EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 1216
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Thrill
2599 Posts
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maahes`ra
United States255 Posts
On June 02 2011 03:54 W2 wrote: Hahaha well this is SotG, not debate class. Nobody watches because they are able to formulate their arguments well without contradicting themselves in the next 30 minutes. People watch because it's funny and entertaining. JP just throws debates in there because it makes for drama. But good find on that quote, I'm sure if someone counted, you could find 10+ contradictions by each person on each show, but like I said, it doesn't matter. And they were drunk too lol. I apologize if my attention span and memory depth is greater than that of a gnat. Alas, even if you did count, only one person is claiming to be Captain ESPORTS, MLK and chief grief counselor at Planned Parenthood all at once. ^___^ It makes for an interesting analysis of language. | ||
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mordek
United States12704 Posts
On June 02 2011 03:48 maahes wrote: I totally agree with what you say - nobody outside of the circle of tournament gaming should speak with authority to someone inside the circle of tournament gaming, but maybe Dooms was referring to this: inc: "Hey, JP, the chat wants Destiny in here." segue half an hour into the future. inc: 'Well, you just have to ignore the chat.' cus it made me go 'lol wow.' o__o It does make you want to /facepalm, but really it's not like those things are necessarily exclusive. From what I remember he said the chat is full of idiots, it's a known fact. He should ignore them for obvious reasons but he also cares about feedback from the community. I don't know if I'd act differently in his position. | ||
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mprs
Canada2933 Posts
On June 02 2011 03:28 Killerhands wrote: I'm just saying that the counter argument from Geoff is a valid concern... and a fairly large one at that. That we can't do anything about. Maybe the leagues can. Maybe have the NASL say that if you don't behave in a certain manner, you get fined. Thats what the MLB/NBA/NHL/NFL do. They don't say "Wow these kids in the school playground are swearing and playing our sport, it could potentially be a harmful image for the MLB" or whatever. If InC really found this to be THAT harmful, then "his" league should put measures to stop it. The truth is, they would lose viewers because someone like Idra pulls viewers not only for his game (which is absolutely wicked amazing), but also because if he loses, we see rage quit/shit talk/drama. NASL even advertised itself as a league that sells the "story", not just the games. And Incontrol is dearly mislead if he thinks that story is a bunch of guys sitting at a round table with suits on, drinking tea, and cleaning their monocles with the cloths of their top hats. I 100% agree with Jibba on everything he said. On the EG vs FXO thing. I have this personal philosophy that I like to follow. You can't say "if we we would go we would do much better than FXO". The only way to actually determine how how much better you would do than FXO in the GSTL, is to go there and compete. When the GSTL will ends, no matter where FXO finishes, it will be higher than EG by default. Unless of course you will say "look at their accomplishments, they all suck", then I would like to tell you about a team called slayers 2 GSTL's ago where everyone thought they sucked and took everyone by surprise. Or MVP last season. The truth is, they will go there and will have an experience of a life time. You went there and you said the same thing yourself. It will help improve them significantly. In fact, I have no doubt that they will come back a lot better than some of the players that are better than them now. They might not win a game, or they might win a game or 2. EG has Idra, and then the rest of the players are in the same class as FXO. I'm not part of either team or support either team. This is merely the objective truth. There are the top players like MVP/MC/Nestea. Then there are the really really good players like most of the Code S Koreans, Idra, Naniwa, etc. And last but not least there is all the other pros who can trade wins on pretty much any given day. Sure there might be "ranks" in that group, but it isn't relevant or worth mentioning. I'm not even sure who started this, but your claim that EG is "much better" than FXO can't be met with objectivity unless Idra gets to play every game even if he loses. In other words, I can see how we can sit down and say well Idra is better than every single FXO player (which is more or less true). However, to determine who would be better in the GSTL is pointless unless EG plays in the GSTL. Thats why you guys play the game, to see who is the best. Idra doesn't just get a 9-0 automatically because he is the best. He is probably the top in his group, but the other players try to stop him (and have). TL;DR: Jibba is right. EG isn't better than FXO in the GSTL because they aren't in the GSTL. | ||
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Azide
Canada566 Posts
