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On December 08 2011 04:45 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:16 s3rp wrote:On December 08 2011 02:41 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:38 Asha` wrote:On December 08 2011 02:34 pPingu wrote:On December 08 2011 02:25 labbe wrote:
Man I love when Artosis is wrong. Mech is bad vs Protoss. It's so bad that even Goody has stopped meching vs toss. Now, if that's not proof of it being bad, I don't know what is. Didn't he play mech vs mana in a 1h20min game or something like that recently? Mech is good at not dying, it's not exactly good at winning. Pure mech may be bad but jjakji is doing great vs toss by mixing helions/banshees/thors in his bio vs protoss Thats great as push . As an endgame composition on 4-5 Bases with a teched out Protoss it's not. If you ever get into a big macrogames you need to go MMM/Ghost/Viking . On lower bases / lower tech there are different compositions that work really well but you either need to end the game early or transition into Bio at some point. Its just impossible to defend spread out bases with Thors/Tanks in your unit composition. The support you will have for those units will be unable to defend your bases with the slow units. What about Her0 vs Puma in the NASL finals? There was a game where Puma did a 2 base version of the 1-1-1, with marines, siege tanks, and banshees. I realize that's not technically pure mech, but when the armies engaged at 140ish supply, Puma came out ahead. And this was against chargelot/immortal, which everyone has been saying hard counters siege tanks. So, I'll admit that Hellions aren't really the answer vs Protoss unless you're dropping them in mineral lines, but tanks and banshees added into a more standard army mix is really strong vs Protoss. I always hear that it only works as a push, and that it gets progressively worse as the game goes on, but I've seen several games now where the 1-1-1 mix does really well vs 140+ food Protoss armies. Lastly, I realize Her0 probably could have won that game if he delayed the engagement a little bit, but that's because he did some excellent DT shenanegains in Puma's base, and doesn't really enter into the discussion of high food Marine/Tank/Banshee being viable.
MVP has been doing that build for ever. ANd it only works at a 2 base allin. You can do it on tal da rim or any place where its easy to set up bunkers on the outside of his natural. But theres no easy transition out and you can't really expand.
Its a allin.
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Idea for 40k+ viewers. Day9 streams his ladders games for x days or something. Cause that would easily draw 40k cause we wall want to see day9 crush koreans on ladder. LETS GO!
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ok ideas for 40k for each one...
On December 08 2011 06:19 Engore wrote:
Idea for 40k+ viewers. Day9 streams his ladders games for x days or something. Cause that would easily draw 40k cause we wall want to see day9 crush koreans on ladder. LETS GO!
ok.. he won :D
for Artosis... start playing terran and write stuff about it in his blog. (or stream).
for itmejp ... pink hair (keep the commercials if need be)
incontrol .. get your "eg beard" and lets see what would look good... blue.. green... violet?
tyler ... do the first 4 stog in 2012 like you did your nasl application.
would be awesome 
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40k Viewer Idea-- (More like how far over 40k will you get idea)
Day[9] Showmatch Day, for CHARITY!
The Idea-- Have Day[9] play all 3 MUs, in a Bo3 format. The rest of the SOTG cast could either play him, or commentate the games. Past 'guests' could be brought on to participate in some way, whether commentating themselves, or being opponents, etc. Basically, if you have contributed to SOTG you are welcome, and encouraged to participate in whatever way you would want!
Why this could work-- Many pros have done WILDLY popular charity events / drives. For example: TLO, Destiny, Sheth (I am sure there are others I am forgetting). Everyone loves starcraft, and could watch Starcraft, watch one of the most popular personalities in Starcraft play 'professionally' for the first time in SC2, ALL WHILE HELPING CHARITY!!! Based on these examples, I think the 40k mark would EASILY be obtained, it is clear the starcraft community loves: Starcraft, Day[9], SOTG members, and charity.
Opponent Ideas for Day[9] to play-- These are not set in stone... just ideas... all have appeared (or were going to appear) on SOTG. I am sure I am forgetting people, Sorry If i am! Nothing personal!!
vZ: Destiny, Idra, Machine, Sheth
vP: Huk, Incontrol, Naniwa, Socke, Tyler, Whitera
vT: Demuslim, Jinro, TLO
Casters: Husky, JP, Tasteosis
-- The important part is the idea. Players / Logistics can be worked out later. The main point-- DAY[9] PLAYING PROS IN STARCRAFT 2!
