stocking up on Corruptors before you can make Broodlords...again it's a waste.
A zerg can easily pump out a few corrupters when he needs them. He just has to hold off the P for a few seconds. Those are common tactics that were used in sc1, too, to hold of any timing attack. There was no game in recent history where I would say P is stronger than z. What I don't like about the patch would be the damage decrease on BC. I mean come on, it takes like for ever to get them and zerg still have parasite and p has blink and feedback to beat them. The zealot patch makes me worry but we will see how that turns out.
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On August 30 2010 22:02 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 20:50 Affluenza wrote:On August 30 2010 11:26 Bibdy wrote:On August 30 2010 10:24 Affluenza wrote:On August 30 2010 10:05 Karas wrote:
Protoss are not dominating zerg right now, the matchup seems fairly balanced. I dunno about that... ZvT QQ is basically allowing ZvP unbalance to go untalked about and unnoticed... 2 base colossus-stalker or 2 robo colossus is freaking strong and the only counter is Ultra-ling combo...and so many Zerg just get caught out by not seeing the robo bays... Also warp-gate all-ins can be very very difficult to hold off... Collossi are easily, easily thwarted by Corruptors. A handful of the things bring down Collossi before Stalkers have a hope in hell of protecting them. There's no way a Zerg can't have Corruptors on the field by the time a Protoss is pumping Collossi out. Most Zerg I play just assume Collossi and get a Spire for some Corruptors to go along with the Hydra ball, instead of putting all of their eggs in one basket and assume that their Hydras are uncounterable. Getting Corruptors to counter Collossi is stupid and the most wasteful thing a Zerg can do. Firstly because even if you happen to take down the Collossi...it doesn't guarantee you can hold off the ground battle and your stuck with Corruptors in the air not being used and twiddling their dreads... It is always better to just go Ultras or micro some mutas to the back of the Protoss army to focus down the Collossi... No, corrupters are extremely good vs Colossus. Zerg ground army > Protoss ground army that has no colossus. You can also transition into Brood Lords later on.
Yah I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this statement.
Of course Corrupters are extremely good against the colossus, but you wouldn't just get a cost vs. cost number of corrupter vs. colossi... you're going to probably end up sinking additional resources into the corrupters.
This is going to significantly decrease the value of your ground army. Every corrupter is 2 roaches. (well it's really closer to a hydra and a roach, but there's more gas involved than just 2 roaches)
This means once you do take out the colossi you're going to still need to fight a ground army that can have anything: zealots, sentry, dt, archons, high templar, stalker, immortal. All depends on when this is happening. Corrupters lose their value as units since the Toss can just say "welp now I'll just make stalkers or immortals instead of colossi since they won't be useful.
I was streaming the other day and I used a hydra/muta/roach/ling combo that annihilated the enemy. Muta's provide more options as you can keep your opponent in his base while harassing AND add them to your main forces when the time comes. Have you tried harassing a mineral line or pylons with corrupters? Yah doesn't work so well.
Chances are you will never get the greater spire anyway so the corrupters won't fulfill their late-game niche as the brood lord requirement. As said above if you're at this stage of the game you may as well just get ultralisks.
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Hm I don't really think this patch will change much.We have no patch notes but I still feel this will be minor adjustments to throw a bone here and there and see how that goes.I know the tank change isn't "minor" but still the real problem in sc2 is MMMG ball.I've just seen the last commentary of izz vs miowerra of HD and I'm baffled on how the discrepancy of play is evident: protoss has to make stalkers/zeal/sentries/colossi/storm against...well...for half the game only marauders with some leftover medivacs and pair of lonely ghost.And the terran had the advantage probably.
I feel the real issues in the game aren't even considered by blizzard at the moment, it's...just wrong for me to see how T P and Z have lost their identity and are way off each other.Terrans just seem to steamroll around, zergs are kinda absent if we exclude the top 3 best zergs in the world since at any other level they aren't working.Protoss are the one with the best deal but sometimes they still feel quite off balance.
I'd love to see sc2 more like BW with heavy power in each race in its way that all balances off in the gameplay.I know I'm bad so I shouldn't be saying anything, but still the game feels empty for me, and this patch will make the game keep being boring.
I kinda liked the idea of having "dumb" design decisions imposed on the game, the tank overkill might seem bad since it was mostly an IA fault in bw, but damn, that worked so well, and it didn't require to tweak too much the numbers of the tank.Also the other changes...the cattlebruiser now is really a marine on steroids, it has lost it's "awesome" factor....
