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On December 08 2011 10:32 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:47 4Servy wrote:
Artosis sounds like a diamond player when it comes to terran no offense meant but all that ''mech is the way crap'' is starting to get old. Most these terrans in gomtv are ex BW pros some even from the A team. They would for sure know how to play mech since it was that important in BW in tvt and tvp but the fact that they dont and go for a all in 80% of the time or some timing break on the toss 3th tells you alteast something.
Today I had some time off from uni in the morning and watched boxer vs marineking and even though undeniably boxer made alot of mistakes in game 3 it was still so obvious that even in TvT mech is just not as good. Its completly inmobile and tanks just dont lock positions down hard enough like they did in BW. Basicly mkp just amoved (hardly even maxed) up a ramp with 3/3 bio into 8+ siege tanks destroyed them all and then took out a base and everything snowballed out of ctrl.
Also with the removal of the spider mines and high damage tanks its just so hard to lock positions down or delay enemy counter attacks enough with mech. This makes thats its nigh impossible to push forward in tvt and tvp and at best you are going to get a base race situation. In tvz it kinda works because tanks on the cliff or near a PF and helion/thor reinforcements are good vs like low hp zerg units that attempt a counter attack. BoxeR would have never ever ever lost that game if he spent some of his excess minerals on PFs or if he just fucking killed marineking after he suicided his entire army. Mech past 2 bases vs protoss is the biggest joke of an idea ever tho. 200 supply mech just doesnt do shit to protoss and you are completely unable to spread your army because anytime you do, 2 immortals will show up and eat 6 tanks without losing their shield. I dont even think mech is gonna be good vs protoss in the expansion, based purely on what we have seen so far. Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 09:47 Big J wrote:On December 08 2011 09:16 Quotidian wrote:
argh
I've been playing a lot of tvp customs today, trying to get mech to work, and I've lost every one where the protoss didn't flat out die to the early harass (and I lost some where the protoss was essentially "dead" as well) and it got to a mid/lategame scenario. Mech is worthless.
Seeing relatively small army of chargelots, archons, stalkers and HTs a-move and then storm to death an army with 5-6 siege tanks and 3 or so banshees camped behind two bunkers with marines walled off with depots and an engie bay will seriously fuck with your head. You basically need 20 or so tanks to even trade armies, and in all likelihood you'll be dead before that anyway.
Now I feel frustrated and depressed and I blame Artosis -.- I've been playing around with Mech a lot in TvP customs (I'm a masters zerg player) and I found it extremly viable on even level (I'd say my terran is around diamond) I'm just expanding and sieging and cautiously trying to have as much mapcontrol with hellions as possible, not even trying to do too much damage and at some point multipronged hellion harass always seem to put enough pressure on the protoss so that he charges into my tanklines and it often comes down to me just screwing up positioning and hellion play when I lose imo... I'm completly on this with Artosis and Day9: Mech has never been tried in TvP in high level play, but seeing Goody playing Mech vs Protoss and seeing this awesome TvP "Pure Air" Guide (masterlevel) in the strategy section, it just looks to me as if there is a lot of potential out there for it. Noone is really saying that Mech is stronger than MMMVG or even viable in a figuered out metagame, but for me a lot of the Antimech arguments are too "practical" (Immortals and Chargelots are so good against Mech). It sounds a little bit like the times when zergs didn't build zerglings against Protoss after 8min, because they would just suck against FFs, Colossi, Storms and whatever Protoss was throwing at us in 2base vs 2base games and you couldn't afford to "waste" larva on units that couldn't help in the 1A-battle deathball vs roach+something. I feel like a big Tankline is always strategically better than a fragile, mobile force running all over the place (in the lategame), because you can create those supersafe areas, which is the most scary thing in the world for me as an opponent. (btw, if you recall over an unpassable area like water the fucking units will show up on land, if you are close enough - had that happen when I had a perfect turret ring setup and god damn HerO recalled over the water and everything ended up inside my main)
huh. Never thought of that.... I have GOT to try this now.
