On June 02 2011 01:11 iNcontroL wrote: Sheth is great. But still has fewer / less accomplishments than I do in big tourneys (MLG).
I wonder how long you are gonna use your 4th place in MLG to defend yourself as a top player. If you face the facts you have 40% win rate in your TLPD, with no top3 finishes in any tournament. 166# GM with 52% win rate.
You are a great commentator though and hilarious in sotg.
Nony lookin' good this week lol... I'm gonna miss Incontrol as a regular on the podcast, don't know if it was mentioned (only about 15 minutes through the latest episode) but I hope he can return as a guest occasionally.
this pretty much sums up the debate as far as personal streaming goes
of course if you're representing a tournament / sponsors for a show you shouldn't say nigger live ... but why is this even a discussion as far as personal streaming goes ? as long as the stream in question isn't specifically designed to bring people to esports who gives a shit if they get offended ?
solution : stop watching that particular stream ? am i missing something ?
On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
That's exactly what I think. I also think it's hypocritical that Incontrol says I don't have a valid perspective on what is an accomplishment. In the very show this thread is based on, he's repeatedly stated that it's unfair to attack himself or Tyler for being worse than the koreans they criticize, but then he does precisely the same thing to me.
Teamliquid wouldn't be very popular if everytime a poster tried to commentate on player that was better than them, they were shot down.
Personally, I think you do have a completely valid perspective. Validity and invalidity generally don't pertain to opinions. I also think your (valid) perspective is insane, but becoming more common within the community. Let me put translate this type of perspective to (hopefully) explain why it is that your post lacks common sense.
Pretend for a moment that I believe Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player of all time, and none after him have even come close. I can draw my line of where "good" players are and where "bad" players are, and because it's opinion, no one can tell me I'm objectively wrong. So, let's say that I decide Michael Jordan was a "good" player, that the league MVP each year is a "decent" player, and that everyone else who has ever touched a basketball other than those select few are shit. I weigh more than 250 pounds, am white, and am not a hair taller than 6 feet. I don't play basketball professionally or coach basketball on any level. Because my opinion is my own, no one can tell me my judgements are objectively wrong - but doesn't the fact that this person could walk up to kobe bryant and say "man kobe, you're pretty shitty at basketball, why don't you practice some huh? What? Don't tell me you're *proud* of those skills? *SCOFF*" sound just a tad insane to you?
How is this viewpoint different from yours - other than the fact that the person above doesn't have anonymity to hide behind once he puts himself out there to say something ludicrous?
Under those circumstances Kobe would fail against your standards, nothing anyone can do about that and no amount of arguing by Kobe would change this as long as the standards don't change. The problem here is that what Kobe wants is to be criticized according to different standards, so of course he would argue for a more objective set of standards to be measured against. Unless he was an idiot that is, then he might just say your opinion is flat out invalid without addressing the real issue.
Watching the VOD now. IdrA says if he is doing a pro casting position like NASL that he will not be "him." That he will change himself for that position. Then why did he make that nasty comment about Cruncher being overweight, when Cruncher went up to him at an event and saying hi? Sounds like he was bringing his personal issues into NASL, with him being him during a show that I pay money for it. I don't want to see his little personal drama fest. That comment probably cost NASL my money for next season...
On June 02 2011 03:20 Nizzy wrote: Watching the VOD now. IdrA says if he is doing a pro casting position like NASL that he will not be "him." That he will change himself for that position. Then why did he make that nasty comment about Cruncher being overweight, when Cruncher went up to him at an event and saying hi? Sounds like he was bringing his personal issues into NASL, with him being him during a show that I pay money for it. I don't want to see his little personal drama fest. That comment probably cost NASL my money for next season...
this pretty much sums up the debate as far as personal streaming goes
of course if you're representing a tournament / sponsors for a show you shouldn't say nigger live ... but why is this even a discussion as far as personal streaming goes ? as long as the stream in question isn't specifically designed to bring people to esports who gives a shit if they get offended ?
solution : stop watching that particular stream ? am i missing something ?
That's not the argument. The argument is that someone, an outsider to the SC2 scene, sees an interview from Destiny or another streamer like him and thinks "Oh! I should check this guy out..." and they go to his stream/website/twitter and they get exposed to this stuff and it leaves a bad connotation about the SC2 Community... That's not good for the growth of E-Sports or the community.
No, Destiny doesn't "represent SC2" but he does just out of the fact of how much publicity he gets because of his stream.
