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On December 09 2011 04:01 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 03:48 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
day9 is really smart and im constantly impressed with how well he keeps up with strategies, and even sees new strats coming before they hit mainstream. but i think the thing that gave him the extra oomph that made him american champion of BW so many times was his own personal testing and re-testing and re-testing and re-testing. he talks about this method all the time in his dailies, where you essentially make a hypothesis on how to play a certain strat, play it until it fails, then adjust it, play it until it fails, adjust it, as many times as you can before you have to use it in competition. i think that process is something he has very little time for nowadays, so his own personal concrete contributions to strategy are extremely limited. he still comes up with great hypotheses, but without inhuman genius, it's a fact that most hypotheses are going to be simply wrong or in need of a ton of refinement through that process. so he's in an awkward position where he can hardly ever prove anything he says but he's still worth listening to, even though a lot of what he says is going to be (to some extent) wrong. artosis is in a similar boat
and hell, as long me and incontrol are losing, we're in a similar boat too. i think that unless you can point to a pro game where the thing you're saying will work works, you're kinda stuck. either it's proven in competition or it's not No doubt day9 is really smart. But i have a question out of curiousity: What strategies/trends has he predicted?
He mostly focuses on general stuff, like that protoss would ditch mass colossi instant someone figured out another way to play. That was right after launch, when reapers ruled the world and voidrays had warpspeed. He thought that protoss would lean into the immortal, but it turned out to be the archon(after the buff). He also predicted that infestor/broodlord would be amazing after the buff and the only thing stoping zerg was getting the 7th and 8th gases.
But Tyler is right about one thing, Day9 will not accept that any build or style is invalid simply because "no one else is using it". He demands testing be done and data be presented to him. I am sure this is from years of playing something that he throught was terrible until he figured out a way to make it great. That takes hard work, far more than most SC2 players are willing to put in. It means a lot of stupid losses and watching replays of those loses over and over.
To Day9, Mech vs protoss does not have enough data or information for him to make call if it is viable or not. If its not, he would like to see first hand and dig deep into why it isn't viable. If there is some way to make mech units work against protoss, he would like to see that too.
If you disagree and think mech is crap, you don't need to watch those daily's. But if you want to see if it can and make have some cool ideas to try on the ladder, you can watch and see what is up.
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On December 09 2011 01:13 VanGarde wrote:
I am going to have to applaud the few people who replied to my post and thus proved my argument. So I made a long post pointing out that Day9 and Artosis never said mech was actually good but just wanted to discuss if it could be. I also made the point that people get so caught up in arguing a stupid point that did not even exist in the first place that they don't listen to what people say or read what people write.
So four/five people go out to prove the point by instantly replying to me continuing arguing the point I already said I did not care about, and clearly replies without having read my post since you once again state "Well we just don't like it when Artosis sais mech is the best thing in TvP" or more iterations of "this is why mech does not work, here is a pro player who supports my position".
Are people really this fucking stupid in 2011? READ THE GOD DAMN POST BEFORE YOU REPLY TO IT IN A WAY THAT COMPLETELY PROVES MY ARGUMENT.
Oh, please..
Artosis said: "Terrans should try Mech, I have no idea what a protoss should do to beat that lategame army". Then people explained why Mech doesn't work and in most cases, if the protoss is even half-competent, doesn't even get to the point of having a maxed mech army.
People brought up enough points as to why Mech wouldn't ever work, now you can go on and tell everybody that their combined "theoretical brilliance" (wtf does that even mean, is it just another way of saying that they never tried it so they simply don't know???) is going to make for an interesting discussion. But the discussion is only going to be interesting for people who have never meched in TvP before, because anyone who has ever meched in TvP at least once in their life and at a reasonable level (master+) could tell you that the whole discussion is a waste of time because it simply DOESNT WORK.
How can you be so dense to not understand that?
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Terrans got cought in the Bio Ball because there was absolutely no reason to go for anything else. It had mobility and power. I actually think it got too much power for how much mobility it had and in a strategy game that favors investment and reward, those two needed balance. Now the Bio Ball has a lot less power versus the Death Ball that is not that mobile, but has lots of power.
