EPTYou can always get new casters, but in the future the players WILL have the choice which tournaments to attend.
IdrA, National ESL's IEM Cup #3 Issues - Page 13
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shrinkmaster
Germany947 Posts
You can always get new casters, but in the future the players WILL have the choice which tournaments to attend. | ||
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midway
United States123 Posts
On August 17 2010 06:43 Fruscainte wrote: I'm pretty sure. I mean, I'm PRETTY sure, that it does say somewhere that casters shouldn't be going around BMing professional players in matches that they don't like. This is a business, money is being transacted, and it's unprofessional to be bad mouthing someone. Incorrected. IdrA used issues with BigT after the fact. For a few weeks now IdrA has been not allowing ANY casters to join his streams and was given PP for it. The rest of the issues come from a different topic that no one seems to talk about. | ||
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Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Germany2959 Posts
On August 17 2010 06:40 ShaperofDreams wrote: so you are fine with these guys penalizing players but not their own people\casters for inappropriate behavior? edit: also not paying players idra might have a bad rep but esl has a much worse one. What's up with random people going ape shit about this? Looks like you just read one line and make a frigging lot assumptions. Also whatever is going on everyone's supposed to behave appropriate. I don't know that caster but I guess he'll get his penalty. But I can't even believe people support Idras flaming just and really just because he's a good player. Keeping calm in such situations is helping everyone. | ||
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Dycedarg
United States12 Posts
On August 17 2010 06:26 midway wrote: We are monitoring the matches, the issue just wasn't brought to our attention properly until those previous two matches were played. It's easy to say that, but unless your running the event and watching how fast people are playing matches its easy for two rounds of an event to happen before a mistake can be totally investigated. Players are setting up, starting and finishing matches often times before previous issues can be resolved or even discussed. So while I wish there was a better way of resolving tickets in a faster time frame there's really no way to interrupt a player while he's already playing his match. Actually our admin staff contacted IdrA before his second and third round matches. That's why he got PP. Still I don't think this should be an issue for National ESL staff. Players should WANT their matches casted. If I was IdrA I would want to build up my audience and get more people interested in me. But what do I know, I just ran the largest eSports website from 2002-2006. As for the IdrA issue, only one angry here is you. We did our best to resolve the issue and deal with it. IdrA's travel considerations obviously created a more difficult situation. So I've been following this since last night and every time someone from ESL comes to TL to "clarify" the situation it seems to be worst. First starting with BigT and his "jokes" which made me say to myself, "Well, I'm not gonna watch any stream that BigT does anymore". Then G2Wolf comes on to clarify it some more but just making it worst and so I decided to not watch any streams from ESL. Then what you just said in bold really bothered me. Now, not only am I not going to watch any stream from ESL I will support the Boycott ESL and tell others to do so. The amount of arrogance the admins of ESL showed through out this event is not only hurting them but to e-sports too. You've lost a viewer today and will continue to do so at the rate you are going. | ||
Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On August 17 2010 06:43 Fruscainte wrote: I have no idea what's going on here, so a neutral voice coming in. Apparently what I've garnered is, a caster (in this case BigT) was bming idra in the games he was casting of him, IdrA refused to let BigT cast his games since not only was he just BMing him, but it was also causing him unnecessary lag. So the ESL bans him from the tournament. Correct me where I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure. I mean, I'm PRETTY sure, that it does say somewhere that casters shouldn't be going around BMing professional players in matches that they don't like. This is a business, money is being transacted, and it's unprofessional to be bad mouthing someone. The first part is superfluous. IdrA didn't allow casters into his game because he felt it was causing lag / latency issues. The caster complained to the administrator and IdrA was penalized. Later, organizational issues formed IdrA to play another series after he had already won. [Still unproven] offensive comments from IdrA caused him to be penalized later again. My opinion is that BigT is catching a lot more flack that he should. I didn't listen to the first 6 hours of his cast, so if something happened during that period then I can't speak about it. Calling IdrA an "a-move Zerg" is no big deal and shouldn't be given a second thought at all. You shouldn't have to stroke players' egos as a caster. Causing organizational issues is another matter as a caster, but I haven't seen BigT do any of that outside of the issue already addressed by the ESL administrators. | ||
