EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 1860
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Qibla
Australia343 Posts
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
On December 07 2011 18:32 chaynesore wrote: Way too ambitious... And the Deezer/CombatEx thing is an odd idea. I wouldn't think anybody wants to see that :\ . You would be suprised how many people would love too see that -,-' as someone mention above, they get enough attention as it is | ||
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AnalThermometer
Vatican City State334 Posts
On December 07 2011 20:07 MCDayC wrote: Even Goody admits that mech doesn't work TvP. Immortals, Chargelots, Phoenix, Voids, Carriers. Almost every unit bar non-blink stalkers is good against mech. Yeah, but even when Goody was making mech work Terrans didn't really take after him much. Guy made it to and performed in TSL and gets pretty much ignored because of lol apm. | ||
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flodeskum
Iceland1267 Posts
On December 07 2011 15:42 GeorgeForeman wrote: I feel like Artosis's entire argument is predicated on the idea that Goody is horrible but still has marginal success. Therefore, Mech must be better than we think. I find that very amusing. :-) That's basically the reason I play mech tvt and sometimes tvp (when I don't mind losing). | ||
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Weemoed
Netherlands741 Posts
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skipgamer
Australia701 Posts
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DR.Ham
Netherlands621 Posts
I find Artosis's belief that Mech is the correct and better way to play TvP to be quite frankly ridiculous, especially as he literally has no evidence to back it up. Then compounding it by saying that it's just not used because bio is easier, is really self serving. It means that if a viable Mech build comes along, he can point to it and say he was right, if one doesn't, he can just say that people aren't trying hard enough because bio is "easier". | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
By the way, show will never hit 30-40k LIVE viewers with this scheduling! BOOM i went there!  | ||
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mcmartini
Australia1972 Posts
On December 07 2011 18:32 chaynesore wrote: Way too ambitious... And the Deezer/CombatEx thing is an odd idea. I wouldn't think anybody wants to see that :\ Also though, why are people so defensive about the Mech v. P discussion? It is arguable that it has not been fully explored. Just open your minds to it maybe having its place in the matchup in the future as players get better and work things out. No need to be a dick about it. I think you can stick with mech for a bit but all Tier 3 mech gets smacked around by feedback. Thors, Battle Cruisers, Ravens and Banshees take way too much damage. | ||
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MjoLniRXx
United States84 Posts
On December 07 2011 21:52 DR.Ham wrote: Regarding the Mech in TvP argument, I think that there will be viable Mech builds found eventually, and that they may be as good as the bio builds we currently see. I find Artosis's belief that Mech is the correct and better way to play TvP to be quite frankly ridiculous, especially as he literally has no evidence to back it up. Then compounding it by saying that it's just not used because bio is easier, is really self serving. It means that if a viable Mech build comes along, he can point to it and say he was right, if one doesn't, he can just say that people aren't trying hard enough because bio is "easier". I thought he had this belief because Mech was the way TvP was played in Brood War? Or am I just a crazy person?  | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
The last few patches seemed to be the nail in the coffin for mech in TvP, buffing Archons and Immortals nerfing hellions and thors, before that it was arguably decent on some maps. Vultures were so much better than hellions in TvP imo that is the real problem for mech even blizzard has said that hellions dont cut it against chargelots and they are just horrible against stalkers, immortals, archons etc. | ||
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
But currently we put mech in this little box of conditions, and when you add all of them together, it's immediately obviously terrible against protoss. note i didn't say mech is terrible against protoss. I said, when i say "well if i make seige tanks i obviously have to have amazing engagements and need to position perfectly and need to be seiged up because that's obviously the only reason you make seige tanks", and "well i'm going mech so i can't do _______ because im going mech" and "if i go mech i need THIS unit composition obviously", combined with the fact that mech really DOES put more value in each individual unit than bio (because you can't quickly replenish)...duh mech's not working. Beyond the fact that people aren't even trying it because of what I just said and that bio just...gets the job done anway. Sure there's probably some pro's that have tried mech in practice and decided it's not worth it. It's easier and simpler to just do what's simplest. Not "easiest". But least complex. That's why we have a "metagame" to begin with. Collectively making builds and following trends is much much much simpler and easier than all having to have a high amount of fluid creativity and scout and react accordingly and do all this and that and work on new weird things. It's why we get ignorant statements like, "oh tvt is pretty much worked out." A joke? the main issue isn't that mech doesn't work; the issue is that people aren't working mech. | ||