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On December 08 2011 04:52 QTIP. wrote:
Hypothetically, Artosis is correct. In practice InControl is right, it's not nearly as simple.
Unfortunately, it looks like we'll never know just how viable Mech is in TvP in its current state. I could be wrong here, but I think many players would rather just wait to experiment with Mech knowing that help is coming in HOTS. Why waste time now, knowing that it will be easier later?
Top Terrans know how viable mech is.... not at all.
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40k viewers, if Day9 does his part of SOTG shirtless.
But seriously, last episode really suffered from the loss of DeMuslim. They had this amazingly interesting discussion on Mech in TvP and TvT, and there was no top level protoss or terran to add something to the debate. Instead we had Artosis with statistical and korean knowledge, against inControl who held his ground with rhetorics only.
Demu just played a mech terran against Thorzains bio/mech in NASL and his experience would be invaluable for the debate. Day9 didn't dare to take sides, as per usual.
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On December 08 2011 06:39 Viperx wrote:
40k Viewer Idea-- (More like how far over 40k will you get idea)
Day[9] Showmatch Day, for CHARITY!
The Idea-- Have Day[9] play all 3 MUs, in a Bo3 format. The rest of the SOTG cast could either play him, or commentate the games. Past 'guests' could be brought on to participate in some way, whether commentating themselves, or being opponents, etc. Basically, if you have contributed to SOTG you are welcome, and encouraged to participate in whatever way you would want!
Why this could work-- Many pros have done WILDLY popular charity events / drives. For example: TLO, Destiny, Sheth (I am sure there are others I am forgetting). Everyone loves starcraft, and could watch Starcraft, watch one of the most popular personalities in Starcraft play 'professionally' for the first time in SC2, ALL WHILE HELPING CHARITY!!! Based on these examples, I think the 40k mark would EASILY be obtained, it is clear the starcraft community loves: Starcraft, Day[9], SOTG members, and charity.
Opponent Ideas for Day[9] to play-- These are not set in stone... just ideas... all have appeared (or were going to appear) on SOTG. I am sure I am forgetting people, Sorry If i am! Nothing personal!!
vZ: Destiny, Idra, Machine, Sheth
vP: Huk, Incontrol, Naniwa, Socke, Tyler, Whitera
vT: Demuslim, Jinro, TLO
Casters: Husky, JP, Tasteosis
-- The important part is the idea. Players / Logistics can be worked out later. The main point-- DAY[9] PLAYING PROS IN STARCRAFT 2!
I second this idea, would be awesome to see Day9 play some starcraft!
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Just a bit curious, IdrA said on a NASL interview with Hot_bid that he was single now, yet I think it was his GF (kathy?) that was in incontrol's cam on the last sotg, apparently living in the EG-house... Anyone wanna clarify this?
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United States15275 Posts
I see a vast overestimation of pros' understanding of SC2. If players like Jjakji and Nestea truly understood everything about a particular matchup then we would never see any changes to the metagame. They would have found the ideal strategy and composition for every matchup already and everyone else would copy them after seeing it dominate. But the fact of the matter is no one, from the lowest scrub on the ladder to the greatest GSL champion, understands all the ins and outs of this game. And nobody can predict how the game will evolve.
Both Incontrol and Artosis have valid points.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 08 2011 07:01 Soulrivers wrote:
Just a bit curious, IdrA said on a NASL interview with Hot_bid that he was single now, yet I think it was his GF (kathy?) that was in incontrol's cam on the last sotg, apparently living in the EG-house... Anyone wanna clarify this?
I can clarify that IdrA is married to Kathy. It's a secret marriage that must now be discussed: Kathy was originally a man but the surgery was such a success that she was renamed to "Eva." Eva was originally married to the surgeon that performed the operation but the marriage became loveless as the surgeon had a tough time actually maintaining his attraction to "Eva" due to the fact that she was in fact a he.
Eva eventually moved on but due to the fact that her vaginal operation wasn't fully complete her vaginal canal was shallow and thus clearly not that of a normal woman. Knowing this she preferred to be with younger men or men who don't have as much sexual experience and could thus never really understand something was wrong. That is where Greg comes in.. since then they have had a physical relationship that has made everyone around Eva and greg uncomfortable due to the intensity of their relationship but also because Eva behaved fairly predatorial.
Fast forward to NOW where greg has fled the country to korea under the guise of "training" but in reality he just can't take the truth. Demuslim came hope after learning about Eva's true identity and he outted her in a dramatic clash last night that left machine physically impaired. Now Axslav is afraid to come out of his room Eva renamed her/himself "Kathy" and is stalking the halls of the EG lair.