On June 01 2011 22:22 flodeskum wrote: I personally don't like people censoring their language for anything. But I do understand that it is an American thing and cursing is sort of a big deal over there. So I can fully support them doing that at sponsored events or tournament casts.
However I completely disagree with incontrol saying that destiny has a responsibility to do the same on his personal stream because he now represents the community. Who decides when you cross over from angry guy streaming starcraft to community representitive? Should all streamers be censoring themselves or only the popular ones? In my opinion the contents of a personal stream represents the streamer and nobody else.
The only exception I would make is the word nigger. I just don't think a white person should be using that word (cue the "omg black people can say it, why can't I??? hAXX!?"). I don't think it is a big deal for the decendants of people that were literally owned to own a single word. Just let them have it. But feel free to say anything else
Fuck you nigger I am black, so its ok to use an "lightning" word
Naw, I'm not really black, I'm so white that CRT radiation appears to be coming from my skin. The concept that words are restricted based on race is stupid and is in fact racist. If any person says i cant say something because of the color of my skin that is racist. I don't give a fuck if a person calls me a cracker, and that they authentically think i am lesser of a human being because I'm white. I will not be offended by being called a cracker, i will not care, because i know its not true. The truth of the matter is that black people shouldn't care either, because they should know its not true.
Hell, i call my gay friends flaming faggots jokingly because they don't take themselves seriously, and i actually asked if it offended them, and they don't care because i'm actually comfortable with them being gay, and I'm not doing it in a way to hurt them or degrade them for being gay.
Calling someone a nigger does not instantly degrade them, and if you think it does then society still has a long way to go, its the intent of the speaker that makes a word like nigger bad, good, or neutral.
It's easy for some white skinny nerd posting on an internet forum to post his thoughts on the word "ni**er" and "gay". Just because you have an anecdote about your gay friend doesn't make that language alright for general consumption. The crux of the debate isn't about personal preference, but appealing to a larger audience. Because in your sheltered gaming lifestyle you feel it's ok for those words to be used, doesn't mean the general public does. When they start using the words you write about on broadcast television you may have a point. The american public has already had this debate decades ago. On a purely philosophical level I agree with you, but incontrol is right - if you want to appeal to a bigger audience you need to think before you speak.
IMO this whole debate is borne from the fact the main demographic on TL is 17-19 yr olds who really haven't been out in the real world and are still dealing with their rebellion in general. Rebellion from authoritative figures such as parents,teachers, etc.. Incontrol is getting hated on because he's the authoritative figure in this debate who is trying to help the community, however some people can't see through their blind rage...
Have you seen mainstream media? I think you guys are forgetting that the mainstream as of late is extremely offensive and provocative. We should not be trying to appeal to 30+ because it would be a waste of resources.
The issue is marketability, is starcraft 2's chances to become a main stream success inhibited by streamers who use the words rape, nigger, faggot, and gay? I doubt it, I think the market has a place for people who speak like that, but not at professional events. Destiny is making a living from being provocative, while day9 is not that controversial or provocative and is making a living that way. The market can obviously accept it in its current state.
Now here's something to think about, what if there was a player in the community that was truly racist, and talked about hating black people all the time on his stream, and about how women should be second class citizens, etc. etc. more offensive shit. Do you think he would be accepted in the community, if their was someone like that? Hell no, of course not, because that straight up hurts almost everyone that we could possibly market too, and that is just a terrible person. No one wants to be associated with a racist and sexist. Ive seen sports shows, they have professional clean cut sport shows and news, and they also have sports shows where they do use vulgar language and they go in depth, and their are people that watch that stuff too.
I think they can co-exist within the market, because they already are. Also, what demographic would we turn away that we actually have a chance of getting? I mean, do people realize that we are playing a video game, and thus the potential demographics that we can appeal to are already lowered, and also tend to be gamers. I think the most likely demographic that we are going to appeal to are the console players 13+ that already understand the context of words like rape. The concept that starcraft 2 Is gonna appeal to non gamers in mass is far fetched to me, so it feels like this proper language bullshit won't benefit us much at all or possibly hurt us because some people wont be able to go find contents like destinies.
What "mainstream media" are you talking about? Find me any legitimate quote from a mainstream media outlet in which they use any of the words you mention without qualifying it as hate speech. I don't think you know what is considered "mainstream media". Do you consider ABC mainstream media? Have you seen the campaign being run during primetime television telling people NOT to use the word gay as an insult? I really don't know what shows/programs your talking about where that kind of language is used, but I'd love to see some clips.