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On December 08 2011 07:24 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:01 Soulrivers wrote:
Just a bit curious, IdrA said on a NASL interview with Hot_bid that he was single now, yet I think it was his GF (kathy?) that was in incontrol's cam on the last sotg, apparently living in the EG-house... Anyone wanna clarify this? I can clarify that IdrA is married to Kathy. It's a secret marriage that must now be discussed: Kathy was originally a man but the surgery was such a success that she was renamed to "Eva." Eva was originally married to the surgeon that performed the operation but the marriage became loveless as the surgeon had a tough time actually maintaining his attraction to "Eva" due to the fact that she was in fact a he. Eva eventually moved on but due to the fact that her vaginal operation wasn't fully complete her vaginal canal was shallow and thus clearly not that of a normal woman. Knowing this she preferred to be with younger men or men who don't have as much sexual experience and could thus never really understand something was wrong. That is where Greg comes in.. since then they have had a physical relationship that has made everyone around Eva and greg uncomfortable due to the intensity of their relationship but also because Eva behaved fairly predatorial. Fast forward to NOW where greg has fled the country to korea under the guise of "training" but in reality he just can't take the truth. Demuslim came hope after learning about Eva's true identity and he outted her in a dramatic clash last night that left machine physically impaired. Now Axslav is afraid to come out of his room Eva renamed her/himself "Kathy" and is stalking the halls of the EG lair. I write this so you may all know what happened. Pray for me.
Stay strong. We're here for you guys!
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40k viewers jeff does the truffle shuffle
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On December 08 2011 07:24 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:01 Soulrivers wrote:
Just a bit curious, IdrA said on a NASL interview with Hot_bid that he was single now, yet I think it was his GF (kathy?) that was in incontrol's cam on the last sotg, apparently living in the EG-house... Anyone wanna clarify this? I can clarify that IdrA is married to Kathy. It's a secret marriage that must now be discussed: Kathy was originally a man but the surgery was such a success that she was renamed to "Eva." Eva was originally married to the surgeon that performed the operation but the marriage became loveless as the surgeon had a tough time actually maintaining his attraction to "Eva" due to the fact that she was in fact a he. Eva eventually moved on but due to the fact that her vaginal operation wasn't fully complete her vaginal canal was shallow and thus clearly not that of a normal woman. Knowing this she preferred to be with younger men or men who don't have as much sexual experience and could thus never really understand something was wrong. That is where Greg comes in.. since then they have had a physical relationship that has made everyone around Eva and greg uncomfortable due to the intensity of their relationship but also because Eva behaved fairly predatorial. Fast forward to NOW where greg has fled the country to korea under the guise of "training" but in reality he just can't take the truth. Demuslim came hope after learning about Eva's true identity and he outted her in a dramatic clash last night that left machine physically impaired. Now Axslav is afraid to come out of his room Eva renamed her/himself "Kathy" and is stalking the halls of the EG lair. I write this so you may all know what happened. Pray for me.
He's lying.. I could tell for sure when he said (or at least heavily implied) that Idra, a world class Zerg master, didn't have much sexual experience. YA right dude!
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I figured out what you guys should do for 40k.
HAVE MLG FLY THE WHOLE CAST TO KOREA AND DO A SOTG WITH BOXER LIVE FROM THE SLAYERS HOUSE.
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Man day9 sounded like a total idiot when they were talking about the times.
Tyler talks for about a minute how the time of the NASL finals was bad and possibly the worst time slot they could have picked and day9 just says "So what's your criticism? " Maybe try listening sean. "What time was the finals?" You casted it. "What time does MLG have their finals?" You casted that too.
"I don't understand how that's necessarily the worst thing in the world" What, do you want Tyler to just repeat himself? Because it limited NASLs viewers by thousands.
"7PM pacific sounds like a normal time" THAT ISN'T THE ONLY TIME ZONE IN THE WORLD ARGHHHH.
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You know what the irony of this thread right now is? It is filled with diamond and master players who are saying that Artosis is an idiot, how can he even talk about mech in TvP when he himself is not a pro? Then said diamond and master player proceeds to explain why mech is not viable and randomly lists a lot of vague or irrelevant statements. So Artosis not being a pro has no saying on the matter but random 200 posts rank 1 master league guy has the credentials to declare that all work has been done, mech is not viable in any shape or form?
What has happened to this community when the concept of having a discussion over HOW you could theoretically play mech instantly has to get turned into a two sides fighting over whether or not it is impossible or not just for the sake of winning the argument? Who the fuck cares about who is right? What is the glory you achieve by winning the argument now and declaring mech nonviable before the discussion is even had? Am I the only one who finds thinking about these strategies and how they could work interesting in itself? Regardless of whether or not it turns into something useful in the end?
