I apologize in advance for bringing this retarded shit up again, but iNcontroL's argument was so asinine as well as Destiny's counter-argument that I feel it needs addressing. First, iNcontroL isn't a role model. He called himself, and the "faces of ESPORTS, that on WoC and I just about raped a kitten out of frustration because it was such a stupid and pretentious thing to say. He is an entertainer in an ultra niche entertainment industry market. Whether SC2 actually goes mainstream (which it won't) is neither here nor there, but it needs to be clarified that he's an entertainer first and foremost, even as a player.
The idea of censoring entertainers is nothing new, as it's been happening to comedians for at least decades. Unfunny people tell them what topics are off limits, regardless of context, without understanding that absurdity and personal pain are usually what drive comedy. That's what makes Richard Pryor a god and Jeff Foxworthy a fucking idiot. Deep down, I think iNcontroL knows this. After all, he's a pretty funny guy and he knows that shit like "DICK THE GROUND" is pretty funny, but he's been blinded by the fact that he's the "face" of something and has to sell it. And that makes sense in a lot of cases, and on that point even Destiny agrees. When you go into a job interview, you change your presentation so that it is more formal and less offensive/edgy than a casual setting. But that's where things fall apart, because Destiny isn't interviewing to impress people, he already has the job.
IdrA's fans giggle like crazy when he calls someone a 'faggot' and Destiny's love 'baneling rape.' So it's not a popularity/mainstream argument anymore, it's become an insanely backwards plea that the act of rape is so heinous that its verbal representation cannot be used in any non-serious manner, even by entertainers. It's the same with 'retard', 'nigger' and 'faggot' which have historically demeaning purposes. Not only does his ideal situation create a bizarre ever-expanding black hole of words that need to be ignored, for fear of aggravating someone in a personally charged way, but it ignores the nature and purpose of comedy in the first place. Comedy highlights absurdity and allows people to detach themselves from pain.
On WoC, iNc said you wouldn't find 'rape' funny if you visited a battered women's shelter, but I have, and I've done Take Back The Night and worked with rape survivors, and I still think 'rape' can be a funny word. And so did some of them! Not only is iNc imposing artificial limitations on how people should use words, but he's doing it on how people should feel about them as well. It's the same as telling Jews not to laugh at The Producers or that soldiers can't laugh when Colbert makes jokes about war and dying, because those are SERIOUS SUBJECTS WITH DEEP RAMIFICATIONS AND ARE THEREFORE NOT FUNNY. Except that's what makes them ripe for humor, though.
To me, it's actually more offensive to presume to speak for other people or when someone claims to be my representative. I hope most of us can agree that a bunch of white, male suburban nerds discussing the ethics of using 'nigger' and 'rape' is actually more offensive than the words themselves. It would be slightly hilarious if we gave in, however, since it's not like white middle class men have been given enough opportunities to set the status quo.
Destiny is an entertainer and he might not be catering to a diverse audience with personal connections to those words, but it doesn't matter. He's using them in a non-hateful way which he finds funny, and that's all he needs. The merit of his jokes/humor is irrelevant. The SUPER SERIOUS argument is silly and there's no justified reason to place words in an off-limit category for society. Personally? Sure, do what you want. But for everyone else to use? Fuck off and give me my words back. There might be some vague social obligation for Destiny to change his tongue, but there's no ethical or logical reasoning behind it.
And before anyone says these are "special cases," no, they're fucking not. iNcontroL said the word is off limits and not funny.
He is defending himself with this result and I only question it because if you watch the games his 4th place seems a little tainted by the complete lack of top-players that he beat to get there. (Yes TLO is a great great player but I still wanna know how Geoff feels about his wins against him. Were they the games you say to yourself "man i really outplayed my opponent?")
Wow seriously just grow up you immature piece of shit. Your opinion is irrelevant because your mind is so neutered you see the bad in everything. It is as simple as that. Now go back to destiny's stream and have fun with the cesspool of other like minded individuals, goddamn juveniles.
I sincerely hope EG is not the reason why Geoff has decided to leave State of the Game, if so you can speculate IdrA's leave soon as well which is unfortunate. When you think of Incontrol or IdrA on a show, it's State of the Game El Classico, which I believe is the mecha of Starcraft talk shows. I personally never agreed with the creation of "Inside the Game", it seems EG is trying too hard to control all aspects of everything sc2 with brute force. Given this is all speculation, the Greg+Geoff on both shows became redundant, and if one is to take priority of course it will be the one by their own sponsors which depresses me.
