On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
I would love to hear your thoughts on your wins that got you to 4th over tlo, slush and tlo again (the only well known players you beat). Were you proud of the way you played in your victories? Do you think these games made you deserve the 4th place over many other players who would argue their paths were tougher than yours?
Can someone tell me what the point of this discussion is?
i mean hes one of the weaker players that sucked before MLG but now he got an accomplishment and u guys try to take it away? why?
He is defending himself with this result and I only question it because if you watch the games his 4th place seems a little tainted by the complete lack of top-players that he beat to get there. (Yes TLO is a great great player but I still wanna know how Geoff feels about his wins against him. Were they the games you say to yourself "man i really outplayed my opponent?")
On June 02 2011 01:51 Senx wrote: People just love to argue with a community figure, not because the argument itself is anything worthwhile or even remotely correct but because they feel special and important arguing and getting attention from a community figure.
And because everyone will read it on TL forums!!!!!!!!
Not to just hop on Incontrols balls but I think he does pretty damn well for having so much on his plate. I mean, thinking of all the castings, coaching & traveling he does where he isn't able to play the game. Getting 4th place at MLG may not be the most impressive thing every but it's still a nice accomplishment for a gamer. I mean, how many of you can say you placed even top 50 at MLG.
I do think Incontrol is one of the best NA protoss though even though he probably can't play as much as he wants to. Whether he's one of the best protoss in the world though is hard to judge. I mean, Hell, there are a lot of protoss in good leagues that people think are amazing but really are shitty. (eg: Choya, LegalMind, VanVanths)
About the whole EG > FXO discussion. Only time will tell, I think Idra really helps push EG over FXO and I do think Incontrol is better than all but 1 player on FXO (not going to say which zerg im thinking of haha) but with FXO going to Korea you know they will be training hard so who knows.
Why all the incontrol hate? I don't think he's really said anything to deserve getting bashed on, or is it over his EG being better than FXO comment? I'd have to agree with him though, Eg has much more notable players, and Idra alone is better than everyone on FXO. The only thing I would personally disagree with is incontrols comment about sheth, it's not fair to say he's more accomplished when sheth has just now started finaly showing up for tournaments. And unless I'm mistaken sheth has a better record in NASL so far, not to take anything away from incontrol who's still very good.
I apologize in advance for bringing this retarded shit up again, but iNcontroL's argument was so asinine as well as Destiny's counter-argument that I feel it needs addressing. First, iNcontroL isn't a role model. He called himself, and the "faces of ESPORTS, that on WoC and I just about raped a kitten out of frustration because it was such a stupid and pretentious thing to say. He is an entertainer in an ultra niche entertainment industry market. Whether SC2 actually goes mainstream (which it won't) is neither here nor there, but it needs to be clarified that he's an entertainer first and foremost, even as a player.
The idea of censoring entertainers is nothing new, as it's been happening to comedians for at least decades. Unfunny people tell them what topics are off limits, regardless of context, without understanding that absurdity and personal pain are usually what drive comedy. That's what makes Richard Pryor a god and Jeff Foxworthy a fucking idiot. Deep down, I think iNcontroL knows this. After all, he's a pretty funny guy and he knows that shit like "DICK THE GROUND" is pretty funny, but he's been blinded by the fact that he's the "face" of something and has to sell it. And that makes sense in a lot of cases, and on that point even Destiny agrees. When you go into a job interview, you change your presentation so that it is more formal and less offensive/edgy than a casual setting. But that's where things fall apart, because Destiny isn't interviewing to impress people, he already has the job.
IdrA's fans giggle like crazy when he calls someone a 'faggot' and Destiny's love 'baneling rape.' So it's not a popularity/mainstream argument anymore, it's become an insanely backwards plea that the act of rape is so heinous that its verbal representation cannot be used in any non-serious manner, even by entertainers. It's the same with 'retard', 'nigger' and 'faggot' which have historically demeaning purposes. Not only does his ideal situation create a bizarre ever-expanding black hole of words that need to be ignored, for fear of aggravating someone in a personally charged way, but it ignores the nature and purpose of comedy in the first place. Comedy highlights absurdity and allows people to detach themselves from pain.
