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Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 1868

Forum Index > SC2 General
54608 CommentsPost a Reply
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RimasOwn
Profile Joined November 2011
Ireland34 Posts
December 08 2011 15:15 GMT
#37341
For 40000 viewers

Have Day[9],InControl,Arotosis,Jp,Tyler,Tasteless Play showmatches while being really drunk :D
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 08 2011 15:15 GMT
#37342
On December 08 2011 10:32 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2011 07:47 4Servy wrote:
Artosis sounds like a diamond player when it comes to terran no offense meant but all that ''mech is the way crap'' is starting to get old. Most these terrans in gomtv are ex BW pros some even from the A team. They would for sure know how to play mech since it was that important in BW in tvt and tvp but the fact that they dont and go for a all in 80% of the time or some timing break on the toss 3th tells you alteast something.

Today I had some time off from uni in the morning and watched boxer vs marineking and even though undeniably boxer made alot of mistakes in game 3 it was still so obvious that even in TvT mech is just not as good. Its completly inmobile and tanks just dont lock positions down hard enough like they did in BW. Basicly mkp just amoved (hardly even maxed) up a ramp with 3/3 bio into 8+ siege tanks destroyed them all and then took out a base and everything snowballed out of ctrl.

Also with the removal of the spider mines and high damage tanks its just so hard to lock positions down or delay enemy counter attacks enough with mech. This makes thats its nigh impossible to push forward in tvt and tvp and at best you are going to get a base race situation. In tvz it kinda works because tanks on the cliff or near a PF and helion/thor reinforcements are good vs like low hp zerg units that attempt a counter attack.

BoxeR would have never ever ever lost that game if he spent some of his excess minerals on PFs or if he just fucking killed marineking after he suicided his entire army.

Mech past 2 bases vs protoss is the biggest joke of an idea ever tho.

200 supply mech just doesnt do shit to protoss and you are completely unable to spread your army because anytime you do, 2 immortals will show up and eat 6 tanks without losing their shield.

I dont even think mech is gonna be good vs protoss in the expansion, based purely on what we have seen so far.

Show nested quote +
On December 08 2011 09:47 Big J wrote:
On December 08 2011 09:16 Quotidian wrote:
argh

I've been playing a lot of tvp customs today, trying to get mech to work, and I've lost every one where the protoss didn't flat out die to the early harass (and I lost some where the protoss was essentially "dead" as well) and it got to a mid/lategame scenario. Mech is worthless.

Seeing relatively small army of chargelots, archons, stalkers and HTs a-move and then storm to death an army with 5-6 siege tanks and 3 or so banshees camped behind two bunkers with marines walled off with depots and an engie bay will seriously fuck with your head. You basically need 20 or so tanks to even trade armies, and in all likelihood you'll be dead before that anyway.

Now I feel frustrated and depressed and I blame Artosis -.-


I've been playing around with Mech a lot in TvP customs (I'm a masters zerg player) and I found it extremly viable on even level (I'd say my terran is around diamond)
I'm just expanding and sieging and cautiously trying to have as much mapcontrol with hellions as possible, not even trying to do too much damage and at some point multipronged hellion harass always seem to put enough pressure on the protoss so that he charges into my tanklines and it often comes down to me just screwing up positioning and hellion play when I lose imo...
I'm completly on this with Artosis and Day9: Mech has never been tried in TvP in high level play, but seeing Goody playing Mech vs Protoss and seeing this awesome TvP "Pure Air" Guide (masterlevel) in the strategy section, it just looks to me as if there is a lot of potential out there for it.
Noone is really saying that Mech is stronger than MMMVG or even viable in a figuered out metagame, but for me a lot of the Antimech arguments are too "practical" (Immortals and Chargelots are so good against Mech). It sounds a little bit like the times when zergs didn't build zerglings against Protoss after 8min, because they would just suck against FFs, Colossi, Storms and whatever Protoss was throwing at us in 2base vs 2base games and you couldn't afford to "waste" larva on units that couldn't help in the 1A-battle deathball vs roach+something. I feel like a big Tankline is always strategically better than a fragile, mobile force running all over the place (in the lategame), because you can create those supersafe areas, which is the most scary thing in the world for me as an opponent.

