Last night was a flurry of activity on the National ESL’s third Intel Extreme Master’s Regular Season Cup for SC2. As many in the community have seen there was an issue with our #1 seed IdrA. There has been a lot of confusion on said issues, let’s clear it up. There were two situations last night. Last night was a flurry of activity on the National ESL’s third Intel Extreme Master’s Regular Season Cup for SC2. As many in the community have seen there was an issue with our #1 seed IdrA. There has been a lot of confusion on said issues, let’s clear it up. There were two situations last night.
Match Issues The first situation was between Jobless and StrifeCro in the 5th round. StrifeCro submitted a win over Jobless because he thought Jobless didn’t show for his match. Jobless submitted a ticket to National ESL about the forfeit win, but in the meantime StrifeCro played both Bubba and IdrA in the following matches. Our admin team looked over the issue and determined because Jobless had screenshots and documentation proving he had tried to contact StrifeCro that his ticket should be approved and the match was overturned.
As everyone was aware IdrA had since left believing he had already qualified for his Semi-Final match and a top four spot. With the StrifeCro versus Jobless match overturned, Jobless played Bubba and lost leaving Bubba to face IdrA in the Quarterfinals. IdrA will be attending Gamescom and will be leaving today (Korea Time). He obviously never intended to play tonight’s Semi-Finals and Finals. This was a point of confusion for some as it was seen that we had forfeited him from the event.
Tonight we will allow Bubba to play instead of IdrA, assuming he can’t show because of travel. Bubba who had already lost to StrifeCro, before the overturned match, won’t be eligible for the Top 4 finish, but will still be allowed to compete for the $100 prize. Bubba, StrifeCro and Jobless can still enter in next week’s Intel Extreme Master’s Cup #4 .
Here are the qualified players from last night’s Cup for the Group Stage of National ESL’s American Championship:
ajtls TT1 MurDeR IdrA
ajtls vs Bubba TT1 vs MurDeR
The above matches will take place tonight at 8pm EST. The winner of the final four players will receive $100.
IdrA situation
The second issue regarded IdrA, specifically. IdrA was informed for his second match that he would be casted on the stream made available to fans. Many have made a point that it’s silly to “force casting” but again even with replays fans should be allowed to watch any match. IdrA has chosen to take part in a tournament intended for American players from Korea. As a citizen of the USA this is his right, but he also must deal with the latency issues involved with this decision and the rules that allow casters and admins to spectate matches. The rules specifically state a player must allow admins and casters to spectate a match if requested and those rules were available before IdrA entered the Cup. Here’s official from the rulebook for Intel Extreme Masters:
3.6.3 Player Responsibility Players cannot refuse to have their matches broadcast, nor can they choose in what manner the match itself will be broadcast. The player agrees to make sufficient accommodation so that broadcasting of matches can take place.
IdrA chose to play his match without a caster in the second round and the third round even after he was informed by an admin in both situations that a caster would be there and should be allowed to observe and cast the game. For this he received 2 penalty points. IdrA then received an additional PP for his verbal abuse of both admins and fellow players. IdrA has been previously warned for his behavior in the tournament including his verbal harassment in earlier cups. These points alone would not get him banned from National ESL and because his reason for missing the semi final is that he is attending Gamescom, which is also an Intel Extreme Masters event, he will not receive additional penalty points for his no-show in tonight’s event.
UPDATE: Just wanted to add the current Qualified Player List and remind everyone the Group Stage will be September 4th-5th:
In addition to penalty points, players and teams may be barred (also known as frozen, locked and barraged) if they have accumulated a certain amount of penalty points: # After obtaining 4 penalty points: 1 week barrage # After obtaining 9 penalty points: 2 weeks barrage # After obtaining 10 penalty points: 1 month barrage
As a rule, the penalty points are deleted after a certain period of time. There are different clearance periods depending on the amount of points: # 1-2 penalty points: 2 months # 3-6 penalty points: 3 months # 7 penalty points: 6 months # 12 penalty points: 2 years (see cheating) Insults result in the following penalties: # Written warning for the first offence # 1 Penalty point + 1 week barrage for the second offence, or first serious offence # 2 Penalty points + 2 weeks barrage for the third offence, or second serious offence # 3 Penalty points + 3 weeks barrage for subsequent offences The admins reserve the right to give additional penalties.
On August 17 2010 04:18 midway wrote: IdrA chose to play his match without a caster in the second round and the third round even after he was informed by an admin in both situations that a caster would be there and should be allowed to observe and cast the game. For this he received 2 penalty points. IdrA then received an additional PP for his verbal abuse of both admins and fellow players. IdrA has been previously warned for his behavior in the tournament including his verbal harassment in earlier cups.
Well, after all the missteps on ESLs part, its good to see they finally manned up and awarded the proper amount of penalty points, resulting in the unbanning of IdrA. Hopefully the rest of the season has less drama and plenty of exciting starcraft.
On August 16 2010 14:52 revoN wrote: Very unprofessional of the ESL. This will hurt you more than it'll hurt IdrA in the long run.
It was unprofessional to give IdrA multiple warnings instead of following our own penalty procedure for the multiple times he's broken our rules, he should have about 10 PP by now instead of just 4. He doesn't want to follow our rules, he's no longer allowed in our cups.
On August 16 2010 15:02 Yotsuba wrote: <G2Wolff> boohoo, i has a whole 1 week ban <--| G2Wolff has left #teamliquid
On August 16 2010 15:05 Shatter wrote: Honestly, I don't know why esl won't just man up and say they were wrong, allow Idra back and just say they will have a 0 tolerance policy for anymore BM from Idra. It would be the most beneficial for both sides.
He's been warned already before this cup that we're not taking any more from him.
On August 16 2010 15:05 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Beef's earlier posted said season, which would be the main reason for people's outrage. If it's a 1 week ban, while still ultimately the wrong decision in this instance, that is at least not ridiculous to the point of absurdity.
On August 16 2010 14:03 esl-beef wrote: ShadowDrgn: Strifeco never responded to Jobless' messages. By the time we saw it, it was after two rounds had been played.
IdrA: If you don't want to play, that's fine. Your lack of respect towards casters, ESL staff, players, and sponsors makes you an insult to pro gamers. You said it best...
People who didn't watch this unfold on stream are going to be so confused. The official statement is nice and all but it was a little deeper then this statement makes it seem. I just hope people who didn't watch it unfold just don't jump to a conclusion.
No, it wasn't "seen" that way, it's explicitly what was said.
There was confusion among everyone involved, including some admins. IdrA's trip to Gamescom confused the situation further.
If you fuck up, say that you fucked up. Man up. I edited my posts to show some quotes explicitly saying that they were banning Idra. There is no confusion about what was said.
I am glad you guys went back on the decision but don't try to cover up what happened with lies.
Hell, if an admin or 2 were idiots and messed up... just say that. Say what actually happened. Just don't try to lie to minimize it.
Seriously I love the ESL, I love anyone who contributes to e-sports. But Integrity... please
On August 17 2010 04:25 Psiclone wrote: What an embarrassment. There should be 0 tolerance for berating players and staff.
hey if I say your gay? does that make me a noob at starcraft? does that make my game lest enjoyable to watch? does that HAVE ANYTHING to do with starcraft and electronic sports?
