On June 02 2011 02:57 DoomsVille wrote: Btw incontrol... You have a serious elitist attitude that puts people off more than offensive words ever would.
You think any professional NBA player (or athlete) would ever say "I don't listen to the fans because they're stupid and they don't have as much experience with basketball as I do"?
Insulting the general community, whose support you're hoping to gain, is probably why there is much more incontrol hate than there is for any other progamer.
I understand where you're coming from, it can be off-putting but honestly if someone who played basketball in high school and that's it tells an NBA star how he should be doing a cross-over, or should be running this play instead of that one would probably get the "You don't have a clue what you're talking about" from the NBA player.
I don't try to tell professionals how to play their game. Sure I can voice my opinion, by all means. But don't get your panties in a bunch when they bite back when you criticize their passion and livelihood. It really shouldn't be that surprising.
It's sad we have to attack each other instead of just having a conversation about it.
I totally agree with what you say - nobody outside of the circle of tournament gaming should speak with authority to someone inside the circle of tournament gaming, but maybe Dooms was referring to this:
inc: "Hey, JP, the chat wants Destiny in here."
segue half an hour into the future.
inc: 'Well, you just have to ignore the chat.'
cus it made me go 'lol wow.' o__o
It does make you want to /facepalm, but really it's not like those things are necessarily exclusive. From what I remember he said the chat is full of idiots, it's a known fact. He should ignore them for obvious reasons but he also cares about feedback from the community. I don't know if I'd act differently in his position.
Agree with this. I watched the chat a little bit and it is literally the lowest common denominator of the SC2 community. It's impossible to say anything worthwhile there because of how fast it moves. As such, it just deteriorates into a bunch of idiots spamming the most outrageous and offensive things possible to try to get attention. Any worthy comments just get drowned in that environment. That is why the chat is worthless. It is just an outlet for the ADHD crowd to spam when they get bored with the conversation.
FXO has literally 0 team accomplishments except losing to EG in ESEA and taking I think 4th.
Where the HELL do people get it in their mind that they are a better team? It absolutely cannot be through results. Arbitrary considerations with players? Qxc hasn't been his former self since MLG of last year when he still placed lower than several EG players. Moonan? No accomplishments. Slog? Filthy? Tgun or w/e... all lower level than Machine, Strifecro and Lz. Sheth is great. But still has fewer / less accomplishments than I do in big tourneys (MLG). Then we compare super-stars.. IdrA vs Moonglade. Need I say more? And all this without mentioning Axslav who won MVP for crota invitational going undefeated against players like Jinro and the other top players from top teams.
Emphasis on the bolded part...
I don't care for the argument that's taking place here on which team is better, but blatant falsehoods tickle my fancy. Moonan has no accomplishments but you do?
At MLG Dallas, you were seeded into pool play. You took fourth place by: In group play: beating TLO, Mihai, and slush Losing to painuser In the championship bracket: You beat TLO in an extended series You lost to Select 0-2 You lost to Kiwikaki 0-2
You won two best of threes and one best of five. You lost three best of threes. That got you fourth place.
At MLG Dallas, Moonan took 8th. He started in the open bracket. Got knocked into the losers bracket by huk and did not make group play, but proceeded to the championship bracket by beating Naama. In the championship bracket he beat spades, painuser, mihai, machine, slush, and eventually lost to socke. Moonan won 11 best of threes, and lost two best of threes. That got him 8th place. If you'll notice, three of the players he beat were the ones that were in your pool (essentially the same players you beat to secure your fourth place spot, minus TLO).
In summary: Incontrol : Wins: 2 bo3's, 1 bo5. Losses: 3 bo3's 4th place
Moonan: Wins: 11 bo3's Losses: 2 bo3's 8th place
The catch is that Moonan played almost literally the same players that you did, plus naama, spades, machine, and a number of lesser known players.
Saying Moonan has zero accomplishments and you have more accomplishments than him or sheth seems kind of moronic. You benefited from a very skewed seeding system. That is all fine and good in itself. I'm happy for your success. But don't go waving your dick around saying you have more accomplishments than other people who arguably performed just as well if not better than you.
