On June 01 2011 22:22 flodeskum wrote: I personally don't like people censoring their language for anything. But I do understand that it is an American thing and cursing is sort of a big deal over there. So I can fully support them doing that at sponsored events or tournament casts.
However I completely disagree with incontrol saying that destiny has a responsibility to do the same on his personal stream because he now represents the community. Who decides when you cross over from angry guy streaming starcraft to community representitive? Should all streamers be censoring themselves or only the popular ones? In my opinion the contents of a personal stream represents the streamer and nobody else.
The only exception I would make is the word nigger. I just don't think a white person should be using that word (cue the "omg black people can say it, why can't I??? hAXX!?"). I don't think it is a big deal for the decendants of people that were literally owned to own a single word. Just let them have it. But feel free to say anything else
Fuck you nigger I am black, so its ok to use an "lightning" word
Naw, I'm not really black, I'm so white that CRT radiation appears to be coming from my skin. The concept that words are restricted based on race is stupid and is in fact racist. If any person says i cant say something because of the color of my skin that is racist. I don't give a fuck if a person calls me a cracker, and that they authentically think i am lesser of a human being because I'm white. I will not be offended by being called a cracker, i will not care, because i know its not true. The truth of the matter is that black people shouldn't care either, because they should know its not true.
Hell, i call my gay friends flaming faggots jokingly because they don't take themselves seriously, and i actually asked if it offended them, and they don't care because i'm actually comfortable with them being gay, and I'm not doing it in a way to hurt them or degrade them for being gay.
Calling someone a nigger does not instantly degrade them, and if you think it does then society still has a long way to go, its the intent of the speaker that makes a word like nigger bad, good, or neutral.
It's easy for some white skinny nerd posting on an internet forum to post his thoughts on the word "ni**er" and "gay". Just because you have an anecdote about your gay friend doesn't make that language alright for general consumption. The crux of the debate isn't about personal preference, but appealing to a larger audience. Because in your sheltered gaming lifestyle you feel it's ok for those words to be used, doesn't mean the general public does. When they start using the words you write about on broadcast television you may have a point. The american public has already had this debate decades ago. On a purely philosophical level I agree with you, but incontrol is right - if you want to appeal to a bigger audience you need to think before you speak.
IMO this whole debate is borne from the fact the main demographic on TL is 17-19 yr olds who really haven't been out in the real world and are still dealing with their rebellion in general. Rebellion from authoritative figures such as parents,teachers, etc.. Incontrol is getting hated on because he's the authoritative figure in this debate who is trying to help the community, however some people can't see through their blind rage...
Have you seen mainstream media? I think you guys are forgetting that the mainstream as of late is extremely offensive and provocative. We should not be trying to appeal to 30+ because it would be a waste of resources.
The issue is marketability, is starcraft 2's chances to become a main stream success inhibited by streamers who use the words rape, nigger, faggot, and gay? I doubt it, I think the market has a place for people who speak like that, but not at professional events. Destiny is making a living from being provocative, while day9 is not that controversial or provocative and is making a living that way. The market can obviously accept it in its current state.
Now here's something to think about, what if there was a player in the community that was truly racist, and talked about hating black people all the time on his stream, and about how women should be second class citizens, etc. etc. more offensive shit. Do you think he would be accepted in the community, if their was someone like that? Hell no, of course not, because that straight up hurts almost everyone that we could possibly market too, and that is just a terrible person. No one wants to be associated with a racist and sexist. Ive seen sports shows, they have professional clean cut sport shows and news, and they also have sports shows where they do use vulgar language and they go in depth, and their are people that watch that stuff too.
I think they can co-exist within the market, because they already are. Also, what demographic would we turn away that we actually have a chance of getting? I mean, do people realize that we are playing a video game, and thus the potential demographics that we can appeal to are already lowered, and also tend to be gamers. I think the most likely demographic that we are going to appeal to are the console players 13+ that already understand the context of words like rape. The concept that starcraft 2 Is gonna appeal to non gamers in mass is far fetched to me, so it feels like this proper language bullshit won't benefit us much at all or possibly hurt us because some people wont be able to go find contents like destinies.
What "mainstream media" are you talking about? Find me any legitimate quote from a mainstream media outlet in which they use any of the words you mention without qualifying it as hate speech. I don't think you know what is considered "mainstream media". Do you consider ABC mainstream media? Have you seen the campaign being run during primetime television telling people NOT to use the word gay as an insult? I really don't know what shows/programs your talking about where that kind of language is used, but I'd love to see some clips.
Chris Rock on HBO bigger and blacker, a very mainstream actor and comedian.(also did you know, the certain words are excluded from standard cable due to broadcast regulations)
Also I'm not saying that tournaments become people making "vulgar jokes" I'm saying that they can co exist like they do now.