On August 17 2010 04:18 midway wrote: IdrA situation
The second issue regarded IdrA, specifically. IdrA was informed for his second match that he would be casted on the stream made available to fans. Many have made a point that it’s silly to “force casting” but again even with replays fans should be allowed to watch any match. IdrA has chosen to take part in a tournament intended for American players from Korea. As a citizen of the USA this is his right, but he also must deal with the latency issues involved with this decision and the rules that allow casters and admins to spectate matches. The rules specifically state a player must allow admins and casters to spectate a match if requested and those rules were available before IdrA entered the Cup.
Regardless or not of the rule (which sucks, by the way), I think this is a bit over the top. Forcing IdrA to have spectators in game and cause latency is harmful to the players. It doesn't allow them to perform at peak levels. Not having a player play at his full potential is a bit dumb. It's against the very spirit of ESPORTS.
I assume the ESL people running the show are gamers. What if you were in IdrA's shoes? Do you really think it's fair for a top tier player (mind you, the only westerner on a Korean progaming team) to be put at a disadvantage because you just want more hits for your website?
Please, find another set of players to cast. Let progamers play at their full potential.
Heh, this is some damage control from the organizers. Your casters are shit, and only added fuel to this fire. This whole thing happened because of your own unprofessional attitudes.
I'm glad there was an official statement about this. While travis's concerns are valid and should be addressed, this is at least a strong step in the right direction.
What I don't understand is how they decided that Idra would qualify despite not having played Bubba. Did both players agree to this arrangement?
On August 17 2010 04:31 Mateo0 wrote: Is there rules preventing the said caster (BigT) to go trolling the player(Idra) before asking to cast his games?
We will be reviewing all parties involvement for future events. Just as we have with IdrA.
ESL needs to rework how they handle staff abuse. It's a poor policy to have such toleration. Other gaming organizations have a no-toleration policy and ban any member, no matter how popular and important they are as soon as they insult/abuse staff.
On August 17 2010 04:39 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: They still need to state which comment(s) warranted the second penalty or else it still seems like they're jsut trying to cover their asses.
I'm like the biggest IdrA fan, but seriously, do you really doubt that IdrA didn't say anything bm?
On August 17 2010 04:42 holynorth wrote: ESL needs to rework how they handle staff abuse. It's a poor policy to have such toleration. Other gaming organizations have a no-toleration policy and ban any member, no matter how popular and important they are as soon as they insult/abuse staff.
How about abuse of the players by staff (i.e caster)
On August 17 2010 04:39 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: They still need to state which comment(s) warranted the second penalty or else it still seems like they're jsut trying to cover their asses.
I'm like the biggest IdrA fan, but seriously, do you really doubt that IdrA didn't say anything bm?
This isnt the issue, the issue is transparency I'm going to ignore the other thread and jsut post here.
On August 17 2010 04:42 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: The problem is when you run a points system it must be transparent, people must be able to look at the each and every point and be aware of why it was awarded. If it becomes the common understanding that the admins just throw points around based on their emotions people dont follow the rules anyway because they expect to get points if they do or do not follow the rules. IT's important for them to state which comments warranted the penalty for this sense of transparency.
If they do not state clearly which comments warranted the additional points it will still seem as if they're just trying to cover their asses from the initial comments posted by their admins which travis quoted in the last page.
On August 17 2010 04:18 midway wrote: IdrA situation
The second issue regarded IdrA, specifically. IdrA was informed for his second match that he would be casted on the stream made available to fans. Many have made a point that it’s silly to “force casting” but again even with replays fans should be allowed to watch any match. IdrA has chosen to take part in a tournament intended for American players from Korea. As a citizen of the USA this is his right, but he also must deal with the latency issues involved with this decision and the rules that allow casters and admins to spectate matches. The rules specifically state a player must allow admins and casters to spectate a match if requested and those rules were available before IdrA entered the Cup.
Regardless or not of the rule, I think this is a bit over the top. Forcing IdrA to have spectators in game and cause latency is harmful to the players. It doesn't allow them to perform at peak levels. Not having a player play at his full potential is a bit dumb. It's against the very spirit of ESPORTS.
I assume the ESL people running the show are gamers. What if you were in IdrA's shoes? Do you really think it's fair for a top tier player (mind you, the only westerner on a Korean progaming team) to be put at a disadvantage because you just want more hits for your website?
Please, find another set of players to cast. Let progamers play at their full potential.
and where is the interest of the sponsor? the company give money to the stream show his brand.. so no cast = no show for the company no show = no more money for Esports no money = GO BACK TO SC1 !!
On August 17 2010 04:18 midway wrote: IdrA situation
The second issue regarded IdrA, specifically. IdrA was informed for his second match that he would be casted on the stream made available to fans. Many have made a point that it’s silly to “force casting” but again even with replays fans should be allowed to watch any match. IdrA has chosen to take part in a tournament intended for American players from Korea. As a citizen of the USA this is his right, but he also must deal with the latency issues involved with this decision and the rules that allow casters and admins to spectate matches. The rules specifically state a player must allow admins and casters to spectate a match if requested and those rules were available before IdrA entered the Cup.
Regardless or not of the rule, I think this is a bit over the top. Forcing IdrA to have spectators in game and cause latency is harmful to the players. It doesn't allow them to perform at peak levels. Not having a player play at his full potential is a bit dumb. It's against the very spirit of ESPORTS.
I assume the ESL people running the show are gamers. What if you were in IdrA's shoes? Do you really think it's fair for a top tier player (mind you, the only westerner on a Korean progaming team) to be put at a disadvantage because you just want more hits for your website?
Please, find another set of players to cast. Let progamers play at their full potential.
and where is the interest of the sponsor? the company give money to the stream show his brand.. so no cast = no show for the company no show = no more money for Esports no money = GO BACK TO SC1 !!
Razer sponsored the KotB, all games were casted in replay format. No games were casted live and it worked out fine.
Seems poorly organised but some of the blame can placed on Blizzard for such a horrible set up on battle.net... Spectating games should have no effect on the latency of the other players. If it was coded correctly the spectators clients would "listen" to a "broadcast" of the game events. Just like how HLTV works.
On August 17 2010 04:18 midway wrote: IdrA situation
The second issue regarded IdrA, specifically. IdrA was informed for his second match that he would be casted on the stream made available to fans. Many have made a point that it’s silly to “force casting” but again even with replays fans should be allowed to watch any match. IdrA has chosen to take part in a tournament intended for American players from Korea. As a citizen of the USA this is his right, but he also must deal with the latency issues involved with this decision and the rules that allow casters and admins to spectate matches. The rules specifically state a player must allow admins and casters to spectate a match if requested and those rules were available before IdrA entered the Cup.
Regardless or not of the rule, I think this is a bit over the top. Forcing IdrA to have spectators in game and cause latency is harmful to the players. It doesn't allow them to perform at peak levels. Not having a player play at his full potential is a bit dumb. It's against the very spirit of ESPORTS.