I write this so you may all know what happened.
Pray for me.
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On December 08 2011 05:11 NoobCrunch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:52 QTIP. wrote:
Hypothetically, Artosis is correct. In practice InControl is right, it's not nearly as simple.
Unfortunately, it looks like we'll never know just how viable Mech is in TvP in its current state. I could be wrong here, but I think many players would rather just wait to experiment with Mech knowing that help is coming in HOTS. Why waste time now, knowing that it will be easier later? You don't play terran do you?
No I don't. Why do you ask?
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On December 08 2011 06:39 Viperx wrote:
40k Viewer Idea-- (More like how far over 40k will you get idea)
Day[9] Showmatch Day, for CHARITY!
The Idea-- Have Day[9] play all 3 MUs, in a Bo3 format. The rest of the SOTG cast could either play him, or commentate the games. Past 'guests' could be brought on to participate in some way, whether commentating themselves, or being opponents, etc. Basically, if you have contributed to SOTG you are welcome, and encouraged to participate in whatever way you would want!
Why this could work-- Many pros have done WILDLY popular charity events / drives. For example: TLO, Destiny, Sheth (I am sure there are others I am forgetting). Everyone loves starcraft, and could watch Starcraft, watch one of the most popular personalities in Starcraft play 'professionally' for the first time in SC2, ALL WHILE HELPING CHARITY!!! Based on these examples, I think the 40k mark would EASILY be obtained, it is clear the starcraft community loves: Starcraft, Day[9], SOTG members, and charity.
Opponent Ideas for Day[9] to play-- These are not set in stone... just ideas... all have appeared (or were going to appear) on SOTG. I am sure I am forgetting people, Sorry If i am! Nothing personal!!
vZ: Destiny, Idra, Machine, Sheth
vP: Huk, Incontrol, Naniwa, Socke, Tyler, Whitera
vT: Demuslim, Jinro, TLO
Casters: Husky, JP, Tasteosis
-- The important part is the idea. Players / Logistics can be worked out later. The main point-- DAY[9] PLAYING PROS IN STARCRAFT 2!
No offence to Day9 (and I am sure he would admit this himself) but he wouldn't have a chance against any of those guys I highlighted above. They are all professional players that train for 8+ hours a day... Day9 is a caster & internet personality. Would be interesting to see him play against another caster though, like Artosis or the above.
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On December 08 2011 07:24 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:01 Soulrivers wrote:
Just a bit curious, IdrA said on a NASL interview with Hot_bid that he was single now, yet I think it was his GF (kathy?) that was in incontrol's cam on the last sotg, apparently living in the EG-house... Anyone wanna clarify this? I can clarify that IdrA is married to Kathy. It's a secret marriage that must now be discussed: Kathy was originally a man but the surgery was such a success that she was renamed to "Eva." Eva was originally married to the surgeon that performed the operation but the marriage became loveless as the surgeon had a tough time actually maintaining his attraction to "Eva" due to the fact that she was in fact a he. Eva eventually moved on but due to the fact that her vaginal operation wasn't fully complete her vaginal canal was shallow and thus clearly not that of a normal woman. Knowing this she preferred to be with younger men or men who don't have as much sexual experience and could thus never really understand something was wrong. That is where Greg comes in.. since then they have had a physical relationship that has made everyone around Eva and greg uncomfortable due to the intensity of their relationship but also because Eva behaved fairly predatorial. Fast forward to NOW where greg has fled the country to korea under the guise of "training" but in reality he just can't take the truth. Demuslim came hope after learning about Eva's true identity and he outted her in a dramatic clash last night that left machine physically impaired. Now Axslav is afraid to come out of his room Eva renamed her/himself "Kathy" and is stalking the halls of the EG lair. I write this so you may all know what happened. Pray for me.
god have mercy on your souls
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On December 08 2011 06:48 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:52 QTIP. wrote:
Hypothetically, Artosis is correct. In practice InControl is right, it's not nearly as simple.
Unfortunately, it looks like we'll never know just how viable Mech is in TvP in its current state. I could be wrong here, but I think many players would rather just wait to experiment with Mech knowing that help is coming in HOTS. Why waste time now, knowing that it will be easier later? Top Terrans know how viable mech is.... not at all.
Yeah - I'm not picking sides here at all, and I certainly don't know more than Terrans at my skill level and beyond.
From what I understand, and get to see at my level of play, Mech TvP sucks. There are a million things you can do to poke holes in it.