On WoC, iNc said you wouldn't find 'rape' funny if you visited a battered women's shelter, but I have, and I've done Take Back The Night and worked with rape survivors, and I still think 'rape' can be a funny word. And so did some of them! Not only is iNc imposing artificial limitations on how people should use words, but he's doing it on how people should feel about them as well. It's the same as telling Jews not to laugh at The Producers or that soldiers can't laugh when Colbert makes jokes about war and dying, because those are SERIOUS SUBJECTS WITH DEEP RAMIFICATIONS AND ARE THEREFORE NOT FUNNY. Except that's what makes them ripe for humor, though.
To me, it's actually more offensive to presume to speak for other people or when someone claims to be my representative. I hope most of us can agree that a bunch of white, male suburban nerds discussing the ethics of using 'nigger' and 'rape' is actually more offensive than the words themselves. It would be slightly hilarious if we gave in, however, since it's not like white middle class men have been given enough opportunities to set the status quo.
Destiny is an entertainer and he might not be catering to a diverse audience with personal connections to those words, but it doesn't matter. He's using them in a non-hateful way which he finds funny, and that's all he needs. The merit of his jokes/humor is irrelevant. The SUPER SERIOUS argument is silly and there's no justified reason to place words in an off-limit category for society. Personally? Sure, do what you want. But for everyone else to use? Fuck off and give me my words back. There might be some vague social obligation for Destiny to change his tongue, but there's no ethical or logical reasoning behind it.
And before anyone says these are "special cases," no, they're fucking not. iNcontroL said the word is off limits and not funny.
On June 01 2011 22:22 flodeskum wrote: I personally don't like people censoring their language for anything. But I do understand that it is an American thing and cursing is sort of a big deal over there. So I can fully support them doing that at sponsored events or tournament casts.
However I completely disagree with incontrol saying that destiny has a responsibility to do the same on his personal stream because he now represents the community. Who decides when you cross over from angry guy streaming starcraft to community representitive? Should all streamers be censoring themselves or only the popular ones? In my opinion the contents of a personal stream represents the streamer and nobody else.
The only exception I would make is the word nigger. I just don't think a white person should be using that word (cue the "omg black people can say it, why can't I??? hAXX!?"). I don't think it is a big deal for the decendants of people that were literally owned to own a single word. Just let them have it. But feel free to say anything else
Fuck you nigger I am black, so its ok to use an "lightning" word
Naw, I'm not really black, I'm so white that CRT radiation appears to be coming from my skin. The concept that words are restricted based on race is stupid and is in fact racist. If any person says i cant say something because of the color of my skin that is racist. I don't give a fuck if a person calls me a cracker, and that they authentically think i am lesser of a human being because I'm white. I will not be offended by being called a cracker, i will not care, because i know its not true. The truth of the matter is that black people shouldn't care either, because they should know its not true.
Hell, i call my gay friends flaming faggots jokingly because they don't take themselves seriously, and i actually asked if it offended them, and they don't care because i'm actually comfortable with them being gay, and I'm not doing it in a way to hurt them or degrade them for being gay.
Calling someone a nigger does not instantly degrade them, and if you think it does then society still has a long way to go, its the intent of the speaker that makes a word like nigger bad, good, or neutral.
It's easy for some white skinny nerd posting on an internet forum to post his thoughts on the word "ni**er" and "gay". Just because you have an anecdote about your gay friend doesn't make that language alright for general consumption. The crux of the debate isn't about personal preference, but appealing to a larger audience. Because in your sheltered gaming lifestyle you feel it's ok for those words to be used, doesn't mean the general public does. When they start using the words you write about on broadcast television you may have a point. The american public has already had this debate decades ago. On a purely philosophical level I agree with you, but incontrol is right - if you want to appeal to a bigger audience you need to think before you speak.