The opinions expressed by this user does not reflect the official position of Slardar.net or it's staff.
He is defending himself with this result and I only question it because if you watch the games his 4th place seems a little tainted by the complete lack of top-players that he beat to get there. (Yes TLO is a great great player but I still wanna know how Geoff feels about his wins against him. Were they the games you say to yourself "man i really outplayed my opponent?")
Wow seriously just grow up you immature piece of shit. Your opinion is irrelevant because your mind is so neutered you see the bad in everything. It is as simple as that. Now go back to destiny's stream and have fun with the cesspool of other like minded individuals, goddamn juveniles.
User was temp banned for this post.
You could atleast quote me correctly before all that. Did you read what I and Geoff wrote?
On June 02 2011 02:19 Slardar wrote: I sincerely hope EG is not the reason why Geoff has decided to leave State of the Game, if so you can speculate IdrA's leave soon as well which is unfortunate. When I think of Incontrol or IdrA on a show, it's State of the Game El Classico, which I believe is the mecha of Starcraft talk shows. I personally never agreed with the creation of "Inside the Game", it seems EG is trying too hard to control all aspects of everything sc2 with brute force. Given this is all speculation, the Greg+Geoff on both shows became redundant, and if one is to take priority of course it will be the one by their own sponsors which is a shame.
The opinions expressed by this user does not reflect the official position of Slardar.net or it's staff.
On June 01 2011 22:27 RedBack wrote: Just listened back to it and machine or someone definately said goodbye all eg players, and idra replyed it wasnt official. So this basically confirms EG are the reason geoffs leaving and idra might not be back?
On June 01 2011 22:22 flodeskum wrote: I personally don't like people censoring their language for anything. But I do understand that it is an American thing and cursing is sort of a big deal over there. So I can fully support them doing that at sponsored events or tournament casts.
However I completely disagree with incontrol saying that destiny has a responsibility to do the same on his personal stream because he now represents the community. Who decides when you cross over from angry guy streaming starcraft to community representitive? Should all streamers be censoring themselves or only the popular ones? In my opinion the contents of a personal stream represents the streamer and nobody else.
The only exception I would make is the word nigger. I just don't think a white person should be using that word (cue the "omg black people can say it, why can't I??? hAXX!?"). I don't think it is a big deal for the decendants of people that were literally owned to own a single word. Just let them have it. But feel free to say anything else
Fuck you nigger I am black, so its ok to use an "lightning" word
Naw, I'm not really black, I'm so white that CRT radiation appears to be coming from my skin. The concept that words are restricted based on race is stupid and is in fact racist. If any person says i cant say something because of the color of my skin that is racist. I don't give a fuck if a person calls me a cracker, and that they authentically think i am lesser of a human being because I'm white. I will not be offended by being called a cracker, i will not care, because i know its not true. The truth of the matter is that black people shouldn't care either, because they should know its not true.
Hell, i call my gay friends flaming faggots jokingly because they don't take themselves seriously, and i actually asked if it offended them, and they don't care because i'm actually comfortable with them being gay, and I'm not doing it in a way to hurt them or degrade them for being gay.
Calling someone a nigger does not instantly degrade them, and if you think it does then society still has a long way to go, its the intent of the speaker that makes a word like nigger bad, good, or neutral.
It's easy for some white skinny nerd posting on an internet forum to post his thoughts on the word "ni**er" and "gay". Just because you have an anecdote about your gay friend doesn't make that language alright for general consumption. The crux of the debate isn't about personal preference, but appealing to a larger audience. Because in your sheltered gaming lifestyle you feel it's ok for those words to be used, doesn't mean the general public does. When they start using the words you write about on broadcast television you may have a point. The american public has already had this debate decades ago. On a purely philosophical level I agree with you, but incontrol is right - if you want to appeal to a bigger audience you need to think before you speak.
IMO this whole debate is borne from the fact the main demographic on TL is 17-19 yr olds who really haven't been out in the real world and are still dealing with their rebellion in general. Rebellion from authoritative figures such as parents,teachers, etc.. Incontrol is getting hated on because he's the authoritative figure in this debate who is trying to help the community, however some people can't see through their blind rage...
Have you seen mainstream media? I think you guys are forgetting that the mainstream as of late is extremely offensive and provocative. We should not be trying to appeal to 30+ because it would be a waste of resources.