This is the difference between Day9 and Incontrol on state of the game and it frustrates the hell out of me. I am also saying this without being any kind of a Day9 fanboy. But Day9 actually just started up a discussion with an open ended question saying it would be interesting to see some new ideas as to how you could mech in TvP, because I think there might be something there. He never said mech is the best build, or strong or even viable at all. Hell not even Artosis actually said flat out that he is convinced that mech is the way to go in TvP. It appears that way because Incontrol instantly turned from a discussion into a debate and by taking such a strong position himself it puts what Day9 and Artosis said out of proportions and perspective. I much rather have discussions than debates on state of the game. I don't give a crap about how many pro's declare that mech is nonviable I still would like to hear Artosis and Day9 use their combined theoretical brilliance on the matter and just get their thoughts. Why does it have to be instantly trolled into a high school debate because incontrol gets frustrated and emotional when he does not win an argument that he created out of nothing?
And I also say this as someone who loves Incontrol to death. I just don't think he quite realizes that he gets really competitive whenever there is a discussion brewing...
edit: And furthermore this idea that the validity of your arguments can just be quantified based on your success with the game is nonsensical. To make the argument that all of Day9 and Artosises insight into the game is automatically irrelevant because they don't have the tournament success to back it up is a very skewed way of thinking about understanding of the game. So because they don't "play" starcraft 2 incontrol's arguments are by default better and argument is over. How far are we going to take that notion of success = credentials to have a say? Clearly the next time there is any kind of disagreement between incontrol and idra on sotg, IdrA wins by default. Having stronger tournament results clearly means his arguments are automatically worth more and the argument is over. We could in fact just skip over all kinds of discussion and just ask MvP every single question relating to Starcraft and write it down as law, these answers would be the correct ones until someone else wins more gsls. (If I recall, MvP said that Terran was the weakest race as well. Since we can't really argue with that due to his status, I guess we have a lot of new stuff to adapt to in game. I wonder when the patch will arrive).
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Going to have to agree with InControl's thoughts on mech. Saying TvT mech not being used when it's "clearly the best" (very arguable on a lot of maps, sadly) shows that pros don't use the best strategies doesn't really work - mech was used by every top Terran for a couple months (aside from MarineKing and Polt) when people thought it was the best way to play TvT. It only fell out of style again when people felt it wasn't as good. Now, it's just one style amongst many to utilise. The point is, a lot of people use it.
If mech TvP were comparable, it would at least see some use from someone who is actually good, as mech TvT has for around a year. As is, we've seen Jinro beat MC with it a year or so ago (and he's since argued vehemently that mech sucks TvP so I don't think it can be argued he figured anything special out that's relevant today) and we saw MC play against. . .uh. . .I forget the name, but someone in the GSL and MC crushed him despite playing it fairly badly. I honestly think that's it in terms of the highest level of play.
I'm simply not good enough at the game to argue one way or the other with conviction, but from my own theorycraft perspective, I simply do not know how anyone can think mech is remotely good TvP, and the fact that no one does it is evidence of this, not the reverse.
Fun SotG all round. I shall have to remember to purchase some alcohol for the drinking game next week. Or I may make some vodka Gummi bears.
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From experience most of my tvp losses are when my brain shut down and I decided to go mech against protoss. Even though I knew from countless of games that going full on mech beyond midgame is a throwing a game vs protoss. I don't see groundmech ever being viable against any half-competent macro oriented toss ~~
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On December 08 2011 14:55 VanGarde wrote:
You know what the irony of this thread right now is? It is filled with diamond and master players who are saying that Artosis is an idiot, how can he even talk about mech in TvP when he himself is not a pro? Then said diamond and master player proceeds to explain why mech is not viable and randomly lists a lot of vague or irrelevant statements. So Artosis not being a pro has no saying on the matter but random 200 posts rank 1 master league guy has the credentials to declare that all work has been done, mech is not viable in any shape or form?
What has happened to this community when the concept of having a discussion over HOW you could theoretically play mech instantly has to get turned into a two sides fighting over whether or not it is impossible or not just for the sake of winning the argument? Who the fuck cares about who is right? What is the glory you achieve by winning the argument now and declaring mech nonviable before the discussion is even had? Am I the only one who finds thinking about these strategies and how they could work interesting in itself? Regardless of whether or not it turns into something useful in the end?