I assume the ESL people running the show are gamers. What if you were in IdrA's shoes? Do you really think it's fair for a top tier player (mind you, the only westerner on a Korean progaming team) to be put at a disadvantage because you just want more hits for your website?
Please, find another set of players to cast. Let progamers play at their full potential.
although I am siding with idra, this specific argument is invalid.
idra CHOOSES to participate in this event knowing that he is from far away and that latency issues will arise. He is well aware of this, he was not promised 100% smooth connection. This is something he will have to risk if he wishes to participate in US events (which I hope he will continue to)
I still don't feel like this issue is closed. Idra is at fault here and he's readily accepted the 2 PP for not allowing a caster, but I have seen no justification for the other 2 PP, nor the acceptance by BigT or ESL for the part they played in this situation.
On August 17 2010 04:42 holynorth wrote: ESL needs to rework how they handle staff abuse. It's a poor policy to have such toleration. Other gaming organizations have a no-toleration policy and ban any member, no matter how popular and important they are as soon as they insult/abuse staff.
How about abuse of the players by staff (i.e caster)
It should be up to the organization to be responsible enough to have professional-acting staff. I agree though its a joke that the casters insult the gamers while casting.
But my opinion stands, most e-sport staff in all gaming organizations are volunteer. There should be no toleration for staff abuse, deserving or not.
Can't the players play, send the demos to the casters after they've done a map, then cast the demos as they play the second map and so on ? This way casters dont lag progamers, idra doesnt whine and everyones happy?
On August 17 2010 04:18 midway wrote: IdrA situation
The second issue regarded IdrA, specifically. IdrA was informed for his second match that he would be casted on the stream made available to fans. Many have made a point that it’s silly to “force casting” but again even with replays fans should be allowed to watch any match. IdrA has chosen to take part in a tournament intended for American players from Korea. As a citizen of the USA this is his right, but he also must deal with the latency issues involved with this decision and the rules that allow casters and admins to spectate matches. The rules specifically state a player must allow admins and casters to spectate a match if requested and those rules were available before IdrA entered the Cup.
Regardless or not of the rule, I think this is a bit over the top. Forcing IdrA to have spectators in game and cause latency is harmful to the players. It doesn't allow them to perform at peak levels. Not having a player play at his full potential is a bit dumb. It's against the very spirit of ESPORTS.
I assume the ESL people running the show are gamers. What if you were in IdrA's shoes? Do you really think it's fair for a top tier player (mind you, the only westerner on a Korean progaming team) to be put at a disadvantage because you just want more hits for your website?
Please, find another set of players to cast. Let progamers play at their full potential.
although I am siding with idra, this specific argument is invalid.
idra CHOOSES to participate in this event knowing that he is from far away and that latency issues will arise. He is well aware of this, he was not promised 100% smooth connection. This is something he will have to risk if he wishes to participate in US events (which I hope he will continue to)
That's fair, but I have a feeling there was no discussion like "You will be required to allow BigT into your games" ahead of time. It seems like the rules were being made as they went.
On August 17 2010 04:39 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: They still need to state which comment(s) warranted the second penalty or else it still seems like they're jsut trying to cover their asses.
I'm like the biggest IdrA fan, but seriously, do you really doubt that IdrA didn't say anything bm?
This isnt the issue, the issue is transparency I'm going to ignore the other thread and jsut post here.
On August 17 2010 04:42 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: The problem is when you run a points system it must be transparent, people must be able to look at the each and every point and be aware of why it was awarded. If it becomes the common understanding that the admins just throw points around based on their emotions people dont follow the rules anyway because they expect to get points if they do or do not follow the rules. IT's important for them to state which comments warranted the penalty for this sense of transparency.
If they do not state clearly which comments warranted the additional points it will still seem as if they're just trying to cover their asses from the initial comments posted by their admins which travis quoted in the last page.
indeed.. they need to tell all of it, if you got nothing to hide, you tell. stating that you don't tell to avoid flaming of either side is jsut not legit
On August 17 2010 04:44 Last Romantic wrote: Imposing avoidable latency on a progamer is really the organizers' fault. I have to side with IdrA here.
yeah, it sounds really unprofessional actually to force that on the players just because it says you can in the rules. you could just as easily cast replays of it to avoid lag and give the audience a chance to view the games. it also seems fallacious to assume what idra's intention are and kick him out of the tournament because of it. i don't know the whole situation but to me it sounds like an administrative problem.
On August 17 2010 04:18 midway wrote: IdrA situation
The second issue regarded IdrA, specifically. IdrA was informed for his second match that he would be casted on the stream made available to fans. Many have made a point that it’s silly to “force casting” but again even with replays fans should be allowed to watch any match. IdrA has chosen to take part in a tournament intended for American players from Korea. As a citizen of the USA this is his right, but he also must deal with the latency issues involved with this decision and the rules that allow casters and admins to spectate matches. The rules specifically state a player must allow admins and casters to spectate a match if requested and those rules were available before IdrA entered the Cup.
Regardless or not of the rule, I think this is a bit over the top. Forcing IdrA to have spectators in game and cause latency is harmful to the players. It doesn't allow them to perform at peak levels. Not having a player play at his full potential is a bit dumb. It's against the very spirit of ESPORTS.
I assume the ESL people running the show are gamers. What if you were in IdrA's shoes? Do you really think it's fair for a top tier player (mind you, the only westerner on a Korean progaming team) to be put at a disadvantage because you just want more hits for your website?
Please, find another set of players to cast. Let progamers play at their full potential.
and where is the interest of the sponsor? the company give money to the stream show his brand.. so no cast = no show for the company no show = no more money for Esports no money = GO BACK TO SC1 !!
Razer sponsored the KotB, all games were casted in replay format. No games were casted live and it worked out fine.
To be fair, the KotB was a special case because there was no other way to deliver the games at release time because starcraft 2 was not up.
I would agree that for serious shows, if that games are to be broadcasted, they need to be broadcasted live. If lag from an obs/caster is a potential problem, there needs to be backup plans in place by the tournament staff, e.g., a secondary obs/caster that can fill in.
On August 17 2010 04:39 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: They still need to state which comment(s) warranted the second penalty or else it still seems like they're jsut trying to cover their asses.
I'm like the biggest IdrA fan, but seriously, do you really doubt that IdrA didn't say anything bm?
On August 17 2010 04:49 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote: @ vyyye So you put replay and livecast on the same level?
It's practically the same thing for the audience, so yes. If you still think it's a bit of a sacrifice you should keep in mind that this guarantees the best latency possible for the players.
This is being dramatized a bit after-the-fact. Nonetheless, criticizing ESL's presentation is one thing, but lambasting their rules--or, rather, implying that rules can be bent because they "go against the spirit of Starcraft" is nonsense. The community and competitive gaming organizations alike do need to treat endeavors more professionally and seriously. It seems, from this post, ESL is trying to at least do this.
