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On December 08 2011 04:30 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:24 diLLa wrote:
Although I would agree that pure mech would probably be a bad idea, I do actually see potential in a sky/mech composition, including ravens and banshees, and maybe some ghosts
You could use banshees for their dps and harassment usage, and ravens for their turrets, creating choke points to block off chargelots or seeker missile to deal with a zealot clump.
It is gas-heavy, but really strong i feel too.
Plant some missile turrets around the tanks and the zealots just cant surround you, they also deal with immortals pretty well due to their fast attack speed. This is strong against lower bases of Protoss . In the later stages this doesn't rebuild fast enough . You'll lose maybe slightly less then you would be with MMM in battles BUT it's also alot harder to replace. Banshees are pretty fragile but cost a fortune so do Ravens. MMM/Ghosts/Vikings does the job at least as well but it's better to reeinforce. Not to mention upgrades that will be hard to afford if you mix in bashees/ravens constantly. And Harrassing with Banshees well drops do the job just as well and they actually could kill a base if your lucky.
Well yeah, obviously. My thoughts are mostly how to make mech or sky/mech work, not necesarrily stating it's better than bio.
The fact of the matter is, that it would open up strategic options of people tried to make it work, in a thinking out of the box style. Playing mech approaches the game in a different way, kind of like how lots of protoss have switched from deathball creation to a more harassing style of play, using warp prisms and whatnot.
I feel that units like the banshee, reaper, raven have more potential than that is currently shown in TvP. Bio is pretty much uncovered already, and it's gotten to the point that all protoss can pretty much go blindly anti-bio build. Opening up different strats would keep the protoss honest.
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On December 08 2011 04:16 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 02:41 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:38 Asha` wrote:On December 08 2011 02:34 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:25 labbe wrote:
Man I love when Artosis is wrong. Mech is bad vs Protoss. It's so bad that even Goody has stopped meching vs toss. Now, if that's not proof of it being bad, I don't know what is. Didn't he play mech vs mana in a 1h20min game or something like that recently? Mech is good at not dying, it's not exactly good at winning. Pure mech may be bad but jjakji is doing great vs toss by mixing helions/banshees/thors in his bio vs protoss Thats great as push . As an endgame composition on 4-5 Bases with a teched out Protoss it's not. If you ever get into a big macrogames you need to go MMM/Ghost/Viking . On lower bases / lower tech there are different compositions that work really well but you either need to end the game early or transition into Bio at some point. Its just impossible to defend spread out bases with Thors/Tanks in your unit composition. The support you will have for those units will be unable to defend your bases with the slow units.
What about Her0 vs Puma in the NASL finals? There was a game where Puma did a 2 base version of the 1-1-1, with marines, siege tanks, and banshees. I realize that's not technically pure mech, but when the armies engaged at 140ish supply, Puma came out ahead. And this was against chargelot/immortal, which everyone has been saying hard counters siege tanks.
So, I'll admit that Hellions aren't really the answer vs Protoss unless you're dropping them in mineral lines, but tanks and banshees added into a more standard army mix is really strong vs Protoss. I always hear that it only works as a push, and that it gets progressively worse as the game goes on, but I've seen several games now where the 1-1-1 mix does really well vs 140+ food Protoss armies.
Lastly, I realize Her0 probably could have won that game if he delayed the engagement a little bit, but that's because he did some excellent DT shenanegains in Puma's base, and doesn't really enter into the discussion of high food Marine/Tank/Banshee being viable.
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Most units kind of have a use Reapers though i doubt they build too long and don't do well enough against anything but slow Zealots and Probes while having less HP then Marines with Combatshields ...