I want to be clear that i'm not saying you didn't do well. I'm saying that arguably Moonan did better and you're sitting on your 4th place "accomplishment" and saying Moonan has zero accomplishments. It seems silly.
this pretty much sums up the debate as far as personal streaming goes
of course if you're representing a tournament / sponsors for a show you shouldn't say nigger live ... but why is this even a discussion as far as personal streaming goes ? as long as the stream in question isn't specifically designed to bring people to esports who gives a shit if they get offended ?
solution : stop watching that particular stream ? am i missing something ?
That's not the argument. The argument is that someone, an outsider to the SC2 scene, sees an interview from Destiny or another streamer like him and thinks "Oh! I should check this guy out..." and they go to his stream/website/twitter and they get exposed to this stuff and it leaves a bad connotation about the SC2 Community... That's not good for the growth of E-Sports or the community.
No, Destiny doesn't "represent SC2" but he does just out of the fact of how much publicity he gets because of his stream.
So we don't put ANY onus on someone to not be a complete moron and not think one streamer represents every single SC 2 player? Are you serious? It takes all responsibility away from the individual and puts it on a bunch of regular people streaming SC 2.
I think that all this debate about language, tailoring to audience, consequentialism and representation of subcultures might be missing the mark a bit. Perhaps a more subtle and devious subject is behind our issues?
I believe that how content is distributed and viewed on the Internet may be the biggest factor in this discussion.
Many of the arguments I see for non-censorship revolve around the idea of privacy and "ownership" of a space. The main argument is something along the lines of "It's 'HIS' stream so if you don't like it don't tune in". I've seen this idea compared to a private sports practice or a private conversation with a closed group.
First question: Is an internet stream comparable to a private conversation?
Depending on your answer to the first question the content of the stream might fall into a category that requires or does not require censorship. I won't delve to deep into this except to say that the answer probably shapes the whole way someone thinks about this argument.
Second question: Does the streamer "own" the stream?
I am not talking about content, you can go read the justin.tv EULA here http://www.justin.tv/user/terms_of_service if you want to learn about that. I'm talking about owning the space the way a TV broadcaster owns(or leases) the frequency their channel broadcasts on.
This second question is even more difficult to answer than the first. Do you own the packets of your stream, including all the packets that are going to all your viewers? I'll bite a bit on this one: I would say that a streamer does not "own" the stream. They do own the whole content as per the EULA of their streaming provider, but the actual stream of data as it traverses the Internet is not theirs. I would even say that the streamee (is that a word?) the person tuning in, owns the packet as it passes through their network card. This leads me to say something along the lines of "If a streamer does not own the stream then any sense or idea of entitlement is removed from their stream". This circles back to the first question of private vs. public but with a slight twist.
Third question: If the streamer does not own the stream, then who does?
Again, another tough question which can help shape someones opinion on this matter.
All of these questions derive from thinking about the Internet and how we use it. Society has asked these same questions about other technologies including radio and television, but the Internet adds twists that we have never dealt with before and are challenging us to find our way.
Think about the questions above and not just about the semantics of words. Semantics is one thing, but understanding how we think about the above subjects is the crux of the matter.
Some food thought.
PS. I wanted to talk about Internet anonymity in here somewhere, but couldn't make it work. It requires a more detailed and individual analysis. Some more questions for thought: Is the way people act on the Internet the same as face to face? Are the popular streamers acting it up to gain more viewers? Are the popular streamers really 'being themselves'? How does sense of entitlement factor into 'being yourself' and the anonymity of the Internet?
On June 02 2011 04:30 GuiMontag wrote: The problem is that if your a 'pro' and you want to respond to the criticism then you either need to address the arguments made or not respond at all. If the only response you can come up with is 'hurr durr you suck at starcraft and arnt pro' then your not going to gain anyone's respect and come off looking stupid.
This is a good point.
My intention was only to point out how big the difference is between a professional's understanding of the game versus that of a more casual observer. This difference is why people like iNc say the things they say without necessarily feeling the need to qualify their statements. Even without taking the time to qualify, their opinions can and should hold more weight because what they see is just not the same things that we see.
I hope I'm not coming across as a hopeless fanboy - I'm really not. I just wanted to point out something that I think alot of the community doesn't necessarily think about or acknowledge.