Until a single warp prism makes it into your base and you cant fend it off without sending your entire army.
Until a protoss blinks into your main and snipes every addon.
Until a protoss tech switches to carriers and then back to ground.
Until you lose a 200/200 fight and by the time he's at your front door, remaxed, your first reinforcement wave of units has not even finished.
Until a mothership recalls immortals into your main and you have to engage immortals unsieged up a ramp. (btw, if you recall over an unpassable area like water the fucking units will show up on land, if you are close enough - had that happen when I had a perfect turret ring setup and god damn HerO recalled over the water and everything ended up inside my main)
Until you realize that tanks take 11 shots to kill an archon.
Until you realize that tanks get raped by colossi unless you are maxed out.
Until you realize that there is 0 ways to kill an expansion because of how good warp in is, without commiting your entire army.

Macro mech vs protoss is bad on almost every map.


So you're playing around with Mech against Protoss in practice? Is there any way to get replay packs or a description of your gameplan for Mech play from you in TvP?

Just to add it, that's exactly what I was talking about... Those kinds of lists that happened in some game and now Mech is "not viable" because of it. It sounds a little bit like the "Muta OP vs Protoss" - arguments in which Protoss "can't win unless zerg screws up", while the mutalisk-month november was the best Protoss PvZ month in a long time.
But I guess there is really no point for me to argue with you, as you will simply know better than me, still I think that Mech could at least be refinded to the point where Protoss players would need a gameplan other than "oh fuck, he is going Mech and I have no clue how to play against it. Let's just try something and hope he doesn't know how to react to it". (though I don't have that big of an insight into Pro-Training as you have, so I might point out something that people are actually working on to be prepared "just in case someone really has a very refinded TvP Mech".
ceaRshaf
Profile Joined August 2009
Romania4926 Posts
December 08 2011 15:32 GMT
#37343
While drunk I wish each guest to tell one ugly truth about each one of the rest. "You're fat!","You stink", etc :D
Mess with the best, die like the rest.
Kevan
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden2303 Posts
December 08 2011 15:39 GMT
#37344
On December 08 2011 07:24 iNcontroL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2011 07:01 Soulrivers wrote:
Just a bit curious, IdrA said on a NASL interview with Hot_bid that he was single now, yet I think it was his GF (kathy?) that was in incontrol's cam on the last sotg, apparently living in the EG-house... Anyone wanna clarify this?


I can clarify that IdrA is married to Kathy. It's a secret marriage that must now be discussed: Kathy was originally a man but the surgery was such a success that she was renamed to "Eva." Eva was originally married to the surgeon that performed the operation but the marriage became loveless as the surgeon had a tough time actually maintaining his attraction to "Eva" due to the fact that she was in fact a he.

Eva eventually moved on but due to the fact that her vaginal operation wasn't fully complete her vaginal canal was shallow and thus clearly not that of a normal woman. Knowing this she preferred to be with younger men or men who don't have as much sexual experience and could thus never really understand something was wrong. That is where Greg comes in.. since then they have had a physical relationship that has made everyone around Eva and greg uncomfortable due to the intensity of their relationship but also because Eva behaved fairly predatorial.

Fast forward to NOW where greg has fled the country to korea under the guise of "training" but in reality he just can't take the truth. Demuslim came hope after learning about Eva's true identity and he outted her in a dramatic clash last night that left machine physically impaired. Now Axslav is afraid to come out of his room Eva renamed her/himself "Kathy" and is stalking the halls of the EG lair.

I write this so you may all know what happened.

Pray for me.

Just call Manfred and Sean and get some tinderboxes. And oil, lots of oil.
SC2, rip in pepperinos
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
December 08 2011 15:48 GMT
#37345
On December 09 2011 00:08 NPF wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2011 16:25 Koshi wrote:
40.000 viewers.

Following 3 groups will each cast a game of another team and will play against each other in a Bo3 Random Race.

Day[9] vs Tasteless casted by Artosis+Tyler

Artosis vs Tyler casted by iNcontroL+JP

iNcontroL vs JP casted by Day[9]+Tasteless



This a thousand times.

But throw in a Tasteless vs Artosis off racing with Artosis Zerg and Nick Terran.

Just so they play the opposing races of there game knowledge. Since I'm guessing Nick knows Protoss + Zerg and Dan Protoss + Terran.

Other way around. Tasteless played Terran in the beta and Artosis played Zerg.

Artosis even qualified for a GSL open as Zerg. It'd be a little unfair.
MCDayC
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom14464 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 16:13:38
December 08 2011 16:13 GMT
#37346
The problem that Artosis had in the mech vs protoss debate is his assertion that 200 v 200 mech beats anything that protoss has. Which I think is flat out wrong. Chargelot Immortal crushes mech in anything be the smallest of chokes.
VERY FRAGILE, LIKE A BABY PANDA EGG
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
December 08 2011 16:13 GMT
#37347
I am going to have to applaud the few people who replied to my post and thus proved my argument. So I made a long post pointing out that Day9 and Artosis never said mech was actually good but just wanted to discuss if it could be. I also made the point that people get so caught up in arguing a stupid point that did not even exist in the first place that they don't listen to what people say or read what people write.

