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Artosis sounds like a diamond player when it comes to terran no offense meant but all that ''mech is the way crap'' is starting to get old. Most these terrans in gomtv are ex BW pros some even from the A team. They would for sure know how to play mech since it was that important in BW in tvt and tvp but the fact that they dont and go for a all in 80% of the time or some timing break on the toss 3th tells you alteast something.
Today I had some time off from uni in the morning and watched boxer vs marineking and even though undeniably boxer made alot of mistakes in game 3 it was still so obvious that even in TvT mech is just not as good. Its completly inmobile and tanks just dont lock positions down hard enough like they did in BW. Basicly mkp just amoved (hardly even maxed) up a ramp with 3/3 bio into 8+ siege tanks destroyed them all and then took out a base and everything snowballed out of ctrl.
Also with the removal of the spider mines and high damage tanks its just so hard to lock positions down or delay enemy counter attacks enough with mech. This makes thats its nigh impossible to push forward in tvt and tvp and at best you are going to get a base race situation. In tvz it kinda works because tanks on the cliff or near a PF and helion/thor reinforcements are good vs like low hp zerg units that attempt a counter attack.
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On December 08 2011 07:41 LambtrOn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:26 MasterKush wrote:On December 08 2011 06:39 Viperx wrote:
40k Viewer Idea-- (More like how far over 40k will you get idea)
Day[9] Showmatch Day, for CHARITY!
The Idea-- Have Day[9] play all 3 MUs, in a Bo3 format. The rest of the SOTG cast could either play him, or commentate the games. Past 'guests' could be brought on to participate in some way, whether commentating themselves, or being opponents, etc. Basically, if you have contributed to SOTG you are welcome, and encouraged to participate in whatever way you would want!
Why this could work-- Many pros have done WILDLY popular charity events / drives. For example: TLO, Destiny, Sheth (I am sure there are others I am forgetting). Everyone loves starcraft, and could watch Starcraft, watch one of the most popular personalities in Starcraft play 'professionally' for the first time in SC2, ALL WHILE HELPING CHARITY!!! Based on these examples, I think the 40k mark would EASILY be obtained, it is clear the starcraft community loves: Starcraft, Day[9], SOTG members, and charity.
Opponent Ideas for Day[9] to play-- These are not set in stone... just ideas... all have appeared (or were going to appear) on SOTG. I am sure I am forgetting people, Sorry If i am! Nothing personal!!
vZ: Destiny, Idra, Machine, Sheth
vP: Huk, Incontrol, Naniwa, Socke, Tyler, Whitera
vT: Demuslim, Jinro, TLO
Casters: Husky, JP, Tasteosis
-- The important part is the idea. Players / Logistics can be worked out later. The main point-- DAY[9] PLAYING PROS IN STARCRAFT 2!
No offence to Day9 (and I am sure he would admit this himself) but he wouldn't have a chance against any of those guys I highlighted above. They are all professional players that train for 8+ hours a day... Day9 is a caster & internet personality. Would be interesting to see him play against another caster though, like Artosis or the above. Have you ever seen him play SC2? So many people just jump to conclusions without any evidence at all. He said that he has GM with all three races, but doesn't have to time to play enough to stay in GM. You can choose not to believe him, I guess. But you really have no reason to. Also, +1 to incontrol. Please make that show match happen. I would donate for sure.
Where did he bring up that he has 3 GM accounts? I don't really watch the dailies so I wouldn't know unless he said it on a cast at a live event (and that's unlikely). If he does, then great. All I really meant was, with the kind of schedule I imagine he has, it doesn't seem plausible that he would have the time to play the game that much. And yes, people do jump to conclusions, but it works both ways. The majority of his followers would try and tell me he's better than MVP if I stuck around to listen to them.
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On December 08 2011 07:01 Soulrivers wrote:
Just a bit curious, IdrA said on a NASL interview with Hot_bid that he was single now, yet I think it was his GF (kathy?) that was in incontrol's cam on the last sotg, apparently living in the EG-house... Anyone wanna clarify this?
That was demuslim's GF abby. im pretty sure
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On December 08 2011 07:51 MasterKush wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:41 LambtrOn wrote:On December 08 2011 07:26 MasterKush wrote:On December 08 2011 06:39 Viperx wrote:
40k Viewer Idea-- (More like how far over 40k will you get idea)
Day[9] Showmatch Day, for CHARITY!