It was an American Cup and idrA knew the rules when he signed up for it. Sports players may hate playing in cold/hot weather, listening to annoying horns, or biased referees. Considering professional athletes often get penalized by the NFL, what I would argue the most professional of the franchises, one can infer etiquette is quite important. I'm not trying to get on any sort of holier-than-thou rant here, but it baffles me that people aren't taking the future of the competitive scene into considering before launching into their vitriolic diatribes.
On August 17 2010 04:18 midway wrote: IdrA situation
The second issue regarded IdrA, specifically. IdrA was informed for his second match that he would be casted on the stream made available to fans. Many have made a point that it’s silly to “force casting” but again even with replays fans should be allowed to watch any match. IdrA has chosen to take part in a tournament intended for American players from Korea. As a citizen of the USA this is his right, but he also must deal with the latency issues involved with this decision and the rules that allow casters and admins to spectate matches. The rules specifically state a player must allow admins and casters to spectate a match if requested and those rules were available before IdrA entered the Cup.
Regardless or not of the rule, I think this is a bit over the top. Forcing IdrA to have spectators in game and cause latency is harmful to the players. It doesn't allow them to perform at peak levels. Not having a player play at his full potential is a bit dumb. It's against the very spirit of ESPORTS.
I assume the ESL people running the show are gamers. What if you were in IdrA's shoes? Do you really think it's fair for a top tier player (mind you, the only westerner on a Korean progaming team) to be put at a disadvantage because you just want more hits for your website?
Please, find another set of players to cast. Let progamers play at their full potential.
Don't know nobody ever discussed whats happening to StrifeCro I think it's good though hopefully they're actually discussing and thinking through the decision looking at the evidence etc.
On August 17 2010 04:53 Necrosjef wrote: Sounds fair enough.
So tonight IdrA won't be playing and Bubba will be playing in his stead?
What about StrifeCro? Did he get DQ?
StrifeCro was informed by the admins last night and was DQ. He was aware of the situation and was not given PP because it was poor communication between the players and not malice on either side.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
3.6.3 Player Responsibility Players cannot refuse to have their matches broadcast, nor can they choose in what manner the match itself will be broadcast. The player agrees to make sufficient accommodation so that broadcasting of matches can take place.
That's fair, but I have a feeling there was no discussion like "You will be required to allow BigT into your games" ahead of time. It seems like the rules were being made as they went.
Why is there a need to discuss what is already in the rules?
On August 17 2010 04:44 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: If they do not state clearly which comments warranted the additional points it will still seem as if they're just trying to cover their asses from the initial comments posted by their admins which travis quoted in the last page.
Post this on the other thread related to the same issue....
On August 17 2010 04:45 koshka wrote: [...flaming huh? right.... just tell us please if you don't do it THAT is creating a bigger issue of the situation because you don't look very good if you are not telling the whole story. just seems a bit shady
Honestly you can think its shady or not, but I'd rather have you yelling at us to be "transparent" then creating flame wars between pro and anti-IdrA fans over what is said. The reality is that just like any sport when a person acts out of line they are dealt with in manner related to their behavior.
The NBA doesn't tell the press what a player said in a basketball game when he gets a Technical Foul. When a player gets a yellow or red card in FIFA they don't even tell you what it was for. We are being transparent but also keeping privacy for the obvious necessary reasons.
idra already admitted that he just didnt want his games to be casted and he also accepted the penalty points for that. that issue is pretty much done.
but i dont see how he never planned to complete the games. maybe there is a misunderstanding of when he would be leaving korea for germany because of the different timezones or maybe he just wasnt aware that semifinal games were to be postponed but i really dont think he'd go through all the trouble never planning to finish it.
however, both points were misrepresented in the esl announcement and considering that they'd must've spent quite a bit of time typing that up i don't see why they didn't investigate this properly.
ESL should definitely have D4NNY from WCIP as their head admin in the North American division, that guy is a pimp, and has great administrative experience.
Penalty points for BM? Seriously? The winner should be the best at the game not the best at manners. ESL sounds like it's turning into a garbage organization.
On August 17 2010 04:59 starcraft911 wrote: Penalty points for BM? Seriously? The winner should be the best at the game not the best at manners. ESL sounds like it's turning into a garbage organization.
Is this a joke? if you personally insult someone you should be willing to sacrifice your entire tournament winning, welcome to the real world where actions have consequences.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
On August 17 2010 04:59 starcraft911 wrote: Penalty points for BM? Seriously? The winner should be the best at the game not the best at manners. ESL sounds like it's turning into a garbage organization.
No, that's perfectly acceptable. If there wasn't any restrictions regarding manners the e-sport scene would turn into a major shitfest.
On August 17 2010 04:58 ven wrote: idra already admitted that he just didnt want his games to be casted and he also accepted the penalty points for that. that issue is pretty much done.
but i dont see how he never planned to complete the games. maybe there is a misunderstanding of when he would be leaving for korea because of the timezones or maybe he just wasnt aware that semifinal games were to be postponed but i really dont think he'd go through all the trouble never planning to finish it.
however, both points were misrepresented in the esl announcement and considering that they'd must've spent quite a bit of time typing that up i don't see why they didn't investigate this properly.
The semifinals and finals were always scheduled to be played the day after the rest of the bracket-- that's how all the qualifiers are. Idra certainly knew that in advance, and it doesn't really matter since the 1st place prize is insignificant compared to the prize for top 4
On August 17 2010 04:59 starcraft911 wrote: Penalty points for BM? Seriously? The winner should be the best at the game not the best at manners. ESL sounds like it's turning into a garbage organization.
Every sport in the World has rules against speaking negatively towards an official. FIFA, NBA, NFL, MLB - you name it all have rules related to player and officials interactions. In baseball you can be thrown out of a game if you touch an umpire.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
I dont care if the admins were poking idra with a sharp stick, he shouldnt have insulted them. IdrA just keeps on behaving like a child and tbh it isnt doing anything good for the sc2 community.
Would be sooo ironic if they insulted him first though, it'd be REALLY funny actually
Transparency from ESL is appreciated. About Idra's behavior, I think that in esports as well as in other sports, you have to follow the rules, AND demonstrate sportsmanship. Flouting rules and insulting people is definitely not an evidence of professionnalism.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
I dont care if the admins were poking idra with a sharp stick, he shouldnt have insulted them. IdrA just keeps on behaving like a child and tbh it isnt doing anything good for the sc2 community.
Would be sooo ironic if they insulted him first though, it'd be REALLY funny actually
On August 17 2010 04:44 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: If they do not state clearly which comments warranted the additional points it will still seem as if they're just trying to cover their asses from the initial comments posted by their admins which travis quoted in the last page.
Post this on the other thread related to the same issue....
On August 17 2010 04:45 koshka wrote: [...flaming huh? right.... just tell us please if you don't do it THAT is creating a bigger issue of the situation because you don't look very good if you are not telling the whole story. just seems a bit shady
Honestly you can think its shady or not, but I'd rather have you yelling at us to be "transparent" then creating flame wars between pro and anti-IdrA fans over what is said. The reality is that just like any sport when a person acts out of line they are dealt with in manner related to their behavior.