They both exist, its not the predominant thing, But the use of nigger is part of mainstream culture, and appears from time to time in mainstream media. Oh yeah, and hating gay people is mainstream under religious context, I'm sure you have seen that in the news.
HBO is cable, that's hardly mainstream media. Chris Rock is a famous actor, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say. When Chris Rock goes on Conan, Letterman or Leno he doesn't speak like he does on Bigger and Blacker. When people talk about mainstream media they usually mean ABC, NBC, FOX and media outlets that can be broadcast where the end-user doesn't pay for the content.
So what exactly is your argument? It's alright to swear on his own show but not in interviews and talk shows? Wasn't there resounding consensus on the show about this?
Chris Rock as an individual isn't mainstream media. When he does appear on a mainstream media outlet he knows how to act. You can't compare paid content vs. unpaid content. To have eSports grow the unpaid content needs to get better and to the point where it's fit for mass consumption by the general public (at least that's how I interpret what InControl et. al are trying to do). In order for the unpaid content to be at that level, there should be some sort of decency standard people can expect so Mr. Joe Blow out in middle-America doesn't lose his shit when a caster drops an F-bomb when he's 11yr old son is watching. People never complain about their Playboy subscription being too graphic because they pay money for that content and know what they are getting.
this pretty much sums up the debate as far as personal streaming goes
of course if you're representing a tournament / sponsors for a show you shouldn't say nigger live ... but why is this even a discussion as far as personal streaming goes ? as long as the stream in question isn't specifically designed to bring people to esports who gives a shit if they get offended ?
solution : stop watching that particular stream ? am i missing something ?
That's not the argument. The argument is that someone, an outsider to the SC2 scene, sees an interview from Destiny or another streamer like him and thinks "Oh! I should check this guy out..." and they go to his stream/website/twitter and they get exposed to this stuff and it leaves a bad connotation about the SC2 Community... That's not good for the growth of E-Sports or the community.
That's just consequentialism. In your hypothetical it wouldn't further ESPORTS (whether that's true or not is debatable) but at least it's honest. That's the product Destiny creates. If he left his mic off, he wouldn't have 4,000 viewers right now. You can't tell him to clean himself up because he's a representative now, when the primary reason that he became a representative is because he wouldn't clean himself up. That just makes no sense.
I'm just saying that the counter argument from Geoff is a valid concern... and a fairly large one at that.
I'm wondering what level of intelligence you want new blood to the SC2 scene to have.
If you have to cater to people that hear something offensive on Destiny's stream i.e. nigger or rape, and then immediately conclude the entire community on Team Liquid, SCReddit, Wellplayed, Gosugamers, Youtube, Justin.tv, Sixpoolgaming, WTR1BE etc, hate minorities or support rape... Why bother? What are these people going to contribute to the community, other than be empty, silent product sponges?
No one would think he represents the scene, unless your of the odd mindset that 1 random persons opinion and character represents everyone in the community. Although after typing that I'm reminded of some large ego's who do claim to represent the community, and say that if your in the public light you have to represent all groups your affiliated with, be a role model for all, and therefore never be yourself.
On June 02 2011 02:57 DoomsVille wrote: Btw incontrol... You have a serious elitist attitude that puts people off more than offensive words ever would.
You think any professional NBA player (or athlete) would ever say "I don't listen to the fans because they're stupid and they don't have as much experience with basketball as I do"?
Insulting the general community, whose support you're hoping to gain, is probably why there is much more incontrol hate than there is for any other progamer.
I understand where you're coming from, it can be off-putting but honestly if someone who played basketball in high school and that's it tells an NBA star how he should be doing a cross-over, or should be running this play instead of that one would probably get the "You don't have a clue what you're talking about" from the NBA player.
I don't try to tell professionals how to play their game. Sure I can voice my opinion, by all means. But don't get your panties in a bunch when they bite back when you criticize their passion and livelihood. It really shouldn't be that surprising.
It's sad we have to attack each other instead of just having a conversation about it.
I apologize in advance for bringing this retarded shit up again, but iNcontroL's argument was so asinine as well as Destiny's counter-argument that I feel it needs addressing. First, iNcontroL isn't a role model. He called himself, and the "faces of ESPORTS, that on WoC and I just about raped a kitten out of frustration because it was such a stupid and pretentious thing to say. He is an entertainer in an ultra niche entertainment industry market. Whether SC2 actually goes mainstream (which it won't) is neither here nor there, but it needs to be clarified that he's an entertainer first and foremost, even as a player.