On June 02 2011 04:29 kardinal wrote: I say good job FXO. It's great that someone stepped up to do it. I'll definetly be cheering and rooting for them come next GSTL and I'll definetly be paying more attention to them for braving that first step.
Some people, including me, won't have super high expectations but whatever they'll accomplish in the GSTL will be a hell of a lot more impressive than any other foreigner team. Because they took that step and I admire their guts.
Kudos to FXO for willing to finance this. Kudos to FXO players for taking this step.
Even if they crash and burn horribly? Who the fuck cares? It's about realizing your dreams and playing at the highest level. Atleast they'll have tried. It's more than what you can say about all the naysayers who come with excuses.
Yeah I was surprised when SotG tried to put a sort of negative spin to this, and say that the community felt negatively about it too. It has happened before but I forgot for what instance, it is like the community are mindless haters to them. For me, I was really excited to see a foreigner team on there, doesn't matter if it's not mouz/dignitas. I'm still excited about seeing them go up against Koreans and I see nothing wrong with them getting smashed as long as they don't go around Korea broadcasting themselves as the #1 foreigner team.
I forgot to add, that it was very noble for Tyler to stand up for what the real response of the community was. Tyler bringing down the law after not speaking for 30 minutes, haha it was awesome. Again, this was a drunk episode, so we shouldn't be taking topics so seriously, but I really liked the discussion of Jinro and what IdrA had to add, given that he made the move from korea to USA. While everyone was kind of trashing on Jinro, with leah adding some foul language in there lol, Tyler said something in defense of Jinro that made idra, iNc, and many other viewers re-evaluate themselves for a moment.
"To Jinro, being a pro-gamer is not making the most money, but playing with the best and competing with the best. It doesn't matter if he barely makes enough to live by, because to him, that's what pro-gaming is about."
This came after Idra was talking about how being in US overall more practical than korea due to reasons such as building a viewership, getting your name out there, better promoting your sponsors, etc.
On June 02 2011 02:57 DoomsVille wrote: Btw incontrol... You have a serious elitist attitude that puts people off more than offensive words ever would.
You think any professional NBA player (or athlete) would ever say "I don't listen to the fans because they're stupid and they don't have as much experience with basketball as I do"?
Insulting the general community, whose support you're hoping to gain, is probably why there is much more incontrol hate than there is for any other progamer.
I understand where you're coming from, it can be off-putting but honestly if someone who played basketball in high school and that's it tells an NBA star how he should be doing a cross-over, or should be running this play instead of that one would probably get the "You don't have a clue what you're talking about" from the NBA player.
I don't try to tell professionals how to play their game. Sure I can voice my opinion, by all means. But don't get your panties in a bunch when they bite back when you criticize their passion and livelihood. It really shouldn't be that surprising.
It's sad we have to attack each other instead of just having a conversation about it.
I totally agree with what you say - nobody outside of the circle of tournament gaming should speak with authority to someone inside the circle of tournament gaming, but maybe Dooms was referring to this:
inc: "Hey, JP, the chat wants Destiny in here."
segue half an hour into the future.
inc: 'Well, you just have to ignore the chat.'
cus it made me go 'lol wow.' o__o
It does make you want to /facepalm, but really it's not like those things are necessarily exclusive. From what I remember he said the chat is full of idiots, it's a known fact. He should ignore them for obvious reasons but he also cares about feedback from the community. I don't know if I'd act differently in his position.
Agree with this. I watched the chat a little bit and it is literally the lowest common denominator of the SC2 community. It's impossible to say anything worthwhile there because of how fast it moves. As such, it just deteriorates into a bunch of idiots spamming the most outrageous and offensive things possible to try to get attention. Any worthy comments just get drowned in that environment. That is why the chat is worthless. It is just an outlet for the ADHD crowd to spam when they get bored with the conversation.
It's not just the chat (although that is part of it). There isn't a single other pro player that comes on this forum and responds to the community as often as incontrol does. And unfortunately, a lot of the time it is very negative. He'll say things like the community is full of idiots, people don't know what they're talking about, only pros are capable of analyzing things properly etc. etc.