The NBA doesn't tell the press what a player said in a basketball game when he gets a Technical Foul. When a player gets a yellow or red card in FIFA they don't even tell you what it was for. We are being transparent but also keeping privacy for the obvious necessary reasons.
well this is not a standard penalty procedure. i'm not arguing about that it's unfair that he got pp etc. this is about when he got pp for what, and it's important to clear it as much as you possibly can because right now it looks like someone fucked up and instead of just admitting that and handling the situation that way you try to cover it up and act like some things just never ever happened. and since you mentioned fifa: in a situation like this the would try to clear things up, because angry fans are never a good thing
On August 17 2010 04:59 starcraft911 wrote: Penalty points for BM? Seriously? The winner should be the best at the game not the best at manners. ESL sounds like it's turning into a garbage organization.
Every sport in the World has rules against speaking negatively towards an official. FIFA, NBA, NFL, MLB - you name it all have rules related to player and officials interactions. In baseball you can be thrown out of a game if you touch an umpire.
What are the rules regarding not paying the players what they are owed?
Why the hell would you decide to have BigT be the official streamer? Dude creates drama out of nothing and is a terrible caster. People don't just randomly write "username" is a douche threads for no reason.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
No, it's not different at all. If he's told that he'll be DQ'd, he shouldn't bitch and insult the admins, even if it is the incorrect decision. You talk to them calmly and try to explain everything. There's a certain standard of professionalism we should be holding ALL parties to, not just one or the other.
Idra got the shaft. This cup was completely unprofessional. Idra's a dick, but I would be too if the admins, casters, and organization of the cup looked like it was run by a 2 year old.
BigT really deserves to be removed as a caster from the cup all together if they are going to ban Idra.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
The chat logs appeared after the decisions were made, they weren't a factor at the time.
On August 17 2010 04:59 starcraft911 wrote: Penalty points for BM? Seriously? The winner should be the best at the game not the best at manners. ESL sounds like it's turning into a garbage organization.
Right, because holding players to a certain level of professionalism is a bad thing. I'm pretty sure just about every sport in the world penalizes insulting and poor sportsmanship no matter who the player is, and if e-sports wants to be taken seriously it needs to do the same.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
I dont care if the admins were poking idra with a sharp stick, he shouldnt have insulted them. IdrA just keeps on behaving like a child and tbh it isnt doing anything good for the sc2 community.
Would be sooo ironic if they insulted him first though, it'd be REALLY funny actually
Really? You wouldn't care? I mean REALLY?
Nope, because thats what he does aswell. When he's calling other people idiots and faggots, what does he think other people are gonna treat him like?
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
he called them fucking idiots outside of the game. pretty sure you're allowed to say whatever you want outside of the game.
On August 17 2010 05:10 LawGQ wrote: Idra got the shaft. This cup was completely unprofessional. Idra's a dick, but I would be too if the admins, casters, and organization of the cup looked like it was run by a 2 year old.
BigT really deserves to be removed as a caster from the cup all together if they are going to ban Idra.
And you would deserve to get the swift kick out.
Just because the ESL messed up doesn't justify IdrA messing up either.
They taunted, provoked, and were incredibly rude to IdrA imo and kept him going. Keep on keepin on Idra don't take garbage from unprofessional people leeching off you. Management and organization was terrible they should give themselves penalty points.
On August 17 2010 04:44 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: If they do not state clearly which comments warranted the additional points it will still seem as if they're just trying to cover their asses from the initial comments posted by their admins which travis quoted in the last page.
Post this on the other thread related to the same issue....
On August 17 2010 04:45 koshka wrote: [...flaming huh? right.... just tell us please if you don't do it THAT is creating a bigger issue of the situation because you don't look very good if you are not telling the whole story. just seems a bit shady
Honestly you can think its shady or not, but I'd rather have you yelling at us to be "transparent" then creating flame wars between pro and anti-IdrA fans over what is said. The reality is that just like any sport when a person acts out of line they are dealt with in manner related to their behavior.
The NBA doesn't tell the press what a player said in a basketball game when he gets a Technical Foul. When a player gets a yellow or red card in FIFA they don't even tell you what it was for. We are being transparent but also keeping privacy for the obvious necessary reasons.
To minimize how poorly the issue is being handled, I assume.
What will the consequences be for the poor decisions of the admins? Oh sorry, clearly thats obvious and necessary to keep secret at the same time.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
The chat logs appeared after the decisions were made, they weren't a factor at the time.
What are the rules regarding not paying the players what they are owed?
National ESL owed both HuK and qxc $50 for a Kick Off Cup and Beta Cup we ran. Both players have been paid. National ESL has been operating for around two months. ESL in Europe has other rules and I'm sure they would be happy to answer the situation.
I know the IEM prize money related to the American Championship will be paid after the LAN finals this October for travel expenses. The rest of the money will arrive in a 90 day time period after the event. This is standard procedure for all eSports events. The big reason for this is because sponsors don't give you the money ahead of time to pay the prizes. So the event organizer along with the players have to wait for the money to arrive from the companies involved.
Seems like alot of bullshit over something that could of been avoided just by casting the replays. There no reason the games must be live. Hell there alot of benifets to casting replays over live games anyway. That said Idra just has got to learn to grow up a bit. Unfair rules, bad admin, and shit happens. BMing admins won't help at all. It just gets you banned.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
he called them fucking idiots outside of the game. pretty sure you're allowed to say whatever you want outside of the game.
(at least I hope so)
No, you're not allowed to. There is some rule saying that insults (provided there's sufficient evidence) to their staff is not allowed in game or outside of the game and they reserve to right to penalize you. Can't remember the exact wording, but it's on their homepage.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
he called them fucking idiots outside of the game. pretty sure you're allowed to say whatever you want outside of the game.
Uh no..? Just because there isnt a written rule doesnt mean you can just do whatever you want. It's not like i can just go insult my boss after work without consequences. Bad comparison but whatever.
So wait, you guys fucked up because some guy lied to you and you were deciding to do this all live and have no checks and then not only disqualify a player but also penalize him for being angry about it? You know, being angry about getting kicked out of a tournament for doing nothing wrong? There are rules, but there is also a thing called discretion.
Mistakes happen, it's understandable and with an apology it would only be a minor stain on ESL's reputation, with improvements in the next cup it would be forgotten all together. This kind of indignant rationalization on the other hand, makes me want to hurl vulgarities at you myself.
On August 17 2010 04:58 midway wrote: Honestly you can think its shady or not, but I'd rather have you yelling at us to be "transparent" then creating flame wars between pro and anti-IdrA fans over what is said. The reality is that just like any sport when a person acts out of line they are dealt with in manner related to their behavior.
The NBA doesn't tell the press what a player said in a basketball game when he gets a Technical Foul. When a player gets a yellow or red card in FIFA they don't even tell you what it was for. We are being transparent but also keeping privacy for the obvious necessary reasons.
I have a lot of sympathy for Midway here. He is completely right. People in this thread certainly seem to have no regard for e-sports and only care about what "injustices" happened to their favorite player. Granted, this is no different from regular sports fans, but even so. It's a little ridiculous to have so many people, even important names, be so ignorant about how things have to work if e-sports is to be successful in the west.