The idea of censoring entertainers is nothing new, as it's been happening to comedians for at least decades. Unfunny people tell them what topics are off limits, regardless of context, without understanding that absurdity and personal pain are usually what drive comedy. That's what makes Richard Pryor a god and Jeff Foxworthy a fucking idiot. Deep down, I think iNcontroL knows this. After all, he's a pretty funny guy and he knows that shit like "DICK THE GROUND" is pretty funny, but he's been blinded by the fact that he's the "face" of something and has to sell it. And that makes sense in a lot of cases, and on that point even Destiny agrees. When you go into a job interview, you change your presentation so that it is more formal and less offensive/edgy than a casual setting. But that's where things fall apart, because Destiny isn't interviewing to impress people, he already has the job.
IdrA's fans giggle like crazy when he calls someone a 'faggot' and Destiny's love 'baneling rape.' So it's not a popularity/mainstream argument anymore, it's become an insanely backwards plea that the act of rape is so heinous that its verbal representation cannot be used in any non-serious manner, even by entertainers. It's the same with 'retard', 'nigger' and 'faggot' which have historically demeaning purposes. Not only does his ideal situation create a bizarre ever-expanding black hole of words that need to be ignored, for fear of aggravating someone in a personally charged way, but it ignores the nature and purpose of comedy in the first place. Comedy highlights absurdity and allows people to detach themselves from pain.
On WoC, iNc said you wouldn't find 'rape' funny if you visited a battered women's shelter, but I have, and I've done Take Back The Night and worked with rape survivors, and I still think 'rape' can be a funny word. And so did some of them! Not only is iNc imposing artificial limitations on how people should use words, but he's doing it on how people should feel about them as well. It's the same as telling Jews not to laugh at The Producers or that soldiers can't laugh when Colbert makes jokes about war and dying, because those are SERIOUS SUBJECTS WITH DEEP RAMIFICATIONS AND ARE THEREFORE NOT FUNNY. Except that's what makes them ripe for humor, though.
To me, it's actually more offensive to presume to speak for other people or when someone claims to be my representative. I hope most of us can agree that a bunch of white, male suburban nerds discussing the ethics of using 'nigger' and 'rape' is actually more offensive than the words themselves. It would be slightly hilarious if we gave in, however, since it's not like white middle class men have been given enough opportunities to set the status quo.
Destiny is an entertainer and he might not be catering to a diverse audience with personal connections to those words, but it doesn't matter. He's using them in a non-hateful way which he finds funny, and that's all he needs. The merit of his jokes/humor is irrelevant. The SUPER SERIOUS argument is silly and there's no justified reason to place words in an off-limit category for society. Personally? Sure, do what you want. But for everyone else to use? Fuck off and give me my words back. There might be some vague social obligation for Destiny to change his tongue, but there's no ethical or logical reasoning behind it.
And before anyone says these are "special cases," no, they're fucking not. iNcontroL said the word is off limits and not funny.
Implicit in the argument for E-Sports is that it should be fit for consumption by the public in order to grow. The links you offered are of television shows or comedy acts. Starcraft isn't scripted or written by a team of writers. When you post baseball or basketball broadcasts where they say "OMG did you see LeBron utterly rape Dirk with that crossover?!" then you may have a point.
Joe Rogan does it for MMA. Everything being talked about is part of the entertainment industry. There is no explicit difference between a pro gamer like Destiny and a comedian and, in fact, most of his fans would tell you that they watch his stream because of its comedic value.
You can argue that all sports are entertainment in the way you do. I don't think the MMA comparison rings true with Starcraft2. What incontrol is saying that is if we want to move forward as a community and bring more casual viewers people should be more aware of what they say. You'll still never find a basketball, baseball, soccer, golf, tennis, etc. etc. clip where they use ANY of the words you're talking about. But your youtube videos having people use the word rape have nothing to do with this debate.
Yes, that's exactly what all sports are. Athletes aren't paid by virtue of being athletic, they're paid because they entertain us well. It's precisely how advertising works.
I already addressed the rest of your post. If you want to argue that you shouldn't use those terms when selling to mainstream/popular audiences, then fine. Even Destiny agrees on that. When you go to a job interview, you sell yourself. NBA players only occasionally curse and use those words when giving press conferences. But in their personal time? In private practices or at a neighborhood court against friends? Of course they do. That's what Destiny's stream is.
Of course you can use those words and be a fucking dick or misogynistic asshole while using them, but you can also use them in an intelligent and poignant way.