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On December 08 2011 04:45 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:16 s3rp wrote:On December 08 2011 02:41 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:38 Asha` wrote:On December 08 2011 02:34 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:25 labbe wrote:
Man I love when Artosis is wrong. Mech is bad vs Protoss. It's so bad that even Goody has stopped meching vs toss. Now, if that's not proof of it being bad, I don't know what is. Didn't he play mech vs mana in a 1h20min game or something like that recently? Mech is good at not dying, it's not exactly good at winning. Pure mech may be bad but jjakji is doing great vs toss by mixing helions/banshees/thors in his bio vs protoss Thats great as push . As an endgame composition on 4-5 Bases with a teched out Protoss it's not. If you ever get into a big macrogames you need to go MMM/Ghost/Viking . On lower bases / lower tech there are different compositions that work really well but you either need to end the game early or transition into Bio at some point. Its just impossible to defend spread out bases with Thors/Tanks in your unit composition. The support you will have for those units will be unable to defend your bases with the slow units. What about Her0 vs Puma in the NASL finals? There was a game where Puma did a 2 base version of the 1-1-1, with marines, siege tanks, and banshees. I realize that's not technically pure mech, but when the armies engaged at 140ish supply, Puma came out ahead. And this was against chargelot/immortal, which everyone has been saying hard counters siege tanks. So, I'll admit that Hellions aren't really the answer vs Protoss unless you're dropping them in mineral lines, but tanks and banshees added into a more standard army mix is really strong vs Protoss. I always hear that it only works as a push, and that it gets progressively worse as the game goes on, but I've seen several games now where the 1-1-1 mix does really well vs 140+ food Protoss armies. Lastly, I realize Her0 probably could have won that game if he delayed the engagement a little bit, but that's because he did some excellent DT shenanegains in Puma's base, and doesn't really enter into the discussion of high food Marine/Tank/Banshee being viable.
banshees are not mech. mech is not short for mechanical, its a term that defines unit made from factory.
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On December 08 2011 04:47 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:45 TrickyGilligan wrote:On December 08 2011 04:16 s3rp wrote:On December 08 2011 02:41 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:38 Asha` wrote:On December 08 2011 02:34 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:25 labbe wrote:
Man I love when Artosis is wrong. Mech is bad vs Protoss. It's so bad that even Goody has stopped meching vs toss. Now, if that's not proof of it being bad, I don't know what is. Didn't he play mech vs mana in a 1h20min game or something like that recently? Mech is good at not dying, it's not exactly good at winning. Pure mech may be bad but jjakji is doing great vs toss by mixing helions/banshees/thors in his bio vs protoss Thats great as push . As an endgame composition on 4-5 Bases with a teched out Protoss it's not. If you ever get into a big macrogames you need to go MMM/Ghost/Viking . On lower bases / lower tech there are different compositions that work really well but you either need to end the game early or transition into Bio at some point. Its just impossible to defend spread out bases with Thors/Tanks in your unit composition. The support you will have for those units will be unable to defend your bases with the slow units. What about Her0 vs Puma in the NASL finals? There was a game where Puma did a 2 base version of the 1-1-1, with marines, siege tanks, and banshees. I realize that's not technically pure mech, but when the armies engaged at 140ish supply, Puma came out ahead. And this was against chargelot/immortal, which everyone has been saying hard counters siege tanks. So, I'll admit that Hellions aren't really the answer vs Protoss unless you're dropping them in mineral lines, but tanks and banshees added into a more standard army mix is really strong vs Protoss. I always hear that it only works as a push, and that it gets progressively worse as the game goes on, but I've seen several games now where the 1-1-1 mix does really well vs 140+ food Protoss armies. Lastly, I realize Her0 probably could have won that game if he delayed the engagement a little bit, but that's because he did some excellent DT shenanegains in Puma's base, and doesn't really enter into the discussion of high food Marine/Tank/Banshee being viable. banshees are not mech. mech is not short for mechanical, its a term that defines unit made from factory.
Ok, so tanks aren't mech because..?