This is the difference between Day9 and Incontrol on state of the game and it frustrates the hell out of me. I am also saying this without being any kind of a Day9 fanboy. But Day9 actually just started up a discussion with an open ended question saying it would be interesting to see some new ideas as to how you could mech in TvP, because I think there might be something there. He never said mech is the best build, or strong or even viable at all. Hell not even Artosis actually said flat out that he is convinced that mech is the way to go in TvP. It appears that way because Incontrol instantly turned from a discussion into a debate and by taking such a strong position himself it puts what Day9 and Artosis said out of proportions and perspective. I much rather have discussions than debates on state of the game. I don't give a crap about how many pro's declare that mech is nonviable I still would like to hear Artosis and Day9 use their combined theoretical brilliance on the matter and just get their thoughts. Why does it have to be instantly trolled into a high school debate because incontrol gets frustrated and emotional when he does not win an argument that he created out of nothing?
And I also say this as someone who loves Incontrol to death. I just don't think he quite realizes that he gets really competitive whenever there is a discussion brewing...
edit: And furthermore this idea that the validity of your arguments can just be quantified based on your success with the game is nonsensical. To make the argument that all of Day9 and Artosises insight into the game is automatically irrelevant because they don't have the tournament success to back it up is a very skewed way of thinking about understanding of the game. So because they don't "play" starcraft 2 incontrol's arguments are by default better and argument is over. How far are we going to take that notion of success = credentials to have a say? Clearly the next time there is any kind of disagreement between incontrol and idra on sotg, IdrA wins by default. Having stronger tournament results clearly means his arguments are automatically worth more and the argument is over. We could in fact just skip over all kinds of discussion and just ask MvP every single question relating to Starcraft and write it down as law, these answers would be the correct ones until someone else wins more gsls. (If I recall, MvP said that Terran was the weakest race as well. Since we can't really argue with that due to his status, I guess we have a lot of new stuff to adapt to in game. I wonder when the patch will arrive).
What are you talking about? Do you really think the reason nobody is going mech is because people haven't tried it? Whenever someone tries Mech in TvP they lose, in fact why don't you try Mech vs. P yourself and see how it goes? You are putting every terran on the spot here. You call us lazy or simply uncreative. I played 200 games with Mech vs. Protoss and even at Mid-master level they were able to exploit the obviouses weaknesses.
You have zero answeres to blink stalkers. That is the biggest reason Mech will always fail. Hellions are too weak vs stalkers, Tanks are immobile. Next problem is that you are stuck on 3 base, Mech is simply not mobile enough to secure a 4th base. And mech in a head to head engagament isn't even necessarily cost-effective against a protoss deathball. hellions are bad against chargelots, they really are. and late-lategame mech has no answer to carrier/phoenix, you just lose the game if your opponent techs to that composition.
Trust me I know that because I play mech in every matchup (except for TvP, but I used to, with absolutely no success, just like every other terran who tried it had no success going full mech vs. protoss) in fact why don't you just read the pm I sent incontrol yesterday.
Hey Incontrol!
I'm a mid master terran player and used to go mech in all my tvp matches. My win rate was like 20% with Mech so I then decided to play bio and it now is around 60-75%.
I have alot of experience with mech in tvp (around 200 games) and I know I'm not a high level player but even at my skill level, protoss players are good enough to exploit the weaknesses of mech.
First of all.
Blink Stalkers - They absolute destroy mech, in combination with observers they can just blink into your main and it's impossible to spread your tanks out well enough to defend 3 bases vs. Blink stalkers. I am sure you know what I mean.
Warp prism - Like you said, even with sensor towers, tanks are absolutely immobile. You can't spread out your tanks or even unsiege them at any point because an unsieged mech army is simply awful. with blink stalker in combination with warp prism harrass mech simply gets destroyed
Open maps - Most maps nowadays are extremely open, you can never get a 4th base up, I tried it but you don't have enough units to defend all bases, it is actually impossible.
Chargelots - Hellions are actually really bad against chargelots, you can even go to the unit test maps and try it, as soon as chargelots close in tanks kill your own hellions before they kills the zealots.
Warp gate - if you trade chargelots vs. tank/hellion, you can then simply warp in stalkers to clean up banshees and ravens. the big advantage of protoss is that they can tech switch immediately, if you kill the ground army you can then warp in enough units to kill the air units of the terran. you could go 100% anti ground and trade vs. a terran army with vikings, banshees, tanks and hellions and then go 100% stalker to clean up the air units. No chance for terran to beat this.