IMO this whole debate is borne from the fact the main demographic on TL is 17-19 yr olds who really haven't been out in the real world and are still dealing with their rebellion in general. Rebellion from authoritative figures such as parents,teachers, etc.. Incontrol is getting hated on because he's the authoritative figure in this debate who is trying to help the community, however some people can't see through their blind rage...
Have you seen mainstream media? I think you guys are forgetting that the mainstream as of late is extremely offensive and provocative. We should not be trying to appeal to 30+ because it would be a waste of resources.
The issue is marketability, is starcraft 2's chances to become a main stream success inhibited by streamers who use the words rape, nigger, faggot, and gay? I doubt it, I think the market has a place for people who speak like that, but not at professional events. Destiny is making a living from being provocative, while day9 is not that controversial or provocative and is making a living that way. The market can obviously accept it in its current state.
Now here's something to think about, what if there was a player in the community that was truly racist, and talked about hating black people all the time on his stream, and about how women should be second class citizens, etc. etc. more offensive shit. Do you think he would be accepted in the community, if their was someone like that? Hell no, of course not, because that straight up hurts almost everyone that we could possibly market too, and that is just a terrible person. No one wants to be associated with a racist and sexist. Ive seen sports shows, they have professional clean cut sport shows and news, and they also have sports shows where they do use vulgar language and they go in depth, and their are people that watch that stuff too.
I think they can co-exist within the market, because they already are. Also, what demographic would we turn away that we actually have a chance of getting? I mean, do people realize that we are playing a video game, and thus the potential demographics that we can appeal to are already lowered, and also tend to be gamers. I think the most likely demographic that we are going to appeal to are the console players 13+ that already understand the context of words like rape. The concept that starcraft 2 Is gonna appeal to non gamers in mass is far fetched to me, so it feels like this proper language bullshit won't benefit us much at all or possibly hurt us because some people wont be able to go find contents like destinies.
What "mainstream media" are you talking about? Find me any legitimate quote from a mainstream media outlet in which they use any of the words you mention without qualifying it as hate speech. I don't think you know what is considered "mainstream media". Do you consider ABC mainstream media? Have you seen the campaign being run during primetime television telling people NOT to use the word gay as an insult? I really don't know what shows/programs your talking about where that kind of language is used, but I'd love to see some clips.
On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
Well when you automatically start in the top 16 it becomes less impressive than something like Naniwa's run. ^^
Didn't he only get top 16 seed because someone pulled out? or am i misremembering?
Ya one of the original top 16 couldn't make it so he got bumped up.
And then he cheesed his way past that bracket set like a "quesadilla" with winning the match as justification. Now he is referencing this same tournament as a metric for skill. No disrepect intended and 4th place is really great no matter the play style used to get there, but it seems a bit contradictory.
On June 01 2011 23:49 Pekkz wrote: To the GSTL discussion. Mouz and dignitas is really the only teams that would have any chance at all out there. Maby liquid....
When geoff even says EG would be a better representation for the foreigners then FXO, I have to respectivly disagree. FXO has Sheth, Moonan, QXC, Moonglade. You could say idra is better then them all , but after that the next 3-4 FXO players is better then the next EG player. I guess you could argue that Axlav is allright, but he has no experience playing outside of US. Demuslim has not had the best comeback either.
Idra is a player that could potentially all kill some of the worse korean teams, but EG just lacks that second strong player in my opinion.
You always go thread to thread hating on EG lol
sorry you think so low of us mate but we are just fine. I won't even justify this post with any results cause it will sound like bragging but you are just like "well they have these 3 guys and I say they are better!"
Lol
What can I say, EG rubs me the wrong way.