So four/five people go out to prove the point by instantly replying to me continuing arguing the point I already said I did not care about, and clearly replies without having read my post since you once again state "Well we just don't like it when Artosis sais mech is the best thing in TvP" or more iterations of "this is why mech does not work, here is a pro player who supports my position".

Are people really this fucking stupid in 2011? READ THE GOD DAMN POST BEFORE YOU REPLY TO IT IN A WAY THAT COMPLETELY PROVES MY ARGUMENT.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
Soulrivers
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden46 Posts
December 08 2011 16:14 GMT
#37348
On December 08 2011 07:24 iNcontroL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2011 07:01 Soulrivers wrote:
Just a bit curious, IdrA said on a NASL interview with Hot_bid that he was single now, yet I think it was his GF (kathy?) that was in incontrol's cam on the last sotg, apparently living in the EG-house... Anyone wanna clarify this?


I can clarify that IdrA is married to Kathy. It's a secret marriage that must now be discussed: Kathy was originally a man but the surgery was such a success that she was renamed to "Eva." Eva was originally married to the surgeon that performed the operation but the marriage became loveless as the surgeon had a tough time actually maintaining his attraction to "Eva" due to the fact that she was in fact a he.

Eva eventually moved on but due to the fact that her vaginal operation wasn't fully complete her vaginal canal was shallow and thus clearly not that of a normal woman. Knowing this she preferred to be with younger men or men who don't have as much sexual experience and could thus never really understand something was wrong. That is where Greg comes in.. since then they have had a physical relationship that has made everyone around Eva and greg uncomfortable due to the intensity of their relationship but also because Eva behaved fairly predatorial.

Fast forward to NOW where greg has fled the country to korea under the guise of "training" but in reality he just can't take the truth. Demuslim came hope after learning about Eva's true identity and he outted her in a dramatic clash last night that left machine physically impaired. Now Axslav is afraid to come out of his room Eva renamed her/himself "Kathy" and is stalking the halls of the EG lair.

I write this so you may all know what happened.

Pray for me.

Thanks for clearing things up.
Necosarius
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Sweden4042 Posts
December 08 2011 16:18 GMT
#37349
If you bring something up, please talk about it. What happened at the last MLG that eveyone got pissed off about? >_>
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
December 08 2011 17:52 GMT
#37350
On December 08 2011 14:55 VanGarde wrote: I still would like to hear Artosis and Day9 use their combined theoretical brilliance on the matter and just get their thoughts. .


This 'theoretical brilliance' is no better than random people on the forums theorycrafting stupid shit. Artosis i wouldn't call brilliant at all hence why he defends these stupid ideas so poorly, and Day9 just takes his overly-neutral view and will try and argue in favour of it regardless of how dumb it is. Comparing TvT mech to TvP, a fucking mirror matchup, is the dumbest shit ever. So many reasons it's wrong and dumb, and SO MANY differences from BW to make mech much worse.

It's not interesting to hear theoretical compositions that don't even stand up very well in theory let alone in practice. It's pathetic really to see Artosis who hypes up everyone as amazing claiming that mech is really hard so it's not been tested enough. You know what else was hard, mech in BW.. and people like MVP played it for fucking years so why would it be too hard to try and do now.
AsnSensation
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany24009 Posts
December 08 2011 18:34 GMT
#37351
Just finished watching the episode, was pretty nice.

Im willing to let the stream run on both desktop and laptop next week to help achieve the 30-40k although I can't watch live because I have university on wednesday, but sad face because no SOTG for so long lol^^
Quotidian
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway1937 Posts
December 08 2011 18:39 GMT
#37352
On December 09 2011 01:13 VanGarde wrote:
I am going to have to applaud the few people who replied to my post and thus proved my argument. So I made a long post pointing out that Day9 and Artosis never said mech was actually good but just wanted to discuss if it could be. I also made the point that people get so caught up in arguing a stupid point that did not even exist in the first place that they don't listen to what people say or read what people write.

So four/five people go out to prove the point by instantly replying to me continuing arguing the point I already said I did not care about, and clearly replies without having read my post since you once again state "Well we just don't like it when Artosis sais mech is the best thing in TvP" or more iterations of "this is why mech does not work, here is a pro player who supports my position".