Phoenix/Carrier - it's actually impossible to beat with mech, vikings get annihilated by mass phoenixes and carriers kill everything else, if you simply magicbox phoenixes thors won't do anything and thors take up so much simply you simply won't have many of them anyway.
upgrades - protoss already can go double forge and be on 3/3 when terran gets 2/2 with bio. with mech you are even slower in upgrades, it'standard to be 1/1 when the protoss is 3/3.
losing army - once you lose a mech army, you are simply dead.
these are all the point i could think of right now, please make sure artosis reads this because I actually tried so hard to make mech work but it gets hard countered by the protoss army.
thanks and love you (artosis sucks jk) <3
I'm sure you will just ignore this post now because it shows you how bad mech is and how many weaknesses it has or you will simply tell me that I'm not good enough, which is a joke, because the opponent's I play against play at the exact same level I do (mid master) and they just crush Mech, even Goody is going bio vs. protoss now because mech simply doesn't work.
So please, for the love of god, stop trying to teach other people how to play a race that you don't even play yourself, I don't tell you how to play protoss or zerg either, you have absolutely no experience with Mech. So just try it yourself and see how far it gets you, but please, until then just shut up.
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On December 08 2011 14:55 VanGarde wrote:
You know what the irony of this thread right now is? It is filled with diamond and master players who are saying that Artosis is an idiot, how can he even talk about mech in TvP when he himself is not a pro? Then said diamond and master player proceeds to explain why mech is not viable and randomly lists a lot of vague or irrelevant statements. So Artosis not being a pro has no saying on the matter but random 200 posts rank 1 master league guy has the credentials to declare that all work has been done, mech is not viable in any shape or form?
What has happened to this community when the concept of having a discussion over HOW you could theoretically play mech instantly has to get turned into a two sides fighting over whether or not it is impossible or not just for the sake of winning the argument? Who the fuck cares about who is right? What is the glory you achieve by winning the argument now and declaring mech nonviable before the discussion is even had? Am I the only one who finds thinking about these strategies and how they could work interesting in itself? Regardless of whether or not it turns into something useful in the end?
This is the difference between Day9 and Incontrol on state of the game and it frustrates the hell out of me. I am also saying this without being any kind of a Day9 fanboy. But Day9 actually just started up a discussion with an open ended question saying it would be interesting to see some new ideas as to how you could mech in TvP, because I think there might be something there. He never said mech is the best build, or strong or even viable at all. Hell not even Artosis actually said flat out that he is convinced that mech is the way to go in TvP. It appears that way because Incontrol instantly turned from a discussion into a debate and by taking such a strong position himself it puts what Day9 and Artosis said out of proportions and perspective. I much rather have discussions than debates on state of the game. I don't give a crap about how many pro's declare that mech is nonviable I still would like to hear Artosis and Day9 use their combined theoretical brilliance on the matter and just get their thoughts. Why does it have to be instantly trolled into a high school debate because incontrol gets frustrated and emotional when he does not win an argument that he created out of nothing?
And I also say this as someone who loves Incontrol to death. I just don't think he quite realizes that he gets really competitive whenever there is a discussion brewing...
edit: And furthermore this idea that the validity of your arguments can just be quantified based on your success with the game is nonsensical. To make the argument that all of Day9 and Artosises insight into the game is automatically irrelevant because they don't have the tournament success to back it up is a very skewed way of thinking about understanding of the game. So because they don't "play" starcraft 2 incontrol's arguments are by default better and argument is over. How far are we going to take that notion of success = credentials to have a say? Clearly the next time there is any kind of disagreement between incontrol and idra on sotg, IdrA wins by default. Having stronger tournament results clearly means his arguments are automatically worth more and the argument is over. We could in fact just skip over all kinds of discussion and just ask MvP every single question relating to Starcraft and write it down as law, these answers would be the correct ones until someone else wins more gsls. (If I recall, MvP said that Terran was the weakest race as well. Since we can't really argue with that due to his status, I guess we have a lot of new stuff to adapt to in game. I wonder when the patch will arrive).
Liquid Jinro who stated some of the many obvious reasons that mech is crap is your average diamond leaguer?
You don't have a clue dude
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great episoda again
love your work roll on xD
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40.000 viewers.
Following 3 groups will each cast a game of another team and will play against each other in a Bo3 Random Race.