I won't even justify this post with any results (or lack thereof) cause it will sound like hating, and you will just say " I got 4th at MLG,yaaay".
On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
Well when you automatically start in the top 16 it becomes less impressive than something like Naniwa's run. ^^
Didn't he only get top 16 seed because someone pulled out? or am i misremembering?
Ya one of the original top 16 couldn't make it so he got bumped up.
And then he cheesed his way past that bracket set like a "quesadilla" with winning the match as justification. Now he is referencing this same tournament as a metric for skill. No disrepect intended and 4th place is really great but it seems a bit contradictory.
That's why something like "4th place" needs to be put into context if it's going to be used as a barometer of skill, but apparently that's 'hating on incontrol.'
I apologize in advance for bringing this retarded shit up again, but iNcontroL's argument was so asinine as well as Destiny's counter-argument that I feel it needs addressing. First, iNcontroL isn't a role model. He called himself, and the "faces of ESPORTS, that on WoC and I just about raped a kitten out of frustration because it was such a stupid and pretentious thing to say. He is an entertainer in an ultra niche entertainment industry market. Whether SC2 actually goes mainstream (which it won't) is neither here nor there, but it needs to be clarified that he's an entertainer first and foremost, even as a player.
The idea of censoring entertainers is nothing new, as it's been happening to comedians for at least decades. Unfunny people tell them what topics are off limits, regardless of context, without understanding that absurdity and personal pain are usually what drive comedy. That's what makes Richard Pryor a god and Jeff Foxworthy a fucking idiot. Deep down, I think iNcontroL knows this. After all, he's a pretty funny guy and he knows that shit like "DICK THE GROUND" is pretty funny, but he's been blinded by the fact that he's the "face" of something and has to sell it. And that makes sense in a lot of cases, and on that point even Destiny agrees. When you go into a job interview, you change your presentation so that it is more formal and less offensive/edgy than a casual setting. But that's where things fall apart, because Destiny isn't interviewing to impress people, he already has the job.
IdrA's fans giggle like crazy when he calls someone a 'faggot' and Destiny's love 'baneling rape.' So it's not a popularity/mainstream argument anymore, it's become an insanely backwards plea that the act of rape is so heinous that its verbal representation cannot be used in any non-serious manner, even by entertainers. It's the same with 'retard', 'nigger' and 'faggot' which have historically demeaning purposes. Not only does his ideal situation create a bizarre ever-expanding black hole of words that need to be ignored, for fear of aggravating someone in a personally charged way, but it ignores the nature and purpose of comedy in the first place. Comedy highlights absurdity and allows people to detach themselves from pain.
On WoC, iNc said you wouldn't find 'rape' funny if you visited a battered women's shelter, but I have, and I've done Take Back The Night and worked with rape survivors, and I still think 'rape' can be a funny word. And so did some of them! Not only is iNc imposing artificial limitations on how people should use words, but he's doing it on how people should feel about them as well. It's the same as telling Jews not to laugh at The Producers or that soldiers can't laugh when Colbert makes jokes about war and dying, because those are SERIOUS SUBJECTS WITH DEEP RAMIFICATIONS AND ARE THEREFORE NOT FUNNY. Except that's what makes them ripe for humor, though.
To me, it's actually more offensive to presume to speak for other people or when someone claims to be my representative. I hope most of us can agree that a bunch of white, male suburban nerds discussing the ethics of using 'nigger' and 'rape' is actually more offensive than the words themselves. It would be slightly hilarious if we gave in, however, since it's not like white middle class men have been given enough opportunities to set the status quo.
Destiny is an entertainer and he might not be catering to a diverse audience with personal connections to those words, but it doesn't matter. He's using them in a non-hateful way which he finds funny, and that's all he needs. The merit of his jokes/humor is irrelevant. The SUPER SERIOUS argument is silly and there's no justified reason to place words in an off-limit category for society. Personally? Sure, do what you want. But for everyone else to use? Fuck off and give me my words back. There might be some vague social obligation for Destiny to change his tongue, but there's no ethical or logical reasoning behind it.