You never hear someone like TLO say anything like that (which is why he is universally loved). It's just his attitude towards the community that makes so many people hate him.
The only thing I was really trying to accomplish is to help him/everyone else understand why there is so much hate directed towards him (and to an extent... EG because of it). If he was the nicest, friendliest, most humble guy like TLO, everyone would love incontrol too.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he should change. He can conduct himself however he chooses too. But if you act a certain way, people will respond a certain way.
(Can you tell I'm trying to be as neutral as possible? Don't want to incite a shitstorm...)
Of all the foreigner teams I'd see Liquid having the greatest success in the GSTL format. In my opinion this format rewards team depth, and Liquid seemingly has the greatest depth of players that would be able to compete at that level in my opinion.
I think the biggest reason for this is because they went to Korea and tried it out! Excluding Jinro, Haypro and Ret didn't have the most successful time over there, TLO came home early, and Huk is just now starting to see all his practice pay off in results but they've all seemingly improved greatly from before they went over there and gained a lot from their experiences. So I can only hope this can effect FXO in the same way and I'm glad they took the opportunity.
On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote: I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter.
Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant.
Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion).
Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ?
btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
That's exactly what I think. I also think it's hypocritical that Incontrol says I don't have a valid perspective on what is an accomplishment. In the very show this thread is based on, he's repeatedly stated that it's unfair to attack himself or Tyler for being worse than the koreans they criticize, but then he does precisely the same thing to me.
Teamliquid wouldn't be very popular if everytime a poster tried to commentate on player that was better than them, they were shot down.
You posted HALF of what I said and postulated like it was my opinion or what I said, shame on you.
No, I said that tyler and I don't have to be better than MC to criticize him because WE ARE STILL PROGAMERS. WE SPEND 10000000000000x MORE TIME WITH THIS GAME THAN YOU + 10 of you closest friends.
That is NOT the same as you, some completely random hater who ALWAYS posts about how bad I am stating once again that you think you are some kind of an authority on the subject.
Do NOT speak for me in the future. You have an inability to consider my thoughts or opinions in anything but some hugely tainted light and it is getting old.
Sorry, but when do you have to be included in a group to comment on the group? The majority of sports casters are not professional athletes, so their opinion is ipso facto meaningless? Ecomonomists aren't necessarily bankers or businessmen. Political theorists and commentators usually aren't politicians. But you are saying a person cannot make a meanigful observation without being included within the group and therefore have not been granted special authority? Nonsense.
Gamers who are not pros can make informed and educated observations and comments. Knowledge and application are not mutually inclusive.
The fact that Incontrol is paying you any attention at all is quite ridiculous. You have a right to an opinion, true, but your opinion has ZERO weight as you have no Iota of experience in the pro field (you analogously compare yourself to an economist/sports caster which is absurd...). Incontrol has continuously made remarks about the insane amount of haters in this community and I agree with him. Since when does casually playing/watching the game give anyone enough background to seriously critique or condemn an actual pro of the game?
You should try to build up your credibility, humbly, by playing more and making more constructive/insightful remarks and MOST IMPORTANTLY bringing respect to the table, respect that players, like Incontrol, deserve. If you respect people, people will respect you back enough to actually consider your opinions.
If you, and the rest of most of this community continue your blind hatred you will all at the end of the day be remembered as just another crazed hater fan who will eventually be forgotten as it is with all sports.
Therefore I respectfully say, grow up and stop hating on the people who you watch, admire and aspire to play like.
FXO has literally 0 team accomplishments except losing to EG in ESEA and taking I think 4th.
Where the HELL do people get it in their mind that they are a better team? It absolutely cannot be through results. Arbitrary considerations with players? Qxc hasn't been his former self since MLG of last year when he still placed lower than several EG players. Moonan? No accomplishments. Slog? Filthy? Tgun or w/e... all lower level than Machine, Strifecro and Lz. Sheth is great. But still has fewer / less accomplishments than I do in big tourneys (MLG). Then we compare super-stars.. IdrA vs Moonglade. Need I say more? And all this without mentioning Axslav who won MVP for crota invitational going undefeated against players like Jinro and the other top players from top teams.