The issue is marketability, is starcraft 2's chances to become a main stream success inhibited by streamers who use the words rape, nigger, faggot, and gay? I doubt it, I think the market has a place for people who speak like that, but not at professional events. Destiny is making a living from being provocative, while day9 is not that controversial or provocative and is making a living that way. The market can obviously accept it in its current state.
Now here's something to think about, what if there was a player in the community that was truly racist, and talked about hating black people all the time on his stream, and about how women should be second class citizens, etc. etc. more offensive shit. Do you think he would be accepted in the community, if their was someone like that? Hell no, of course not, because that straight up hurts almost everyone that we could possibly market too, and that is just a terrible person. No one wants to be associated with a racist and sexist. Ive seen sports shows, they have professional clean cut sport shows and news, and they also have sports shows where they do use vulgar language and they go in depth, and their are people that watch that stuff too.
I think they can co-exist within the market, because they already are. Also, what demographic would we turn away that we actually have a chance of getting? I mean, do people realize that we are playing a video game, and thus the potential demographics that we can appeal to are already lowered, and also tend to be gamers. I think the most likely demographic that we are going to appeal to are the console players 13+ that already understand the context of words like rape. The concept that starcraft 2 Is gonna appeal to non gamers in mass is far fetched to me, so it feels like this proper language bullshit won't benefit us much at all or possibly hurt us because some people wont be able to go find contents like destinies.
What "mainstream media" are you talking about? Find me any legitimate quote from a mainstream media outlet in which they use any of the words you mention without qualifying it as hate speech. I don't think you know what is considered "mainstream media". Do you consider ABC mainstream media? Have you seen the campaign being run during primetime television telling people NOT to use the word gay as an insult? I really don't know what shows/programs your talking about where that kind of language is used, but I'd love to see some clips.
thats a great point id love it if NASL or MLG ran think before you speak commercials inbetween games it would go a long way to eliminating this kind of language
What people need to remember is that we are for the most part catering to a younger generation here, our generation does not think rape or nigger is as offensive as our parents nor their parents. We have grown up hearing these words in other context than "Shine my shoes you damn nigger" or "Im gonna rape you you dirty woman".
This might in some peoples eyes be a bad thing in the way that we get less compassionate about rape or racism. This is NOT the case, however my view is that you should be able to joke about just about anything. I got black friends who jokes around with black stereotypes all the time. I got female friends who joke about rape. Now does this mean they think racism or rape is ok? No, of course not. But as Destiny put it, you need to see the context in which said words are spoken.
It's been common for a long time in sports to use diferent slurs and "taboo" words, calling eachother this and that. We are no different and our generation needs to embrace the fact that we dont scream in horror from hearing a word like rape.
But lets be honest here, hearing someone say "Holy fuck did he just survive that timing push?!" is so much for exciting than hearing "Well, he did a very good job defending that timing attack my dear sir." Using some curse words and such shows excitement and engagement in what you are seeing, it shows that you care and are as into it as the people who watch is from home. No, you dont have to say fuck or shit every other sentence, and if you are that kind of person who just doesnt use curse words then of course you shouldnt "fake" it but a normal person uses them now and again and there should be no shame in using them.
Furthermore being able to joke around with words like nigger or rape "de-tensions" them and make them less loaded. Rape and racism is not funny, jokes involving it are tho. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE FUCKING JOKES!
SC2 (and bw) are a niche group, and frankly one of the nicest and groups out there... we are what we are... why are we always telling ourselves to refrom and grow up so that outsider can accept us?
Really? Be who we are, enjoy what we do, and how. Yes, think about it and be self aware as well but really, but be who the fuck you and and enjoy yourself while raping some nerds online.
Kind of funny how much rage is being tossed around in the thread, and how dependent some people are on putting down others to boost their popularity. Seeing people trying to discredit incontrol's MLG wins based on what strategies he used is hilarious. Luck doesn't take you to the top 4 of a national tournament. Abusive strategies/risks are part of the game, it isn't visible to random scrubs who don't know what the meta-game is, but it's something every pro needs to consider.
That being said
I really enjoyed the last incontrol episode of SOTG, he will be missed! My Tuesday nights are going to be much duller from now on
Good luck at MLG incontrol, I'll be rooting for you!
