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while yes, ladder ranks are impressive and all, i really don't think that at their level, you can compare the ladder ranks, especially on different servers. ladder is one thing, tournaments are completely different. if you look at how the both of them performed in the GSL, IdrA is by far the better player... *shrug* but i definitely agree with incontrol. there are better teams to be going to the GSTL, i think that it's better than no teams going like it has in the past. i'm just hoping that by FXO going to the GSTL, it opens it up for other teams in the future 
love the podcast btw always gets me really weird looks at work while i'm sitting here and bust out laughing b/c i'm listening to it 
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On June 02 2011 01:27 Marzuki wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:18 Harrow wrote:
You mean would any of those EG team wins have been possible without EG.Idra? Gee, I dunno. It doesn't really say a lot about a team as a whole if one player is carrying the rest of the team members. What we need to see is consistent results from the majority of a team. At such a point a team can be called a very good team and not just the mediocre team with the one exceptionally good member.
SlayerS have won two GSTLs. Their players have almost no notable Code S finishes. Team leagues and solo leagues are different in BW and SC2.
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On June 02 2011 01:29 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:24 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter. Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant. Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion). Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ? btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different, and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective.
Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
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On June 02 2011 01:39 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 02 2011 01:24 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter. Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant. Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion). Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ? btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion. Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective. Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player.
Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
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On June 02 2011 01:36 SidianTheBard wrote:
Just had to say that even though I've only watched probably 1 or 2 other episodes of SOTG this one was just not good at all. I ended up turning it off about 45 minutes into it just because there wasn't nothing that was interesting that was going on at all. I suppose I'm unsure if most other SOTGs were like this but the other couple I watched didn't seem to be such bland topics.
This was a particularly bad episode, most of the time when they're beating a dead horse and just repeating themselves JP moves them along.
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On June 02 2011 01:41 Sqq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:39 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 02 2011 01:24 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter. Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant. Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion). Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ? btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion. Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective. Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player. Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ?
Well when you automatically start in the top 16 it becomes less impressive than something like Naniwa's run. ^^
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On June 02 2011 01:33 Thynar wrote:Ahh this is largely incorrect. Moonglade is a great player, but atm hes not a player of Idra's caliber. The SEA server is 'harder' at the lower leagues, but when you start getting up into master/GM, the NA server becomes much, MUCH more competitive than the SEA server. There really is no comparison. There are a few great players on SEA, but there is far more on NA (and they're better too).
Your points regarding the relative difficulty of regional ladder leagues is meaningless, since nobody with any sense will use ladder ranking to determine who the superior player is.
I suspect Juanald is trolling, but a quick and simple comparison of tournament results will give a much clearer measurement than ladder points at a given time.
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On June 01 2011 17:21 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 16:58 Sylvr wrote:
Anyway, at the root of any word or phrase used is Intent. If there is no intent to offend involved in the use of a word or phrase, then you are a fucking retard if you take offense to it. So if I just happen to call every stingy person a "fucking jew", and don't actually hold antisemitic ideas, people should just chill the fuck out and let me express myself the way I want to? Because that's exactly equivalent to calling anyone you hate a "fucking faggot", even if you don't actually think there's anything wrong with being homosexual. When you call someone a "piece of shit", you don't literally mean they're fecal matter, but you're equating them with something you consider completely worthless and disgusting. How should Jews and gays feel about being used in the exact same sense?
Your examples don't fit this subject. Rape, in the sense we're discussing, is referencing, to a degree, the actual definition of rape (in this case, to dominate someone as though they are helpless). Jew or Fag used in the above context is referencing a bias.
In any case, I wouldn't be offended anyway unless I knew that the person saying the things meant them in an offensive way (and even then, usually only if they are directed at me, and even STILL typically only if they can have actual detrimental effects on me or my well being (Slander, for example)). If I have no way of knowing how they meant it, I personally default to "Not offended".
Words have no objective meaning until we assign them. There is no such thing as a word that is offensive outside of context. To prove my point, a thought experiment:
Imagine that you are in a public place in a foreign country, and you are lost. You stop to ask some native for directions HOPING that they speak English, but it turns out they do not. Through the course of this conversation, by chance, a string of syllables in their language comes out sounding EXACTLY like "Fuck your mother". You know, for a fact, that they didn't actually say those words, but just made the sounds that make up those words. Would you be offended? (Insert any phrase between the above quotation marks, it doesn't make a difference) That is exactly what you're doing when you take offense at the words rather than the context.
To bring up a point that was discussed in the show about a person who was perhaps raped or involved in some traumatic incident where the use of the word Rape might bring up painful memories: to that, I call bullshit, and this is why. You don't know what words or phrases might bring up those same painful memories. It certainly doesn't have to be that one taboo word that directly defines the trauma. In the instance of Rape, those memories could just as easily be triggered by the word Dominate (for example), or dozens, if not hundreds of other words that make a connection in that person's brain to that particular memory. Limiting your language because it can potentially lead someone back to a traumatic memory is not reasonable, because it's impossible to know what will remind someone of what.
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On June 02 2011 01:43 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:41 Sqq wrote:On June 02 2011 01:39 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 02 2011 01:24 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter. Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant. Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion). Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ? btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion. Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective. Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player. Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ? Well when you automatically start in the top 16 it becomes less impressive than something like Naniwa's run. ^^
Didn't he only get top 16 seed because someone pulled out? or am i misremembering?