I apologize in advance for bringing this retarded shit up again, but iNcontroL's argument was so asinine as well as Destiny's counter-argument that I feel it needs addressing. First, iNcontroL isn't a role model. He called himself, and the "faces of ESPORTS, that on WoC and I just about raped a kitten out of frustration because it was such a stupid and pretentious thing to say. He is an entertainer in an ultra niche entertainment industry market. Whether SC2 actually goes mainstream (which it won't) is neither here nor there, but it needs to be clarified that he's an entertainer first and foremost, even as a player.
The idea of censoring entertainers is nothing new, as it's been happening to comedians for at least decades. Unfunny people tell them what topics are off limits, regardless of context, without understanding that absurdity and personal pain are usually what drive comedy. That's what makes Richard Pryor a god and Jeff Foxworthy a fucking idiot. Deep down, I think iNcontroL knows this. After all, he's a pretty funny guy and he knows that shit like "DICK THE GROUND" is pretty funny, but he's been blinded by the fact that he's the "face" of something and has to sell it. And that makes sense in a lot of cases, and on that point even Destiny agrees. When you go into a job interview, you change your presentation so that it is more formal and less offensive/edgy than a casual setting. But that's where things fall apart, because Destiny isn't interviewing to impress people, he already has the job.
IdrA's fans giggle like crazy when he calls someone a 'faggot' and Destiny's love 'baneling rape.' So it's not a popularity/mainstream argument anymore, it's become an insanely backwards plea that the act of rape is so heinous that its verbal representation cannot be used in any non-serious manner, even by entertainers. It's the same with 'retard', 'nigger' and 'faggot' which have historically demeaning purposes. Not only does his ideal situation create a bizarre ever-expanding black hole of words that need to be ignored, for fear of aggravating someone in a personally charged way, but it ignores the nature and purpose of comedy in the first place. Comedy highlights absurdity and allows people to detach themselves from pain.
On WoC, iNc said you wouldn't find 'rape' funny if you visited a battered women's shelter, but I have, and I've done Take Back The Night and worked with rape survivors, and I still think 'rape' can be a funny word. And so did some of them! Not only is iNc imposing artificial limitations on how people should use words, but he's doing it on how people should feel about them as well. It's the same as telling Jews not to laugh at The Producers or that soldiers can't laugh when Colbert makes jokes about war and dying, because those are SERIOUS SUBJECTS WITH DEEP RAMIFICATIONS AND ARE THEREFORE NOT FUNNY. Except that's what makes them ripe for humor, though.
To me, it's actually more offensive to presume to speak for other people or when someone claims to be my representative. I hope most of us can agree that a bunch of white, male suburban nerds discussing the ethics of using 'nigger' and 'rape' is actually more offensive than the words themselves. It would be slightly hilarious if we gave in, however, since it's not like white middle class men have been given enough opportunities to set the status quo.
Destiny is an entertainer and he might not be catering to a diverse audience with personal connections to those words, but it doesn't matter. He's using them in a non-hateful way which he finds funny, and that's all he needs. The merit of his jokes/humor is irrelevant. The SUPER SERIOUS argument is silly and there's no justified reason to place words in an off-limit category for society. Personally? Sure, do what you want. But for everyone else to use? Fuck off and give me my words back. There might be some vague social obligation for Destiny to change his tongue, but there's no ethical or logical reasoning behind it.
Implicit in the argument for E-Sports is that it should be fit for consumption by the public in order to grow. The links you offered are of television shows or comedy acts. Starcraft isn't scripted or written by a team of writers. When you post baseball or basketball broadcasts where they say "OMG did you see LeBron utterly rape Dirk with that crossover?!" then you may have a point.]