On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
That's exactly what I think. I also think it's hypocritical that Incontrol says I don't have a valid perspective on what is an accomplishment. In the very show this thread is based on, he's repeatedly stated that it's unfair to attack himself or Tyler for being worse than the koreans they criticize, but then he does precisely the same thing to me.
Teamliquid wouldn't be very popular if everytime a poster tried to commentate on player that was better than them, they were shot down.
You posted HALF of what I said and postulated like it was my opinion or what I said, shame on you.
No, I said that tyler and I don't have to be better than MC to criticize him because WE ARE STILL PROGAMERS. WE SPEND 10000000000000x MORE TIME WITH THIS GAME THAN YOU + 10 of you closest friends.
That is NOT the same as you, some completely random hater who ALWAYS posts about how bad I am stating once again that you think you are some kind of an authority on the subject.
Do NOT speak for me in the future. You have an inability to consider my thoughts or opinions in anything but some hugely tainted light and it is getting old.
Sorry, but when do you have to be included in a group to comment on the group? The majority of sports casters are not professional athletes, so their opinion is ipso facto meaningless? Ecomonomists aren't necessarily bankers or businessmen. Political theorists and commentators usually aren't politicians. But you are saying a person cannot make a meanigful observation without being included within the group and therefore have not been granted special authority? Nonsense.
Gamers who are not pros can make informed and educated observations and comments. Knowledge and application are not mutually inclusive.
On June 02 2011 02:28 Galleon.frigate wrote: Have to say, Jibba just won the discission
SC2 (and bw) are a niche group, and frankly one of the nicest and groups out there... we are what we are... why are we always telling ourselves to refrom and grow up so that outsider can accept us?
Really? Be who we are, enjoy what we do, and how. Yes, think about it and be self aware as well but really, but be who the fuck you and and enjoy yourself while raping some nerds online.
This point is pretty poignant. I think it's what a lot of people are coming around to. There's no reason to mold ourselves in a palatable bites for the masses. Let's let SC grow by people coming to us, instead of the other way around.
Sponsors/pros might feel differently because of the money involved but I think the numbers are with us.
Humans are the only race in the universe who could evolve from something like Spartans, to people who have PTSD at the way someone's vocal chords are making the air vibrate.
I've never done this, so I'd like to thank SotG for their great work for the community, and all of the players who came on the show to give us a piece of their mind, when they could have been using that time bettering their game, I really appreciate it, and I'm sure most of the people in this thread do too.
ARGL, I hadn't listened to today's sotg, and did they bring the rape discussion AGAIN ? Seriously ? We don't care ! People could think we care because people talk a lot about it on the forums, but people talk about it because they love drama and love arguing, not because they care about this stupid subject ><
On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
That's exactly what I think. I also think it's hypocritical that Incontrol says I don't have a valid perspective on what is an accomplishment. In the very show this thread is based on, he's repeatedly stated that it's unfair to attack himself or Tyler for being worse than the koreans they criticize, but then he does precisely the same thing to me.
Teamliquid wouldn't be very popular if everytime a poster tried to commentate on player that was better than them, they were shot down.
You posted HALF of what I said and postulated like it was my opinion or what I said, shame on you.
No, I said that tyler and I don't have to be better than MC to criticize him because WE ARE STILL PROGAMERS. WE SPEND 10000000000000x MORE TIME WITH THIS GAME THAN YOU + 10 of you closest friends.
That is NOT the same as you, some completely random hater who ALWAYS posts about how bad I am stating once again that you think you are some kind of an authority on the subject.
Do NOT speak for me in the future. You have an inability to consider my thoughts or opinions in anything but some hugely tainted light and it is getting old.
Sorry, but when do you have to be included in a group to comment on the group? The majority of sports casters are not professional athletes, so their opinion is ipso facto meaningless? Ecomonomists aren't necessarily bankers or businessmen. Political theorists and commentators usually aren't politicians. But you are saying a person cannot make a meanigful observation without being included within the group and therefore have not been granted special authority? Nonsense.
Gamers who are not pros can make informed and educated observations and comments. Knowledge and application are not mutually inclusive.
There is a reason the very same panel you use as an example is not comprised of a bunch of random people that have no experience within the field. They are ALL former coaches, players or something... even if their only claim to knowledge is that they are professional analysts that spend all day viewing games and crunching the numbers.
You actually shot yourself in the foot with your own example.