NBA players get fined $50k-100k for using the word "faggot". You can't have it both ways, you can't say all sports are entertainment and therefore can use whatever language they like when I can point to virtually ALL of them and prove they don't. The reason that they don't is because their broadcasters have had this discussion decades ago. Literally decades ago, probably before you were even born. I know what Destiny's stream is, and I know what he is arguing, but whether Destiny knows it or not he is a spokesperson for Starcraft2 (he shouldn't have given an interview in Forbe's if he didn't want to be). And he should realize it helps the community for the greater good if such public figures didn't use those words.
I agree with Destiny on a purely philosophical level, but this is the real world and things are always how we think they should be.
When the NBA is selling and marketing itself on national television, they care about what players say. When Michael Jordan called Kwame Brown a 'little faggot' in Wizards practice, did anyone bat an eye twice about it? You're conflating two separate issues. The fact that they're entertainers only pertains to how some people can gain popularity with such language. In the case of the NBA, as marketers, they've deemed that it won't increase popularity therefore they don't allow it. The option is available and whatever they choose to do is up to them.
I'm not conflating anything. All I'm trying to say is you can't have it both ways and pick out specific pieces of organizations to make your point. It needs to be judged in toto.
To quote the great A.I "we talkin' bout practice, man..". You're exactly right with the NBA being marketers, however I would bet that 98% of players don't have a problem with the word "faggot" and could care less who says it. But the NBA has a big problem with it because of how the public perception can change about their players. It's the same reason they have a dress code players must abide by to and from games.
For eSports to grow it needs to be marketed properly. What people are trying to do is say "lets cut out these words that we probably don't even really need to use, and try and seem a little more aware of what audience we want".
On June 01 2011 23:49 Pekkz wrote: To the GSTL discussion. Mouz and dignitas is really the only teams that would have any chance at all out there. Maby liquid....
When geoff even says EG would be a better representation for the foreigners then FXO, I have to respectivly disagree. FXO has Sheth, Moonan, QXC, Moonglade. You could say idra is better then them all , but after that the next 3-4 FXO players is better then the next EG player. I guess you could argue that Axlav is allright, but he has no experience playing outside of US. Demuslim has not had the best comeback either.
Idra is a player that could potentially all kill some of the worse korean teams, but EG just lacks that second strong player in my opinion.
You always go thread to thread hating on EG lol
sorry you think so low of us mate but we are just fine. I won't even justify this post with any results cause it will sound like bragging but you are just like "well they have these 3 guys and I say they are better!"
Lol
I'm rereading the comment inControl responded to and assuming this is where this branch-off argument in regards to the legitimacy of outsider comments started... It really seems excessively defensive and I find it rather silly that you label him a "hater" when his comment was actually pretty tame, it was just him giving his opinion in a pretty respectful manner.
While I do think that EG might post slightly better results in the GSTL, I doubt it would be by very much at all. Regardless, FXO is sending their team their to compete and hopefully improve so when you sort of start the discussion by saying something along the lines of, -My team would be a better representation-(and I don't want to quote him because I don't know if he said this) then you shouldn't get defensive when fans of that team respectfully disagree. Sure, EG might be a slightly better representation, but I think there are teams that would be a far better representation than EG, such as Mouz, Dignitas or ROOT. Does this make me an EG hater too?
Being ultra-defensive when someone simply stated their opinion, in response to yours, is pretty silly.
On June 01 2011 22:22 flodeskum wrote: I personally don't like people censoring their language for anything. But I do understand that it is an American thing and cursing is sort of a big deal over there. So I can fully support them doing that at sponsored events or tournament casts.
However I completely disagree with incontrol saying that destiny has a responsibility to do the same on his personal stream because he now represents the community. Who decides when you cross over from angry guy streaming starcraft to community representitive? Should all streamers be censoring themselves or only the popular ones? In my opinion the contents of a personal stream represents the streamer and nobody else.
The only exception I would make is the word nigger. I just don't think a white person should be using that word (cue the "omg black people can say it, why can't I??? hAXX!?"). I don't think it is a big deal for the decendants of people that were literally owned to own a single word. Just let them have it. But feel free to say anything else
Fuck you nigger I am black, so its ok to use an "lightning" word
Naw, I'm not really black, I'm so white that CRT radiation appears to be coming from my skin. The concept that words are restricted based on race is stupid and is in fact racist. If any person says i cant say something because of the color of my skin that is racist. I don't give a fuck if a person calls me a cracker, and that they authentically think i am lesser of a human being because I'm white. I will not be offended by being called a cracker, i will not care, because i know its not true. The truth of the matter is that black people shouldn't care either, because they should know its not true.
Hell, i call my gay friends flaming faggots jokingly because they don't take themselves seriously, and i actually asked if it offended them, and they don't care because i'm actually comfortable with them being gay, and I'm not doing it in a way to hurt them or degrade them for being gay.