He is defending himself with this result and I only question it because if you watch the games his 4th place seems a little tainted by the complete lack of top-players that he beat to get there. (Yes TLO is a great great player but I still wanna know how Geoff feels about his wins against him. Were they the games you say to yourself "man i really outplayed my opponent?")
Wow seriously just grow up you immature piece of shit. Your opinion is irrelevant because your mind is so neutered you see the bad in everything. It is as simple as that. Now go back to destiny's stream and have fun with the cesspool of other like minded individuals, goddamn juveniles.
On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
That's exactly what I think. I also think it's hypocritical that Incontrol says I don't have a valid perspective on what is an accomplishment. In the very show this thread is based on, he's repeatedly stated that it's unfair to attack himself or Tyler for being worse than the koreans they criticize, but then he does precisely the same thing to me.
Teamliquid wouldn't be very popular if everytime a poster tried to commentate on player that was better than them, they were shot down.
I apologize in advance for bringing this retarded shit up again, but iNcontroL's argument was so asinine as well as Destiny's counter-argument that I feel it needs addressing. First, iNcontroL isn't a role model. He called himself, and the "faces of ESPORTS, that on WoC and I just about raped a kitten out of frustration because it was such a stupid and pretentious thing to say. He is an entertainer in an ultra niche entertainment industry market. Whether SC2 actually goes mainstream (which it won't) is neither here nor there, but it needs to be clarified that he's an entertainer first and foremost, even as a player.
The idea of censoring entertainers is nothing new, as it's been happening to comedians for at least decades. Unfunny people tell them what topics are off limits, regardless of context, without understanding that absurdity and personal pain are usually what drive comedy. That's what makes Richard Pryor a god and Jeff Foxworthy a fucking idiot. Deep down, I think iNcontroL knows this. After all, he's a pretty funny guy and he knows that shit like "DICK THE GROUND" is pretty funny, but he's been blinded by the fact that he's the "face" of something and has to sell it. And that makes sense in a lot of cases, and on that point even Destiny agrees. When you go into a job interview, you change your presentation so that it is more formal and less offensive/edgy than a casual setting. But that's where things fall apart, because Destiny isn't interviewing to impress people, he already has the job.
IdrA's fans giggle like crazy when he calls someone a 'faggot' and Destiny's love 'baneling rape.' So it's not a popularity/mainstream argument anymore, it's become an insanely backwards plea that the act of rape is so heinous that its verbal representation cannot be used in any non-serious manner, even by entertainers. It's the same with 'retard', 'nigger' and 'faggot' which have historically demeaning purposes. Not only does his ideal situation create a bizarre ever-expanding black hole of words that need to be ignored, for fear of aggravating someone in a personally charged way, but it ignores the nature and purpose of comedy in the first place. Comedy highlights absurdity and allows people to detach themselves from pain.
On WoC, iNc said you wouldn't find 'rape' funny if you visited a battered women's shelter, but I have, and I've done Take Back The Night and worked with rape survivors, and I still think 'rape' can be a funny word. And so did some of them! Not only is iNc imposing artificial limitations on how people should use words, but he's doing it on how people should feel about them as well. It's the same as telling Jews not to laugh at The Producers or that soldiers can't laugh when Colbert makes jokes about war and dying, because those are SERIOUS SUBJECTS WITH DEEP RAMIFICATIONS AND ARE THEREFORE NOT FUNNY. Except that's what makes them ripe for humor, though.
To me, it's actually more offensive to presume to speak for other people or when someone claims to be my representative. I hope most of us can agree that a bunch of white, male suburban nerds discussing the ethics of using 'nigger' and 'rape' is actually more offensive than the words themselves. It would be slightly hilarious if we gave in, however, since it's not like white middle class men have been given enough opportunities to set the status quo.
