EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 1861
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Percutio
United States1672 Posts
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
1) Chargelots. You get one volley to stop the chargelots from getting in there and once they do get in they aren't going anywhere. Once chargelots get wrapped around an army the tanks are now splashing friendlies and the hellions now have terrible arcs. Ditto for Immortals. Remember that you can almost never blanket a Protoss army in EMP's neither so that's fun. 2) 8 bases. Mech can probably get 3 bases easily. I hardly see them being allowed to take a 4th. On the other hand, Protoss can expand freely and get tons of Gas. They can defend hellions super easily with cannons and banshees super easily with cannons and maybe a stalker or two if needs be. 3) Colossus. remember trying to move a 2 base mech push in BW TvP against someone with a Shuttle Reaver and could micro that shit really well? Pretty painful. Imagine that except the control is really good by default because fuck Colossus. I remember months ago trying to use Tanks in TvP instead of vikings. I didn't like how vikings were only good against colossus and shit aginst everything else and in theory tanks are really good against colossus and not entirely shit vs everything else. Result? A colossus attacking at 9 range is very hard to kill with tanks. Especially since you cannot move the tanks. Pushes can get bogged down by colossus that fire a few shots and then back up once it starts to look a bit hairy before the Protoss warps in another wave of bloody chargelots. So back I go to Vikings, because at least they actually kill colossus. A silly Protoss will lose his colossus to tanks and when that happened I looked super smart (to myself at least) for going tanks but there's no reason why Protoss should be losing colossus to tanks. 5) I'd imagine carrier and/or mothership transitions are also really strong too. Don't have the practice with this at all, but there can be counters that look good on paper at least. 1) Use Hellions to block Zealots. Use Seeker Missile to do damage to clumped up chargelots. Preventing a Raven from being feedbacked can't be impossible. 2) 4 Banshees can kill a Nexus so fast. Late game you can also nuke the hell out the probe line. 3) Scan, kill obs with vikings, own collosus with cloacked banshees. Or even the way it's handled right now with pure vikings. 4) (5) in your case) Why would carriers start working suddently? Or Mothership? I think terrans will be forced to experiment with mech anyway since bio will die slowly. Protoss fights with the whole arsenal agains a ball of tier 2 units. And about the warpprism warping in the main in BW arbiters could recall a lot more units in one go but terrans still managed to handle it. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
Artosis is way off the mark on this one, and it's really weird that he doesn't understand why. The list of reasons why mech doesn't work in tvp is pretty established at this point (Day9 mentioning the instant chargelot mass warpgate remax is just one of them), maybe Artosis should slum more on the strategy forums, even though that is probably beneath him. Or switch to terran for a few months and try it himself. He'll really quickly change his tune-- like pretty much instantly. And how can he claim that no one plays mech tvt and that it is so insanely hard. I play mech to with pretty good results on the ladder, and I'm platinum -- and a lot of the terrans I play against also play mech. It's pretty common right now, almost standard. And in virtually every tvt series in the GSL, you'll see at least one mech game. Mech is common, and it's not that difficult. | ||
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Percutio
United States1672 Posts
On December 07 2011 23:29 ceaRshaf wrote: And about the warpprism warping in the main in BW arbiters could recall a lot more units in one go but terrans still managed to handle it. Recall came much later, was more expensive to get out, and couldn't be used as frequently. It was also stopped with EMP and good spider mine placement. As similar as it sounds, it is far and away not the same thing. | ||
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CursedRich
United Kingdom737 Posts
It so simple that it astounds me personally. If anyone can give me just as strong reasons why this viewpoint is wrong then fair enough. Plus yes some of us paid for this not expecting there be no chance of watching the final live. We know that GSL has other commercial and timezone reasons so its not a valid point to compare the 2. | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On December 07 2011 23:41 Percutio wrote: Recall came much later, was more expensive to get out, and couldn't be used as frequently. It was also stopped with EMP and good spider mine placement. As similar as it sounds, it is far and away not the same thing. But if you react fast you can snipe the prism with 2 vikings before it can spawn the 1st wave. It's the same as protoss players try to feedback drops fast enough. | ||
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