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coma
Germany86 Posts
Why didn't anyone ask for a replay to cast with 1 game delay? imo most of the people watched only to see Idra anyways, so why should there be a problem with waiting a bit? On another note: the esports competitions around Starcraft 2 is just starting to grow. Of course there will be upsets like this in the startup, but the community will choose the high quality events over low quality ones over time. The bad ones will simply drop out or get better as new rules for new situations are made and enforced (or not). I have yet to see a completely flawless and well executed event with a high quality cast (King of the Beta was the closest so far) but I am sure there will be one and after that (hopefully) many to follow. | ||
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midway
United States123 Posts
On August 17 2010 06:44 Voyager I wrote: This is actually a good point, although probably not in the way you intended. IdrA berating Silver for playing Terran really should have had some consequences other than getting him laughed at. I agree, we at National ESL should have given him PP for this. In retrospect we should have but honestly since he lost the match this wasn't something we focused on at the time. | ||
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
Now whether or not people want to watch a bias cast is another thing... but hey... we all watch IdrA so a caster bming other players really shouldn't be as big of a deal as the actual opponents bming each other... Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general. | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
On August 16 2010 21:12 floor exercise wrote: The real question is why does ESL give "official" caster designation to a person who: Provokes players and take great pleasure in seeing them punished Cheats on MSN with players he prefers Lies and takes credit for tournaments he does not operate Does everything in his power to have other casters removed from games to hoard viewers (where is the community spirit?) I don't think there has been a single tournament where this guy has not caused trouble thinking he's above the players themselves let alone other casters who are usually significantly better than him, with higher resolution streams that don't lag to shit. Get rid of this clown On August 16 2010 23:47 iCCup.Diamond wrote: This is a very interesting point. One mistake or drama I can forgive, but this laundry list from a guy that is very new to the scene? I don't know if I can swallow that. I actually had to give my casters specific instructions to call me and bring me in the game if BigT started being BigT. I should NEVER have to prepare ahead of time for an asshole caster. As for the people defending the HuK thing, he should not have continued on the game when GG.net people got left out. He should have said "hey guys the gg.net casters got left out, let's re." It's what we would have done and to just allow it to go on is a horrible move and just proves what everyone is saying about BigT. I have never seen a caster cause so many problems in such a short time..... Either way this thread is amazing and I'm going to sit back and watch how this unfolds. Either way I spent the first 2 hours at work today reading the 20+ pages of this tread that popped up while I was asleep. What a interesting day for E-drama.... On August 16 2010 15:39 XiaN wrote: Just to recap the last 15 hours 1.) IdrA refused to let BigT cast his first game after BigT bm'ing IdrA in the ingame chat 2.) HuK forced official gg.net casters to leave his game vs. MorroW because of lag and remade a game with only BigT as caster 3.) After that gg.net refused to let BigT cast the finals of the the EU and US qualifiers and disallowed him to cast the Top8 of the Gosucup. They thought BigT said HuK and MorroW to only let him cast their games ( which is def. not true ) 4.) Either StrifeCro or Jobless cheated an caused 2 rounds of the tournament to be replayed 5.) Chill flaming BigT in his BiggerT stream 6.) The whole IdrA vs. ESL thing Man .. there are golden days to come :D Notice the common thread there? On August 16 2010 15:49 BigT wrote: Why is Big T in so many of those #s hahaha xD | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On August 17 2010 06:47 Chill wrote: The first part is superfluous. IdrA didn't allow casters into his game because he felt it was causing lag / latency issues. The caster complained to the administrator and IdrA was penalized. Later, organizational issues formed IdrA to play another series after he had already won. [Still unproven] offensive comments from IdrA caused him to be penalized later again. I would be mad too if I had to replay a series I already won. And I would throw some angry words too at the very thought of being demanded to replay a series. Did the ESL actually look into it, or did they just go "LOL NOPE" and give him points and call it a day? On August 17 2010 06:45 midway wrote: Incorrected. IdrA used issues with BigT after the fact. For a few weeks now IdrA has been not allowing ANY casters to join his streams and was given PP for it. The rest of the issues come from a different topic that no one seems to talk about. But BigT still did BM IdrA, and he was not punished. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