Destiny is an entertainer and he might not be catering to a diverse audience with personal connections to those words, but it doesn't matter. He's using them in a non-hateful way which he finds funny, and that's all he needs. The merit of his jokes/humor is irrelevant. The SUPER SERIOUS argument is silly and there's no justified reason to place words in an off-limit category for society. Personally? Sure, do what you want. But for everyone else to use? Fuck off and give me my words back. There might be some vague social obligation for Destiny to change his tongue, but there's no ethical or logical reasoning behind it.
Implicit in the argument for E-Sports is that it should be fit for consumption by the public in order to grow. The links you offered are of television shows or comedy acts. Starcraft isn't scripted or written by a team of writers. When you post baseball or basketball broadcasts where they say "OMG did you see LeBron utterly rape Dirk with that crossover?!" then you may have a point.
Joe Rogan does it for MMA. Everything being talked about is part of the entertainment industry. There is no explicit difference between a pro gamer like Destiny and a comedian and, in fact, most of his fans would tell you that they watch his stream because of its comedic value.
He is defending himself with this result and I only question it because if you watch the games his 4th place seems a little tainted by the complete lack of top-players that he beat to get there. (Yes TLO is a great great player but I still wanna know how Geoff feels about his wins against him. Were they the games you say to yourself "man i really outplayed my opponent?")
Wow seriously just grow up you immature piece of shit. Your opinion is irrelevant because your mind is so neutered you see the bad in everything. It is as simple as that. Now go back to destiny's stream and have fun with the cesspool of other like minded individuals, goddamn juveniles.
Ah yes, we have now entered the realm of the ad hominem attacks. The full gamut of e-argumentation is in effect now.
He is defending himself with this result and I only question it because if you watch the games his 4th place seems a little tainted by the complete lack of top-players that he beat to get there. (Yes TLO is a great great player but I still wanna know how Geoff feels about his wins against him. Were they the games you say to yourself "man i really outplayed my opponent?")
Wow seriously just grow up you immature piece of shit. Your opinion is irrelevant because your mind is so neutered you see the bad in everything. It is as simple as that. Now go back to destiny's stream and have fun with the cesspool of other like minded individuals, goddamn juveniles.
I apologize in advance for bringing this retarded shit up again, but iNcontroL's argument was so asinine as well as Destiny's counter-argument that I feel it needs addressing. First, iNcontroL isn't a role model. He called himself, and the "faces of ESPORTS, that on WoC and I just about raped a kitten out of frustration because it was such a stupid and pretentious thing to say. He is an entertainer in an ultra niche entertainment industry market. Whether SC2 actually goes mainstream (which it won't) is neither here nor there, but it needs to be clarified that he's an entertainer first and foremost, even as a player.
The idea of censoring entertainers is nothing new, as it's been happening to comedians for at least decades. Unfunny people tell them what topics are off limits, regardless of context, without understanding that absurdity and personal pain are usually what drive comedy. That's what makes Richard Pryor a god and Jeff Foxworthy a fucking idiot. Deep down, I think iNcontroL knows this. After all, he's a pretty funny guy and he knows that shit like "DICK THE GROUND" is pretty funny, but he's been blinded by the fact that he's the "face" of something and has to sell it. And that makes sense in a lot of cases, and on that point even Destiny agrees. When you go into a job interview, you change your presentation so that it is more formal and less offensive/edgy than a casual setting. But that's where things fall apart, because Destiny isn't interviewing to impress people, he already has the job.
IdrA's fans giggle like crazy when he calls someone a 'faggot' and Destiny's love 'baneling rape.' So it's not a popularity/mainstream argument anymore, it's become an insanely backwards plea that the act of rape is so heinous that its verbal representation cannot be used in any non-serious manner, even by entertainers. It's the same with 'retard', 'nigger' and 'faggot' which have historically demeaning purposes. Not only does his ideal situation create a bizarre ever-expanding black hole of words that need to be ignored, for fear of aggravating someone in a personally charged way, but it ignores the nature and purpose of comedy in the first place. Comedy highlights absurdity and allows people to detach themselves from pain.