If the only weakness of going Mech would be the warp prism drops, adjust the build to take care of that aspect. Be 2 steps ahead of what counters the enemy could through at you. Feedback is another reason? Practice against it.
Listing all the counters of a build doesn't go anywhere productive.
99% of the people on this forum are copy pasters anyway from the top 10 of each race but keep an open mind.
I would love if Day9 would make a call to arms to the community and ask for master players to send replays of them trying to figure out mech. (i know he already asked in SOTG, but to take it further).
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On December 09 2011 04:19 SeRenExZerg wrote:
i enjoyed this episode because there was actually legitimate talk about THE GAME, although still not as much as i would want. sotg has become somewhat of a disappointment for me in recent months because they are always so concerned with talking about bullshit drama and not about what matters.
i dont know, maybe viewers actually want to hear about tournament inefficiency and other drama within esports, but in the beginning the show was about the actual game starcraft 2- with blurbs here and there about tournament happenings and the like.
i tune in to hear some of the greatest starcraft minds talking about game theory and strategy, not about who they think is going to do well in group X of tournament Y, or why some guy is an idiot because of a mistake he made. I'm actually starting to prefer Inside the Game, because there is some great discussion that goes on about strategy, game predictions, etc.
sotg, please go back to the way you used to be T.T
I'm the exact opposite as anytime they've discussed balance and "THE GAME" this thread is filled by random people arguing about what's viable, what's not and what's imbalanced for hundreds of pages. And it's 99.9% race biased drivel that never goes further than pointless bickering.
It's not like the show has a even spread of main races nor are they pillars on the level of the high end pros/coaches in terms of game knowledge (koreans mostly).
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On December 09 2011 04:23 ceaRshaf wrote:
Terrans got cought in the Bio Ball because there was absolutely no reason to go for anything else. It had mobility and power. I actually think it got too much power for how much mobility it had and in a strategy game that favors investment and reward, those two needed balance. Now the Bio Ball has a lot less power versus the Death Ball that is not that mobile, but has lots of power.
If the only weakness of going Mech would be the warp prism drops, adjust the build to take care of that aspect. Be 2 steps ahead of what counters the enemy could through at you. Feedback is another reason? Practice against it.
Listing all the counters of a build doesn't go anywhere productive.
99% of the people on this forum are copy pasters anyway from the top 10 of each race but keep an open mind.
I would love if Day9 would make a call to arms to the community and ask for master players to send replays of them trying to figure out mech. (i know he already asked in SOTG, but to take it further).
You know what, I'm tired of this. I'm just going to copy-paste one of my previous posts now because APPEARENTLY people don't read all of the posts in this thread. they just skip the posts that disprove the nonsense they say.
but here it is, just for you:
Hey Incontrol!
I'm a mid master terran player and used to go mech in all my tvp matches. My win rate was like 20% with Mech so I then decided to play bio and it now is around 60-75%.
I have alot of experience with mech in tvp (around 200 games) and I know I'm not a high level player but even at my skill level, protoss players are good enough to exploit the weaknesses of mech.
First of all.
Blink Stalkers - They absolute destroy mech, in combination with observers they can just blink into your main and it's impossible to spread your tanks out well enough to defend 3 bases vs. Blink stalkers. I am sure you know what I mean.
Warp prism - Like you said, even with sensor towers, tanks are absolutely immobile. You can't spread out your tanks or even unsiege them at any point because an unsieged mech army is simply awful. with blink stalker in combination with warp prism harrass mech simply gets destroyed
Open maps - Most maps nowadays are extremely open, you can never get a 4th base up, I tried it but you don't have enough units to defend all bases, it is actually impossible.
Chargelots - Hellions are actually really bad against chargelots, you can even go to the unit test maps and try it, as soon as chargelots close in tanks kill your own hellions before they kills the zealots.