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On December 08 2011 04:45 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:16 s3rp wrote:On December 08 2011 02:41 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:38 Asha` wrote:On December 08 2011 02:34 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:25 labbe wrote:
Man I love when Artosis is wrong. Mech is bad vs Protoss. It's so bad that even Goody has stopped meching vs toss. Now, if that's not proof of it being bad, I don't know what is. Didn't he play mech vs mana in a 1h20min game or something like that recently? Mech is good at not dying, it's not exactly good at winning. Pure mech may be bad but jjakji is doing great vs toss by mixing helions/banshees/thors in his bio vs protoss Thats great as push . As an endgame composition on 4-5 Bases with a teched out Protoss it's not. If you ever get into a big macrogames you need to go MMM/Ghost/Viking . On lower bases / lower tech there are different compositions that work really well but you either need to end the game early or transition into Bio at some point. Its just impossible to defend spread out bases with Thors/Tanks in your unit composition. The support you will have for those units will be unable to defend your bases with the slow units. What about Her0 vs Puma in the NASL finals? There was a game where Puma did a 2 base version of the 1-1-1, with marines, siege tanks, and banshees. I realize that's not technically pure mech, but when the armies engaged at 140ish supply, Puma came out ahead. And this was against chargelot/immortal, which everyone has been saying hard counters siege tanks. So, I'll admit that Hellions aren't really the answer vs Protoss unless you're dropping them in mineral lines, but tanks and banshees added into a more standard army mix is really strong vs Protoss. I always hear that it only works as a push, and that it gets progressively worse as the game goes on, but I've seen several games now where the 1-1-1 mix does really well vs 140+ food Protoss armies. Lastly, I realize Her0 probably could have won that game if he delayed the engagement a little bit, but that's because he did some excellent DT shenanegains in Puma's base, and doesn't really enter into the discussion of high food Marine/Tank/Banshee being viable.
Like i said that great as a push in this case 2 Base push ( before the Toss has all his Tech ) but if you don't kill your opponent with this push you will transition into standard Bio . It's the only thing that does well enough against a reasonably well tech toss with a decent economy. This stuff in those pushes is just nothing you can play as an army composition for a 200/200 against 200/200 fight .
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On December 08 2011 04:49 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:47 iky43210 wrote:On December 08 2011 04:45 TrickyGilligan wrote:On December 08 2011 04:16 s3rp wrote:On December 08 2011 02:41 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:38 Asha` wrote:On December 08 2011 02:34 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:25 labbe wrote:
Man I love when Artosis is wrong. Mech is bad vs Protoss. It's so bad that even Goody has stopped meching vs toss. Now, if that's not proof of it being bad, I don't know what is. Didn't he play mech vs mana in a 1h20min game or something like that recently? Mech is good at not dying, it's not exactly good at winning. Pure mech may be bad but jjakji is doing great vs toss by mixing helions/banshees/thors in his bio vs protoss Thats great as push . As an endgame composition on 4-5 Bases with a teched out Protoss it's not. If you ever get into a big macrogames you need to go MMM/Ghost/Viking . On lower bases / lower tech there are different compositions that work really well but you either need to end the game early or transition into Bio at some point. Its just impossible to defend spread out bases with Thors/Tanks in your unit composition. The support you will have for those units will be unable to defend your bases with the slow units. What about Her0 vs Puma in the NASL finals? There was a game where Puma did a 2 base version of the 1-1-1, with marines, siege tanks, and banshees. I realize that's not technically pure mech, but when the armies engaged at 140ish supply, Puma came out ahead. And this was against chargelot/immortal, which everyone has been saying hard counters siege tanks. So, I'll admit that Hellions aren't really the answer vs Protoss unless you're dropping them in mineral lines, but tanks and banshees added into a more standard army mix is really strong vs Protoss. I always hear that it only works as a push, and that it gets progressively worse as the game goes on, but I've seen several games now where the 1-1-1 mix does really well vs 140+ food Protoss armies. Lastly, I realize Her0 probably could have won that game if he delayed the engagement a little bit, but that's because he did some excellent DT shenanegains in Puma's base, and doesn't really enter into the discussion of high food Marine/Tank/Banshee being viable. banshees are not mech. mech is not short for mechanical, its a term that defines unit made from factory. Ok, so tanks aren't mech because..?
I never said tanks weren't mech? 1-1-1 is not only technically not "pure mech", its barely any mech at all
not that people already known for ages that there are few strong timing pushes you can do with siege tank against protoss, but it falls off after mid game
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Hypothetically, Artosis is correct. In practice InControl is right, it's not nearly as simple.
Unfortunately, it looks like we'll never know just how viable Mech is in TvP in its current state. I could be wrong here, but I think many players would rather just wait to experiment with Mech knowing that help is coming in HOTS. Why waste time now, knowing that it will be easier later?