Chris Rock on HBO bigger and blacker, a very mainstream actor and comedian.(also did you know, the certain words are excluded from standard cable due to broadcast regulations)
Also I'm not saying that tournaments become people making "vulgar jokes" I'm saying that they can co exist like they do now.
They both exist, its not the predominant thing, But the use of nigger is part of mainstream culture, and appears from time to time in mainstream media. Oh yeah, and hating gay people is mainstream under religious context, I'm sure you have seen that in the news.
HBO is cable, that's hardly mainstream media. Chris Rock is a famous actor, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say. When Chris Rock goes on Conan, Letterman or Leno he doesn't speak like he does on Bigger and Blacker. When people talk about mainstream media they usually mean ABC, NBC, FOX and media outlets that can be broadcast where the end-user doesn't pay for the content.
this pretty much sums up the debate as far as personal streaming goes
of course if you're representing a tournament / sponsors for a show you shouldn't say nigger live ... but why is this even a discussion as far as personal streaming goes ? as long as the stream in question isn't specifically designed to bring people to esports who gives a shit if they get offended ?
solution : stop watching that particular stream ? am i missing something ?
That's not the argument. The argument is that someone, an outsider to the SC2 scene, sees an interview from Destiny or another streamer like him and thinks "Oh! I should check this guy out..." and they go to his stream/website/twitter and they get exposed to this stuff and it leaves a bad connotation about the SC2 Community... That's not good for the growth of E-Sports or the community.
That's just consequentialism. In your hypothetical it wouldn't further ESPORTS (whether that's true or not is debatable) but at least it's honest. That's the product Destiny creates. If he left his mic off, he wouldn't have 4,000 viewers right now. You can't tell him to clean himself up because he's a representative now, when the primary reason that he became a representative is because he wouldn't clean himself up. That just makes no sense.
this pretty much sums up the debate as far as personal streaming goes
of course if you're representing a tournament / sponsors for a show you shouldn't say nigger live ... but why is this even a discussion as far as personal streaming goes ? as long as the stream in question isn't specifically designed to bring people to esports who gives a shit if they get offended ?
solution : stop watching that particular stream ? am i missing something ?
That's not the argument. The argument is that someone, an outsider to the SC2 scene, sees an interview from Destiny or another streamer like him and thinks "Oh! I should check this guy out..." and they go to his stream/website/twitter and they get exposed to this stuff and it leaves a bad connotation about the SC2 Community... That's not good for the growth of E-Sports or the community.
That's just consequentialism. In your hypothetical it wouldn't further ESPORTS (whether that's true or not is debatable) but at least it's honest. That's the product Destiny creates. If he left his mic off, he wouldn't have 4,000 viewers right now. You can't tell him to clean himself up because he's a representative now, when the primary reason that he became a representative is because he wouldn't clean himself up. That just makes no sense.
I'm just saying that the counter argument from Geoff is a valid concern... and a fairly large one at that.
On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
That's exactly what I think. I also think it's hypocritical that Incontrol says I don't have a valid perspective on what is an accomplishment. In the very show this thread is based on, he's repeatedly stated that it's unfair to attack himself or Tyler for being worse than the koreans they criticize, but then he does precisely the same thing to me.
Teamliquid wouldn't be very popular if everytime a poster tried to commentate on player that was better than them, they were shot down.
You posted HALF of what I said and postulated like it was my opinion or what I said, shame on you.
No, I said that tyler and I don't have to be better than MC to criticize him because WE ARE STILL PROGAMERS. WE SPEND 10000000000000x MORE TIME WITH THIS GAME THAN YOU + 10 of you closest friends.
That is NOT the same as you, some completely random hater who ALWAYS posts about how bad I am stating once again that you think you are some kind of an authority on the subject.
Do NOT speak for me in the future. You have an inability to consider my thoughts or opinions in anything but some hugely tainted light and it is getting old.
Sorry, but when do you have to be included in a group to comment on the group? The majority of sports casters are not professional athletes, so their opinion is ipso facto meaningless? Ecomonomists aren't necessarily bankers or businessmen. Political theorists and commentators usually aren't politicians. But you are saying a person cannot make a meanigful observation without being included within the group and therefore have not been granted special authority? Nonsense.