Warp gate - if you trade chargelots vs. tank/hellion, you can then simply warp in stalkers to clean up banshees and ravens. the big advantage of protoss is that they can tech switch immediately, if you kill the ground army you can then warp in enough units to kill the air units of the terran. you could go 100% anti ground and trade vs. a terran army with vikings, banshees, tanks and hellions and then go 100% stalker to clean up the air units. No chance for terran to beat this.
Phoenix/Carrier - it's actually impossible to beat with mech, vikings get annihilated by mass phoenixes and carriers kill everything else, if you simply magicbox phoenixes thors won't do anything and thors take up so much simply you simply won't have many of them anyway.
upgrades - protoss already can go double forge and be on 3/3 when terran gets 2/2 with bio. with mech you are even slower in upgrades, it'standard to be 1/1 when the protoss is 3/3.
losing army - once you lose a mech army, you are simply dead.
these are all the point i could think of right now, please make sure artosis reads this because I actually tried so hard to make mech work but it gets hard countered by the protoss army.
thanks and love you (artosis sucks jk) <3
edit: And you are wrong, bio isn't any more mobile than the protoss deathball at all, chargelots and stalkers are actually faster than unstimmed MMM and collossus has the exact same movement speed AFAIK. your point is not only wrong, it's actually dumb because of how wrong it is.
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The reason mech worked in BW, and doesn't in SC2 is because tanks cost 3 supply now. You can't get a properly sized mech supply count with tanks without heavily sacrificing in other departments, and this same concept goes for adding on thors to the mixture. It's a very similar problem to the BW Hydras & SC2 Roach/Hydra. The supply on them just doesn't allow some strategies to carry over.
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your point is not only wrong, it's actually dumb because of how wrong it is.
I might suggest another edit to make that a little less disrespectful...
Maybe not though... your call.
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Summing up thread:
Terran Players - I tried 100-200 mech games in tvp, got my ass handed to me unless the protoss had no idea what they were doing. Immortals are way too strong vs mech armies. My army is the least mobile and still loses in straight engagements vs protoss even when in perfect position. Hellions were recently nerfed and I will never try mech again. Goody, the king of mech, recently commented that it's not viable vs protoss.
Protoss Players - Terran players aren't trying hard enough. There aren't enough games to support the claim that mech is bad in tvp. Even though I don't play terran at masters or above (or terran at all), mech is good in tvt therefore it is good in tvp.
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On December 09 2011 04:36 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:Show nested quote +your point is not only wrong, it's actually dumb because of how wrong it is. I might suggest another edit to make that a little less disrespectful... Maybe not though... your call.
Why? I didn't call him dumb. I just think his statement "bio is more mobile than protoss" is dumb, because it's proven wrong by simply the movement speed of the units. I didn't offend him personally at all, because the dumb wasn't even directed at him as a person, it was directed at his statement about mobility.
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Well, I don't really care one way or another but:
For one, he never said anything about bio being more mobile than Toss. He said it was more mobile than Mech.
For another, if the statement is easily disproved, then there is no reason to call it dumb. I would have thought that Bio was more mobile than a death-ball... and taking stim into account, it kind of is. Also, it seems weird to edit in an insult...
But this is off-topic I guess, so do whatever you want.
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On December 09 2011 04:41 drax2000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 04:36 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:your point is not only wrong, it's actually dumb because of how wrong it is. I might suggest another edit to make that a little less disrespectful... Maybe not though... your call. Why? I didn't call him dumb. I just think his statement "bio is more mobile than protoss" is dumb, because it's proven wrong by simply the movement speed of the units. I didn't offend him personally at all, because the dumb wasn't even directed at him as a person, it was directed at his statement about mobility.
So the bioball is not more mobile than a deathball just due to movement speed? You're not counting the superior mobility with bioball drops, stim kiting, stim movement speed? Sound just about right coming from a biased terran. 
From what i've seen all of your posts on TL so far have been on the brink of balance whine, both in this thread and the Fundamental issues with terran thread. Great start i must say!