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On December 08 2011 04:47 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:45 TrickyGilligan wrote:On December 08 2011 04:16 s3rp wrote:On December 08 2011 02:41 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:38 Asha` wrote:On December 08 2011 02:34 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:25 labbe wrote:
Man I love when Artosis is wrong. Mech is bad vs Protoss. It's so bad that even Goody has stopped meching vs toss. Now, if that's not proof of it being bad, I don't know what is. Didn't he play mech vs mana in a 1h20min game or something like that recently? Mech is good at not dying, it's not exactly good at winning. Pure mech may be bad but jjakji is doing great vs toss by mixing helions/banshees/thors in his bio vs protoss Thats great as push . As an endgame composition on 4-5 Bases with a teched out Protoss it's not. If you ever get into a big macrogames you need to go MMM/Ghost/Viking . On lower bases / lower tech there are different compositions that work really well but you either need to end the game early or transition into Bio at some point. Its just impossible to defend spread out bases with Thors/Tanks in your unit composition. The support you will have for those units will be unable to defend your bases with the slow units. What about Her0 vs Puma in the NASL finals? There was a game where Puma did a 2 base version of the 1-1-1, with marines, siege tanks, and banshees. I realize that's not technically pure mech, but when the armies engaged at 140ish supply, Puma came out ahead. And this was against chargelot/immortal, which everyone has been saying hard counters siege tanks. So, I'll admit that Hellions aren't really the answer vs Protoss unless you're dropping them in mineral lines, but tanks and banshees added into a more standard army mix is really strong vs Protoss. I always hear that it only works as a push, and that it gets progressively worse as the game goes on, but I've seen several games now where the 1-1-1 mix does really well vs 140+ food Protoss armies. Lastly, I realize Her0 probably could have won that game if he delayed the engagement a little bit, but that's because he did some excellent DT shenanegains in Puma's base, and doesn't really enter into the discussion of high food Marine/Tank/Banshee being viable. banshees are not mech. mech is not short for mechanical, its a term that defines unit made from factory.
Dude talk about splitting hairs.
Obviously pure mech is not possible because of how shitty Factory units are against armored air or even mass Mutas if microed properly.
Mech vs any race would need to have Starport support.
That's one thing I'm glad crossed over from BW, at least Terran needs to get 3 sets of upgrades for how efficient their units are.
For that reason alone I didn't think it was absurd if Protoss Ground Weapons cost more than other races because Robotics units (which we are more likely to mass in Sc2) get the same benefits whereas Terran must pick at most 2 sets of upgrades or they wouldn't be maximizing their utility.
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Some things you can't talk about without making a fool of yourself. Theorycrafting is easy to do and usually pointless. I can say that P will use phoenix as the main unit in every matchup, and eventually I might be right, but it's just talk. There's nothing substantial behind it.
Mech in TvP beyond timing attacks has been shown at every instance to be inefficient. Maybe it's the future. Queens were used recently in Broodwar. Anything is possible. But at this point, you were doing the equivalent of solving math problems by talking about the shapes of arabic numerals.
Day9 and Artosis: If you think mech is the key, just play the damn game and be a success with it. Otherwise, defer to the player when it comes to strategy. Talk to him. Pick his brain. And if you can lead him to your way of thinking, you may be on to something. But don't flatly disagree.
RTS games are too complicated for strategies to be tested through discussion. And sometimes discussion between a higher level player and lower level player is pointless, because the two people are playing different games. That's how I felt listening to the conversation. For example, going phoenix midgame PvT (instead of going a stargate opener, you get an expo and a robo before) make some sense on first glance, but if you play the game at even a reasonable level, you would understand why that is not a solid tech tree to start down on at that point. Still, imagine if a bronze level player kept repeating that they would be great to shut down midgame drops.
I liked the show quite a bit, and I enjoy listening to everyone on it!
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damn what is artosis thinking? I mean really... mech sucks so much tvp its not even funny. 3-3 zealots actually beat 1-1 blueflame hellions so hard with some spreading and if you by some miracle actually trade even they remax in 2sec.
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On December 08 2011 04:57 -_- wrote:
Some things you can't talk about without making a fool of yourself. Theorycrafting is easy to do and usually pointless. I can say that P will use phoenix as the main unit in every matchup, and eventually I might be right, but it's just talk. There's nothing substantial behind it.
Mech in TvP beyond timing attacks has been shown at every instance to be inefficient. Maybe it's the future. Queens were used recently in Broodwar. Anything is possible. But at this point, you were doing the equivalent of solving math problems by talking about the shapes of arabic numerals.