On WoC, iNc said you wouldn't find 'rape' funny if you visited a battered women's shelter, but I have, and I've done Take Back The Night and worked with rape survivors, and I still think 'rape' can be a funny word. And so did some of them! Not only is iNc imposing artificial limitations on how people should use words, but he's doing it on how people should feel about them as well. It's the same as telling Jews not to laugh at The Producers or that soldiers can't laugh when Colbert makes jokes about war and dying, because those are SERIOUS SUBJECTS WITH DEEP RAMIFICATIONS AND ARE THEREFORE NOT FUNNY. Except that's what makes them ripe for humor, though.
To me, it's actually more offensive to presume to speak for other people or when someone claims to be my representative. I hope most of us can agree that a bunch of white, male suburban nerds discussing the ethics of using 'nigger' and 'rape' is actually more offensive than the words themselves. It would be slightly hilarious if we gave in, however, since it's not like white middle class men have been given enough opportunities to set the status quo.
Destiny is an entertainer and he might not be catering to a diverse audience with personal connections to those words, but it doesn't matter. He's using them in a non-hateful way which he finds funny, and that's all he needs. The merit of his jokes/humor is irrelevant. The SUPER SERIOUS argument is silly and there's no justified reason to place words in an off-limit category for society. Personally? Sure, do what you want. But for everyone else to use? Fuck off and give me my words back. There might be some vague social obligation for Destiny to change his tongue, but there's no ethical or logical reasoning behind it.
Implicit in the argument for E-Sports is that it should be fit for consumption by the public in order to grow. The links you offered are of television shows or comedy acts. Starcraft isn't scripted or written by a team of writers. When you post baseball or basketball broadcasts where they say "OMG did you see LeBron utterly rape Dirk with that crossover?!" then you may have a point.
Joe Rogan does it for MMA. Everything being talked about is part of the entertainment industry. There is no explicit difference between a pro gamer like Destiny and a comedian and, in fact, most of his fans would tell you that they watch his stream because of its comedic value.
You can argue that all sports are entertainment in the way you do. I don't think the MMA comparison rings true with Starcraft2. What incontrol is saying that is if we want to move forward as a community and bring more casual viewers people should be more aware of what they say. You'll still never find a basketball, baseball, soccer, golf, tennis, etc. etc. clip where they use ANY of the words you're talking about. But your youtube videos having people use the word rape have nothing to do with this debate.
i just dropped by in this thread and one post jumped out for the quality of its argument. Thanks Jibba for taking the time to put together such a well-reasoned and thoughtful post. It's nice to read something that is carefully written for a change.
To me, it's actually more offensive to presume to speak for other people or when someone claims to be my representative. I hope most of us can agree that a bunch of white, male suburban nerds discussing the ethics of using 'nigger' and 'rape' is actually more offensive than the words themselves. It would be slightly hilarious if we gave in, however, since it's not like white middle class men have been given enough opportunities to set the status quo.
On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
That's exactly what I think. I also think it's hypocritical that Incontrol says I don't have a valid perspective on what is an accomplishment. In the very show this thread is based on, he's repeatedly stated that it's unfair to attack himself or Tyler for being worse than the koreans they criticize, but then he does precisely the same thing to me.
Teamliquid wouldn't be very popular if everytime a poster tried to commentate on player that was better than them, they were shot down.
You posted HALF of what I said and postulated like it was my opinion or what I said, shame on you.
No, I said that tyler and I don't have to be better than MC to criticize him because WE ARE STILL PROGAMERS. WE SPEND 10000000000000x MORE TIME WITH THIS GAME THAN YOU + 10 of you closest friends.
That is NOT the same as you, some completely random hater who ALWAYS posts about how bad I am stating once again that you think you are some kind of an authority on the subject.
Do NOT speak for me in the future. You have an inability to consider my thoughts or opinions in anything but some hugely tainted light and it is getting old.
EPT
there's no need to go nuts.