I don't really have a good solution for this, by the way. There are ways you can disguise wins/losses for an invite-only tournament, but for an open event like this it's not feasible. | ||
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kar1181
United Kingdom515 Posts
But I think what everyone is concerned about, and what doesn't seem to be addressed at all (and this will keep bubbling along like all PR disasters do, until someone, finally, addresses it head on with a mea culpa) is the handling of Idra yesterday by adminstrators both here, on irc and no doubt in person. I don't know what was said in private, but just what was posted, here, in black and white in the forums, was poor conduct. It leads me to think the conduct behind the scenes was even worse. Until this is openly and honestly addressed and blame accepted, this will keep on going on and on. And it wont hurt Idra, he's already a martyr. But your organisation will be the worse for it. | ||
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shrinkmaster
Germany947 Posts
On August 17 2010 06:49 rS.Sinatra wrote: Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general. Yeah that's why they NEVER showed a tennis match of John McEnroe on TV and the commentators are famous millionairs. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
Idra's response of "their fucking idiots and tell them that" warrants a penalty point but they were sensible and made it so he can still play in the masters. The mistakes they made can't be undone and so all we can do is accept this response (it's the best they could do) and hope they learn from this issue. So let's look at the mistakes: 1) It is silly to force players to allow streamers. The lag situation will only get worse as Korean's/Liquid in Korea join tournaments in Europe. Plus we are bound to get issues with stream watching. It's completely uninforcable, drama is incoming if this continues. So it must be optional to allow streamers or just cast replays later. The wasted time trying to get into games is silly anyway, just get the replays sent straight out and it's "as good as" live anyway. 2) Be more consistent / set the rules down early. I was on Idra's side in this incident but clearly you have to sort out bad manner in the games. Why not ban all chat? (except it's lagging etc..) It's simple and effective. If someone is bad mannered to an admin, immediately screen-shot it and post evidence. 3) Lack of communication. You need to get all players on MSN or something. It's not hard just get it sorted before the games. Lack of communication nearly always plays a part in these dramas. | ||
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Dysz
Sweden26 Posts
taking side so hard is not good for the comentating. Also my opinion was that he harrased idrA some and then raged when he wasnt able to cast the stream. BigTs stream is good but yesterday was a bit way to much rage. Dunno how much BigT has to do with this tournament but if he was some sort of admin or something it was very not proffesional | ||
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midway
United States123 Posts
On August 17 2010 06:46 Dycedarg wrote: So I've been following this since last night and every time someone from ESL comes to TL to "clarify" the situation it seems to be worst. First starting with BigT and his "jokes" which made me say to myself, "Well, I'm not gonna watch any stream that BigT does anymore". Then G2Wolf comes on to clarify it some more but just making it worst and so I decided to not watch any streams from ESL. Then what you just said in bold really bothered me. Now, not only am I not going to watch any stream from ESL I will support the Boycott ESL and tell others to do so. The amount of arrogance the admins of ESL showed through out this event is not only hurting them but to e-sports too. You've lost a viewer today and will continue to do so at the rate you are going. You can accuse me of arrogance all you want and it is frustrating at lack understand of the simple point. We are doing this FOR YOU! National ESL is forcing casting and getting people streams to watch give you a better chance to see the game we all love. I'm not trying to attack anyone or create problems. My point is simple; its in everyone's best interest to cast these matches. IdrA should want them casted because it makes him more popular. More fans means more sponsors means more money in his pocket. I dealt with the same issue with CS players back in the day. They couldn't understand why I pushed them to broadcast HLTV and give out demos. The goal here is to make SC2 better, more popular and increase awareness of the sport. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On August 17 2010 06:50 Warrior Madness wrote: There is still the larger issue of BigT: Notice the common thread there? Iccup.Diamond shouldn't be used as evidence against BigT as he clearly has a conflict of interest with BigT. No offense to Diamond but self-advertising on this thread doesn't really help your credibility. Having said that, some of the issues with BigT are real, but we should give him a chance to defend himself. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
pretty sure this was about Idra's PP and how the strife situation would be handled. | ||
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DreXxiN
United States494 Posts
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