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ondik
Czech Republic2908 Posts
On December 08 2011 02:25 labbe wrote: Man I love when Artosis is wrong. Mech is bad vs Protoss. It's so bad that even Goody has stopped meching vs toss. Now, if that's not proof of it being bad, I don't know what is. So what is he doing against toss? I honestly can't imagine him microing mmm ball. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 08 2011 02:38 Asha` wrote: Mech is good at not dying, it's not exactly good at winning. Not dying is pretty awesome. And some mech units are terrifying. I don't know, but I think mech is worth looking into against protoss. There is so little information from great players on the style. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 08 2011 02:49 ondik wrote: So what is he doing against toss? I honestly can't imagine him microing mmm ball. I've seen him do MMM a few times, he's not that great with it but getting there I guess. Anyway, what comes to mech in TvP, I can guarantee you that nobody will be able to "figure it out" like Artosis says before HOTS comes out, so I think he won't be proven wrong either. HOTS itself seems to be aiming to make mech a lot more viable with all the new terran units being factory units, so that will certainly change the match-up in one way or another. | ||
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GMonster
686 Posts
On December 08 2011 02:51 Plansix wrote: Not dying is pretty awesome. And some mech units are terrifying. I don't know, but I think mech is worth looking into against protoss. There is so little information from great players on the style. NO the reason their is no INFORMATION is because people have tried it and it sucks. Its made a few game appearances where its ALL lost. Goody's record is god awful. Honestly i dont get how people dont see how Charge/Blink hardcounters mech so fucking well. And thats not even collosis/immortals thrown in + warpin. | ||
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LambtrOn
United States671 Posts
On December 08 2011 02:34 Hnnngg wrote: It's a joke I swear. People like to listen to him, he's testing us to see how outrageous of a statement we will believe. Or he's actually insane and he needs Tasteless to take care of him and take the crazy down a notch everyday. I see what you did there. And yes, i also agree with incontrol. Overall, I thought it was a really great episode with lots and lots of great discussion. | ||
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DrPandaPhD
5188 Posts
Really enjoying the show, keep it up  | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On December 08 2011 01:58 chaynesore wrote: Sure let's write it off because one player lost one far and away game doing the uncommon strategy. Guess what, MVP still drops games going bio -- and that's something he's well practised at. What's your point? Has he been using lategame mech in tvp at all since then? No? It's obvious that he abandoned the build for a reason, and you can bet that he had been using mech in practice games before and after that GSL loss. MVP does some nice expo into tank contain strats, but there are very good reasons why he doesn't play lategame mech - it has nothing to do with mech being more "difficult." In a game where he gets the production infrastructure to set up a siege tank contain, of course he'd keep on pumping tanks all game long if it actually worked. Guess what - it doesn't. Playing mech for someone like MVP isn't difficult. If mech actually worked he could transfer over the skills he has from playing tvt mech, since in theory playing mech vs bio/bio-tank would be pretty similar to playing vs protoss. I still don't understand how people are not able to conceive that doing what has been established as a popular playstyle (bio) is easier and more reliable than trying new styles (mech). And I still don't understand why some people aren't able to conceive that there are reasons relating to how the game is designed that explains why mech doesn't work. Things like the damage modifier on the siege tanks in relation to chargelots, things like the BF nerf, the immortal buff - or just the immortal in general. Mass warpgate remax, how protoss has a siege tank that can shoot without siegeing up and can walk up and down cliffs. How tanks don't do full damage to archons, which means protoss effectively has another unit in addition to the immortal to absorb tank volleys. And just protoss mobility in general. There is little incentive and very high risk for a pro to spend time on it - nobody's blaming them for it High level terran players HAVE spent time on it. Thorzain has, MVP has, Jinro.. etc. Probably more people than you'd ever imagine. But there's no point arguing about it at this stage because players aren't trying to make it work and people are just gonna keep throwing hardcounters and fictional scenarios around in a never-ending circlejerk I don't get how people can say that pros aren't or haven't been trying to make mech work. Terrans would LOVE a good alternative to bio. The reason you don't see much tvp mech