On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
That's exactly what I think. I also think it's hypocritical that Incontrol says I don't have a valid perspective on what is an accomplishment. In the very show this thread is based on, he's repeatedly stated that it's unfair to attack himself or Tyler for being worse than the koreans they criticize, but then he does precisely the same thing to me.
Teamliquid wouldn't be very popular if everytime a poster tried to commentate on player that was better than them, they were shot down.
You posted HALF of what I said and postulated like it was my opinion or what I said, shame on you.
No, I said that tyler and I don't have to be better than MC to criticize him because WE ARE STILL PROGAMERS. WE SPEND 10000000000000x MORE TIME WITH THIS GAME THAN YOU + 10 of you closest friends.
That is NOT the same as you, some completely random hater who ALWAYS posts about how bad I am stating once again that you think you are some kind of an authority on the subject.
Do NOT speak for me in the future. You have an inability to consider my thoughts or opinions in anything but some hugely tainted light and it is getting old.
The distinction you're trying to draw is nonsensical and transparently designed so you can criticize whoever you want without repercussion, but at the same time have Carte Blanche to insult anyone who tries to criticize you.
When, in your most esteemed opinion, do I earn the right to criticize you. Do I need to play three hours a day? Four? Five? Ten? Does stream-watching add to the required hour total? Maybe there a .3 multiplier for that? Is there a one LAN tournament threshold? Or do three online tournaments equal a LAN?
Or maybe it's when I get my very own fourth place at MLG?
Also, I don't always post how bad you are. You have a issue where you only notice where people post bad things about you. If you read the MLG thread where you placed fourth, I defended your play when many others mocked you for cheesing. Of course, if you did notice when people compliment you, you wouldn't be able to characterize them as "random haters" and dismiss them when they criticize you.
On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
That's exactly what I think. I also think it's hypocritical that Incontrol says I don't have a valid perspective on what is an accomplishment. In the very show this thread is based on, he's repeatedly stated that it's unfair to attack himself or Tyler for being worse than the koreans they criticize, but then he does precisely the same thing to me.
Teamliquid wouldn't be very popular if everytime a poster tried to commentate on player that was better than them, they were shot down.
You posted HALF of what I said and postulated like it was my opinion or what I said, shame on you.
No, I said that tyler and I don't have to be better than MC to criticize him because WE ARE STILL PROGAMERS. WE SPEND 10000000000000x MORE TIME WITH THIS GAME THAN YOU + 10 of you closest friends.
That is NOT the same as you, some completely random hater who ALWAYS posts about how bad I am stating once again that you think you are some kind of an authority on the subject.
Do NOT speak for me in the future. You have an inability to consider my thoughts or opinions in anything but some hugely tainted light and it is getting old.
Sorry, but when do you have to be included in a group to comment on the group? The majority of sports casters are not professional athletes, so their opinion is ipso facto meaningless? Ecomonomists aren't necessarily bankers or businessmen. Political theorists and commentators usually aren't politicians. But you are saying a person cannot make a meanigful observation without being included within the group and therefore have not been granted special authority? Nonsense.
Gamers who are not pros can make informed and educated observations and comments. Knowledge and application are not mutually inclusive.
There is a reason the very same panel you use as an example is not comprised of a bunch of random people that have no experience within the field. They are ALL former coaches, players or something... even if their only claim to knowledge is that they are professional analysts that spend all day viewing games and crunching the numbers.
You actually shot yourself in the foot with your own example.
So basically, 'Screw you guys ima PRO and the FACE OF ESPORTS'
On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
That's exactly what I think. I also think it's hypocritical that Incontrol says I don't have a valid perspective on what is an accomplishment. In the very show this thread is based on, he's repeatedly stated that it's unfair to attack himself or Tyler for being worse than the koreans they criticize, but then he does precisely the same thing to me.
Teamliquid wouldn't be very popular if everytime a poster tried to commentate on player that was better than them, they were shot down.
You posted HALF of what I said and postulated like it was my opinion or what I said, shame on you.
No, I said that tyler and I don't have to be better than MC to criticize him because WE ARE STILL PROGAMERS. WE SPEND 10000000000000x MORE TIME WITH THIS GAME THAN YOU + 10 of you closest friends.
That is NOT the same as you, some completely random hater who ALWAYS posts about how bad I am stating once again that you think you are some kind of an authority on the subject.
Do NOT speak for me in the future. You have an inability to consider my thoughts or opinions in anything but some hugely tainted light and it is getting old.