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On December 09 2011 04:41 drax2000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 04:36 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:your point is not only wrong, it's actually dumb because of how wrong it is. I might suggest another edit to make that a little less disrespectful... Maybe not though... your call. Why? I didn't call him dumb. I just think his statement "bio is more mobile than protoss" is dumb, because it's proven wrong by simply the movement speed of the units. I didn't offend him personally at all, because the dumb wasn't even directed at him as a person, it was directed at his statement about mobility.
movement speed doesnt not equal mobility.
the reason a terran bio army is "mobile" is becuase small groups of bio vs zeos/stalkers are extremely effective. If the protoss under reacts he'll lose too much, if he over reacts his army will be out of position.
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On December 09 2011 04:44 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Well, I don't really care one way or another but:
For one, he never said anything about bio being more mobile than Toss. He said it was more mobile than Mech.
For another, if the statement is easily disproved, then there is no reason to call it dumb. I would have thought that Bio was more mobile than a death-ball... and taking stim into account, it kind of is. Also, it seems weird to edit in an insult...
But this is off-topic I guess, so do whatever you want.
dude...
Now the Bio Ball has a lot less power versus the Death Ball that is not that mobile, but has lots of power.
And stim doesn't contribute anything to the mobility of bio, because nobody in their right mind will ever stim a bioball across the map, that is literally suicide.
And warp ins make it so that protoss actually has more mobility in the pvt matchup than terran bio has, with warp ins, distance is nullified, nothing the terran has can compare to that in mobility.
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If you need to be at your mineral line with your army right this very instant and your army is far away from the mineral line you bet your ass I will fucking stim across the map. So will anyone worth their salt.
Warp in contributes nothing to the mobility of the army that is already warped in.
I believe, and may be incorrect, that he was referring to a Terran mech "deathball"...
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Lol drax2000. You made an account just to tell the community that you tried mech and it didn't work? Nice.
I never said what you claim, but now that I think of it a bio ball is a lot mobile than a death ball.
A Death ball is all about positioning. You make it move you make it vulnerable. Terrans can just poke, kill a nexus, get back. Death Ball completely engage or not. But this is another story.
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Fuck it's all theorycraft in here. I was hoping to read some cool ideas of they hit 40k viewers.
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On December 09 2011 04:55 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
If you need to be at your mineral line with your army right this very instant and your army is far away from the mineral line you bet your ass I will fucking stim across the map. So will anyone worth their salt.
Warp in contributes nothing to the mobility of the army that is already warped in.
I believe, and may be incorrect, that he was referring to a Terran mech "deathball"...
Protoss has the easiest time defending drops of all 3 races because of warp in. Stimming your entire army is absolutely retarded. warp in does of course contribute to the mobility of protoss because it allows you to be out on the map whilst still being able to buy time defending against drops by warping in units. a luxury terran and zerg dont have and a huge contribution to mobility.
On December 09 2011 04:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
Lol drax2000. You made an account just to tell the community that you tried mech and it didn't work? Nice.
I never said what you claim, but now that I think of it a bio ball is a lot mobile than a death ball.
A Death ball is all about positioning. You make it move you make it vulnerable. Terrans can just poke, kill a nexus, get back. Death Ball completely engage or not. But this is another story.
Dude you are so wrong. Just the assumption that a deathball is about positioning and a terran bioball isn't, is flatout wrong.
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Having the Vikings and Ghosts on separate control is not positioning.
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On December 09 2011 05:02 ceaRshaf wrote:
Having the Vikings and Ghosts on separate control is not positioning.
You sure as hell are ignorant, aren't you? A terran has to position his army just as much as a protoss has to and has to micro alot more during the fight aswell, but that's not even the point. I find it interesting that you changed the topic to "bio vs. toss" because you obviously have no arguments in favor of mech in tvp.
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On December 09 2011 00:15 RimasOwn wrote:
For 40000 viewers
Have Day[9],InControl,Arotosis,Jp,Tyler,Tasteless Play showmatches while being really drunk :D
This is the only way I see SoTG coming remotely close to 40k
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EPT