Day[9] vs Tasteless casted by Artosis+Tyler
Artosis vs Tyler casted by iNcontroL+JP
iNcontroL vs JP casted by Day[9]+Tasteless
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On December 08 2011 15:59 nvrs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 14:55 VanGarde wrote:
You know what the irony of this thread right now is? It is filled with diamond and master players who are saying that Artosis is an idiot, how can he even talk about mech in TvP when he himself is not a pro? Then said diamond and master player proceeds to explain why mech is not viable and randomly lists a lot of vague or irrelevant statements. So Artosis not being a pro has no saying on the matter but random 200 posts rank 1 master league guy has the credentials to declare that all work has been done, mech is not viable in any shape or form?
What has happened to this community when the concept of having a discussion over HOW you could theoretically play mech instantly has to get turned into a two sides fighting over whether or not it is impossible or not just for the sake of winning the argument? Who the fuck cares about who is right? What is the glory you achieve by winning the argument now and declaring mech nonviable before the discussion is even had? Am I the only one who finds thinking about these strategies and how they could work interesting in itself? Regardless of whether or not it turns into something useful in the end?
This is the difference between Day9 and Incontrol on state of the game and it frustrates the hell out of me. I am also saying this without being any kind of a Day9 fanboy. But Day9 actually just started up a discussion with an open ended question saying it would be interesting to see some new ideas as to how you could mech in TvP, because I think there might be something there. He never said mech is the best build, or strong or even viable at all. Hell not even Artosis actually said flat out that he is convinced that mech is the way to go in TvP. It appears that way because Incontrol instantly turned from a discussion into a debate and by taking such a strong position himself it puts what Day9 and Artosis said out of proportions and perspective. I much rather have discussions than debates on state of the game. I don't give a crap about how many pro's declare that mech is nonviable I still would like to hear Artosis and Day9 use their combined theoretical brilliance on the matter and just get their thoughts. Why does it have to be instantly trolled into a high school debate because incontrol gets frustrated and emotional when he does not win an argument that he created out of nothing?
And I also say this as someone who loves Incontrol to death. I just don't think he quite realizes that he gets really competitive whenever there is a discussion brewing...
edit: And furthermore this idea that the validity of your arguments can just be quantified based on your success with the game is nonsensical. To make the argument that all of Day9 and Artosises insight into the game is automatically irrelevant because they don't have the tournament success to back it up is a very skewed way of thinking about understanding of the game. So because they don't "play" starcraft 2 incontrol's arguments are by default better and argument is over. How far are we going to take that notion of success = credentials to have a say? Clearly the next time there is any kind of disagreement between incontrol and idra on sotg, IdrA wins by default. Having stronger tournament results clearly means his arguments are automatically worth more and the argument is over. We could in fact just skip over all kinds of discussion and just ask MvP every single question relating to Starcraft and write it down as law, these answers would be the correct ones until someone else wins more gsls. (If I recall, MvP said that Terran was the weakest race as well. Since we can't really argue with that due to his status, I guess we have a lot of new stuff to adapt to in game. I wonder when the patch will arrive). Liquid Jinro who stated some of the many obvious reasons that mech is crap is your average diamond leaguer? You don't have a clue dude
I don't know why everyone's panties are in such a bunch over this. Day9 and Artosis said "hey, maybe this idea could possibly work. Throwing in siege tanks and banshees into a standard Terran composition might work well." Which is pretty similar to the 1-1-1 composition, which is clearly very good up until fairly high food counts vs Protoss.
Then somehow that turns into them saying that you have to go pure mech or you're bad at the matchup? That simply didn't happen, they asked a question and admitted that they could be wrong. Now everyone is acting like they're completely out of touch with reality.
Get over it.
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On December 08 2011 10:32 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I dont even think mech is gonna be good vs protoss in the expansion, based purely on what we have seen so far.
I'm getting the same impression, unfortunately :\ I don't see the battle hellion doing that much, because it'll just end up being colossi/HT fodder since it's too slow to micro. The range of the warhound might make it good against pure stalker/colossi builds, but as soon as immortals and chargelots are mixed in, it probably won't last either. It's too early to tell, of course, but nothing I've seen so far has made me especially optimistic. You can't even spend supply on Shredders when going mech, because tanks cost so much in terms of supply and you need a ton of tanks for them to be effective.
On December 08 2011 17:21 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 15:59 nvrs wrote:On December 08 2011 14:55 VanGarde wrote:
You know what the irony of this thread right now is? It is filled with diamond and master players who are saying that Artosis is an idiot, how can he even talk about mech in TvP when he himself is not a pro? Then said diamond and master player proceeds to explain why mech is not viable and randomly lists a lot of vague or irrelevant statements. So Artosis not being a pro has no saying on the matter but random 200 posts rank 1 master league guy has the credentials to declare that all work has been done, mech is not viable in any shape or form?