Sorry, but when do you have to be included in a group to comment on the group? The majority of sports casters are not professional athletes, so their opinion is ipso facto meaningless? Ecomonomists aren't necessarily bankers or businessmen. Political theorists and commentators usually aren't politicians. But you are saying a person cannot make a meanigful observation without being included within the group and therefore have not been granted special authority? Nonsense.
Gamers who are not pros can make informed and educated observations and comments. Knowledge and application are not mutually inclusive.
There is a reason the very same panel you use as an example is not comprised of a bunch of random people that have no experience within the field. They are ALL former coaches, players or something... even if their only claim to knowledge is that they are professional analysts that spend all day viewing games and crunching the numbers.
You actually shot yourself in the foot with your own example.
Look everyone who watches a lot of SC2 or even SCBW knows about SC2. Everyone can commentate on the game and the players. However, we must realize pro players do have more knowledge on the games than us "average joes". For me at least, I thought MC was basically the most godly toss around. When Tyler said that MC is just a toss with bunch of timing attacks and takes a lot of risks I was seriously like "wtf you don't know what your talking about". Guess what after I heard that and watched MC play, guess what Tyler was right. He was knocked out of world championship for being risky.
Pros just knows the game a lot more than usd because they just plays a lot more but like us they can commentate on players better than them.
So iNcontroL is just saying that he doesn't respect the opinion of non-pro gamers as regards criticism of pro-gamers.
It's not very shocking. And it's not going to stop non-pro gamers from having opinions about SC2 pro-gamers and expressing them.
I don't think iNcontroL is going to win if he wants to stop people from saying what they think about him as a player. It's a bit futile to try to achieve that, no? And if the point is just to say "I don't respect your opinion" well is it necessary to keep saying that over and over? Surely ignoring the opinions you don't like is a better strategy.
On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
That's exactly what I think. I also think it's hypocritical that Incontrol says I don't have a valid perspective on what is an accomplishment. In the very show this thread is based on, he's repeatedly stated that it's unfair to attack himself or Tyler for being worse than the koreans they criticize, but then he does precisely the same thing to me.
Teamliquid wouldn't be very popular if everytime a poster tried to commentate on player that was better than them, they were shot down.
You posted HALF of what I said and postulated like it was my opinion or what I said, shame on you.
No, I said that tyler and I don't have to be better than MC to criticize him because WE ARE STILL PROGAMERS. WE SPEND 10000000000000x MORE TIME WITH THIS GAME THAN YOU + 10 of you closest friends.
That is NOT the same as you, some completely random hater who ALWAYS posts about how bad I am stating once again that you think you are some kind of an authority on the subject.
Do NOT speak for me in the future. You have an inability to consider my thoughts or opinions in anything but some hugely tainted light and it is getting old.
The distinction you're trying to draw is nonsensical and transparently designed so you can criticize whoever you want without repercussion, but at the same time have Carte Blanche to insult anyone who tries to criticize you.
When, in your most esteemed opinion, do I earn the right to criticize you. Do I need to play three hours a day? Four? Five? Ten? Does stream-watching add to the required hour total? Maybe there a .3 multiplier for that? Is there a one LAN tournament threshold? Or do three online tournaments equal a LAN?
Or maybe it's when I get my very own fourth place at MLG?
Also, I don't always post how bad you are. You have a issue where you only notice where people post bad things about you. If you read the MLG thread where you placed fourth, I defended your play when many others mocked you for cheesing. Of course, if you did notice when people compliment you, you wouldn't be able to characterize them as "random haters" and dismiss them when they criticize you.
I feel that a person only earns the right to criticize someone when they have the knowledge to do so. If you know how to do something even in theory(if plausable) then you have the right to criticize someone about that. But if you are not 100% sure that what someone did is wrong then you do not have the right to criticize them about it.
I can see how being on SoTG regularly can cause some sponsors to raise their eyebrows at it. A lot of shit talk happens on it, which is why we watch it. But InControl has a lot of other projects he is associated with, Team EG, NASL, ITG, Anna, himself and all the associated sponsors. So when he says something, it is immediately associated with those entities as well. Right or wrong, that's just how the world turns.
It's unfortunate because what I really like about e-sports is how accessible and real the stars are. They don't have coached responses, they aren't prepared with cookie cutter answers you have in most pro sports. You get honest, genuine unscripted answers and opinions. I want that and it's very cool thing for us as a community to have.
EPT