On June 02 2011 03:56 SiguR wrote: Emphasis on the bolded part... I don't care for the argument that's taking place here on which team is better, but blatant falsehoods tickle my fancy. Moonan has no accomplishments but you do? At MLG Dallas, you were seeded into pool play. You took fourth place by: In group play: beating TLO, Mihai, and slush Losing to painuser In the championship bracket: You beat TLO in an extended series You lost to Select 0-2 You lost to Kiwikaki 0-2 You won two best of threes and one best of five. You lost three best of threes. That got you fourth place. At MLG Dallas, Moonan took 8th. He started in the open bracket. Got knocked into the losers bracket by huk and did not make group play, but proceeded to the championship bracket by beating Naama. In the championship bracket he beat spades, painuser, mihai, machine, slush, and eventually lost to socke. Moonan won 11 best of threes, and lost two best of threes. That got him 8th place. If you'll notice, three of the players he beat were the ones that were in your pool (essentially the same players you beat to secure your fourth place spot, minus TLO). In summary: Incontrol : Wins: 2 bo3's, 1 bo5. Losses: 3 bo3's 4th place Moonan: Wins: 11 bo3's Losses: 2 bo3's 8th place The catch is that Moonan played almost literally the same players that you did, plus naama, spades, machine, and a number of lesser known players. Saying Moonan has zero accomplishments and you have more accomplishments than him or sheth seems kind of moronic. You benefited from a very skewed seeding system. That is all fine and good in itself. I'm happy for your success. But don't go waving your dick around saying you have more accomplishments than other people who arguably performed just as well if not better than you. I want to be clear that i'm not saying you didn't do well. I'm saying that arguably Moonan did better and you're sitting on your 4th place "accomplishment" and saying Moonan has zero accomplishments. It seems silly. well said | ||
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Philip2110
Scotland798 Posts
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On June 02 2011 03:57 Skipper240 wrote: I might be presumptive here, but I think one of the points that iNc is trying to make is that a game from his perspective is completely different from the perspective of a random person watching the same game. Obviously on a fundamental level the game is the same, they're watching the same two players perform the same actions after all, but there is a substantial gap between what a progamer sees and what a fan sees. Even if that fan watches or interacts with SC2 as much, or even more, as as someone like iNc, he simply cannot understand the game to the same degree. If he could it would reflect itself in his ability to play and essentially he would be a pro himself. A good example of this would be one of the Alicia vs MC games from the GSL Super Tournament. At one point Alicia manages to perfectly micro a stalker down a ramp without missing a single shot while keeping up with his macro. Artosis immediately notices this and draws the viewers attention to how incredible this play was. I can almost guarantee that 99% of the SC2 community would not have noticed this. I'm pretty sure that the discrepancy between what a professional sees and what the average fan sees is not acknowledged by most people because they don't know that this gap exists. The only way to actually verify that this difference exists is to become good enough at a game where you can see the nuances that the vast majority of people would not see. TL;DR - There is no way even a knowledgeable fan can see anywhere near the amount of things in a game that a progamer sees. Yeah, but most critiques and things we notice shouldn't be dismissed either, I agree that there are some things that a seasoned pro-gamer will pick up on that a knowledgable fan might miss(though I think your TL;DR seems a tad hyperbolic) but that's not entire relevant to the situation that was being brought up earlier where people were commenting on the comparative strength of teams and inControl dismissed his opinion on results posted by players, it's far to easy to invalidate everything with: Well, you're not a pro, what the fuck do you know? Your opinion is invalid. I don't think it was applicable in the situation where it was applied. I've noted about pointed out things to pros while spectating their games, right after they finish, a lot of stuff they notice that I don't because I'm not as good as them. Some react better to minor critiques than others and while I agree that fans aren't really in a position to weigh in heavily, most of the time there are thing that you don't have to be a pro to notice. | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
Thank god for cranberry shots I guess. Hilarious that a)we had to get the news this way and b)scoots is trying to kill sotg. Absurd. | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
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Blasphemi
United Kingdom980 Posts