Emphasis on the bolded part...
I don't care for the argument that's taking place here on which team is better, but blatant falsehoods tickle my fancy. Moonan has no accomplishments but you do?
At MLG Dallas, you were seeded into pool play. You took fourth place by: In group play: beating TLO, Mihai, and slush Losing to painuser In the championship bracket: You beat TLO in an extended series You lost to Select 0-2 You lost to Kiwikaki 0-2
You won two best of threes and one best of five. You lost three best of threes. That got you fourth place.
At MLG Dallas, Moonan took 8th. He started in the open bracket. Got knocked into the losers bracket by huk and did not make group play, but proceeded to the championship bracket by beating Naama. In the championship bracket he beat spades, painuser, mihai, machine, slush, and eventually lost to socke. Moonan won 11 best of threes, and lost two best of threes. That got him 8th place. If you'll notice, three of the players he beat were the ones that were in your pool (essentially the same players you beat to secure your fourth place spot, minus TLO).
In summary: Incontrol : Wins: 2 bo3's, 1 bo5. Losses: 3 bo3's 4th place
Moonan: Wins: 11 bo3's Losses: 2 bo3's 8th place
The catch is that Moonan played almost literally the same players that you did, plus naama, spades, machine, and a number of lesser known players.
Saying Moonan has zero accomplishments and you have more accomplishments than him or sheth seems kind of moronic. You benefited from a very skewed seeding system. That is all fine and good in itself. I'm happy for your success. But don't go waving your dick around saying you have more accomplishments than other people who arguably performed just as well if not better than you.
I want to be clear that i'm not saying you didn't do well. I'm saying that arguably Moonan did better and you're sitting on your 4th place "accomplishment" and saying Moonan has zero accomplishments. It seems silly.
I was late for work, because of episode #41. I simply couldn't leave the broadcast. Great discussion about language/maturity in gaming communities.
I think 99% of all europeans are with Destiny on this one. I personally think the entire discussion is void. But then again, we're all socialist hippies with no regard for proper behaviour and civilized conduct. A thousand years of internal warmongering does that to ya, I guess
Personally I'd prefer a warning about bad music in a stream. This really offends me.
FXO has literally 0 team accomplishments except losing to EG in ESEA and taking I think 4th.
Where the HELL do people get it in their mind that they are a better team? It absolutely cannot be through results. Arbitrary considerations with players? Qxc hasn't been his former self since MLG of last year when he still placed lower than several EG players. Moonan? No accomplishments. Slog? Filthy? Tgun or w/e... all lower level than Machine, Strifecro and Lz. Sheth is great. But still has fewer / less accomplishments than I do in big tourneys (MLG). Then we compare super-stars.. IdrA vs Moonglade. Need I say more? And all this without mentioning Axslav who won MVP for crota invitational going undefeated against players like Jinro and the other top players from top teams.
Emphasis on the bolded part...
I don't care for the argument that's taking place here on which team is better, but blatant falsehoods tickle my fancy. Moonan has no accomplishments but you do?
At MLG Dallas, you were seeded into pool play. You took fourth place by: In group play: beating TLO, Mihai, and slush Losing to painuser In the championship bracket: You beat TLO in an extended series You lost to Select 0-2 You lost to Kiwikaki 0-2
You won two best of threes and one best of five. You lost three best of threes. That got you fourth place.
At MLG Dallas, Moonan took 8th. He started in the open bracket. Got knocked into the losers bracket by huk and did not make group play, but proceeded to the championship bracket by beating Naama. In the championship bracket he beat spades, painuser, mihai, machine, slush, and eventually lost to socke. Moonan won 11 best of threes, and lost two best of threes. That got him 8th place. If you'll notice, three of the players he beat were the ones that were in your pool (essentially the same players you beat to secure your fourth place spot, minus TLO).
In summary: Incontrol : Wins: 2 bo3's, 1 bo5. Losses: 3 bo3's 4th place
Moonan: Wins: 11 bo3's Losses: 2 bo3's 8th place
The catch is that Moonan played almost literally the same players that you did, plus naama, spades, machine, and a number of lesser known players.