On August 17 2010 05:10 LawGQ wrote: Idra got the shaft. This cup was completely unprofessional. Idra's a dick, but I would be too if the admins, casters, and organization of the cup looked like it was run by a 2 year old.
BigT really deserves to be removed as a caster from the cup all together if they are going to ban Idra.
And you would deserve to get the swift kick out.
Just because the ESL messed up doesn't justify IdrA messing up either.
And yes, BigT is a terrible caster.
Idra just returning the same amount of professionalism that was showed to him.
Half of the cup was a joke, (the other half was fine, NP gj guys), but really they just got the level they were giving.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
he called them fucking idiots outside of the game. pretty sure you're allowed to say whatever you want outside of the game.
Uh no..? Just because there isnt a written rule doesnt mean you can just do whatever you want. It's not like i can just go insult my boss after work without consequences. Bad comparison but whatever.
yes, it is a bad comparison and that rule is ridiculous. the fuck does their jurisdiction get to apply to the rest of your life
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
he called them fucking idiots outside of the game. pretty sure you're allowed to say whatever you want outside of the game.
(at least I hope so)
I guess you are in a private conversation, of course, but in public? No.
1.1.1. Insults All insults that occur in connection with the ESL will be punished. This mainly includes insults during a match but also insults within the ESL website (forums, match comments, player comments, support- and protest pages, etc.). Insults via IRC, ICQ, e-mail or other media may be penalized, providing a connection to the ESL is given and provable.
(From that rules page.)
But apparently the quote can't be the reason because it became public after the dq.
dont understand the caster issue. if a player has lag problems everyone should gtfo and let the players play, if u wanna cast, cast the replay but no one wanna see games which r influenced by lag. people should realise that the players are more important than some random shit caster.
On August 17 2010 05:10 LawGQ wrote: Idra got the shaft. This cup was completely unprofessional. Idra's a dick, but I would be too if the admins, casters, and organization of the cup looked like it was run by a 2 year old.
BigT really deserves to be removed as a caster from the cup all together if they are going to ban Idra.
And you would deserve to get the swift kick out.
Just because the ESL messed up doesn't justify IdrA messing up either.
And yes, BigT is a terrible caster.
Idra just returning the same amount of professionalism that was showed to him.
Half of the cup was a joke, (the other half was fine, NP gj guys), but really they just got the level they were giving.
Again, that's not proper justification. If it was, athletes and progamers would be going off left and right at perceived injustices. There's a zero tolerance policy in almost all professional events for a reason.
On August 17 2010 05:18 Sideburn wrote: People in this thread certainly seem to have no regard for e-sports and only care about what "injustices" happened to their favorite player.
Why wrap injustices in quotes? It clearly was an injustice and there is nothing contentious about that. Shit decisions, fuck-ups, and asinine rules from organizers are bad for esports as well.
I'm an IdrA fan but there isn't a single sports league or organization in the world that would sit there and allow participants to berate and insult the people running it, in-game or not. The NBA, NFL and other major sports leagues have fined players for tweeting about refs after games and the like so arguing that there should be no rules for BM in SC2 leagues is pretty foolish.
On August 17 2010 05:16 Streltsy wrote: So wait, you guys fucked up because some guy lied to you and you were deciding to do this all live and have no checks and then not only disqualify a player but also penalize him for being angry about it? You know, being angry about getting kicked out of a tournament for doing nothing wrong? There are rules, but there is also a thing called discretion.
Mistakes happen, it's understandable and with an apology it would only be a minor stain on ESL's reputation, with improvements in the next cup it would be forgotten all together. This kind of indignant rationalization on the other hand, makes me want to hurl vulgarities at you myself.
We resolved the situation in the best we can. Two players were unable to communicate and one of them made a mistake in reporting the issue as a forfeit win for himself. We corrected the issue and gave all parties involved a fair chance to play in our event.
We will be reviewing ways to make the event work better but at the end of the day we ran a 375 player event with over 4k people watching on video streams. While drama obviously has made this bigger issue, at the end of the day just like everyone here we are trying to build up a bigger audience and a more desirable venue for everyone who enjoys SC2 to play.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
he called them fucking idiots outside of the game. pretty sure you're allowed to say whatever you want outside of the game.
(at least I hope so)
Just like you are technically allowed to say whatever you want in real life (in any country with freedom of speech at least). But at the same time, even if you are allowed to say whatever you want, if you insult a person in particular (even if you do not insult the person while being with them or while doing an activity related to that person), that said person can decide on consequences. (ie the job example earlier, I can insult my boss all I want when im not at work, but if he hears about it he still can fire me (and probably will). )
On August 17 2010 05:20 travis wrote:
yes, it is a bad comparison and that rule is ridiculous. the fuck does their jurisdiction get to apply to the rest of your life
A player accepts to play in a certain tournament, thus accepting the jurisdiction. If Idra didnt want to apply by the rules because he didnt love them, he could simply have not participated.
The fact of loving the rules or not is not important once you have agreed to these said rules.
I'm not really interested in the specifics of this, and don't claim to know who is in the right - speaking generally, it's just crazy to me how unprofessional idra is. This is his JOB, it's not 'cool' that he has no self control, it's pathetic.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
he called them fucking idiots outside of the game. pretty sure you're allowed to say whatever you want outside of the game.
(at least I hope so)
You're kidding, right? It's absolutely ridiculous to think harassment out of game shouldn't 'count'.
Why would they want to kick IdrA for no reason? How could that possibly help them continue to drive these tournaments?
I feel like alot of people are just looking for drama, there is none - Idra called tournament officials "fucking idiots", he got the boot, case closed.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
he called them fucking idiots outside of the game. pretty sure you're allowed to say whatever you want outside of the game.
(at least I hope so)
You're kidding, right? It's absolutely ridiculous to think harassment out of game shouldn't 'count'.
I'm not really interested in the specifics of this, and don't claim to know who is in the right - I just want to note that speaking generally, it's just crazy to me how unprofessional idra is. This is his JOB, it's not 'cool' that he has no self control, it's pathetic.
maybe u don't know what harrassment is. if you talk about someone while they aren't there that isn't even remotely close to being harrassment.
On August 17 2010 05:18 Sideburn wrote: People in this thread certainly seem to have no regard for e-sports and only care about what "injustices" happened to their favorite player.
Why wrap injustices in quotes? It clearly was an injustice and there is nothing contentious about that. Shit decisions, fuck-ups, and asinine rules from organizers are bad for esports as well.
Because it is a matter of opinion. Obviously we have seen a lot of people in this thread feel like IdrA was 100% in the wrong, while on the other hand there are some that feel he was completely justified in everything that he did.
At any rate, I guarantee you that there wouldn't be this level of hubbub about such an issue if the player wasn't IdrA. Certainly not this level of sycophancy.
On August 17 2010 05:25 ELA wrote: Their tournament, their rules, their descision...
Why would they want to kick IdrA for no reason? How could that possibly help them continue to drive these tournaments?
I feel like alot of people are just looking for drama, there is none - Idra called tournament officials "fucking idiots", he got the boot, case closed.