Gamers who are not pros can make informed and educated observations and comments. Knowledge and application are not mutually inclusive.
I don't think you took the time to read the quote chain because that isn't what Incontrol is saying at all.
The other guy is saying that Incontrol and Tyler have no right to criticize any aspect of MC's play because they haven't won as much stuff as him, which is just absurd.
On June 01 2011 22:22 flodeskum wrote: I personally don't like people censoring their language for anything. But I do understand that it is an American thing and cursing is sort of a big deal over there. So I can fully support them doing that at sponsored events or tournament casts.
However I completely disagree with incontrol saying that destiny has a responsibility to do the same on his personal stream because he now represents the community. Who decides when you cross over from angry guy streaming starcraft to community representitive? Should all streamers be censoring themselves or only the popular ones? In my opinion the contents of a personal stream represents the streamer and nobody else.
The only exception I would make is the word nigger. I just don't think a white person should be using that word (cue the "omg black people can say it, why can't I??? hAXX!?"). I don't think it is a big deal for the decendants of people that were literally owned to own a single word. Just let them have it. But feel free to say anything else
Fuck you nigger I am black, so its ok to use an "lightning" word
Naw, I'm not really black, I'm so white that CRT radiation appears to be coming from my skin. The concept that words are restricted based on race is stupid and is in fact racist. If any person says i cant say something because of the color of my skin that is racist. I don't give a fuck if a person calls me a cracker, and that they authentically think i am lesser of a human being because I'm white. I will not be offended by being called a cracker, i will not care, because i know its not true. The truth of the matter is that black people shouldn't care either, because they should know its not true.
Hell, i call my gay friends flaming faggots jokingly because they don't take themselves seriously, and i actually asked if it offended them, and they don't care because i'm actually comfortable with them being gay, and I'm not doing it in a way to hurt them or degrade them for being gay.
Calling someone a nigger does not instantly degrade them, and if you think it does then society still has a long way to go, its the intent of the speaker that makes a word like nigger bad, good, or neutral.
It's easy for some white skinny nerd posting on an internet forum to post his thoughts on the word "ni**er" and "gay". Just because you have an anecdote about your gay friend doesn't make that language alright for general consumption. The crux of the debate isn't about personal preference, but appealing to a larger audience. Because in your sheltered gaming lifestyle you feel it's ok for those words to be used, doesn't mean the general public does. When they start using the words you write about on broadcast television you may have a point. The american public has already had this debate decades ago. On a purely philosophical level I agree with you, but incontrol is right - if you want to appeal to a bigger audience you need to think before you speak.
IMO this whole debate is borne from the fact the main demographic on TL is 17-19 yr olds who really haven't been out in the real world and are still dealing with their rebellion in general. Rebellion from authoritative figures such as parents,teachers, etc.. Incontrol is getting hated on because he's the authoritative figure in this debate who is trying to help the community, however some people can't see through their blind rage...
Have you seen mainstream media? I think you guys are forgetting that the mainstream as of late is extremely offensive and provocative. We should not be trying to appeal to 30+ because it would be a waste of resources.
The issue is marketability, is starcraft 2's chances to become a main stream success inhibited by streamers who use the words rape, nigger, faggot, and gay? I doubt it, I think the market has a place for people who speak like that, but not at professional events. Destiny is making a living from being provocative, while day9 is not that controversial or provocative and is making a living that way. The market can obviously accept it in its current state.
Now here's something to think about, what if there was a player in the community that was truly racist, and talked about hating black people all the time on his stream, and about how women should be second class citizens, etc. etc. more offensive shit. Do you think he would be accepted in the community, if their was someone like that? Hell no, of course not, because that straight up hurts almost everyone that we could possibly market too, and that is just a terrible person. No one wants to be associated with a racist and sexist. Ive seen sports shows, they have professional clean cut sport shows and news, and they also have sports shows where they do use vulgar language and they go in depth, and their are people that watch that stuff too.
I think they can co-exist within the market, because they already are. Also, what demographic would we turn away that we actually have a chance of getting? I mean, do people realize that we are playing a video game, and thus the potential demographics that we can appeal to are already lowered, and also tend to be gamers. I think the most likely demographic that we are going to appeal to are the console players 13+ that already understand the context of words like rape. The concept that starcraft 2 Is gonna appeal to non gamers in mass is far fetched to me, so it feels like this proper language bullshit won't benefit us much at all or possibly hurt us because some people wont be able to go find contents like destinies.