Calling someone a nigger does not instantly degrade them, and if you think it does then society still has a long way to go, its the intent of the speaker that makes a word like nigger bad, good, or neutral.
It's easy for some white skinny nerd posting on an internet forum to post his thoughts on the word "ni**er" and "gay". Just because you have an anecdote about your gay friend doesn't make that language alright for general consumption. The crux of the debate isn't about personal preference, but appealing to a larger audience. Because in your sheltered gaming lifestyle you feel it's ok for those words to be used, doesn't mean the general public does. When they start using the words you write about on broadcast television you may have a point. The american public has already had this debate decades ago. On a purely philosophical level I agree with you, but incontrol is right - if you want to appeal to a bigger audience you need to think before you speak.
IMO this whole debate is borne from the fact the main demographic on TL is 17-19 yr olds who really haven't been out in the real world and are still dealing with their rebellion in general. Rebellion from authoritative figures such as parents,teachers, etc.. Incontrol is getting hated on because he's the authoritative figure in this debate who is trying to help the community, however some people can't see through their blind rage...
Have you seen mainstream media? I think you guys are forgetting that the mainstream as of late is extremely offensive and provocative. We should not be trying to appeal to 30+ because it would be a waste of resources.
The issue is marketability, is starcraft 2's chances to become a main stream success inhibited by streamers who use the words rape, nigger, faggot, and gay? I doubt it, I think the market has a place for people who speak like that, but not at professional events. Destiny is making a living from being provocative, while day9 is not that controversial or provocative and is making a living that way. The market can obviously accept it in its current state.
Now here's something to think about, what if there was a player in the community that was truly racist, and talked about hating black people all the time on his stream, and about how women should be second class citizens, etc. etc. more offensive shit. Do you think he would be accepted in the community, if their was someone like that? Hell no, of course not, because that straight up hurts almost everyone that we could possibly market too, and that is just a terrible person. No one wants to be associated with a racist and sexist. Ive seen sports shows, they have professional clean cut sport shows and news, and they also have sports shows where they do use vulgar language and they go in depth, and their are people that watch that stuff too.
I think they can co-exist within the market, because they already are. Also, what demographic would we turn away that we actually have a chance of getting? I mean, do people realize that we are playing a video game, and thus the potential demographics that we can appeal to are already lowered, and also tend to be gamers. I think the most likely demographic that we are going to appeal to are the console players 13+ that already understand the context of words like rape. The concept that starcraft 2 Is gonna appeal to non gamers in mass is far fetched to me, so it feels like this proper language bullshit won't benefit us much at all or possibly hurt us because some people wont be able to go find contents like destinies.
What "mainstream media" are you talking about? Find me any legitimate quote from a mainstream media outlet in which they use any of the words you mention without qualifying it as hate speech. I don't think you know what is considered "mainstream media". Do you consider ABC mainstream media? Have you seen the campaign being run during primetime television telling people NOT to use the word gay as an insult? I really don't know what shows/programs your talking about where that kind of language is used, but I'd love to see some clips.
Chris Rock on HBO bigger and blacker, a very mainstream actor and comedian.(also did you know, the certain words are excluded from standard cable due to broadcast regulations)
Also I'm not saying that tournaments become people making "vulgar jokes" I'm saying that they can co exist like they do now.
They both exist, its not the predominant thing, But the use of nigger is part of mainstream culture, and appears from time to time in mainstream media. Oh yeah, and hating gay people is mainstream under religious context, I'm sure you have seen that in the news.
HBO is cable, that's hardly mainstream media. Chris Rock is a famous actor, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say. When Chris Rock goes on Conan, Letterman or Leno he doesn't speak like he does on Bigger and Blacker. When people talk about mainstream media they usually mean ABC, NBC, FOX and media outlets that can be broadcast where the end-user doesn't pay for the content.
So what exactly is your argument? It's alright to swear on his own show but not in interviews and talk shows? Wasn't there resounding consensus on the show about this?
Chris Rock as an individual isn't mainstream media. When he does appear on a mainstream media outlet he knows how to act. You can't compare paid content vs. unpaid content. To have eSports grow the unpaid content needs to get better and to the point where it's fit for mass consumption by the general public (at least that's how I interpret what InControl et. al are trying to do). In order for the unpaid content to be at that level, there should be some sort of decency standard people can expect so Mr. Joe Blow out in middle-America doesn't lose his shit when a caster drops an F-bomb when he's 11yr old son is watching. People never complain about their Playboy subscription being too graphic because they pay money for that content and know what they are getting.
IC, so you want destiny to charge a subscription fee for his stream then?
On June 02 2011 03:39 maahes wrote: Gosugamers, etc, hate minorities or support rape... Why bother? What are these people going to contribute to the community, other than be empty, silent product sponges?