IdrA got the boot before they knew that he called them 'fucking idiots'. The chat logs were released afterwards. Get your facts straight.
On August 17 2010 05:25 ELA wrote: Their tournament, their rules, their descision...
Why would they want to kick IdrA for no reason? How could that possibly help them continue to drive these tournaments?
I feel like alot of people are just looking for drama, there is none - Idra called tournament officials "fucking idiots", he got the boot, case closed.
Seriously, if you're not going to read the old thread, don't post. There are way too many people doing this.
I came in here expecting some resolution, transparency or accountability... silly me.
What exactly does this post even resolve? It refuses to acknowledge that CertainESLStaffMembers jumped the gun and banned IdrA last night. It took the the entire night for them to resolve this issue.
This post doest even acknowledge the appallingly short notice IdrA received for his rematch, or official "casters" who BM'd one of the players and got him banned when said player refused to let him cast.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
he called them fucking idiots outside of the game. pretty sure you're allowed to say whatever you want outside of the game.
(at least I hope so)
You're kidding, right? It's absolutely ridiculous to think harassment out of game shouldn't 'count'.
I'm not really interested in the specifics of this, and don't claim to know who is in the right - I just want to note that speaking generally, it's just crazy to me how unprofessional idra is. This is his JOB, it's not 'cool' that he has no self control, it's pathetic.
IdrA wasn't harrassing anyone, he was talking with a friend and did nothing to the friend. And correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have been reading, IdrA has been harassed by the organization. So I guess the organization is unprofessional then?
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
he called them fucking idiots outside of the game. pretty sure you're allowed to say whatever you want outside of the game.
(at least I hope so)
You're kidding, right? It's absolutely ridiculous to think harassment out of game shouldn't 'count'.
I'm not really interested in the specifics of this, and don't claim to know who is in the right - I just want to note that speaking generally, it's just crazy to me how unprofessional idra is. This is his JOB, it's not 'cool' that he has no self control, it's pathetic.
maybe u don't know what harrassment is. if you talk about someone while they aren't there that isn't even remotely close to being harrassment.
What you said should be allowed includes what most people would consider harassment. I don't know whether idra harassed anyone, I'm taking issue with your general position.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
he called them fucking idiots outside of the game. pretty sure you're allowed to say whatever you want outside of the game.
(at least I hope so)
You're kidding, right? It's absolutely ridiculous to think harassment out of game shouldn't 'count'.
I'm not really interested in the specifics of this, and don't claim to know who is in the right - I just want to note that speaking generally, it's just crazy to me how unprofessional idra is. This is his JOB, it's not 'cool' that he has no self control, it's pathetic.
maybe u don't know what harrassment is. if you talk about someone while they aren't there that isn't even remotely close to being harrassment.
What you said should be allowed includes what most people would consider harassment. I don't know whether idra harassed anyone, I'm taking issue with your definition.
i would agree with you if he was actually talking to them.. but he was talking to his friend. Thusly it should qualify as hearsay and even if it reaches the ears/eyes of ESL people it certainly is not harassment.
and that rule is ridiculous. the fuck does their jurisdiction get to apply to the rest of your life
I've agreed with 99% of everything else you've said but this, no. As the part that organizes everything they can rightly expect you not to critizise or spoil what they do. You see this in every sports, football players are for instance not allowed to critizise referee's after the games are played in any public forum without fear of a penalty for it. Why should e-sports be any different?
It's not as if they are punishing him beyond their sphere of influence they are simply saying, critizise us as much as you want, but if you do, you are not welcome to participate.
It's the same in real life, shit talk a friend, and he has every right not to invite you to his party.
On August 17 2010 05:10 LawGQ wrote: Idra got the shaft. This cup was completely unprofessional. Idra's a dick, but I would be too if the admins, casters, and organization of the cup looked like it was run by a 2 year old.
BigT really deserves to be removed as a caster from the cup all together if they are going to ban Idra.
And you would deserve to get the swift kick out.
Just because the ESL messed up doesn't justify IdrA messing up either.
And yes, BigT is a terrible caster.
Idra just returning the same amount of professionalism that was showed to him.
Half of the cup was a joke, (the other half was fine, NP gj guys), but really they just got the level they were giving.
Again, that's not proper justification. If it was, athletes and progamers would be going off left and right at perceived injustices. There's a zero tolerance policy in almost all professional events for a reason.
Officials are punished for baiting players in just about every sport I can think of.
Insults via IRC, ICQ, e-mail or other media may be penalized, providing a connection to the ESL is given and provable.
doesn't this mean if he is actually communicating with ESL people. not like, with his friend and then that person posts the chat log
The wording is a little fuzzy around the "connection" part. I agree, if it's really a private conversation which he didn't know would be published, he shouldn't be liable for that. But he said "tell them I said they're fucking idiots", so ...
and that rule is ridiculous. the fuck does their jurisdiction get to apply to the rest of your life
I've agreed with 99% of everything else you've said but this, no. As the part that organizes everything they can rightly expect you not to critizise or spoil what they do. You see this in every sports, football players are for instance not allowed to critizise referee's after the games are played in any public forum without fear of a penalty for it. Why should e-sports be any different?
It's not as if they are punishing him beyond their sphere of influence they are simply saying, critizise us as much as you want, but if you do, you are not welcome to participate.
It's the same in real life, shit talk a friend, and he has every right not to invite you to his party.
dude, of course he has every right to do what he wants. of course they have every right to do what they want if it's in their rules. what I am talking about is if it is actually a good rule.
anyways, it seems the rule isn't actually about talking shit about the ESL, it's about talking shit TO them.
On August 17 2010 05:22 travis wrote: oh ok that sounds more reasonable, but
Insults via IRC, ICQ, e-mail or other media may be penalized, providing a connection to the ESL is given and provable.
doesn't this mean if he is actually communicating with ESL people. not like, with his friend and then that person posts the chat log
The wording is a little fuzzy around the "connection" part. I agree, if it's really a private conversation which he didn't know would be published, he shouldn't be liable for that. But he said "tell them I said they're fucking idiots", so ...
ok I agree with you in principle but in technicality I think that would be hearsay
what im wondering is if he posted something like "the ESL are incompetent baboons" in a blog on TL, would he get penalized for that? just curious about how these rules work
On August 17 2010 05:10 LawGQ wrote: Idra got the shaft. This cup was completely unprofessional. Idra's a dick, but I would be too if the admins, casters, and organization of the cup looked like it was run by a 2 year old.
BigT really deserves to be removed as a caster from the cup all together if they are going to ban Idra.
And you would deserve to get the swift kick out.
Just because the ESL messed up doesn't justify IdrA messing up either.
And yes, BigT is a terrible caster.
Idra just returning the same amount of professionalism that was showed to him.
Half of the cup was a joke, (the other half was fine, NP gj guys), but really they just got the level they were giving.
Again, that's not proper justification. If it was, athletes and progamers would be going off left and right at perceived injustices. There's a zero tolerance policy in almost all professional events for a reason.
Officials are punished for baiting players in just about every sport I can think of.