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purpose
Sweden1017 Posts
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mazwoo
Germany12 Posts
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Krallman
Sweden713 Posts
Right now it starts like 5 in the morning ^^ | ||
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Asha
United Kingdom38256 Posts
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pPingu
Switzerland2892 Posts
On December 07 2011 22:10 MjoLniRXx wrote: I thought he had this belief because Mech was the way TvP was played in Brood War? Or am I just a crazy person? Yes, terran played mech in tvp. Then blizzard created the marauder. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
I'm not going to say Mech is impossible in TvP for impossible is too strong a word. But the likelihood of it working once a lot of Terrans really start experimenting and figuring it out is low. And on paper it doesn't make sense to play Mech over the regular Bio styles. EMP, Thors (they have energy so they can be feedbacked so I count that as a nerf!) and blue flame have all been nerfed recently, and immortals and warp prisms (also upgrades too but that's less of a deal) have all been buffed. Why would you want to try a strategy that has already been positioned poorly! That makes no sense! To me, Tanks in TvP are like Roaches in ZvT (assuming terran is playing marine/tank like a normal person). Great for early aggression builds but kinda jank as something to base a long term strategy around. Some Zergs do and some even have success with it but it's weird. Before Protoss has Chargelots or too much gas Tanks are great. Siege 'em up outside a Protoss base and when the Protoss goes in they do terrible, terrible damage to all the gateway units, mainly the Stalkers and Sentries in the back. Great. Love it. However, try and get mech to work against: 1) Chargelots. You get one volley to stop the chargelots from getting in there and once they do get in they aren't going anywhere. Once chargelots get wrapped around an army the tanks are now splashing friendlies and the hellions now have terrible arcs. Ditto for Immortals. Remember that you can almost never blanket a Protoss army in EMP's neither so that's fun. 2) 8 bases. Mech can probably get 3 bases easily. I hardly see them being allowed to take a 4th. On the other hand, Protoss can expand freely and get tons of Gas. They can defend hellions super easily with cannons and banshees super easily with cannons and maybe a stalker or two if needs be. 3) Colossus. remember trying to move a 2 base mech push in BW TvP against someone with a Shuttle Reaver and could micro that shit really well? Pretty painful. Imagine that except the control is really good by default because fuck Colossus. I remember months ago trying to use Tanks in TvP instead of vikings. I didn't like how vikings were only good against colossus and shit aginst everything else and in theory tanks are really good against colossus and not entirely shit vs everything else. Result? A colossus attacking at 9 range is very hard to kill with tanks. Especially since you cannot move the tanks. Pushes can get bogged down by colossus that fire a few shots and then back up once it starts to look a bit hairy before the Protoss warps in another wave of bloody chargelots. So back I go to Vikings, because at least they actually kill colossus. A silly Protoss will lose his colossus to tanks and when that happened I looked super smart (to myself at least) for going tanks but there's no reason why Protoss should be losing colossus to tanks. 5) I'd imagine carrier and/or mothership transitions are also really strong too. I'm not certain of defensive Mech play is necessarily a dead end in TvP but it seems so difficult and pointless to try and work pure mech or ghost mech styles into TvP, especially when bio still works and when Heart of the Swarm is just around the corner to give us 3 new Mech toys and God knows what else. Just my 2 cents. top 10 SEA gm, Number 1 Masters NA (ie, basically GM!) Terran. | ||
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Madera
Sweden2672 Posts
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vdale
Germany1173 Posts
I can understand that people don't rate Goody's macro or multitasking very highly, but pointing out his decisionmaking to say how bad he is, really? He was actually pretty good in TvP before the blueflame hellion patch but after that patch mech in TvP fell apart. Goody said it in multiple interviews and he even played bio in the EPS finals against Socke. You can't trade cost-efficient enough against a protoss who builds a lot of zealots anymore and you can't reproduce as fast as the protoss, so you will die after the next warp-in round. | ||
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