The Idea-- Have Day[9] play all 3 MUs, in a Bo3 format. The rest of the SOTG cast could either play him, or commentate the games. Past 'guests' could be brought on to participate in some way, whether commentating themselves, or being opponents, etc. Basically, if you have contributed to SOTG you are welcome, and encouraged to participate in whatever way you would want!
Why this could work-- Many pros have done WILDLY popular charity events / drives. For example: TLO, Destiny, Sheth (I am sure there are others I am forgetting). Everyone loves starcraft, and could watch Starcraft, watch one of the most popular personalities in Starcraft play 'professionally' for the first time in SC2, ALL WHILE HELPING CHARITY!!! Based on these examples, I think the 40k mark would EASILY be obtained, it is clear the starcraft community loves: Starcraft, Day[9], SOTG members, and charity.
Opponent Ideas for Day[9] to play-- These are not set in stone... just ideas... all have appeared (or were going to appear) on SOTG. I am sure I am forgetting people, Sorry If i am! Nothing personal!!
vZ: Destiny, Idra, Machine, Sheth
vP: Huk, Incontrol, Naniwa, Socke, Tyler, Whitera
vT: Demuslim, Jinro, TLO
Casters: Husky, JP, Tasteosis
-- The important part is the idea. Players / Logistics can be worked out later. The main point-- DAY[9] PLAYING PROS IN STARCRAFT 2!
No offence to Day9 (and I am sure he would admit this himself) but he wouldn't have a chance against any of those guys I highlighted above. They are all professional players that train for 8+ hours a day... Day9 is a caster & internet personality. Would be interesting to see him play against another caster though, like Artosis or the above. Have you ever seen him play SC2? So many people just jump to conclusions without any evidence at all. He said that he has GM with all three races, but doesn't have to time to play enough to stay in GM. You can choose not to believe him, I guess. But you really have no reason to. Also, +1 to incontrol. Please make that show match happen. I would donate for sure. Where did he bring up that he has 3 GM accounts? I don't really watch the dailies so I wouldn't know unless he said it on a cast at a live event (and that's unlikely). If he does, then great. All I really meant was, with the kind of schedule I imagine he has, it doesn't seem plausible that he would have the time to play the game that much. And yes, people do jump to conclusions, but it works both ways. The majority of his followers would try and tell me he's better than MVP if I stuck around to listen to them.
It was mentioned a few state of the games ago. D9 has GM'd every race and is a BW pro vet. He practically eat, shits and breathes SC2, playing or not, so it's fair to say firstly his mechanics would be good. Secondly he's going to be right up there on the current metagame. The only weakness in his play would be does he know the exact timings as well as a a fulltime pro. He's certainly not code s quality, but I feel he could take games off pros.
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D9 has GM'd every race and is a BW pro vet.
Show me a game where it´s clearly him playing and i believe you. Otherwise i don´t. If he really would be playing on GM Level why would he make such a secret out of it?
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On December 08 2011 08:12 bLooD. wrote:Show me a game where it´s clearly him playing and i believe you. Otherwise i don´t. If he really would be playing on GM Level why would he make such a secret out of it?
This, would like to see proof of him actually playing on GM level
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I believe he mentionned that he was GM with all three races while he was shitting his pants in Amnesia.
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...I still think Day9 was sarcastically referencing all the "hes playing against day9!" jokes that pop up in the popular streams when he said he could be GM with all races.
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Artosis is seriously wrong about mech vs Protoss.
He seems to forget how supply inefficient mech is.
Lets say you have 60 scvs, a generously low number.
Tanks cost 3 supply, hellions cost 2 and vikings cost 2 supply. In order to beat any number of void rays/carriers, you will need at least 20 Vikings. To have a single chance against zealots, you need 20 hellions. Suddenly, you are left with 60 supply, or 20 tanks.
Lots of those tanks will have to be used for base defense, because planetaries with no army support melt to Protoss armies. Suddenly, your actual army is pathetic. Artosis's argument relies on a few mis guided things:
1. If pro players tried harder, they would see he is right. His argument is on the basis that apparently mech TvT is the correct way to play but no one does it. Thtis is wrong. MVP goes mech all the time, and in GSL, mech is seen at least 30% of all TvTs. It is even seen in TvZ, with puma, MVP, happy showing how good mech can be vs Zerg. Against Protoss? No one. A general consensus amongst all Terran and Protoss pro gamers is that mech sucks. Even Goody is starting to give up on it.