If we have to really consider the sc2 design I don't even feel the "terrible terrible damage" factor, that could have worked somehow but still, I can't see that anyway.
Last but not least my personal ramblings on balance:
I still don't see how blizzard intends to keep going on with EMP on a cloaking unit in a damn huge ass bio ball without a research.But that's my low-score whine.I wish they left that on the starport tech, maybe on the raven, and left it draining all the shilds with a missile projectile, so we could atleast TRY to dodge that.Also no zerg variety fixed that saddens me a lot.Zerg feels like having 2 viable units and some random units thrown there.
And god, get that dark shrine out of the game....even if that means to give back ovies detection, it's so useless of a building, it's even HUGE AND TALL if you happen to get a glimpse all related to DT's is dead,unless you want cheaper gas archons.
Quite uninteresting patch tbh.I would have liked to see a bit more changes, they should have tried more things in beta but well...waiting for an expansion to try things feels a bit long.I'd like to see more big patches to fix the game.
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On August 30 2010 22:34 luckybeni2 wrote:
What I don't like about the patch would be the damage decrease on BC. I mean come on, it takes like for ever to get them and zerg still have parasite and p has blink and feedback to beat them. The zealot patch makes me worry but we will see how that turns out.
Neural parasite last like 12 seconds...
See the IdrA vs TLO match in the King of the Beta...where IdrA was Neural Parasiting the BC for nothing.
On August 30 2010 22:22 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
absolutely not the case imo. maybe you enjoy watching MMM running around doing the same thing over and over (MM in BW was very nice to watch cause of the great micro battles,not the case in sc2).
also tanks are the defining unit of T. if anything they should be more important then in the current fotw gameplay. fights for terrain,crushing pushes etc are what is entertaining to watch and do. not 2 ranged armies trading shots till one of them crumbles.
not to mention that tanks even on super great maps for them(which currently almost evry single on is) are actually used less and less recently.
I personally think Terran in general use tank play too much which leads to very boring games...
TvT for example literally just becomes a game of trying to get your Marauders to snipe tanks. It also makes TvT literally a massive air battle Vikings vs Vikings... It's depressing.
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To me those changes seem reasonable.
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Just for all the idiots saying that they are catering to silver bronze league or bad player feedback basically, they've stated before that (I believe it was David Kim) that they look at Diamond and Platinum league feedback and that when they test out the concerns they specifically have Blizzard employees that play at the Diamond level for these test.
So basically, shut up.
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On August 30 2010 23:15 LightKesta wrote:
Just for all the idiots saying that they are catering to silver bronze league or bad player feedback basically, they've stated before that (I believe it was David Kim) that they look at Diamond and Platinum league feedback and that when they test out the concerns they specifically have Blizzard employees that play at the Diamond level for these test.
So basically, shut up.
That's half the problem. Most of diamond league is pretty terrible.
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On August 31 2010 00:06 Sentient wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 23:15 LightKesta wrote:
Just for all the idiots saying that they are catering to silver bronze league or bad player feedback basically, they've stated before that (I believe it was David Kim) that they look at Diamond and Platinum league feedback and that when they test out the concerns they specifically have Blizzard employees that play at the Diamond level for these test.
So basically, shut up. That's half the problem. Most of diamond league is pretty terrible.
Until Jaedong or a Flash comes onto the SC2 scene everyone is terrible!
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im a bit concerned about the zealot change vs T, marauders rape zeals and stalkers early game, so 2 marauds and a marine is gonna be very scary 4 P at the start of a game i imagine, especially after conc shells...
dunno bout the reasoning either, from my experience a 2gate is defendable with bunkers or spine crawlers pretty handily.
liking the tank change though, might see some bulldog play now in pvt like in bw 
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It is not only about early pushes and 2GateRushes. Zealots are in fact an incredible good mineral sink in addition to their usefullness during the whole game (at least for me they are the backbone of my army every game).
Some numbers to show this (supply-costs included):
Zergling: 156 Minerals/min (consumes 62.5% of regular Hatch-Larva and 25% with nonstop larva injection, with constant 1by1 production)
Marine: 150 Minerals/min
Hellion: 249 Minerals/min
Warpgate-Zealot: 326 Minerals/min (267 Minerals/min after nerf)
Warpgate-Zealot with CB: 576 Minerals/min (!)
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EPT