On June 02 2011 03:56 SiguR wrote: Emphasis on the bolded part... I don't care for the argument that's taking place here on which team is better, but blatant falsehoods tickle my fancy. Moonan has no accomplishments but you do? At MLG Dallas, you were seeded into pool play. You took fourth place by: In group play: beating TLO, Mihai, and slush Losing to painuser In the championship bracket: You beat TLO in an extended series You lost to Select 0-2 You lost to Kiwikaki 0-2 You won two best of threes and one best of five. You lost three best of threes. That got you fourth place. At MLG Dallas, Moonan took 8th. He started in the open bracket. Got knocked into the losers bracket by huk and did not make group play, but proceeded to the championship bracket by beating Naama. In the championship bracket he beat spades, painuser, mihai, machine, slush, and eventually lost to socke. Moonan won 11 best of threes, and lost two best of threes. That got him 8th place. If you'll notice, three of the players he beat were the ones that were in your pool (essentially the same players you beat to secure your fourth place spot, minus TLO). In summary: Incontrol : Wins: 2 bo3's, 1 bo5. Losses: 3 bo3's 4th place Moonan: Wins: 11 bo3's Losses: 2 bo3's 8th place The catch is that Moonan played almost literally the same players that you did, plus naama, spades, machine, and a number of lesser known players. Saying Moonan has zero accomplishments and you have more accomplishments than him or sheth seems kind of moronic. You benefited from a very skewed seeding system. That is all fine and good in itself. I'm happy for your success. But don't go waving your dick around saying you have more accomplishments than other people who arguably performed just as well if not better than you. I want to be clear that i'm not saying you didn't do well. I'm saying that arguably Moonan did better and you're sitting on your 4th place "accomplishment" and saying Moonan has zero accomplishments. It seems silly. Really good post. | ||
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RyanRushia
United States2748 Posts
On June 02 2011 03:56 SiguR wrote: Emphasis on the bolded part... I don't care for the argument that's taking place here on which team is better, but blatant falsehoods tickle my fancy. Moonan has no accomplishments but you do? At MLG Dallas, you were seeded into pool play. You took fourth place by: In group play: beating TLO, Mihai, and slush Losing to painuser In the championship bracket: You beat TLO in an extended series You lost to Select 0-2 You lost to Kiwikaki 0-2 You won two best of threes and one best of five. You lost three best of threes. That got you fourth place. At MLG Dallas, Moonan took 8th. He started in the open bracket. Got knocked into the losers bracket by huk and did not make group play, but proceeded to the championship bracket by beating Naama. In the championship bracket he beat spades, painuser, mihai, machine, slush, and eventually lost to socke. Moonan won 11 best of threes, and lost two best of threes. That got him 8th place. If you'll notice, three of the players he beat were the ones that were in your pool (essentially the same players you beat to secure your fourth place spot, minus TLO). In summary: Incontrol : Wins: 2 bo3's, 1 bo5. Losses: 3 bo3's 4th place Moonan: Wins: 11 bo3's Losses: 2 bo3's 8th place The catch is that Moonan played almost literally the same players that you did, plus naama, spades, machine, and a number of lesser known players. Saying Moonan has zero accomplishments and you have more accomplishments than him or sheth seems kind of moronic. You benefited from a very skewed seeding system. That is all fine and good in itself. I'm happy for your success. But don't go waving your dick around saying you have more accomplishments than other people who arguably performed just as well if not better than you. I want to be clear that i'm not saying you didn't do well. I'm saying that arguably Moonan did better and you're sitting on your 4th place "accomplishment" and saying Moonan has zero accomplishments. It seems silly. extremely well said... would hope for a response from incontrol but with how many pages of posts are constantly increasing in this thread i wouldnt expect one only real beef i had with incontrol's post is where he uses "FXO has literally 0 team accomplishments except losing to EG in ESEA and taking I think 4th." as an argument as to why EG is better candidates than FXO or whatever for GSTL. however, EG lost to coL twice and came in 2nd in esea, so would that make coL a better choice to send to GSTL? i'm not implying that coL is best usa team or whatever i'm just saying one teamleague result isn't necessarily best basis of team skill if anything i'd say if there were a team besides FXO to go i'd say best bet would be ROOT... but thats neither here nor there so best of luck FXO in korea! do it for the foreigners! | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
re-listening the past episode I am interested if you see a difference in your stance towards "getting SC2 to the big screen" and FXO trying to "get on the big stage". There is no doubt it is a hard task to undertake. Following the statements of FXO members, they are all well aware of it. But sometimes it is all about taking your chances. While it is understandable for other organizations to deem such an endeavor unfruitful for themselves at the moment, to me it seems everything just comes together for FXO right now. They happen to have the needed cash at hand, they happen to have players willing to go, they happen to have planned to collectively move overseas into a team-house regardless of their participation in GSTL. Sure it is an extra leap of faith. But some of the sentiment expressed by the community is that their decision is "wrong" and they shouldn't ever have taken it. That somehow this hypothetical spot should have been filled by someone else. Don't you think this is kind of a moot point, since obviously no one else is capable or willing to do it to begin with? | ||