Are people really this fucking stupid in 2011? READ THE GOD DAMN POST BEFORE YOU REPLY TO IT IN A WAY THAT COMPLETELY PROVES MY ARGUMENT.



Maybe you should listen to the episode again. Artosis did say that tvp mech would the best way to play the match up ("forget marines, man, siege tanks are so good" and other nonsense) which is why he kept bringing up tvt mech, which he for some nostalgic BW reason thinks is the best way to play tvt in SC2. Blizzard have been doing what they can to make sure that tvt mech isn't the best and only way to play the match up, so he's even off the mark on that one.

Day9 was way more moderate and open, and initially not even interested in a pure mech discussion, but rather a mobile harassment base style of play with a strong, fortified position like in tvz. Artosis is the one who made it into a "mech is the right way to play tvp" discussion. On top of that, Artosis was really confrontational and belligerent towards Incontrol when confronted with the fact that mech is garbage in tvp. Incontrol was the only one who actually backed up his arguments with things related to how the match up actually works now, when he described the current protoss playstyle.

Anyway, I prefer listening to people like Jinro and Thorzain, who actually have first hand, practice- and tournament-based, rather than Artosis who is just theory crafting
MasterBlasterCaster
Profile Joined October 2011
United States568 Posts
December 08 2011 18:42 GMT
#37353
I tend to agree and disagree with Artosis on mech.

No, I don't think it is the end-all-be-all "only way to play" method in ANY matchup.

Yes, I do think that it is extremely strong in TvT when done correctly, and can be used in TvP.

Bio+Ghosts+Mech BACKUP= IMO the best Terran strategy for almost any matchup.
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 18:51:07
December 08 2011 18:48 GMT
#37354
day9 is really smart and im constantly impressed with how well he keeps up with strategies, and even sees new strats coming before they hit mainstream. but i think the thing that gave him the extra oomph that made him american champion of BW so many times was his own personal testing and re-testing and re-testing and re-testing. he talks about this method all the time in his dailies, where you essentially make a hypothesis on how to play a certain strat, play it until it fails, then adjust it, play it until it fails, adjust it, as many times as you can before you have to use it in competition. i think that process is something he has very little time for nowadays, so his own personal concrete contributions to strategy are extremely limited. he still comes up with great hypotheses, but without inhuman genius, it's a fact that most hypotheses are going to be simply wrong or in need of a ton of refinement through that process. so he's in an awkward position where he can hardly ever prove anything he says but he's still worth listening to, even though a lot of what he says is going to be (to some extent) wrong. artosis is in a similar boat

and hell, as long me and incontrol are losing, we're in a similar boat too. i think that unless you can point to a pro game where the thing you're saying will work works, you're kinda stuck. either it's proven in competition or it's not
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Crushgroove
Profile Joined July 2010
United States793 Posts
December 08 2011 18:48 GMT
#37355
On December 09 2011 00:08 NPF wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2011 16:25 Koshi wrote:
40.000 viewers.

Following 3 groups will each cast a game of another team and will play against each other in a Bo3 Random Race.

Day[9] vs Tasteless casted by Artosis+Tyler

Artosis vs Tyler casted by iNcontroL+JP

iNcontroL vs JP casted by Day[9]+Tasteless



This a thousand times.

But throw in a Tasteless vs Artosis off racing with Artosis Zerg and Nick Terran.

Just so they play the opposing races of there game knowledge. Since I'm guessing Nick knows Protoss + Zerg and Dan Protoss + Terran.



Dan played Zerg through the entire beta and the first 3 months of release....
[In Korea on Vaca] "Why would I go to the park and climb a mountain? There are video games on f*cking TV!" - Kazuke
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
December 08 2011 19:00 GMT
#37356
On December 09 2011 02:52 infinity2k9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2011 14:55 VanGarde wrote: I still would like to hear Artosis and Day9 use their combined theoretical brilliance on the matter and just get their thoughts. .


This 'theoretical brilliance' is no better than random people on the forums theorycrafting stupid shit. Artosis i wouldn't call brilliant at all hence why he defends these stupid ideas so poorly, and Day9 just takes his overly-neutral view and will try and argue in favour of it regardless of how dumb it is. Comparing TvT mech to TvP, a fucking mirror matchup, is the dumbest shit ever. So many reasons it's wrong and dumb, and SO MANY differences from BW to make mech much worse.

It's not interesting to hear theoretical compositions that don't even stand up very well in theory let alone in practice. It's pathetic really to see Artosis who hypes up everyone as amazing claiming that mech is really hard so it's not been tested enough. You know what else was hard, mech in BW.. and people like MVP played it for fucking years so why would it be too hard to try and do now.