What has happened to this community when the concept of having a discussion over HOW you could theoretically play mech instantly has to get turned into a two sides fighting over whether or not it is impossible or not just for the sake of winning the argument? Who the fuck cares about who is right? What is the glory you achieve by winning the argument now and declaring mech nonviable before the discussion is even had? Am I the only one who finds thinking about these strategies and how they could work interesting in itself? Regardless of whether or not it turns into something useful in the end?
This is the difference between Day9 and Incontrol on state of the game and it frustrates the hell out of me. I am also saying this without being any kind of a Day9 fanboy. But Day9 actually just started up a discussion with an open ended question saying it would be interesting to see some new ideas as to how you could mech in TvP, because I think there might be something there. He never said mech is the best build, or strong or even viable at all. Hell not even Artosis actually said flat out that he is convinced that mech is the way to go in TvP. It appears that way because Incontrol instantly turned from a discussion into a debate and by taking such a strong position himself it puts what Day9 and Artosis said out of proportions and perspective. I much rather have discussions than debates on state of the game. I don't give a crap about how many pro's declare that mech is nonviable I still would like to hear Artosis and Day9 use their combined theoretical brilliance on the matter and just get their thoughts. Why does it have to be instantly trolled into a high school debate because incontrol gets frustrated and emotional when he does not win an argument that he created out of nothing?
And I also say this as someone who loves Incontrol to death. I just don't think he quite realizes that he gets really competitive whenever there is a discussion brewing...
edit: And furthermore this idea that the validity of your arguments can just be quantified based on your success with the game is nonsensical. To make the argument that all of Day9 and Artosises insight into the game is automatically irrelevant because they don't have the tournament success to back it up is a very skewed way of thinking about understanding of the game. So because they don't "play" starcraft 2 incontrol's arguments are by default better and argument is over. How far are we going to take that notion of success = credentials to have a say? Clearly the next time there is any kind of disagreement between incontrol and idra on sotg, IdrA wins by default. Having stronger tournament results clearly means his arguments are automatically worth more and the argument is over. We could in fact just skip over all kinds of discussion and just ask MvP every single question relating to Starcraft and write it down as law, these answers would be the correct ones until someone else wins more gsls. (If I recall, MvP said that Terran was the weakest race as well. Since we can't really argue with that due to his status, I guess we have a lot of new stuff to adapt to in game. I wonder when the patch will arrive). Liquid Jinro who stated some of the many obvious reasons that mech is crap is your average diamond leaguer? You don't have a clue dude I don't know why everyone's panties are in such a bunch over this. Day9 and Artosis said "hey, maybe this idea could possibly work. Throwing in siege tanks and banshees into a standard Terran composition might work well." Which is pretty similar to the 1-1-1 composition, which is clearly very good up until fairly high food counts vs Protoss. Then somehow that turns into them saying that you have to go pure mech or you're bad at the matchup? That simply didn't happen, they asked a question and admitted that they could be wrong. Now everyone is acting like they're completely out of touch with reality. Get over it.
Artosis was never moderate in his opinion about tvp mech until the very end of the discussion when he backed off and was like "maybe it never will be the best way to play tvp" Up until that point, he seemed convinced that mech is the most powerful way to play tvp, and that good players have never tried to make it work
Day9's initial idea was very different than pure mech, and it could've been an interesting discussion, but it was Artosis that turned it into a "mech is the correct way to play" kind of thing... blame him, not Incontrol
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Geoff was right.
Once Zealots speed is done, the splash damage dealt to friendly units by tanks is too high to handle by a Terran.
Day9 and Artosis love affair dumping down Geoff was bad to see.
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On December 08 2011 14:55 VanGarde wrote:
You know what the irony of this thread right now is? It is filled with diamond and master players who are saying that Artosis is an idiot, how can he even talk about mech in TvP when he himself is not a pro? Then said diamond and master player proceeds to explain why mech is not viable and randomly lists a lot of vague or irrelevant statements. So Artosis not being a pro has no saying on the matter but random 200 posts rank 1 master league guy has the credentials to declare that all work has been done, mech is not viable in any shape or form?