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Skipper240
140 Posts
On June 02 2011 04:14 Mordiford wrote: Yeah, but most critiques and things we notice shouldn't be dismissed either, I agree that there are some things that a seasoned pro-gamer will pick up on that a knowledgable fan might miss(though I think your TL;DR seems a tad hyperbolic) but that's not entire relevant to the situation that was being brought up earlier where people were commenting on the comparative strength of teams and inControl dismissed his opinion on results posted by players, it's far to easy to invalidate everything with: Well, you're not a pro, what the fuck do you know? Your opinion is invalid. I don't think it was applicable in the situation where it was applied. I've noted about pointed out things to pros while spectating their games, right after they finish, a lot of stuff they notice that I don't because I'm not as good as them. Some react better to minor critiques than others and while I agree that fans aren't really in a position to weigh in heavily, most of the time there are thing that you don't have to be a pro to notice. Well, actually the point I was trying to make is that my TL;DR isn't hyperbole at all. The game that a professional player watches really is that different from what a standard spectator watches. Many times a professional can't explicitly state some of the things he sees, Gretorp is a great example of this disconnect between understanding and expressing said understanding, but he notices them and they reshape the game he watches in a way that we simply cannot understand. I know it seems like a really abstract concept. We are viewing the same game after all, right? However this difference between what pros see and what fans see does exist. Unfortunately, it's really hard to see just how wide this gap is unless you're in a position to experience it firsthand. While this concept may not apply that well to the topic at hand, teams attempt to appeal to a wider crown rather than their peers obviously, it doesn't change the fact that a fans opinion in a matter of player skill should not hold any weight against the opinion of an established professional. | ||
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kardinal
Sweden154 Posts
Some people, including me, won't have super high expectations but whatever they'll accomplish in the GSTL will be a hell of a lot more impressive than any other foreigner team. Because they took that step and I admire their guts. Kudos to FXO for willing to finance this. Kudos to FXO players for taking this step. Even if they crash and burn horribly? Who the fuck cares? It's about realizing your dreams and playing at the highest level. Atleast they'll have tried. It's more than what you can say about all the naysayers who come with excuses. | ||
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GuiMontag
Australia79 Posts
On June 02 2011 04:24 Skipper240 wrote: Well, actually the point I was trying to make is that my TL;DR isn't hyperbole at all. The game that a professional player watches really is that different from what a standard spectator watches. Many times a professional can't explicitly state some of the things he sees, Gretorp is a great example of this disconnect between understanding and expressing said understanding, but he notices them and they reshape the game he watches in a way that we simply cannot understand. I know it seems like a really abstract concept. We are viewing the same game after all, right? However this difference between what pros see and what fans see does exist. Unfortunately, it's really hard to see just how wide this gap is unless you're in a position to experience it firsthand. The problem is that if your a 'pro' and you want to respond to the criticism then you either need to address the arguments made or not respond at all. If the only response you can come up with is 'hurr durr you suck at starcraft and arnt pro' then your not going to gain anyone's respect and come off looking stupid. | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
Wow this is actually a great quote, and speaks volumes about the current MLG format. This was one of the concerns when MLG first released information about their new bracket, that it was too easy for seeded players to place amongst the top. Don't you get top16 or something crazy like that even if you lose ALL your games? | ||
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r_con
United States824 Posts