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Percutio
United States1672 Posts
On December 07 2011 23:48 ceaRshaf wrote: But if you react fast you can snipe the prism with 2 vikings before it can spawn the 1st wave. It's the same as protoss players try to feedback drops fast enough. Yeah, you would have to stop it all game which is just very tough, but doable. | ||
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robih
Austria1085 Posts
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
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Darksteel
Finland319 Posts
Like the ling-infestor style. Destiny worked with it for months and crushed some prominent korean opponents and after that other pros picked up that style, resulting in repeated nerfs. Goody plays good Mech style, but his macro is really bad at times. He would have won a lot more stuff if he wouldn't have full queues at 6-10 factories when not maxed. So if noone else starts to develop Mech, I hope Goody will get twice as fast during december break ! | ||
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rawrss
Canada29 Posts
In a 200 v 200 battle, couldn't a Mothership vortex conceivably disrupt that Terran composition? I've seen much more examples of Mothership being used vs. Z (Kiwkaki, Hero, etc), but not too many on T. True, there is a huge EMP risk, but if you can get in with enough "buffer" forces to get your Mothership in place, it should be feasible. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On December 08 2011 01:04 Darksteel wrote: Like the ling-infestor style. Destiny worked with it for months and crushed some prominent korean opponents and after that other pros picked up that style, resulting in repeated nerfs. Goody plays good Mech style, but his macro is really bad at times. He would have won a lot more stuff if he wouldn't have full queues at 6-10 factories when not maxed. So if noone else starts to develop Mech, I hope Goody will get twice as fast during december break ! Destiny was winning because infestors were way too strong and were consequently nerfed and Goody has officially abandoned mech in tvp, because it does not work. Again, I think it's crazy that Artosis is doing the whole protoss forumite "durr go mech" thing. I really thought he knew more about all the match ups than that. It's pretty obvious that Incontrol is the only one who's been in a real pro player environment where they have been discussing and trying out these things. Artosis is just theorycrafting. | ||
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scudst0rm
Canada1149 Posts
On December 08 2011 01:07 rawrss wrote: Re: T's Mech vs. P debate last night... In a 200 v 200 battle, couldn't a Mothership vortex conceivably disrupt that Terran composition? I've seen much more examples of Mothership being used vs. Z (Kiwkaki, Hero, etc), but not too many on T. True, there is a huge EMP risk, but if you can get in with enough "buffer" forces to get your Mothership in place, it should be feasible. I think its the fact that at 200/200 terran will have lots of ghosts (looking to emp before the engagement) and vikings. It makes a mothership play way too risky. | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
1) The army is very immobile, and in the current metagame the mobility of Protoss tier 1 units makes it very difficult to have such an army because until roughly the 20-25 minute mark (when the Terran can be on 3 or 4 bases, depending upon the map) they have to be very passive. The Warp Prism (especially with the Speed upgrade) also poses a problem in the mid-game because Protoss units (especially zealot/Chargelot harass) in general can decimate a worker line very quickly. 2) Protoss has several hard counters - either from a straight up fight or due to cost-effectiveness - to a siege tank line. Chargelots can be used to kill the line, Immortals up front to tank the initial shots due to Hardened Shield (and massive damage per shot fired to armored units), a large enough flock of Phoenixes can lift the tanks up (which un-sieges them in the process) and shoots them down, and with proper micro Colossus can out-range and do splash damage to the corners of siege tank lines, softening them up for the 3) Terran surrenders map control to the Protoss, allowing them free reign to expand and get up a ton of production facilities. Even if the Protoss is only mining minerals at 2 or 2.5 bases, the ability to get 3-5 gas geysers fully saturated and mining will give a Protoss a HUGE tech boost with upgrades. And once armies hit max supply the Protoss is free to make extra Warp Gates, so even if its not cost effective for the Protoss to break the siege tank line, the moment they do they can re-max with upgraded warp gate units and swarm in before the Terran has enough time to get defenses up. But, to play devil's advocate, there are some great options available to Terran to try and counter the above reasons: 1) Sensor Towers placed at strategic points on the map can effectively shut down any sort of Warp Prism harass, and Missile Turrets placed around each base can stall a drop in the mean time. Terran also has the Hi-Sec Auto Tracking, which gives Missile Turrets and Planetary fortresses an extra range of attack. That can mean the difference between almost killing a Warp Prism full of Zealots and killing it, making the drop a waste of 600 minerals. 