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On August 28 2010 02:32 SichuanPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:28 MoreFasho wrote:On August 28 2010 02:10 koppik wrote:
Pretty good changes, except for Protoss. The race needs a buff, if zealots are being nerfed.
Oh, but I really don't understand the battlecruiser nerf. They do a lot of damage, sure, but they're just so easily kited by units that it doesn't matter. BCs are actually ridiculously strong supported by vikings lategame against zerg, hydras melt to them, corruptors are slightly more cost effective against them, but once the BCs die, they are hard to use except for broodlords, but that basically means that the zerg player is overly committed to this tech against BCs which can actually come out pretty quickly. That being said, this is a pretty substantial nerf. A BC/Viking army of about 150 population will completely and totally decimate any number of corrupters and hydras from a Zerg - especially hydras - the nerf is very much needed. Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:31 Aberu wrote:On August 28 2010 02:25 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On August 28 2010 02:21 Plexa wrote:On August 28 2010 02:12 TMTurtle wrote:
I don't like the zealot change vs 6pool. Yes seriously. 7 pool is going to be x10 more broken now than it was before. It was already hard as all hell to stop on Steppes without 10gating, now 10gate will be mandatory to be safe from lings. Hell, even then I don't know if you'll be able to get the zeal on time. I'm 99% sure you cannot get a Zealot on time on a map like Steppes now even with a 10 gate. Anyone else still think DO will still suck beyond belief? You actually can't get it it out against an 8 pool. One of the owners of Green Forest Cafe and I were watching him test it, the timing of the 10 gate was perfect, and his 8 pool was perfect, the lings would get in side about 3 seconds before the zealot is chrono boosted out. Forget about 10 pool, its gonna be 6/7 pool cheese rushes on every 2 player map that has a Z v P until Blizz realizes how bad the Zealot change was. I mean fuck they buffed gates and zealots in the beta patch for this very reason, Zerg was cheesing P, so now a couple months after retail they decided that's not a problem anymore for P? Just plain weird.
Well he was trying to show me how he keeps the pressure on, transitions into a mid game pressure, and then a late game as well. That's what we were talkinga bout, and my initial idra-bias told me that anything but 13-14 pool isn't economic. But it was. He could get into a terran wall in sometimes, or at least harass the front of it, and could always get in protoss. And it works awesome in ZvZ. I didn't see him lose a single diamond match in ZvZ using 8 pool the way he did. I want to see him use it on higher level players. He was telling me there are a wave of koreans that are doing it now, and it's working great on that server.
Also mutas supported by corruptors cost for cost are better against BC's than the composition you talked about.
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The battlecruiser thing makes me rage hard.
Though to be fair they did double a banshee's ground DPS and can also attack air(half assed, but still possible) and have 550 hp.
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Btw: nerfing zealot time and the response is to nerf reaper build time? Who uses zealots to counter reapers? Now I'm just going to do mass marauder and autowin. I won't have fun doing it though. 
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lol...
Desert Oasis should just be removed. Hell most tournament just have it on OFF and most top ladder players have it on OFF as well. DO = dead... remove instead of tweek.
Protoss nerf = huh? well I don't know how fast zealots are working in PvT or PvP but... I do know that in PvZ it wasn't a problem. Those zealots aren't comming that fast and banelings just wtf own them anyways.
Terran nerfs = humm, altho I will take any terran nerfs available... I doupt a mear 5sec on reapers build time will change anything. Also tank damage wasnt the problem for me it's more thors "in general". So... like I said... any terran nerfs are welcome but I doupt they've changed the right thing.
Zerg nerf = Ultralisk were already pretty bad. Hell if they are going to nerf their damage they should do something to how you can control them (aka move over lings) or buff their HPs or make them smaller I don't know... just that I really and sincerly doupt ultralisks nerf was necessary.
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On August 28 2010 02:36 Aquafresh wrote:
I would like to see Warp Prism's given 1 base armor, and the tank upgrade bonus switched from +3 +2 to +2+3, then I would be happy. Basically I just really want to be able to zealot bomb again.
why? i doubt youll see many tanks anymore in tvp anyways. people will rather get ghosts instead.
also chargelots if not clumped up stupidly already do pretty well vs tanks and will be even better after that nerf.
sad that no other mapchanges were anounced.. goes that had to be expected.
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I like the Terran nerfs, but I'm concerned by the lack of anything to address the strength of the bioball, notably the strength of rauder stim+conc kiting. I don't really agree with the warpgate nerf, since warpgate units are pretty weak in a lot of scenarios. The problem with the zealot nerf is that the only matchup that really had trouble with proxy gates was pvp if they weren't scouted in time. This doesn't really help. I guess zergs who did hatch first were screwed, but them's the breaks when you do risky builds.
Don't mind the ultra nerf. I don't really think it'll amount to anything.