On June 02 2011 03:38 backache wrote: Chris Rock as an individual isn't mainstream media. When he does appear on a mainstream media outlet he knows how to act. You can't compare paid content vs. unpaid content. To have eSports grow the unpaid content needs to get better and to the point where it's fit for mass consumption by the general public (at least that's how I interpret what InControl et. al are trying to do). In order for the unpaid content to be at that level, there should be some sort of decency standard people can expect so Mr. Joe Blow out in middle-America doesn't lose his shit when a caster drops an F-bomb when he's 11yr old son is watching. People never complain about their Playboy subscription being too graphic because they pay money for that content and know what they are getting. Also, broadcaster have laws saying they can't say certain things and have ratings. How many shows on broadcast stations say curse words or have provocative images? And when i say mainstream media, I'm talking about something that millions of people watch, not a fucking broadcasting station. HBO and Showtime are mainstream entertainment in our culture, paying for it has nothing to do with it. That's like saying because something has a price, its not mainstream. That's like saying Halo Online isn't a part of culture cause you have to pay for xbox live. Howard stern anybody? That's mainstream? Our equivalent to this "paid content" is free live streams. That's how the community kinda works. NASL, TSL, MLG, and GSL are the big venues, and they are basically PG. They are the broadcaster equivalent, EVEN IF WE PAY for them, they are a far better equivalent. Also, what about my demographic point, what are we gaining by have streamers appeal to the mainstream by changing their language? Does it actually generate more viewers, or does it hurt us? Does not having people like destiny make it so we appeal to less or more in the real world? check my previous post where i go further into that | ||
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DoomsVille
Canada4885 Posts
On June 02 2011 03:44 mordek wrote: I understand where you're coming from, it can be off-putting but honestly if someone who played basketball in high school and that's it tells an NBA star how he should be doing a cross-over, or should be running this play instead of that one would probably get the "You don't have a clue what you're talking about" from the NBA player. I don't try to tell professionals how to play their game. Sure I can voice my opinion, by all means. But don't get your panties in a bunch when they bite back when you criticize their passion and livelihood. It really shouldn't be that surprising. It's sad we have to attack each other instead of just having a conversation about it. Yea I get your point. And I agree with you, I hate all the attacks also. But incontrol does it on a consistent basis. He always mentions how stupid the chat is or how dumb the community members are. He belittles all of us on a consistent basis. And I'm not saying I don't agree with him. He probably is justified in what he says. But at the same time he should come to expect all the hate also. If you're going to insult a group of people, you have to expect them to hate you. That's all I was really trying to get at. I think the most important thing is that he often directs it to the community as a whole. I don't think anyone cares if he calls out specific members of the forum when they're being retarded (like some of the comments in this thread). But insulting the entire community/chat is stupid. And to clarify, I don't hate him. I like him actually. I'm a fan of the fact that he's willing to speak his mind. But he can't keep doing that and then turn around and get angry when all the hate comes his way. It's just not good business. | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
On June 02 2011 04:29 kardinal wrote: I say good job FXO. It's great that someone stepped up to do it. I'll definetly be cheering and rooting for them come next GSTL and I'll definetly be paying more attention to them for braving that first step. Some people, including me, won't have super high expectations but whatever they'll accomplish in the GSTL will be a hell of a lot more impressive than any other foreigner team. Because they took that step and I admire their guts. Kudos to FXO for willing to finance this. Kudos to FXO players for taking this step. Even if they crash and burn horribly? Who the fuck cares? It's about realizing your dreams and playing at the highest level. Atleast they'll have tried. It's more than what you can say about all the naysayers who come with excuses. Yeah I was surprised when SotG tried to put a sort of negative spin to this, and say that the community felt negatively about it too. It has happened before but I forgot for what instance, it is like the community are mindless haters to them. For me, I was really excited to see a foreigner team on there, doesn't matter if it's not mouz/dignitas. I'm still excited about seeing them go up against Koreans and I see nothing wrong with them getting smashed as long as they don't go around Korea broadcasting themselves as the #1 foreigner team. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On June 02 2011 04:34 W2 wrote: Yeah I was surprised when SotG tried to put a sort of negative spin to this, and say that the community felt negatively about it too. It has happened before but I forgot for what instance, it is like the community are mindless haters to them. For me, I was really excited to see a foreigner team on there, doesn't matter if it's not mouz/dignitas. I'm still excited about seeing them go up against Koreans and I see nothing wrong with them getting smashed as long as they don't go around Korea broadcasting themselves as the #1 foreigner team. Yea that segment made me very sad. The whole "they could potentially hurt the scene" and "I'd rather see a mouz/dignitas go" really didn't sit well with me. Maybe it was just because alcohol was flowing and people were feeling emo. | ||
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