Saying Moonan has zero accomplishments and you have more accomplishments than him or sheth seems kind of moronic. You benefited from a very skewed seeding system. That is all fine and good in itself. I'm happy for your success. But don't go waving your dick around saying you have more accomplishments than other people who arguably performed just as well if not better than you.
I want to be clear that i'm not saying you didn't do well. I'm saying that arguably Moonan did better and you're sitting on your 4th place "accomplishment" and saying Moonan has zero accomplishments. It seems silly.
well said
I got seeded into the top 16 because I spent 3 MLG's beating people of / higher level than what you listed for Moonan. Saying he did well in open play and then placed lower in the same bracket I placed higher in as some kind of "he did better" is stupid. I have NO IDEA why so many people hate on slush / TLO it really is a shame.. they are fucking good. Mihai came from the same open stage btw as Moonan and he too lost 0-2 to me. It sucks cause I have to defend my 4th place finish which comes off as "wow he thinks it was so amazing" but I am only doing that in response to the idiots that go "his 4th place finish was vs scrubs lololol"
Sigur I understand you are a moonan fan boy and all but I'm sorry...
Inc man, Its not just about who you beat... its the lack of matches, lack of different opponents, and the way you beat them. You honestly think you didn't have it easy? Name one person in the Top 8 who had it easier than you.
FXO has literally 0 team accomplishments except losing to EG in ESEA and taking I think 4th.
Where the HELL do people get it in their mind that they are a better team? It absolutely cannot be through results. Arbitrary considerations with players? Qxc hasn't been his former self since MLG of last year when he still placed lower than several EG players. Moonan? No accomplishments. Slog? Filthy? Tgun or w/e... all lower level than Machine, Strifecro and Lz. Sheth is great. But still has fewer / less accomplishments than I do in big tourneys (MLG). Then we compare super-stars.. IdrA vs Moonglade. Need I say more? And all this without mentioning Axslav who won MVP for crota invitational going undefeated against players like Jinro and the other top players from top teams.
Emphasis on the bolded part...
I don't care for the argument that's taking place here on which team is better, but blatant falsehoods tickle my fancy. Moonan has no accomplishments but you do?
At MLG Dallas, you were seeded into pool play. You took fourth place by: In group play: beating TLO, Mihai, and slush Losing to painuser In the championship bracket: You beat TLO in an extended series You lost to Select 0-2 You lost to Kiwikaki 0-2
You won two best of threes and one best of five. You lost three best of threes. That got you fourth place.
At MLG Dallas, Moonan took 8th. He started in the open bracket. Got knocked into the losers bracket by huk and did not make group play, but proceeded to the championship bracket by beating Naama. In the championship bracket he beat spades, painuser, mihai, machine, slush, and eventually lost to socke. Moonan won 11 best of threes, and lost two best of threes. That got him 8th place. If you'll notice, three of the players he beat were the ones that were in your pool (essentially the same players you beat to secure your fourth place spot, minus TLO).
In summary: Incontrol : Wins: 2 bo3's, 1 bo5. Losses: 3 bo3's 4th place
Moonan: Wins: 11 bo3's Losses: 2 bo3's 8th place
The catch is that Moonan played almost literally the same players that you did, plus naama, spades, machine, and a number of lesser known players.
Saying Moonan has zero accomplishments and you have more accomplishments than him or sheth seems kind of moronic. You benefited from a very skewed seeding system. That is all fine and good in itself. I'm happy for your success. But don't go waving your dick around saying you have more accomplishments than other people who arguably performed just as well if not better than you.
I want to be clear that i'm not saying you didn't do well. I'm saying that arguably Moonan did better and you're sitting on your 4th place "accomplishment" and saying Moonan has zero accomplishments. It seems silly.
Very well written and painfully true.
uh it might be true that moonan did better objectively at MLG but does it really answer incontrols point ?
FXO is not a better team than EG
so he's just personally attacking geoff with opinions of accomplishments
4th vs. 8th is a big difference. Don't blame geoff because he played less games.
On June 02 2011 04:57 ditkaordie wrote: Inc man, Its not just about who you beat... its the lack of matches, lack of different opponents, and the way you beat them. You honestly think you didn't have it easy?