in tournaments is probably because the terran pros have found out in practice games how sub-optimal mech really is. Artosis is not saying that Mech is definitely the future vs. P. Just that it MIGHT have more of a place than people realise at present. Why is it so hard for people to wrap their heads around that, and why do people get so defensive about their understanding of the game. The fact that he is saying anything about tvp mech with the kind of self-righteous certainty that he displayed on this episode is what is bothering me. Also, your entire whinge about TvT mech is irrelevant and out of place. I don't accept your opinion for reasons other than this, but I must also point out that you can't compare your Platinum level Mech TvT games to those in the GSL :\ How is it irrelevant? Artosis is trying to paint the picture that no one - ever - goes mech in tvt, but even just in today's GSL Boxer and Marineking played mech vs mech in one game. I really don't understand why Artosis is doing this though.. it feels like he's trying to tout some kind of elitistic insider knowledge of the game for no good reason, when it's clear that he actually doesn't know that much about how terran works in terms of first hand knowledge (in SC2). It would be really interesting to hear his opinion about Thorzain saying his "vs mech" is his best match up. I'm betting he'd disregard/ridicule the stament without giving it a second thought. The reason I mentioned me playing mech in plat is to underline that it isn't fundamentally hard. I play mech vs counterattacking bio players all the time, and tvt is by far my best match up. If bio is inherently so much easier, they should be steamrolling me every time. I doubt Artosis is reading this or that he even cares what I have to say beyond some kind of basic impulse to ridicule, but he really should switch to terran for a few months so that he can get a better picture of how terran works in SC2 compared to BW. They are not the same beasts at all. | ||
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redbrain
Northern Ireland117 Posts
Here are a few tricky senarious you will face: 1 - Zealot collsosus 2 - Wierd early 2 base voidray all in 3 - 2 base zealot immortal all in (if you dont tech to ghost for emp you loose) but if you sac too many untis you loose 4 - drops because of warp in are stupidly powerful. 5 - helions are actually terrible against speed zealots 6 - vikings and thors are terrible terrible anti air you cant just go thor as a response to anything and with vikings you need a strong count of them 7 - siege tanks are terrible vs collosus they are so strong vs tanks 8 - carriars are very very powerful because you have to sac so many ground units to get an anti air force then they just make zealots and win 9 - if you loose anything you loose the game 10 - the maps dont really work for mech late game because they are so easy to flank on you cant use bridges or high ground that much much like BW 11 - tanks do much much less dmg compared to BW 12 - Tanks are terrible compared to BW 13 - zealot bombs rape or even immortal drops rape 14 - warpin rapes 15 - even if you get to late game with upgrades and no haras dmg you wont trade effecrively vs the Toss. The toss can crush the mech army very easily even if you have good positionion and macro/upgrade advantages I would _love_ if i could go mech vs protoss but right now you just cant and on paper theory wise it should work but if you cant _crush_ the protoss army in a good enagement with mech then there is no point going mech thats the whole point The biggest problem of all is with mech you _CANT_ move out at all untill your nearly maxed and this is so imprtant because its the reason protss cant just stop everything and go carriar much like BW | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
Almost every unit in the protoss army is good against mech. Simple zealot immortal tears destroys huge numbers of tanks. Blue flame hellion buffer does not help. Chargelots are good against blue flame hellions and you can't commit to much supply to hellions when you still need to make crit mass of tanks and apparantly your making banshees and vikings as well. (if you don't make vikings your entire banshee army will die to any small air switch) So obviously you need to add ghosts, issue with this is that the emp nerf made it so you can only hit at most 2 immortals per emp so your gonna need alot of ghosts...how can you afford the food for ghosts/vikings/hellions/tons of tanks just to counter immortal zealot and some scattering of air units? The arguments that they were making that you just need to like add in some banshees or somthing are nonsensical. That would just weaken your ground army, so when the zealot immortal force tears your entire tank army to bits, and you have like 6 banshees slowly doing 5 damage at a time, then the protoss just warps in 20 stalkers and you lose. Awesome plan Artosis. Biggest problem is that tanks just suck against toss. Archons and immortals both take so little damage from tanks, both are huge units that take minimal splash, zealots spread themselves out automatically and they also are light so tanks arent that good against them. Tanks are basically only good against stalkers and sentries, both of which are totally unncessary to the protoss army. | ||