What "mainstream media" are you talking about? Find me any legitimate quote from a mainstream media outlet in which they use any of the words you mention without qualifying it as hate speech. I don't think you know what is considered "mainstream media". Do you consider ABC mainstream media? Have you seen the campaign being run during primetime television telling people NOT to use the word gay as an insult? I really don't know what shows/programs your talking about where that kind of language is used, but I'd love to see some clips.
Chris Rock on HBO bigger and blacker, a very mainstream actor and comedian.(also did you know, the certain words are excluded from standard cable due to broadcast regulations)
Also I'm not saying that tournaments become people making "vulgar jokes" I'm saying that they can co exist like they do now.
They both exist, its not the predominant thing, But the use of nigger is part of mainstream culture, and appears from time to time in mainstream media. Oh yeah, and hating gay people is mainstream under religious context, I'm sure you have seen that in the news.
HBO is cable, that's hardly mainstream media. Chris Rock is a famous actor, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say. When Chris Rock goes on Conan, Letterman or Leno he doesn't speak like he does on Bigger and Blacker. When people talk about mainstream media they usually mean ABC, NBC, FOX and media outlets that can be broadcast where the end-user doesn't pay for the content.
So what exactly is your argument? It's alright to swear on his own show but not in interviews and talk shows? Wasn't there resounding consensus on the show about this?
Just finished watching this episode of SoTG. First of. It was a really nice way to say goodbye to Geoff and I loved the fact that JP made a memorial video! I wish Geoff the best of luck with all of his plans in the future and thank you for all the effort you have put into the starcraft community so far and will do in the future!
So some of my thoughts about some of the themes. First of the language which many people have commented here and seems to be a bigger thing than I would have thought it to be. Using offensive language is of course not to be tolerated when someone is casting big tournaments like the MLG, NASL etc. Everyone on the show was agreeing with this, even Geoff and Destiny agreed upon this. Now, should Destiny change his way of speaking on his own stream? Of course not, if he wants to talk the way he talks he should continue with it. I am not the one to use offensive language, and try to use it as little as possible, but what Destiny does on his stream is really only up to him. Yes, some people might get offended, but if they do they can quit his stream and never watch it again. But the community needs some people that dares to go places not everyone goes. So we will have iNcontrol on one side and Destiny on the other side of the language bar, but this is needed. If we didn't have these people on opposite sides and everyone was in the middle every player would seem the same. We need opposites because opposites bring different people into the game. If every player was like iNcontrol we would only have his fanbase joining, and my guess is that a lot of viewers like Destiny's style better than Geoffs. This isn't necesserly based just upon language usage. A lot of players on this forum doesn't like Husky for example, but there are SOOO many people who loves him and watches him. We need different people attracting viewers into the game if we want the community to grow, even though not everyone will agree upon the way players/casters get them in. Destiny brings some, iNcontrol brongs some other and so does Husky, TotalBuiscit and Day9 and everyone else. If everyone had been the same the viewerbase of starcraft would have been a lot smaller! Everyone will not agree on every aspect, and that is good for a community!
Wow that was one large wall of text on the language thing and I ain't done yet :p
So they spoke a little bit about being a girl and all the shit they get in the community. I am not a girl so I can't speak for them, but my thoughts about this is that many people, often the ones that speak the loudest and meanest, are idiots... Why hate on some people that does good things for the community. Anna does a great job with her interviews, and I have just recently started following Leah's work, but she also does a great job! So what if they're not the best players? They admit that they aren't, but they like what they are doing, they like this game. That should be enough! Haters are gonna hate and I like to think that for everyone that says something negative there are always at least two people that think what you're doing is great, but they're not as vocal about it. Girls have to fight harder to get the respect they deserve, but Anna and Leah have worked hard and has at least earned my respect, and you guys should also give them yours!
Man, again, I wasn't aware I was so engaged in this when I started typing, but yeah I felt I needed to get this out. I love SoTG, Geoff will be missed, but now is the chance to get someone new on the show and thereby getting some new input on thoughts and so on. Shoutout to the people that says positive things so that people know that we as the community like their work! If you haven't got anything nice to say (or constructive critique), don't say it at all!