What has happened to this community when the concept of having a discussion over HOW you could theoretically play mech instantly has to get turned into a two sides fighting over whether or not it is impossible or not just for the sake of winning the argument? Who the fuck cares about who is right? What is the glory you achieve by winning the argument now and declaring mech nonviable before the discussion is even had? Am I the only one who finds thinking about these strategies and how they could work interesting in itself? Regardless of whether or not it turns into something useful in the end?
This is the difference between Day9 and Incontrol on state of the game and it frustrates the hell out of me. I am also saying this without being any kind of a Day9 fanboy. But Day9 actually just started up a discussion with an open ended question saying it would be interesting to see some new ideas as to how you could mech in TvP, because I think there might be something there. He never said mech is the best build, or strong or even viable at all. Hell not even Artosis actually said flat out that he is convinced that mech is the way to go in TvP. It appears that way because Incontrol instantly turned from a discussion into a debate and by taking such a strong position himself it puts what Day9 and Artosis said out of proportions and perspective. I much rather have discussions than debates on state of the game. I don't give a crap about how many pro's declare that mech is nonviable I still would like to hear Artosis and Day9 use their combined theoretical brilliance on the matter and just get their thoughts. Why does it have to be instantly trolled into a high school debate because incontrol gets frustrated and emotional when he does not win an argument that he created out of nothing?
And I also say this as someone who loves Incontrol to death. I just don't think he quite realizes that he gets really competitive whenever there is a discussion brewing...
edit: And furthermore this idea that the validity of your arguments can just be quantified based on your success with the game is nonsensical. To make the argument that all of Day9 and Artosises insight into the game is automatically irrelevant because they don't have the tournament success to back it up is a very skewed way of thinking about understanding of the game. So because they don't "play" starcraft 2 incontrol's arguments are by default better and argument is over. How far are we going to take that notion of success = credentials to have a say? Clearly the next time there is any kind of disagreement between incontrol and idra on sotg, IdrA wins by default. Having stronger tournament results clearly means his arguments are automatically worth more and the argument is over. We could in fact just skip over all kinds of discussion and just ask MvP every single question relating to Starcraft and write it down as law, these answers would be the correct ones until someone else wins more gsls. (If I recall, MvP said that Terran was the weakest race as well. Since we can't really argue with that due to his status, I guess we have a lot of new stuff to adapt to in game. I wonder when the patch will arrive).
The problem is that us Terrans don't like the statement "hey mech is best in TvP" by someone who doesn't play Terran. And I never implied Artosis was an idiot, just that I think he's wrong on this one. It's not a matter of "Artosis isnt' a pro therefore his opinion sucks now listen to this clearly not pro player with the REAL INFORMATION" it's "Artosis doesn't play Terran and has never tried this himself. It's pure theory. Here's the opinions of people who've actually tried this shit before." Also, Goody not playing Mech TvP anymore is massive. You can't overlook the fact that the smartest, most experienced and accomplished Mech player in the world just decided that mech is no longer viable in TvP.
I never said Mech was impossible in TvP because impossible is too strong a word. I'm saying that there's almost no point trying to get Mech to work because it's just too damn difficult, there's too many problems with it and Heart of the Swarm is around the corner so why put so much effort into it when it's all going to change massively anyway?
But I like your view. Theory >>> Practical Experience. Because that's how strategy discussions work. Now with the power of my mind alone I will no longer lose to 3 gate void ray all ins!
That was a joke. That fucking build gets me every time I swear...
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goody says mech is impossible tvp and he was the only one who ever really played mech tvp anyway so i dont see any point of a discussion
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On December 08 2011 10:32 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Until a mothership recalls immortals into your main and you have to engage immortals unsieged up a ramp. (btw, if you recall over an unpassable area like water the fucking units will show up on land, if you are close enough - had that happen when I had a perfect turret ring setup and god damn HerO recalled over the water and everything ended up inside my main)
hahahahaha thats awesome
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On December 08 2011 16:25 Koshi wrote:
40.000 viewers.
Following 3 groups will each cast a game of another team and will play against each other in a Bo3 Random Race.
Day[9] vs Tasteless casted by Artosis+Tyler
Artosis vs Tyler casted by iNcontroL+JP
iNcontroL vs JP casted by Day[9]+Tasteless
This a thousand times.
But throw in a Tasteless vs Artosis off racing with Artosis Zerg and Nick Terran.
Just so they play the opposing races of there game knowledge. Since I'm guessing Nick knows Protoss + Zerg and Dan Protoss + Terran.
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EPT