True. The problem with artosis is that he likes a certain playstyle or a specific player, and instead of stating these strategies/players as his favourites, he makes a case that these are the best strategies and the best players.

He will do this very often, and its imo a huge problem for an analytical caster that he cant be objective.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
December 08 2011 19:01 GMT
#37357
On December 09 2011 03:48 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
day9 is really smart and im constantly impressed with how well he keeps up with strategies, and even sees new strats coming before they hit mainstream. but i think the thing that gave him the extra oomph that made him american champion of BW so many times was his own personal testing and re-testing and re-testing and re-testing. he talks about this method all the time in his dailies, where you essentially make a hypothesis on how to play a certain strat, play it until it fails, then adjust it, play it until it fails, adjust it, as many times as you can before you have to use it in competition. i think that process is something he has very little time for nowadays, so his own personal concrete contributions to strategy are extremely limited. he still comes up with great hypotheses, but without inhuman genius, it's a fact that most hypotheses are going to be simply wrong or in need of a ton of refinement through that process. so he's in an awkward position where he can hardly ever prove anything he says but he's still worth listening to, even though a lot of what he says is going to be (to some extent) wrong. artosis is in a similar boat

and hell, as long me and incontrol are losing, we're in a similar boat too. i think that unless you can point to a pro game where the thing you're saying will work works, you're kinda stuck. either it's proven in competition or it's not


No doubt day9 is really smart. But i have a question out of curiousity: What strategies/trends has he predicted?

Noev
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1105 Posts
December 08 2011 19:11 GMT
#37358
On December 09 2011 00:08 NPF wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2011 16:25 Koshi wrote:
40.000 viewers.

Following 3 groups will each cast a game of another team and will play against each other in a Bo3 Random Race.

Day[9] vs Tasteless casted by Artosis+Tyler

Artosis vs Tyler casted by iNcontroL+JP

iNcontroL vs JP casted by Day[9]+Tasteless



This a thousand times.

But throw in a Tasteless vs Artosis off racing with Artosis Zerg and Nick Terran.

Just so they play the opposing races of there game knowledge. Since I'm guessing Nick knows Protoss + Zerg and Dan Protoss + Terran.


I'm not sure what i would do if they did this, obviously watch but that would just be so amazing and funny to watch. Oh well we can dream can't we.
NPF
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada1635 Posts
December 08 2011 19:17 GMT
#37359
On December 09 2011 00:48 TedJustice wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 00:08 NPF wrote:
On December 08 2011 16:25 Koshi wrote:
40.000 viewers.

Following 3 groups will each cast a game of another team and will play against each other in a Bo3 Random Race.

Day[9] vs Tasteless casted by Artosis+Tyler

Artosis vs Tyler casted by iNcontroL+JP

iNcontroL vs JP casted by Day[9]+Tasteless



This a thousand times.

But throw in a Tasteless vs Artosis off racing with Artosis Zerg and Nick Terran.

Just so they play the opposing races of there game knowledge. Since I'm guessing Nick knows Protoss + Zerg and Dan Protoss + Terran.

Other way around. Tasteless played Terran in the beta and Artosis played Zerg.

Artosis even qualified for a GSL open as Zerg. It'd be a little unfair.


Yes CrushGroove I read your response as well.

Ok you're right. I was thinking in BW Dan played Terran + now he plays Protoss and Nick played Protoss and his brother Sean was a great Zerg.

I even watched Artosis lose in the GSL thanks for reminding me. I didn't know Tasteless played Terran in Beta I thought he played random like Mr.9 since they faced off in the HDH invitational tournament as both random.

But a show matches would be pretty cool.
SeRenExZerg
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States401 Posts
December 08 2011 19:19 GMT
#37360
i enjoyed this episode because there was actually legitimate talk about THE GAME, although still not as much as i would want. sotg has become somewhat of a disappointment for me in recent months because they are always so concerned with talking about bullshit drama and not about what matters.

i dont know, maybe viewers actually want to hear about tournament inefficiency and other drama within esports, but in the beginning the show was about the actual game starcraft 2- with blurbs here and there about tournament happenings and the like.

i tune in to hear some of the greatest starcraft minds talking about game theory and strategy, not about who they think is going to do well in group X of tournament Y, or why some guy is an idiot because of a mistake he made. I'm actually starting to prefer Inside the Game, because there is some great discussion that goes on about strategy, game predictions, etc.


sotg, please go back to the way you used to be T.T
One thing about deer: They have good vision. One thing about me: I am better at hiding than they are at vision.
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