2. Artosis's argument relies on the fact that a maxed mech army should be unstoppable, and that with perfect decision making, building placement and careful tank positioning, mech will lead to victory. This is not true, artosis should do some unit tests or at least 2 practice games. With 33% less Tanks, 0 spider mines, immortals, charge, and tanks being way worse than their bw counterpart, mech cannot do anything. This is not even accounting for poor mobility, terrible mid game, no pressure, and a need for excessive static defense.
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On December 08 2011 07:51 MasterKush wrote:
Show nested quote +
Where did he bring up that he has 3 GM accounts? I don't really watch the dailies so I wouldn't know unless he said it on a cast at a live event (and that's unlikely). If he does, then great. All I really meant was, with the kind of schedule I imagine he has, it doesn't seem plausible that he would have the time to play the game that much. And yes, people do jump to conclusions, but it works both ways. The majority of his followers would try and tell me he's better than MVP if I stuck around to listen to them.
It was mentioned a few state of the games ago. D9 has GM'd every race and is a BW pro vet. He practically eat, shits and breathes SC2, playing or not, so it's fair to say firstly his mechanics would be good. Secondly he's going to be right up there on the current metagame. The only weakness in his play would be does he know the exact timings as well as a a fulltime pro. He's certainly not code s quality, but I feel he could take games off pros.
Jesus christ, as per usual, faboys get red faced when somebody takes a differing opinion on their hero. Don't try and turn it into a "You just don't like Day9, stop hating!". I think Day9 is a great guy and has done a ridiculous amount for the Starcraft (BW and SC2) community.
My statement was merely: "I don't know how he can be as good as people who play 8+ hours a day, when he clearly doesn't."
I mean, how would he with all the other stuff he does!?
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argh
I've been playing a lot of tvp customs today, trying to get mech to work, and I've lost every one where the protoss didn't flat out die to the early harass (and I lost some where the protoss was essentially "dead" as well) and it got to a mid/lategame scenario. Mech is worthless.
Seeing relatively small army of chargelots, archons, stalkers and HTs a-move and then storm to death an army with 5-6 siege tanks and 3 or so banshees camped behind two bunkers with marines walled off with depots and an engie bay will seriously fuck with your head. You basically need 20 or so tanks to even trade armies, and in all likelihood you'll be dead before that anyway.
Now I feel frustrated and depressed and I blame Artosis -.-
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I love how people discoutn what Artosis says:
He is like: ¨Hey maybe mech may become useful in the future, Bio is not cutting it anymore¨
Everybody is:¨Stop theorycrafting, Mech will always be useless because *starts theorycrafting*¨
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On December 08 2011 09:16 Quotidian wrote:
argh
I've been playing a lot of tvp customs today, trying to get mech to work, and I've lost every one where the protoss didn't flat out die to the early harass (and I lost some where the protoss was essentially "dead" as well) and it got to a mid/lategame scenario. Mech is worthless.
Seeing relatively small army of chargelots, archons, stalkers and HTs a-move and then storm to death an army with 5-6 siege tanks and 3 or so banshees camped behind two bunkers with marines walled off with depots and an engie bay will seriously fuck with your head. You basically need 20 or so tanks to even trade armies, and in all likelihood you'll be dead before that anyway.
Now I feel frustrated and depressed and I blame Artosis -.-
I've been playing around with Mech a lot in TvP customs (I'm a masters zerg player) and I found it extremly viable on even level (I'd say my terran is around diamond)
I'm just expanding and sieging and cautiously trying to have as much mapcontrol with hellions as possible, not even trying to do too much damage and at some point multipronged hellion harass always seem to put enough pressure on the protoss so that he charges into my tanklines and it often comes down to me just screwing up positioning and hellion play when I lose imo...
I'm completly on this with Artosis and Day9: Mech has never been tried in TvP in high level play, but seeing Goody playing Mech vs Protoss and seeing this awesome TvP "Pure Air" Guide (masterlevel) in the strategy section, it just looks to me as if there is a lot of potential out there for it.