I apologize in advance for bringing this retarded shit up again, but iNcontroL's argument was so asinine as well as Destiny's counter-argument that I feel it needs addressing. First, iNcontroL isn't a role model. He called himself, and the "faces of ESPORTS, that on WoC and I just about raped a kitten out of frustration because it was such a stupid and pretentious thing to say. He is an entertainer in an ultra niche entertainment industry market. Whether SC2 actually goes mainstream (which it won't) is neither here nor there, but it needs to be clarified that he's an entertainer first and foremost, even as a player.
The idea of censoring entertainers is nothing new, as it's been happening to comedians for at least decades. Unfunny people tell them what topics are off limits, regardless of context, without understanding that absurdity and personal pain are usually what drive comedy. That's what makes Richard Pryor a god and Jeff Foxworthy a fucking idiot. Deep down, I think iNcontroL knows this. After all, he's a pretty funny guy and he knows that shit like "DICK THE GROUND" is pretty funny, but he's been blinded by the fact that he's the "face" of something and has to sell it. And that makes sense in a lot of cases, and on that point even Destiny agrees. When you go into a job interview, you change your presentation so that it is more formal and less offensive/edgy than a casual setting. But that's where things fall apart, because Destiny isn't interviewing to impress people, he already has the job.
IdrA's fans giggle like crazy when he calls someone a 'faggot' and Destiny's love 'baneling rape.' So it's not a popularity/mainstream argument anymore, it's become an insanely backwards plea that the act of rape is so heinous that its verbal representation cannot be used in any non-serious manner, even by entertainers. It's the same with 'retard', 'nigger' and 'faggot' which have historically demeaning purposes. Not only does his ideal situation create a bizarre ever-expanding black hole of words that need to be ignored, for fear of aggravating someone in a personally charged way, but it ignores the nature and purpose of comedy in the first place. Comedy highlights absurdity and allows people to detach themselves from pain.
On WoC, iNc said you wouldn't find 'rape' funny if you visited a battered women's shelter, but I have, and I've done Take Back The Night and worked with rape survivors, and I still think 'rape' can be a funny word. And so did some of them! Not only is iNc imposing artificial limitations on how people should use words, but he's doing it on how people should feel about them as well. It's the same as telling Jews not to laugh at The Producers or that soldiers can't laugh when Colbert makes jokes about war and dying, because those are SERIOUS SUBJECTS WITH DEEP RAMIFICATIONS AND ARE THEREFORE NOT FUNNY. Except that's what makes them ripe for humor, though.
To me, it's actually more offensive to presume to speak for other people or when someone claims to be my representative. I hope most of us can agree that a bunch of white, male suburban nerds discussing the ethics of using 'nigger' and 'rape' is actually more offensive than the words themselves. It would be slightly hilarious if we gave in, however, since it's not like white middle class men have been given enough opportunities to set the status quo.
Destiny is an entertainer and he might not be catering to a diverse audience with personal connections to those words, but it doesn't matter. He's using them in a non-hateful way which he finds funny, and that's all he needs. The merit of his jokes/humor is irrelevant. The SUPER SERIOUS argument is silly and there's no justified reason to place words in an off-limit category for society. Personally? Sure, do what you want. But for everyone else to use? Fuck off and give me my words back. There might be some vague social obligation for Destiny to change his tongue, but there's no ethical or logical reasoning behind it.
And before anyone says these are "special cases," no, they're fucking not. iNcontroL said the word is off limits and not funny.
Implicit in the argument for E-Sports is that it should be fit for consumption by the public in order to grow. The links you offered are of television shows or comedy acts. Starcraft isn't scripted or written by a team of writers. When you post baseball or basketball broadcasts where they say "OMG did you see LeBron utterly rape Dirk with that crossover?!" then you may have a point.
Joe Rogan does it for MMA. Everything being talked about is part of the entertainment industry. There is no explicit difference between a pro gamer like Destiny and a comedian and, in fact, most of his fans would tell you that they watch his stream because of its comedic value.
You can argue that all sports are entertainment in the way you do. I don't think the MMA comparison rings true with Starcraft2. What incontrol is saying that is if we want to move forward as a community and bring more casual viewers people should be more aware of what they say. You'll still never find a basketball, baseball, soccer, golf, tennis, etc. etc. clip where they use ANY of the words you're talking about. But your youtube videos having people use the word rape have nothing to do with this debate.
Yes, that's exactly what all sports are. Athletes aren't paid by virtue of being athletic, they're paid because they entertain us well. It's precisely how advertising works.