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I am sure FXO will benefit massively from their move to korea and might return with a level up even if they do end up having abysmal results in the GSTL. I eagerly await their performance. GL GLGLGL
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On June 02 2011 01:46 GuiMontag wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:43 nvs. wrote:On June 02 2011 01:41 Sqq wrote:On June 02 2011 01:39 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 02 2011 01:24 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter. Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant. Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion). Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ? btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion. Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective. Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player. Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ? Well when you automatically start in the top 16 it becomes less impressive than something like Naniwa's run. ^^ Didn't he only get top 16 seed because someone pulled out? or am i misremembering?
Ya one of the original top 16 couldn't make it so he got bumped up.
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On June 02 2011 01:29 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:24 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter. Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant. Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion). Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ? btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion.
I would love to hear your thoughts on your wins that got you to 4th over tlo, slush and tlo again (the only well known players you beat). Were you proud of the way you played in your victories? Do you think these games made you deserve the 4th place over many other players who would argue their paths were tougher than yours?
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Do we have a download link again for the VOD? need to get that feed back up for iTunes
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Sotg not gonna be the same..must have been harder for IC than it is for us..<3
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When did this turn into the bash Geoff thread?
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On June 02 2011 01:47 ditkaordie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 02 2011 01:24 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter. Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant. Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion). Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ? btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion. I would love to hear your thoughts on your wins that got you to 4th over tlo, slush and tlo again (the only well known players you beat). Were you proud of the way you played in your victories? Do you think these games made you deserve the 4th place over many other players who would argue their paths were tougher than yours?
Can someone tell me what the point of this discussion is?
i mean hes one of the weaker players that sucked before MLG but now he got an accomplishment and u guys try to take it away? why?
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On June 02 2011 01:49 CEPEHDREI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:47 ditkaordie wrote:On June 02 2011 01:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 02 2011 01:24 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter. Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant. Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion). Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ? btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion. I would love to hear your thoughts on your wins that got you to 4th over tlo, slush and tlo again (the only well known players you beat). Were you proud of the way you played in your victories? Do you think these games made you deserve the 4th place over many other players who would argue their paths were tougher than yours? Can someone tell me what the point of this discussion is?
Riling up Incontrol.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On June 02 2011 01:43 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:41 Sqq wrote:On June 02 2011 01:39 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 02 2011 01:24 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter. Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant. Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion). Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ? btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion. Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective. Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player. Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ? Well when you automatically start in the top 16 it becomes less impressive than something like Naniwa's run. ^^
Yes taking 4th is less impressive than winning the tourney.
Ty for that.
PSSSSSSSSSSST nobody was arguing I did better than naniwa
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People just love to argue with a community figure, not because the argument itself is anything worthwhile or even remotely correct but because they feel special and important arguing and getting attention from a community figure.
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On June 02 2011 01:51 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:43 nvs. wrote:On June 02 2011 01:41 Sqq wrote:On June 02 2011 01:39 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 02 2011 01:24 -_- wrote:On June 02 2011 01:16 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm sorry if you think 4th place isn't an accomplishment. I'm sorry if you think it is telling that I am happy with that finish.
I will comfort myself by knowing you aren't anywhere near a progamer and literally have 0 grasp of what it takes to place that high in anything competitive. So I know without a shadow of doubt that you are 100% a completely irrelevant perspective on the matter. Calm down. I understand where you're coming from, but you don't know about my competitive background. Just because I'm not a progamer doesn't mean I haven't been succesful in my life. And just because you angry, doesn't mean you can proclaim that my perspective is irrelevant. Let's use a sports analogy. If Lebron James loses in the finals, do you think he'll be happy with his 2nd place finish? Do you think Derrick Rose is happy with his 3rd/4th place finish? And if they were, it would certainly speak to how good they think they are (not the best), and what their goals were (not to be a champion). Am I claiming to be a fucking lebron James of SC2? Where the fuck do you go presuming everyone has to have the results of the absolute best player in the game and possibly ever to be posting "good results" ? btw I stand by the fact you know nothing about SC2 accomplishments and so far you are solidifying that stance. You are a generic spectator. You only consider a 1st place finish a good finish. Therefor you are irrelevant on the discussion. Fair enough. We have different opinions on what is an accomplishment, and as an actual competitor you have a perspective that is different than mine. I will say, however, that just because that perspective is different ,and arguably more knowledgeable, doesn't mean its objective. Sometimes players will be too hard on themselves. Going back to Starcraft, Jinro might feel like a loser because he hasn't won the GSL. Alternatively, some players might try to rationalize their failures. For example, Lastshadow had a high MLG finish once, and in trying to vindicate the time he's spent playing Starcraft 2, he might consider himself an accomplished player. Are you serious with the statement that 4th in a tournament with top players \ teams isn't a fantastic achievement ? Well when you automatically start in the top 16 it becomes less impressive than something like Naniwa's run. ^^ Yes taking 4th is less impressive than winning the tourney. Ty for that. PSSSSSSSSSSST nobody was arguing I did better than naniwa
could not have put it better Mr. Incontrol
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EPT