Let the big-name tourneys draw those people in.
"Empty, silent product sponges" have money and they spend it. Advertisers and sponsers like those kinds of people, and are more likely to support endeavors that attract these people you think are so undesirable.
That in turn allows more teams to form, or existing teams to do more things. It creates more big name tourneys, or increases the prize pools / production values of said tourneys. It grows e-sports exponentially because the more money there is in something the better production values there will be, and the more talent will be attracted to it. In turn, that attracts more people because things have become more shiny and enjoyable.
It's a cycle that's good for the sport. Don't look down on people who just watch esports and buy Dr. Pepper. If Starcraft 2, or any esport is ever going to be as big worldwide as Broodwar got in Korea, the community is going to need a LOT of those people.
Turning them away because their first experience with esports is something enormously offensive is not a good thing. Even if casters don't censor themselves on their private stream, having a content warning pop up right before the stream loads or the like would be an excellent measure to not piss people off and send them packing.
On June 02 2011 02:57 DoomsVille wrote: Btw incontrol... You have a serious elitist attitude that puts people off more than offensive words ever would.
You think any professional NBA player (or athlete) would ever say "I don't listen to the fans because they're stupid and they don't have as much experience with basketball as I do"?
Insulting the general community, whose support you're hoping to gain, is probably why there is much more incontrol hate than there is for any other progamer.
I understand where you're coming from, it can be off-putting but honestly if someone who played basketball in high school and that's it tells an NBA star how he should be doing a cross-over, or should be running this play instead of that one would probably get the "You don't have a clue what you're talking about" from the NBA player.
I don't try to tell professionals how to play their game. Sure I can voice my opinion, by all means. But don't get your panties in a bunch when they bite back when you criticize their passion and livelihood. It really shouldn't be that surprising.
It's sad we have to attack each other instead of just having a conversation about it.
I totally agree with what you say - nobody outside of the circle of tournament gaming should speak with authority to someone inside the circle of tournament gaming, but maybe Dooms was referring to this:
On June 02 2011 02:42 Liudo wrote: So iNcontroL is just saying that he doesn't respect the opinion of non-pro gamers as regards criticism of pro-gamers.
It's not very shocking. And it's not going to stop non-pro gamers from having opinions about SC2 pro-gamers and expressing them.
I don't think iNcontroL is going to win if he wants to stop people from saying what they think about him as a player. It's a bit futile to try to achieve that, no? And if the point is just to say "I don't respect your opinion" well is it necessary to keep saying that over and over? Surely ignoring the opinions you don't like is a better strategy.
Although they probably won't admit it, a large amount of those who post hate about incontrol are pretty much just trolling. As long as he keeps getting riled up over forum posts, haters will keep flooding in like drones, it doesn't matter if he win 10 GSLs.
Idra should show him a thing or two on how to be thick-skinned. Incontrol can be too proud at times but if it's idra he will listen.
On June 02 2011 03:45 backache wrote: For eSports to grow it needs to be marketed properly. What people are trying to do is say "lets cut out these words that we probably don't even really need to use, and try and seem a little more aware of what audience we want".
Again, misguided consequentialism. You're asking Destiny to change his language for a golden egg that 1) may or may not exist 2) reaching it may or may not depend on his cooperation and 3) he may not care about.
Consider SC2's target demographic and compare it to MMA. How do they differ? How do they view the words we're talking about?
On June 02 2011 02:57 DoomsVille wrote: Btw incontrol... You have a serious elitist attitude that puts people off more than offensive words ever would.
You think any professional NBA player (or athlete) would ever say "I don't listen to the fans because they're stupid and they don't have as much experience with basketball as I do"?
Insulting the general community, whose support you're hoping to gain, is probably why there is much more incontrol hate than there is for any other progamer.
I understand where you're coming from, it can be off-putting but honestly if someone who played basketball in high school and that's it tells an NBA star how he should be doing a cross-over, or should be running this play instead of that one would probably get the "You don't have a clue what you're talking about" from the NBA player.
I don't try to tell professionals how to play their game. Sure I can voice my opinion, by all means. But don't get your panties in a bunch when they bite back when you criticize their passion and livelihood. It really shouldn't be that surprising.
It's sad we have to attack each other instead of just having a conversation about it.
I totally agree with what you say - nobody outside of the circle of tournament gaming should speak with authority to someone inside the circle of tournament gaming, but maybe Dooms was referring to this:
inc: "Hey, JP, the chat wants Destiny in here."
segue half an hour into the future.
inc: 'Well, you just have to ignore the chat.'
cus it made me go 'lol wow.' o__o
Hahaha well this is SotG, not debate class. Nobody watches because they are able to formulate their arguments well without contradicting themselves in the next 30 minutes. People watch because it's funny and entertaining. JP just throws debates in there because it makes for drama.