I do think that Artosis has a point in regards that end game Mech armies could hypothetically fight late game Protoss armies, assuming that there is a viable way to get there. (which there isn't at the moment)
But saying "you're not trying hard enough / you're not good enough" is a very weak argument.
I dunno, just pouring my thoughts in.
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On December 08 2011 07:24 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:01 Soulrivers wrote:
Just a bit curious, IdrA said on a NASL interview with Hot_bid that he was single now, yet I think it was his GF (kathy?) that was in incontrol's cam on the last sotg, apparently living in the EG-house... Anyone wanna clarify this? I can clarify that IdrA is married to Kathy. It's a secret marriage that must now be discussed: Kathy was originally a man but the surgery was such a success that she was renamed to "Eva." Eva was originally married to the surgeon that performed the operation but the marriage became loveless as the surgeon had a tough time actually maintaining his attraction to "Eva" due to the fact that she was in fact a he. Eva eventually moved on but due to the fact that her vaginal operation wasn't fully complete her vaginal canal was shallow and thus clearly not that of a normal woman. Knowing this she preferred to be with younger men or men who don't have as much sexual experience and could thus never really understand something was wrong. That is where Greg comes in.. since then they have had a physical relationship that has made everyone around Eva and greg uncomfortable due to the intensity of their relationship but also because Eva behaved fairly predatorial. Fast forward to NOW where greg has fled the country to korea under the guise of "training" but in reality he just can't take the truth. Demuslim came hope after learning about Eva's true identity and he outted her in a dramatic clash last night that left machine physically impaired. Now Axslav is afraid to come out of his room Eva renamed her/himself "Kathy" and is stalking the halls of the EG lair. I write this so you may all know what happened. Pray for me.
incontrol delivers like always
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On December 08 2011 07:24 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:01 Soulrivers wrote:
Just a bit curious, IdrA said on a NASL interview with Hot_bid that he was single now, yet I think it was his GF (kathy?) that was in incontrol's cam on the last sotg, apparently living in the EG-house... Anyone wanna clarify this? I can clarify that IdrA is married to Kathy. It's a secret marriage that must now be discussed: Kathy was originally a man but the surgery was such a success that she was renamed to "Eva." Eva was originally married to the surgeon that performed the operation but the marriage became loveless as the surgeon had a tough time actually maintaining his attraction to "Eva" due to the fact that she was in fact a he. Eva eventually moved on but due to the fact that her vaginal operation wasn't fully complete her vaginal canal was shallow and thus clearly not that of a normal woman. Knowing this she preferred to be with younger men or men who don't have as much sexual experience and could thus never really understand something was wrong. That is where Greg comes in.. since then they have had a physical relationship that has made everyone around Eva and greg uncomfortable due to the intensity of their relationship but also because Eva behaved fairly predatorial. Fast forward to NOW where greg has fled the country to korea under the guise of "training" but in reality he just can't take the truth. Demuslim came hope after learning about Eva's true identity and he outted her in a dramatic clash last night that left machine physically impaired. Now Axslav is afraid to come out of his room Eva renamed her/himself "Kathy" and is stalking the halls of the EG lair. I write this so you may all know what happened. Pray for me.
Dude, your impressions literally leave me in tears of laughter. That Dreamhack caster-couch one was effing incredible. Thankyou.
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On December 08 2011 07:24 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:01 Soulrivers wrote:
Just a bit curious, IdrA said on a NASL interview with Hot_bid that he was single now, yet I think it was his GF (kathy?) that was in incontrol's cam on the last sotg, apparently living in the EG-house... Anyone wanna clarify this? I can clarify that IdrA is married to Kathy. It's a secret marriage that must now be discussed: Kathy was originally a man but the surgery was such a success that she was renamed to "Eva." Eva was originally married to the surgeon that performed the operation but the marriage became loveless as the surgeon had a tough time actually maintaining his attraction to "Eva" due to the fact that she was in fact a he. Eva eventually moved on but due to the fact that her vaginal operation wasn't fully complete her vaginal canal was shallow and thus clearly not that of a normal woman. Knowing this she preferred to be with younger men or men who don't have as much sexual experience and could thus never really understand something was wrong. That is where Greg comes in.. since then they have had a physical relationship that has made everyone around Eva and greg uncomfortable due to the intensity of their relationship but also because Eva behaved fairly predatorial. Fast forward to NOW where greg has fled the country to korea under the guise of "training" but in reality he just can't take the truth. Demuslim came hope after learning about Eva's true identity and he outted her in a dramatic clash last night that left machine physically impaired. Now Axslav is afraid to come out of his room Eva renamed her/himself "Kathy" and is stalking the halls of the EG lair. I write this so you may all know what happened. Pray for me.