I already addressed the rest of your post. If you want to argue that you shouldn't use those terms when selling to mainstream/popular audiences, then fine. Even Destiny agrees on that. When you go to a job interview, you sell yourself. NBA players only occasionally curse and use those words when giving press conferences. But in their personal time? In private practices or at a neighborhood court against friends? Of course they do. That's what Destiny's stream is.
Of course you can use those words and be a fucking dick or misogynistic asshole while using them, but you can also use them in an intelligent and poignant way.
NBA players get fined $50k-100k for using the word "faggot". You can't have it both ways, you can't say all sports are entertainment and therefore can use whatever language they like when I can point to virtually ALL of them and prove they don't. The reason that they don't is because their broadcasters have had this discussion decades ago. Literally decades ago, probably before you were even born. I know what Destiny's stream is, and I know what he is arguing, but whether Destiny knows it or not he is a spokesperson for Starcraft2 (he shouldn't have given an interview in Forbe's if he didn't want to be). And he should realize it helps the community for the greater good if such public figures didn't use those words.
I agree with Destiny on a purely philosophical level, but this is the real world and things are always how we think they should be.
all that needs to be done is to make sure that newcomers know that Destiny doesn't represent the scene and only represents himself personally, and i'm pretty sure they did that with the explicit tag. maybe make the explicit tag bigger, but im sure new viewers will understand that Destiny's got this explicit tag, these other streamers don't have an explicit tag, Destiny=/=SC2 community
On June 02 2011 01:11 iNcontroL wrote: Sheth is great. But still has fewer / less accomplishments than I do in big tourneys (MLG).
I wonder how long you are gonna use your 4th place in MLG to defend yourself as a top player. If you face the facts you have 40% win rate in your TLPD, with no top3 finishes in any tournament. 166# GM with 52% win rate.
You are a great commentator though and hilarious in sotg.
He doesn't need to "defend his spot". The reason he attempts to defend his spot and glorify people with a response is beyond me, honestly. His current accomplishments at MLG and NASL speak for themselves - he is just as much as a progamer as everybody else.
The only time "his spot" is in question is when people start their "Godzilla vs King Kong" arguments. AMG GUYS WHO WOULD WIN A FIGHT, FLASH OR INCONTROL?!
On June 02 2011 03:20 Nizzy wrote: Watching the VOD now. IdrA says if he is doing a pro casting position like NASL that he will not be "him." That he will change himself for that position. Then why did he make that nasty comment about Cruncher being overweight, when Cruncher went up to him at an event and saying hi? Sounds like he was bringing his personal issues into NASL, with him being him during a show that I pay money for it. I don't want to see his little personal drama fest. That comment probably cost NASL my money for next season...
he tries man, he tries
did you watch the cast at all? incontrol set him up and egged him on. NASL wanted to stir some shit, idra sensed that this was what the company wanted, so he made those comments.
I apologize in advance for bringing this retarded shit up again, but iNcontroL's argument was so asinine as well as Destiny's counter-argument that I feel it needs addressing. First, iNcontroL isn't a role model. He called himself, and the "faces of ESPORTS, that on WoC and I just about raped a kitten out of frustration because it was such a stupid and pretentious thing to say. He is an entertainer in an ultra niche entertainment industry market. Whether SC2 actually goes mainstream (which it won't) is neither here nor there, but it needs to be clarified that he's an entertainer first and foremost, even as a player.
The idea of censoring entertainers is nothing new, as it's been happening to comedians for at least decades. Unfunny people tell them what topics are off limits, regardless of context, without understanding that absurdity and personal pain are usually what drive comedy. That's what makes Richard Pryor a god and Jeff Foxworthy a fucking idiot. Deep down, I think iNcontroL knows this. After all, he's a pretty funny guy and he knows that shit like "DICK THE GROUND" is pretty funny, but he's been blinded by the fact that he's the "face" of something and has to sell it. And that makes sense in a lot of cases, and on that point even Destiny agrees. When you go into a job interview, you change your presentation so that it is more formal and less offensive/edgy than a casual setting. But that's where things fall apart, because Destiny isn't interviewing to impress people, he already has the job.
IdrA's fans giggle like crazy when he calls someone a 'faggot' and Destiny's love 'baneling rape.' So it's not a popularity/mainstream argument anymore, it's become an insanely backwards plea that the act of rape is so heinous that its verbal representation cannot be used in any non-serious manner, even by entertainers. It's the same with 'retard', 'nigger' and 'faggot' which have historically demeaning purposes. Not only does his ideal situation create a bizarre ever-expanding black hole of words that need to be ignored, for fear of aggravating someone in a personally charged way, but it ignores the nature and purpose of comedy in the first place. Comedy highlights absurdity and allows people to detach themselves from pain.