Noone is really saying that Mech is stronger than MMMVG or even viable in a figuered out metagame, but for me a lot of the Antimech arguments are too "practical" (Immortals and Chargelots are so good against Mech). It sounds a little bit like the times when zergs didn't build zerglings against Protoss after 8min, because they would just suck against FFs, Colossi, Storms and whatever Protoss was throwing at us in 2base vs 2base games and you couldn't afford to "waste" larva on units that couldn't help in the 1A-battle deathball vs roach+something. I feel like a big Tankline is always strategically better than a fragile, mobile force running all over the place (in the lategame), because you can create those supersafe areas, which is the most scary thing in the world for me as an opponent.
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On December 08 2011 09:47 windsupernova wrote:
I love how people discoutn what Artosis says:
He is like: ¨Hey maybe mech may become useful in the future, Bio is not cutting it anymore¨
Everybody is:¨Stop theorycrafting, Mech will always be useless because *starts theorycrafting*¨
I love how you paraphrased what he said into something reasonable. He didn't say that mech may become useful against Protoss, he said that mech is the correct way to play against Protoss and WILL be better than bio, with no evidence to back it up.
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To be fair, Artosis doesn't play Terran and he's trying to convince a bunch of Terran players that mech is viable. remember that almost every terran has tried mech at least once in their life. So it's all theorycraft from Artosis and some grounding in game knowledge from most Terrans.
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I'm going to have to agree with Artosis about mech. With SC2 exploding really fast into an incredibly competitive scene any professional player is now required to perform at their best and win games at tournaments almost every few days. A completely different playstyle would require an incredibly huge amount of games played to get figured out and to finally judge how good it is. Because of the reason stated above, no one of the top players can afford to do that without sacrificing a few events and potentially their spot on the team. However in-tune with the game and game understanding IMMVP for instance has, he can not predict about something that has never been introduced strongly in competitive play. Even in BW there are still new things that we see every once in a while even though the game is so 'figured out'.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 08 2011 07:47 4Servy wrote:
Artosis sounds like a diamond player when it comes to terran no offense meant but all that ''mech is the way crap'' is starting to get old. Most these terrans in gomtv are ex BW pros some even from the A team. They would for sure know how to play mech since it was that important in BW in tvt and tvp but the fact that they dont and go for a all in 80% of the time or some timing break on the toss 3th tells you alteast something.
Today I had some time off from uni in the morning and watched boxer vs marineking and even though undeniably boxer made alot of mistakes in game 3 it was still so obvious that even in TvT mech is just not as good. Its completly inmobile and tanks just dont lock positions down hard enough like they did in BW. Basicly mkp just amoved (hardly even maxed) up a ramp with 3/3 bio into 8+ siege tanks destroyed them all and then took out a base and everything snowballed out of ctrl.
Also with the removal of the spider mines and high damage tanks its just so hard to lock positions down or delay enemy counter attacks enough with mech. This makes thats its nigh impossible to push forward in tvt and tvp and at best you are going to get a base race situation. In tvz it kinda works because tanks on the cliff or near a PF and helion/thor reinforcements are good vs like low hp zerg units that attempt a counter attack.
BoxeR would have never ever ever lost that game if he spent some of his excess minerals on PFs or if he just fucking killed marineking after he suicided his entire army.
Mech past 2 bases vs protoss is the biggest joke of an idea ever tho.
200 supply mech just doesnt do shit to protoss and you are completely unable to spread your army because anytime you do, 2 immortals will show up and eat 6 tanks without losing their shield.
I dont even think mech is gonna be good vs protoss in the expansion, based purely on what we have seen so far.
On December 08 2011 09:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 09:16 Quotidian wrote:
argh
I've been playing a lot of tvp customs today, trying to get mech to work, and I've lost every one where the protoss didn't flat out die to the early harass (and I lost some where the protoss was essentially "dead" as well) and it got to a mid/lategame scenario. Mech is worthless.
Seeing relatively small army of chargelots, archons, stalkers and HTs a-move and then storm to death an army with 5-6 siege tanks and 3 or so banshees camped behind two bunkers with marines walled off with depots and an engie bay will seriously fuck with your head. You basically need 20 or so tanks to even trade armies, and in all likelihood you'll be dead before that anyway.