He was seeded into the top 16, was that his choice? no. MLG decided it.
He won his group. Lost in the semi's and won 1 or 2 elimination matches to get back to 4th place.
What is wrong with him being proud of comming 4th in this huge tournament?
while nothing has been mentioned about money, 4th was what, 1200? thats a half decent chunk of change.
I think he should be proud of the 4th finish, and try to build on it at columbus and shoot for the top.
Everyone who goes to Columbus will want to win, that doesn't mean if they don't win and come 4th they won't be satisfied.
FXO has literally 0 team accomplishments except losing to EG in ESEA and taking I think 4th.
Where the HELL do people get it in their mind that they are a better team? It absolutely cannot be through results. Arbitrary considerations with players? Qxc hasn't been his former self since MLG of last year when he still placed lower than several EG players. Moonan? No accomplishments. Slog? Filthy? Tgun or w/e... all lower level than Machine, Strifecro and Lz. Sheth is great. But still has fewer / less accomplishments than I do in big tourneys (MLG). Then we compare super-stars.. IdrA vs Moonglade. Need I say more? And all this without mentioning Axslav who won MVP for crota invitational going undefeated against players like Jinro and the other top players from top teams.
Emphasis on the bolded part...
I don't care for the argument that's taking place here on which team is better, but blatant falsehoods tickle my fancy. Moonan has no accomplishments but you do?
At MLG Dallas, you were seeded into pool play. You took fourth place by: In group play: beating TLO, Mihai, and slush Losing to painuser In the championship bracket: You beat TLO in an extended series You lost to Select 0-2 You lost to Kiwikaki 0-2
You won two best of threes and one best of five. You lost three best of threes. That got you fourth place.
At MLG Dallas, Moonan took 8th. He started in the open bracket. Got knocked into the losers bracket by huk and did not make group play, but proceeded to the championship bracket by beating Naama. In the championship bracket he beat spades, painuser, mihai, machine, slush, and eventually lost to socke. Moonan won 11 best of threes, and lost two best of threes. That got him 8th place. If you'll notice, three of the players he beat were the ones that were in your pool (essentially the same players you beat to secure your fourth place spot, minus TLO).
In summary: Incontrol : Wins: 2 bo3's, 1 bo5. Losses: 3 bo3's 4th place
Moonan: Wins: 11 bo3's Losses: 2 bo3's 8th place
The catch is that Moonan played almost literally the same players that you did, plus naama, spades, machine, and a number of lesser known players.
Saying Moonan has zero accomplishments and you have more accomplishments than him or sheth seems kind of moronic. You benefited from a very skewed seeding system. That is all fine and good in itself. I'm happy for your success. But don't go waving your dick around saying you have more accomplishments than other people who arguably performed just as well if not better than you.
I want to be clear that i'm not saying you didn't do well. I'm saying that arguably Moonan did better and you're sitting on your 4th place "accomplishment" and saying Moonan has zero accomplishments. It seems silly.
well said
I got seeded into the top 16 because I spent 3 MLG's beating people of / higher level than what you listed for Moonan. Saying he did well in open play and then placed lower in the same bracket I placed higher in as some kind of "he did better" is stupid. I have NO IDEA why so many people hate on slush / TLO it really is a shame.. they are fucking good. Mihai came from the same open stage btw as Moonan and he too lost 0-2 to me. It sucks cause I have to defend my 4th place finish which comes off as "wow he thinks it was so amazing" but I am only doing that in response to the idiots that go "his 4th place finish was vs scrubs lololol"
Sigur I understand you are a moonan fan boy and all but I'm sorry...
most of the people you beat were early game / beta flashes in the pan.
just saiyan
i dont see why people are hating on incontrol so much about mlg though. i think the points people are bringing up highlight more the stupidity of mlgs system and the issues with having 5 events all close together followed by a 6 month break. the rankings of players change alot faster than every 6 months so not only does the mlg system need to change but there needs to be less summer centric schedule.
i think the points about FXO not being the best western team were legit, but it did make me cringe when geoff said about other possible teams, "a dignitas or EG" when EG without idra is considerably worse than FXO. although i guess eg could go there hoping for an all kill every time :D
EPT