On WoC, iNc said you wouldn't find 'rape' funny if you visited a battered women's shelter, but I have, and I've done Take Back The Night and worked with rape survivors, and I still think 'rape' can be a funny word. And so did some of them! Not only is iNc imposing artificial limitations on how people should use words, but he's doing it on how people should feel about them as well. It's the same as telling Jews not to laugh at The Producers or that soldiers can't laugh when Colbert makes jokes about war and dying, because those are SERIOUS SUBJECTS WITH DEEP RAMIFICATIONS AND ARE THEREFORE NOT FUNNY. Except that's what makes them ripe for humor, though.
To me, it's actually more offensive to presume to speak for other people or when someone claims to be my representative. I hope most of us can agree that a bunch of white, male suburban nerds discussing the ethics of using 'nigger' and 'rape' is actually more offensive than the words themselves. It would be slightly hilarious if we gave in, however, since it's not like white middle class men have been given enough opportunities to set the status quo.
Destiny is an entertainer and he might not be catering to a diverse audience with personal connections to those words, but it doesn't matter. He's using them in a non-hateful way which he finds funny, and that's all he needs. The merit of his jokes/humor is irrelevant. The SUPER SERIOUS argument is silly and there's no justified reason to place words in an off-limit category for society. Personally? Sure, do what you want. But for everyone else to use? Fuck off and give me my words back. There might be some vague social obligation for Destiny to change his tongue, but there's no ethical or logical reasoning behind it.
Implicit in the argument for E-Sports is that it should be fit for consumption by the public in order to grow. The links you offered are of television shows or comedy acts. Starcraft isn't scripted or written by a team of writers. When you post baseball or basketball broadcasts where they say "OMG did you see LeBron utterly rape Dirk with that crossover?!" then you may have a point.
Joe Rogan does it for MMA. Everything being talked about is part of the entertainment industry. There is no explicit difference between a pro gamer like Destiny and a comedian and, in fact, most of his fans would tell you that they watch his stream because of its comedic value.
You can argue that all sports are entertainment in the way you do. I don't think the MMA comparison rings true with Starcraft2. What incontrol is saying that is if we want to move forward as a community and bring more casual viewers people should be more aware of what they say. You'll still never find a basketball, baseball, soccer, golf, tennis, etc. etc. clip where they use ANY of the words you're talking about. But your youtube videos having people use the word rape have nothing to do with this debate.
Yes, that's exactly what all sports are. Athletes aren't paid by virtue of being athletic, they're paid because they entertain us well. It's precisely how advertising works.
I already addressed the rest of your post. If you want to argue that you shouldn't use those terms when selling to mainstream/popular audiences, then fine. Even Destiny agrees on that. When you go to a job interview, you sell yourself. NBA players only occasionally curse and use those words when giving press conferences. But in their personal time? In private practices or at a neighborhood court against friends? Of course they do. That's what Destiny's stream is.
Of course you can use those words and be a fucking dick or misogynistic asshole while using them, but you can also use them in an intelligent and poignant way.
NBA players get fined $50k-100k for using the word "faggot". You can't have it both ways, you can't say all sports are entertainment and therefore can use whatever language they like when I can point to virtually ALL of them and prove they don't. The reason that they don't is because their broadcasters have had this discussion decades ago. Literally decades ago, probably before you were even born. I know what Destiny's stream is, and I know what he is arguing, but whether Destiny knows it or not he is a spokesperson for Starcraft2 (he shouldn't have given an interview in Forbe's if he didn't want to be). And he should realize it helps the community for the greater good if such public figures didn't use those words.
I agree with Destiny on a purely philosophical level, but this is the real world and things are always how we think they should be.
When the NBA is selling and marketing itself on national television, they care about what players say. When Michael Jordan called Kwame Brown a 'little faggot' in Wizards practice, did anyone bat an eye twice about it? You're conflating two separate issues. The fact that they're entertainers only pertains to how some people can gain popularity with such language. In the case of the NBA, as marketers, they've deemed that it won't increase popularity therefore they don't allow it. The option is available and whatever they choose to do is up to them.
EPT