2) Marauders with Concussive Shell slow down Chargelots enough to give the siege tanks another shot or two before they get into friendly fire range. Ghosts with EMP are still important: A spell that can eliminate all energy and do 100 damage to Shields means the Immortal loses its Hardened Shield passive bonus, and without that they die quite quickly to siege tank fire. Missile Turrets placed around the tank line can stop Phoenix harass, and 6-10 Vikings can still at most 2-shot Colossus. 3) Drop harass as Mech will stop a Protoss from expanding. Sound counter-intuitive? Not really. The Thor's 250mm Strike Cannon can literally 4-shot a Nexus. And if the Protoss is defending their base with cannons and Blink Stalkers then it means their army isn't defending the siege tank line, so begin the slow, methodical march up to the Protoss' front door with your tank line. Is Mech difficult? Yeah; the army composition has to be VERY precise. Let's assume for a moment that you only have ~130 supply to play with for your Terran Army composition (the rest being tied up in workers to fully saturate 3 or 4 bases). To me, the ideal army composition for mech play would be 14 Siege Tanks (42 supply), 10 Vikings (20 supply), 4 Thors (24 supply), 6 Medivacs (12 supply), 10 Marauders (20 supply), and 6 Ghosts (12 supply). It's slow to build up to as well, requiring a lot of tech paths to go and a ton of gas. But if you transition slowly into the Mech play from bio play, it could prove to be a tech switch the Protoss isn't expecting, and enough of a shock to let you get a win. | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
Who said he wasn't. If anyone told some months ago that infestors are the shit and people should start using them there would have been 1000 people saying that "There are 100 counters to infestors and pros don't do them so let's see you win a GSL using infestors until then STFU" | ||
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RastaMonsta
304 Posts
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GMonster
686 Posts
Also we saw it in GSL team league MC vs HanniblePrime or HannablePrime. Where MC was down 60 food against a mech army and just a moved into his main. avoided the army and warped in. THis was Pre infernal ignite nerf. EDIT: we have the most innovating players playing Terran. Boxer for one WHO PLAYED TERRAN in bw. You guys don't think he said "oh well i guess ill try Mech vs Protoss because it worked in bw." Its been tried, It doesnt work. Even Jinro said "Mech doesn't work against someone who ACTUALLY knows how to play." Honestly the people who agree with Artosis are just going off blind faith, every terran will tell you that they've tried Mech vs Protoss. It isn't viable. I've actually told Geoff on skype at least twice to tell Artosis it can't work. Don't get me wrong i LOVE artosis, and have a lot of respect for him. 99% of the time hes right. But this is the 1% of time where he is absolutely 100% wrong. | ||
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bLah.
Croatia497 Posts
1. thing it was pretty funny how he said tanks/vikings/banshees and then some hellion to buffer. I mean how much supply of tanks can you get if you make vikings/banshees/hellions. In that case your tank number will be so low that you don't have critical mass and zealots just decimate tanks. 2. thing which was funny when he said about TvT: "Is someone gonna argue with me that mech isn't strongest?" -this was so funny because he always talks about MVP and his style of mech which is ironic because MVP said that he thinks that bio-bio mech will be stronger and that he wins with mech just because he makes a lot less mistakes than others. 1 more thing about day9 and artosis saying that mech isn't explored. Are you serious? When did everyone forget about Thorzain in TSL? He smashed protoss players with mech and then bunch of players were trying the same thing and then it just died because toss players figured it out and no one could win with it. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On December 08 2011 01:35 bLah. wrote: lol @Artosis with mech. 1. thing it was pretty funny how he said tanks/vikings/banshees and then some hellion to buffer. I mean how much supply of tanks can you get if you make vikings/banshees/hellions. In that case your tank number will be so low that you don't have critical mass and zealots just decimate tanks. 2. thing which was funny when he said about TvT: "Is someone gonna argue with me that mech isn't strongest?" -this was so funny because he always talks about MVP and his style of mech which is ironic because MVP said that he thinks that bio-bio mech will be stronger and that he wins with mech just because he makes a lot less mistakes than others. thorzain even describes his vs mech as his "best matchup" Blizzard have been actively balancing the match up so that mech isn't the only/best way to play, hence the hellion nerf. Artosis is wrong, plain and simple. | ||
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