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Termit
Sweden3466 Posts
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thirnaz
Sweden876 Posts
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
Its not about the difficulty, its about the actual mech units that are countered by the protoss units and army compositions. Artosis and day9 are just theory crafting so hard that it looks silly. | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 08 2011 03:41 Senx wrote: Artosis and day9 are just theory crafting so that it looks silly. The weird about their theorycrafting to me is that they aren't really theorycrafting at a deeper level at all. Basically Artosis just says that the marine isn't the best unit in the game, the tank is - but doesn't actually go into detail how tanks would function against a protoss army. The cruel matter of the fact is that almost all protoss units can work as counters against mech play. Even the most basic most massable units like stalkers and zealots do a decent job once you have blink and charge. Immortals and colossi both do a great job against mech. Hell, protoss can even go air of all things and come out ahead if the terran hasn't prebuilt enough vikings, lift tanks with phoenixes or go VR, spread them out and just focus fire the thors. Simply put: to go mech is completely illogical when protoss has such strong counters to it, especially when you have a much more robust alternative in MMM. Even the patching progress so far has only discouraged mech play further. Tanks, thors and hellions have all been nerfed in a way that greatly affects TvP mech play, while protoss has gotten crucial buffs against any possible mech builds with the immortal buff among other things. Artosis uses the Thorzain thor/hellion builds in TSL3 as an example of how mech can viable, but fails to acknowledge the fact that hellions did more damage back then, thors could use strike cannons and couldn't be feedbacked and immortals had one less range. Basically mech was a completely different beast back then. | ||
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Bourne
United Kingdom152 Posts
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On December 08 2011 02:41 pPingu wrote: Pure mech may be bad but jjakji is doing great vs toss by mixing helions/banshees/thors in his bio vs protoss Thats great as push . As an endgame composition on 4-5 Bases with a teched out Protoss it's not. If you ever get into a big macrogames you need to go MMM/Ghost/Viking . On lower bases / lower tech there are different compositions that work really well but you either need to end the game early or transition into Bio at some point. Its just impossible to defend spread out bases with Thors/Tanks in your unit composition. The support you will have for those units will be unable to defend your bases with the slow units. | ||
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diLLa
Netherlands247 Posts
You could use banshees for their dps and harassment usage, and ravens for their turrets, creating choke points to block off chargelots or seeker missile to deal with a zealot clump. It is gas-heavy, but really strong i feel too. Plant some missile turrets around the tanks and the zealots just cant surround you, they also deal with immortals pretty well due to their fast attack speed. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On December 08 2011 04:24 diLLa wrote: Although I would agree that pure mech would probably be a bad idea, I do actually see potential in a sky/mech composition, including ravens and banshees, and maybe some ghosts You could use banshees for their dps and harassment usage, and ravens for their turrets, creating choke points to block off chargelots or seeker missile to deal with a zealot clump. It is gas-heavy, but really strong i feel too. Plant some missile turrets around the tanks and the zealots just cant surround you, they also deal with immortals pretty well due to their fast attack speed. This is strong against lower bases of Protoss . In the later stages this doesn't rebuild fast enough . You'll lose maybe slightly less then you would be with MMM in battles BUT it's also alot harder to replace. Banshees are pretty fragile but cost a fortune so do Ravens. MMM/Ghosts/Vikings does the job at least as well but it's better to reeinforce. Not to mention upgrades that will be hard to afford if you mix in bashees/ravens constantly. And Harrassing with Banshees well drops do the job just as well and they actually could kill a base if your lucky. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
i think people need to realize that "mech (or marine+mech)" timing pushes exist (byun's build, marine tank banshee on 2base, 2/2/2 on 2base with thors and banshees) but playing mech on 3+ base is pretty much impossible (maybe too strong word but still) | ||
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