Day9 and Artosis: If you think mech is the key, just play the damn game and be a success with it. Otherwise, defer to the player when it comes to strategy. Talk to him. Pick his brain. And if you can lead him to your way of thinking, you may be on to something. But don't flatly disagree.
RTS games are too complicated for strategies to be tested through discussion. And sometimes discussion between a higher level player and lower level player is pointless, because the two people are playing different games. That's how I felt listening to the conversation. For example, going phoenix midgame PvT (instead of going a stargate opener, you get an expo and a robo before) make some sense on first glance, but if you play the game at even a reasonable level, you would understand why that is not a solid tech tree to start down on at that point. Still, imagine if a bronze level player kept repeating that they would be great to shut down midgame drops.
I liked the show quite a bit, and I enjoy listening to everyone on it!
I agree with this bolded part very very very much.
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On December 08 2011 04:52 QTIP. wrote:
Hypothetically, Artosis is correct. In practice InControl is right, it's not nearly as simple.
Unfortunately, it looks like we'll never know just how viable Mech is in TvP in its current state. I could be wrong here, but I think many players would rather just wait to experiment with Mech knowing that help is coming in HOTS. Why waste time now, knowing that it will be easier later?
You don't play terran do you?
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I think the main problem is people thinking that "going mech" means exclusively hellions/tanks/thors. Obviously that would not work in this game against protoss. Mech meant vultures/tanks/goliaths in BW, but this is SC2, and thors are definitely not going to go toe-to-toe with every air unit for cost. (Maybe mech will be more viable when the warhound (goliath) is added in HotS. However, at the moment, terrans have the longest range and cheapest air to air fighter in the game (viking). Using this with the longest range ground to ground unit in the game (tank), with hellions to kite zealots with splash, could very possibly create a powerful strategy against toss. And of course you would need to add in some ghosts because they are never bad to have.
The question is whether this strategy of hellion/tank+viking+ghost would be more effective than just going mmm+viking+ghost. The early game potency of mmm is just so good that doing anything else to start the game would almost be foolish. I assume Terrans are happy that they are not confined to their bases until their first tank pops like they often were in BW. And because bio doesn't share upgrades with mech, once bio starts kicking, the terran doesn't want to transition.
If someone can prove that it is much more beneficial to use something besides bio in the late game, then terrans would have some incentive to try switching over into it. That would be very interesting.
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From my understanding, they weren't contradicting each other so much as not understanding each other.
Artosis says that mech should be good TvP because Goody seems to do well with it even though he makes awful decisions.
Incontrol said essentially mech will never work TvP
Artosis argued that if highly skilled players tried it, it could work.
Incontrol argued that they don't use it *because* it will never work
Artosis argued that just because they don't use it, doesn't mean it will never work. He cited mech TvT as an example, wherein it has been showed to work, but still no one highly-skilled uses it.
It's here that the argument broke down because they misunderstood each other:
Artosis believed Incontrol was arguing that none of them using it is evidence it can't work.
Incontrol didn't understand (that/why) Artosis was talking about mech in TvT when the original argument was about TvP
I personally am awful at bio TvP mid-game or later, so I do go mech and do ok. I am only diamond level however, so my opinion on the argument shouldn't be weighted. I only say this to clarify that the debate didn't have a winner or loser, but rather just went off-track.
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There's no way Mech can work vs Protoss right now, the reason nobody kept trying it is because it's awful.
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Not even covering WCG groups during this SOTG? JP sure knows a lot about e-sports...
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Mix in some ghosts, EMP the Immortals and watch them melt.
Not pure mech but certainly not bio
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On December 08 2011 05:19 Fig wrote:
I think the main problem is people thinking that "going mech" means exclusively hellions/tanks/thors.
The broadest definition of "going mech," at least in terms of a macro game, has to be that you're favoring factory upgrades, and your main unit production is coming from factories. Whatever else you add to the composition is basically beside the point, although it is interesting to note that most of the successful mech games win because of things like banshee harass, hellion run-bys, etc and the actual big army confrontation is usually a formality at that point. So it's probably safe to speculate that what makes mech "successful" is the units you get in addition to it, and not mech itself. So why go mech?
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Watching the strategy statement I kind of wish they'd get some successful progamers on the show. Maybe Gatored or someone would fit?
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EPT