But good find on that quote, I'm sure if someone counted, you could find 10+ contradictions by each person on each show, but like I said, it doesn't matter. And they were drunk too lol.
FXO has literally 0 team accomplishments except losing to EG in ESEA and taking I think 4th.
Where the HELL do people get it in their mind that they are a better team? It absolutely cannot be through results. Arbitrary considerations with players? Qxc hasn't been his former self since MLG of last year when he still placed lower than several EG players. Moonan? No accomplishments. Slog? Filthy? Tgun or w/e... all lower level than Machine, Strifecro and Lz. Sheth is great. But still has fewer / less accomplishments than I do in big tourneys (MLG). Then we compare super-stars.. IdrA vs Moonglade. Need I say more? And all this without mentioning Axslav who won MVP for crota invitational going undefeated against players like Jinro and the other top players from top teams.
Emphasis on the bolded part...
I don't care for the argument that's taking place here on which team is better, but blatant falsehoods tickle my fancy. Moonan has no accomplishments but you do?
At MLG Dallas, you were seeded into pool play. You took fourth place by: In group play: beating TLO, Mihai, and slush Losing to painuser In the championship bracket: You beat TLO in an extended series You lost to Select 0-2 You lost to Kiwikaki 0-2
You won two best of threes and one best of five. You lost three best of threes. That got you fourth place.
At MLG Dallas, Moonan took 8th. He started in the open bracket. Got knocked into the losers bracket by huk and did not make group play, but proceeded to the championship bracket by beating Naama. In the championship bracket he beat spades, painuser, mihai, machine, slush, and eventually lost to socke. Moonan won 11 best of threes, and lost two best of threes. That got him 8th place. If you'll notice, three of the players he beat were the ones that were in your pool (essentially the same players you beat to secure your fourth place spot, minus TLO).
In summary: Incontrol : Wins: 2 bo3's, 1 bo5. Losses: 3 bo3's 4th place
Moonan: Wins: 11 bo3's Losses: 2 bo3's 8th place
The catch is that Moonan played almost literally the same players that you did, plus naama, spades, machine, and a number of lesser known players.
Saying Moonan has zero accomplishments and you have more accomplishments than him or sheth seems kind of moronic. You benefited from a very skewed seeding system. That is all fine and good in itself. I'm happy for your success. But don't go waving your dick around saying you have more accomplishments than other people who arguably performed just as well if not better than you.
I want to be clear that i'm not saying you didn't do well. I'm saying that arguably Moonan did better and you're sitting on your 4th place "accomplishment" and saying Moonan has zero accomplishments. It seems silly.
On June 02 2011 03:20 Nizzy wrote: Watching the VOD now. IdrA says if he is doing a pro casting position like NASL that he will not be "him." That he will change himself for that position. Then why did he make that nasty comment about Cruncher being overweight, when Cruncher went up to him at an event and saying hi? Sounds like he was bringing his personal issues into NASL, with him being him during a show that I pay money for it. I don't want to see his little personal drama fest. That comment probably cost NASL my money for next season...
he tries man, he tries
did you watch the cast at all? incontrol set him up and egged him on. NASL wanted to stir some shit, idra sensed that this was what the company wanted, so he made those comments.
those comments were nothing close to the kinds of stuff he could say if he wasn't on NASL, he very much restrained himself and was passive agressive instead of being actually agressive and upfront with his idra rage, the actual idra would've cursed up a storm
Idra's comment about being professional in a professional setting still stands, he just has a bit harder time dealing with it
On June 02 2011 03:45 Klive5ive wrote: That tribute to Inc was mega-awesome. xD
It was going so awesome until they went to the language section. Not that it made me some hater, I still love sotg and Incontrol, just it could have been so much more awesome ;(. The whole rape thing was so silly. I'm not sure if it's American culture or media that fuels the whole debate that was going on but I think people need to take a step back and realise how silly it all is. The idea that serious things can never be funny is quite ridiculous. Life is full of serious and unfair things, those are the very things people joke. Joking about them doesn't make them less serious, its just a way of dealing with things.
Also the idea of changing SC2/Esports for the purpose of making it "mainstream" is ludicrous. We have the passion for the game and scene in the form it's in. Changing what we love so that other people who don't love it can maybe like it is just retarded. The game will grow because people love it and have a passion for it. It won't grow because people try and completely changing that it is.
On June 02 2011 03:39 maahes wrote: Gosugamers, etc, hate minorities or support rape... Why bother? What are these people going to contribute to the community, other than be empty, silent product sponges?