Now I feel frustrated and depressed and I blame Artosis -.- I've been playing around with Mech a lot in TvP customs (I'm a masters zerg player) and I found it extremly viable on even level (I'd say my terran is around diamond) I'm just expanding and sieging and cautiously trying to have as much mapcontrol with hellions as possible, not even trying to do too much damage and at some point multipronged hellion harass always seem to put enough pressure on the protoss so that he charges into my tanklines and it often comes down to me just screwing up positioning and hellion play when I lose imo... I'm completly on this with Artosis and Day9: Mech has never been tried in TvP in high level play, but seeing Goody playing Mech vs Protoss and seeing this awesome TvP "Pure Air" Guide (masterlevel) in the strategy section, it just looks to me as if there is a lot of potential out there for it. Noone is really saying that Mech is stronger than MMMVG or even viable in a figuered out metagame, but for me a lot of the Antimech arguments are too "practical" (Immortals and Chargelots are so good against Mech). It sounds a little bit like the times when zergs didn't build zerglings against Protoss after 8min, because they would just suck against FFs, Colossi, Storms and whatever Protoss was throwing at us in 2base vs 2base games and you couldn't afford to "waste" larva on units that couldn't help in the 1A-battle deathball vs roach+something. I feel like a big Tankline is always strategically better than a fragile, mobile force running all over the place (in the lategame), because you can create those supersafe areas, which is the most scary thing in the world for me as an opponent.
Until a single warp prism makes it into your base and you cant fend it off without sending your entire army.
Until a protoss blinks into your main and snipes every addon.
Until a protoss tech switches to carriers and then back to ground.
Until you lose a 200/200 fight and by the time he's at your front door, remaxed, your first reinforcement wave of units has not even finished.
Until a mothership recalls immortals into your main and you have to engage immortals unsieged up a ramp. (btw, if you recall over an unpassable area like water the fucking units will show up on land, if you are close enough - had that happen when I had a perfect turret ring setup and god damn HerO recalled over the water and everything ended up inside my main)
Until you realize that tanks take 11 shots to kill an archon.
Until you realize that tanks get raped by colossi unless you are maxed out.
Until you realize that there is 0 ways to kill an expansion because of how good warp in is, without commiting your entire army.
Macro mech vs protoss is bad on almost every map.
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When are you going to be on State of the Game Jinro? 
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On December 08 2011 10:32 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:47 4Servy wrote:
Artosis sounds like a diamond player when it comes to terran no offense meant but all that ''mech is the way crap'' is starting to get old. Most these terrans in gomtv are ex BW pros some even from the A team. They would for sure know how to play mech since it was that important in BW in tvt and tvp but the fact that they dont and go for a all in 80% of the time or some timing break on the toss 3th tells you alteast something.
Today I had some time off from uni in the morning and watched boxer vs marineking and even though undeniably boxer made alot of mistakes in game 3 it was still so obvious that even in TvT mech is just not as good. Its completly inmobile and tanks just dont lock positions down hard enough like they did in BW. Basicly mkp just amoved (hardly even maxed) up a ramp with 3/3 bio into 8+ siege tanks destroyed them all and then took out a base and everything snowballed out of ctrl.
Also with the removal of the spider mines and high damage tanks its just so hard to lock positions down or delay enemy counter attacks enough with mech. This makes thats its nigh impossible to push forward in tvt and tvp and at best you are going to get a base race situation. In tvz it kinda works because tanks on the cliff or near a PF and helion/thor reinforcements are good vs like low hp zerg units that attempt a counter attack. BoxeR would have never ever ever lost that game if he spent some of his excess minerals on PFs or if he just fucking killed marineking after he suicided his entire army. Mech past 2 bases vs protoss is the biggest joke of an idea ever tho. 200 supply mech just doesnt do shit to protoss and you are completely unable to spread your army because anytime you do, 2 immortals will show up and eat 6 tanks without losing their shield. I dont even think mech is gonna be good vs protoss in the expansion, based purely on what we have seen so far.
Finally. A guy that knows what the hell he's talking about! Thanks!
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Mech sucks versus Protoss. Just a straight up 200/200 vs 200/200, Protoss wins. They can rebuild faster, immortals are so good and they wil take all the bases on the map.
What is good though is blue flame hellion drops. Unless Protoss gets blink, I don't see how we can deal with it..
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EPT