BC nerf was needed. The only way you could deal with them as P was huge masses of VRs and some HTs and even then once they got into a big enough number it's almost impossible to stop them. Yamato with auto-select is kind of dumb =/.
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On August 28 2010 02:39 klauz619 wrote:
The battlecruiser thing makes me rage hard.
Though to be fair they did double a banshee's ground DPS and can also attack air(half assed, but still possible) and have 550 hp.
and cost 2000x more, and are waaay slower.
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I am dissapointed by the zealot nerf because zealots are so critical to early game matchups, on both defense and offense. I would have perfered a 10 second gateway nerf or something like that instaed to counter 2gate proxy.
BC nerf seems uncessary as BC's ARE very good agaisnst ground but they were never good enough that you could rush them. Yes a fleet of BC's can be hard to deal with but I think a fleet of broodlords or carriers is equally difficult to deal with on the ground.
Tank nerf will make TvP possibly abit more interesting since tanks do gib zealots very quickly right now - I'm willing to accep the incerased zealot build time in exchange for the tank nerf to them.. I'm willing to accept the tank change in TvZ because Z ground just dies outright to tanks and it's forcing muta play every time. The Ultra nerf, I feel, was to compensate for the tank nerf because ultras were really dominating terran late game if the terran didn't have a commanding advantage already.
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Indeed, the zealot nerf makes P more susceptible to early pool builds, but the warpin increase will affect the entire game, rather than the first 5 minutes...
We also want to address the problem of protoss being able to dump minerals a bit too quickly with the combination of warpgates and Chrono Boost.
This is really what worries me.. Naturally the amazingly high players will be able to multitask enough to make the most of every warpin timing. I'm only low-diamond and find myself up against a superior force many times after a battle, because if i want to make the most of my warpin I'll have to look away from the battle to warpin, whereas T can just queue units without having to look at his base once.. with Z the situation is different again because of larva inject, which is also multitask intensive..
Guess I'll just have to improve my multitask a lot and get really fast with my warpins.. Still target-firing marauders/tanks with immortals will win your battle... Rough times in protoss camp indeed...
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Everyone know this was coming...
Another thing I'd like to mention is now that siege tanks do 35 + 15 to armored, while zerglings have 35 hp. It seems now getting a +1 Carapace upgrade is now extremely important, making tanks 2 hit zerglings. Zergs, i think, now has an opportunity to timing attack the terran, with +1 Carapace upgrade, while the terran is still researching +1 Attack for vehicles.
Expect to see terrans to rush to armory to get that +1 Vehicles upgrade in all games if they decide to go mech.
BTW, when is this patch going to be released?
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On August 28 2010 02:38 aLt)nirvana wrote:
i like the terran changes but PVT early game is still severely broken
they may nerf warp gates abit but nerfing zealot build time is crazy
any proxying can be defended by a player thru earlier scouting, they shouldnt take the strategy and metagame out just because some players scout late, nor should they nerf zealot build time because of it. just doesnt make sense.
Double gate proxy is a quite a problem for majority of mid diamond - bronze zergs.
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Pretty pleased with this, but would have liked some more Zerg buffs. But i think it deals well in helping Zerg fend off early game aggression, hopefully it will make those 2 gate zealot rushes a little less frustrating.
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On August 28 2010 02:42 Karthane wrote:
Pretty pleased with this, but would have liked some more Zerg buffs. But i think it deals well in helping Zerg fend off early game aggression, hopefully it will make those 2 gate zealot rushes a little less frustrating.
these are zerg buffs. Hydras are gonna be much stronger in zvt. Also your going to beable to deal with 2gate openings much better now.
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Wow, the change to tanks really makes banelings so much better against the Tank, Marine combo.
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I'd like to see new maps. Perhaps having a vote or looking at the data of which maps players vote NO. Having a stagnant map pool leads to a stale game eg: wc3
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The zealot nerf is the most stupid thing ever
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I 10 Gate every pvz as protoss, every game and i can get 1 zealot out about a second before a determined 6 pool gets to my base before zerglings get there. A 5 seconds increase is bullshit, beyond that it is stopping one cheese in supreme favour of another. So theres 2 options, probe block or pylon block now (pylon in the hex, cancel when zealot is out)
Sucks man
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Corinthos
Canada1842 Posts
Soon marauder, marine and ghost will be the standard build for all Terran matchups! Even though there are good changes here, the problem is that they address a specific matchup. This effects the balance of other matchups.
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The zealot time change allows for more viability for using stalkers against a zealot rush. Sure won't change the fact that both players can still just do zealot vs. zealot just as easily.
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On August 28 2010 02:42 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:42 Karthane wrote:
Pretty pleased with this, but would have liked some more Zerg buffs. But i think it deals well in helping Zerg fend off early game aggression, hopefully it will make those 2 gate zealot rushes a little less frustrating. these are zerg buffs.
I suppose, it just proves that Zerg is the weakest race. Buffing Zerg requires weakening the other races.
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EPT