Let the big-name tourneys draw those people in.
"Empty, silent product sponges" have money and they spend it. Advertisers and sponsers like those kinds of people, and are more likely to support endeavors that attract these people you think are so undesirable.
That in turn allows more teams to form, or existing teams to do more things. It creates more big name tourneys, or increases the prize pools / production values of said tourneys. It grows e-sports exponentially because the more money there is in something the better production values there will be, and the more talent will be attracted to it. In turn, that attracts more people because things have become more shiny and enjoyable.
It's a cycle that's good for the sport. Don't look down on people who just watch esports and buy Dr. Pepper. If Starcraft 2, or any esport is ever going to be as big worldwide as Broodwar got in Korea, the community is going to need a LOT of those people.
Turning them away because their first experience with esports is something enormously offensive is not a good thing. Even if casters don't censor themselves on their private stream, having a content warning pop up right before the stream loads or the like would be an excellent measure to not piss people off and send them packing.
There's a content warning before loading up certain streams, like Destiny's, the first time you access them on Justin.tv. There's also a warning along the bottom of the streampage at TL.
Advertisers and sponsors are great, but a streamer like Destiny has succeeded completely independently of their influence on his language and conduct. He's been popular since the beta, since there was no corporate support of SC2. There -are- arenas where acknowledging the source of funding for an event is important, private streaming ain't one of them.
Like I said, let the big-name tournaments bring those people in. ;o
On June 02 2011 03:45 backache wrote: For eSports to grow it needs to be marketed properly. What people are trying to do is say "lets cut out these words that we probably don't even really need to use, and try and seem a little more aware of what audience we want".
Again, misguided consequentialism. You're asking Destiny to change his language for a golden egg that 1) may or may not exist 2) reaching it may or may not depend on his cooperation and 3) he may not care about.
Consider SC2's target demographic and compare it to MMA. How do they differ? How do they view the words we're talking about?
I don't care about destiny or what words he uses. I don't know what you're on about this "misguided consequentialism". It's not just destiny either, it's the whole community. I don't care what words anyone uses, but I understand the point Incontrol is trying to make and why he is making it. What point are you trying to make about MMA and SC2? Are there MMA fights on TNT (or whatever paid-content network) where the casters use the words "rape" "faggot" and "nigger"? I highly doubt that. I would argue your premise that SC2 and MMA being equal is flawed.
On June 02 2011 02:51 Marzuki wrote: Only if your assumption that no one on the TL forums does, in fact, do exactly that then yes you would be correct. The problem is that you have not verified this assumption and there could be one or possibly more people who spend the vast majority of their time watching and analyzing pro replays/streams, progamer interviews, tournament VODs, etc. Granted, the majority of forum posters are idiots in their high school computer lab who don't even play the game on school nights. All I am trying to say is that you shouldn't be so quick to throw the baby out with the bath water and make a sweeping statement that rejects every opinion based solely on their status of pro or casual gamer.
I might be presumptive here, but I think one of the points that iNc is trying to make is that a game from his perspective is completely different from the perspective of a random person watching the same game. Obviously on a fundamental level the game is the same, they're watching the same two players perform the same actions after all, but there is a substantial gap between what a progamer sees and what a fan sees. Even if that fan watches or interacts with SC2 as much, or even more, as as someone like iNc, he simply cannot understand the game to the same degree. If he could it would reflect itself in his ability to play and essentially he would be a pro himself.
A good example of this would be one of the Alicia vs MC games from the GSL Super Tournament. At one point Alicia manages to perfectly micro a stalker down a ramp without missing a single shot while keeping up with his macro. Artosis immediately notices this and draws the viewers attention to how incredible this play was. I can almost guarantee that 99% of the SC2 community would not have noticed this.
I'm pretty sure that the discrepancy between what a professional sees and what the average fan sees is not acknowledged by most people because they don't know that this gap exists. The only way to actually verify that this difference exists is to become good enough at a game where you can see the nuances that the vast majority of people would not see. Even if a progamer can't state specifically what some of these differences are, they are nuances after all, he definately sees them and applies them to his viewing experience.
TL;DR - There is no way even a knowledgeable fan can see anywhere near the amount of things in a game that a progamer sees.
On June 02 2011 03:16 DystopiaX wrote: Nony lookin' good this week lol... I'm gonna miss Incontrol as a regular on the podcast, don't know if it was mentioned (only about 15 minutes through the latest episode) but I hope he can return as a guest occasionally.
Haha part of what was great was Tyler not saying a damn word for 30 minutes. It looked like he was just sitting back, enjoying his drink, while listening to the drama. (note: just like us). That was hilarious in itself.
EPT