LOL Maybe Brother Mack will...
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On December 08 2011 06:03 Choboo wrote:
Watching the strategy statement I kind of wish they'd get some successful progamers on the show. Maybe Gatored or someone would fit?
This is a really interesting statement. Do you think incontrol and tyler are unsuccessful due to their poor grasp of strategy or their execution?
Cause your statement only has merit if you beleive the former of those and I from what i've seen / heard from both of them previously their grasp is top notch.
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On December 08 2011 07:26 MasterKush wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 06:39 Viperx wrote:
40k Viewer Idea-- (More like how far over 40k will you get idea)
Day[9] Showmatch Day, for CHARITY!
The Idea-- Have Day[9] play all 3 MUs, in a Bo3 format. The rest of the SOTG cast could either play him, or commentate the games. Past 'guests' could be brought on to participate in some way, whether commentating themselves, or being opponents, etc. Basically, if you have contributed to SOTG you are welcome, and encouraged to participate in whatever way you would want!
Why this could work-- Many pros have done WILDLY popular charity events / drives. For example: TLO, Destiny, Sheth (I am sure there are others I am forgetting). Everyone loves starcraft, and could watch Starcraft, watch one of the most popular personalities in Starcraft play 'professionally' for the first time in SC2, ALL WHILE HELPING CHARITY!!! Based on these examples, I think the 40k mark would EASILY be obtained, it is clear the starcraft community loves: Starcraft, Day[9], SOTG members, and charity.
Opponent Ideas for Day[9] to play-- These are not set in stone... just ideas... all have appeared (or were going to appear) on SOTG. I am sure I am forgetting people, Sorry If i am! Nothing personal!!
vZ: Destiny, Idra, Machine, Sheth
vP: Huk, Incontrol, Naniwa, Socke, Tyler, Whitera
vT: Demuslim, Jinro, TLO
Casters: Husky, JP, Tasteosis
-- The important part is the idea. Players / Logistics can be worked out later. The main point-- DAY[9] PLAYING PROS IN STARCRAFT 2!
No offence to Day9 (and I am sure he would admit this himself) but he wouldn't have a chance against any of those guys I highlighted above. They are all professional players that train for 8+ hours a day... Day9 is a caster & internet personality. Would be interesting to see him play against another caster though, like Artosis or the above.
Have you ever seen him play SC2? So many people just jump to conclusions without any evidence at all. He said that he has GM with all three races, but doesn't have to time to play enough to stay in GM. You can choose not to believe him, I guess. But you really have no reason to.
Also, +1 to incontrol.
Please make that show match happen. I would donate for sure.
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On December 08 2011 07:28 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 06:48 Techno wrote:On December 08 2011 04:52 QTIP. wrote:
Hypothetically, Artosis is correct. In practice InControl is right, it's not nearly as simple.
Unfortunately, it looks like we'll never know just how viable Mech is in TvP in its current state. I could be wrong here, but I think many players would rather just wait to experiment with Mech knowing that help is coming in HOTS. Why waste time now, knowing that it will be easier later? Top Terrans know how viable mech is.... not at all. Yeah - I'm not picking sides here at all, and I certainly don't know more than Terrans at my skill level and beyond. From what I understand, and get to see at my level of play, Mech TvP sucks. There are a million things you can do to poke holes in it. I do think that Artosis has a point in regards that end game Mech armies could hypothetically fight late game Protoss armies, assuming that there is a viable way to get there. (which there isn't at the moment) But saying "you're not trying hard enough / you're not good enough" is a very weak argument. I dunno, just pouring my thoughts in.
Honestly I think mech TvP might be viable, but the point incontrol failed to point out was not that mech hasn't been tried, it's that MMMGV was so massively OP pre emp nerf that spending a lot of time learning a very hard way to play TvP which might be even be better is a waste of Terran pro gamers time. There is nothing to be gained for a top tier terran to learn TvP with mech when TvP with bio is easier and really really strong.
Now that protoss are doing pretty good against terran bio armies we might start seeing some players attempting to work out the 100 problems of using mech in TvP. But while MMMGV was so strong it was a waste of practise time.
P.S.
Day9 IS the elephant in the room
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EPT