...So? That has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion about IdrA's BM.
Or are you continuing to try and justify IdrA's BM with "two wrongs make a right"?
You could write a huge letter apologizing for the issue, but you cannot blame IdrA for what happened.
Take the responsability.
Quite the hypocritical sentences there. How can you say this and not expect IdrA to take responsibility for being BM?
IdrA should be able to do whatever the hell he wants as long as he is as good as he is. That time of attititude is expected from the best rock stars, the best athlets, etc. If a B-lister pulls that shit, knock them out.
IdrA is a big name who tournaments need and that should just be expected.
On August 17 2010 05:26 Hapahauli wrote: I came in here expecting some resolution, transparency or accountability... silly me.
What exactly does this post even resolve? It refuses to acknowledge that CertainESLStaffMembers jumped the gun and banned IdrA last night. It took the the entire night for them to resolve this issue.
This post doest even acknowledge the appallingly short notice IdrA received for his rematch, or official "casters" who BM'd one of the players and got him banned when said player refused to let him cast.
Pitiful.
Many of this issues are answered. IdrA's travel plans made it impossible to give him more notice of reschedule. Many of the comments and reactions to last night's drama were unfortunate and not necessary, on both sides. We have admitted to confusion and issues related to this. Again you are making the mistake like many others of merging two very separate issues. The PP and the rescheduling are not the same issue and as such should be taken that way.
and that rule is ridiculous. the fuck does their jurisdiction get to apply to the rest of your life
I've agreed with 99% of everything else you've said but this, no. As the part that organizes everything they can rightly expect you not to critizise or spoil what they do. You see this in every sports, football players are for instance not allowed to critizise referee's after the games are played in any public forum without fear of a penalty for it. Why should e-sports be any different?
It's not as if they are punishing him beyond their sphere of influence they are simply saying, critizise us as much as you want, but if you do, you are not welcome to participate.
It's the same in real life, shit talk a friend, and he has every right not to invite you to his party.
same could be applied for dumb rules. you host a tourney, you can do whatever you want but that doesn't exempt you from the scorn of the community. idra might be a dick at times but that's just idra. i think it shows a severe lack of professionalism to ban a top player from your tournament because he called you a name. people drawing parallels to other sports should really stop because i personally find the honesty that's present on the internet refreshing, i don't want our community to turn into some huge PC-fest where players and influential people aren't able to speak their mind.
On August 17 2010 05:34 Ndugu wrote: IdrA should be able to do whatever the hell he wants as long as he is as good as he is. That time of attititude is expected from the best rock stars, the best athlets, etc. If a B-lister pulls that shit, knock them out.
IdrA is a big name who tournaments need and that should just be expected.
Honestly we don't run tournament for IdrA. We run tournaments for the entire audience. I'm 100% more curious how many players sign up then who signs up. 375 people signed up to play on ESL last night.
On August 17 2010 05:34 Ndugu wrote: IdrA should be able to do whatever the hell he wants as long as he is as good as he is. That time of attititude is expected from the best rock stars, the best athlets, etc. If a B-lister pulls that shit, knock them out.
IdrA is a big name who tournaments need and that should just be expected.
That's illogical, to say the least. You want any disruptive behaviour to be accepted depending on the skill of the player? Bad manners are bad manners whether you're in copper or you're winning the WCG.
The 'real sports' comparisons seem rather misdirected in this case. Those sports bodies conduct themselves professionally. It seems as if that was not the case here with the ESL. It's completely right that they have rules regarding competitor behaviour and that they are enforced strictly. However, the assumption is always that the governing body itself is completely professional. To the many people saying that idrA's poor behaviour is 'detrimental to esports', ESL's conduct is far worse.
Imagine a sport where a referee incites a shouting match with a player.
On August 17 2010 05:34 Ndugu wrote: IdrA should be able to do whatever the hell he wants as long as he is as good as he is. That time of attititude is expected from the best rock stars, the best athlets, etc. If a B-lister pulls that shit, knock them out.
IdrA is a big name who tournaments need and that should just be expected.
Honestly we don't run tournament for IdrA. We run tournaments for the entire audience. I'm 100% more curious how many players sign up then who signs up. 375 people signed up to play on ESL last night.
That's a strange attitude considering I, and I am guessing the majority of the audience, don't care about 350 of the 375 players.
Although I obviously have no personal experience, what Day[9] has said about IdrA and his organization and professionalism make me side with him. If you are going to have a rule that players are required to allow commentators and/or tournament organizers into the match (even if it causes the game to lag) then I can see why top level players are going to become very angry. Fortunately the IEM realizes that the players make the tournament and adjusted their rulings to keep the tournament moving forward in a way that represents the most likely outcome.
Still it is clear from what I am reading that it is the fault of the tournament organization for not being able to deal with this issue. If it is your true intention to cast every match, regardless of the effect of the observers on the game, then you should have imposed the ban on IdrA. If you are willing to bend the rules for popular gamers, then you might as well allow those players to send you the replays of the games they play because this kind of situation is bound to happen over and over again especially in the first few months of the games release.
As a last point about casters. So far, from what I have seen there are way too many casters being allowed into tournament matches. In many cases the casters are causing games to lag, preventing the tournaments from running smoothly. As a caster, it should be your responsibility to ensure that you do not lag on the server the game is being hosted on. Tournament organizers should be limiting broadcasts to 3 or 4 languages from reliable casters and have referees in place to ensure that popular players (i.e. those being casted) have their requests honored during the early rounds of the tournament. Notice how the popular players are often 1-2 rounds behind? It is always the same reason. . . restarting the game over and over.
There is often the issue of people "claiming" to be casters joining the game as well. This is solved simply by providing a list of casters with IDs the same way the players are listed. Making all of the observers referees is also something that should be standardized to prevent harassment during casting.
It's still early, give the tournament organizers a break for now, but the organization I have seen thus far has ranged from acceptable to terrible tournament to tournament. I think it will improve over time.
On August 17 2010 05:34 midway wrote: Many of this issues are answered. IdrA's travel plans made it impossible to give him more notice of reschedule. Many of the comments and reactions to last night's drama were unfortunate and not necessary, on both sides. We have admitted to confusion and issues related to this. Again you are making the mistake like many others of merging two very separate issues. The PP and the rescheduling are not the same issue and as such should be taken that way.
Man you guys are terrible at PR, way to ruin your image.
All we all want is you to say "Look, we fucked up. Here is why...blah blah blah...We're sorry we let down our fans, we're going to do whatever it takes to make sure something like this doesn't happen again."
EVERYONE here knows you guys fucked up, avoiding the issue isn't going to help you.
US ESL is so damn prejudice towards Idra. They can just spout lame accusations of BM without _any_ proof, and every drone out there immediately agrees, and every one is satisfied.
Honestly, I have no desire to watch the rest of your tournament because of the way BigT is, and your BLATANTLY OBVIOUS hate for idra. Honestly, he is probably in the top 3 best SC2 players in the world and we have shoddy casters like BigT BMing him constantly and then you guys jumping the gun.
ESL, you are doing a bad job. We aren't telling you this because we don't like you (like how you don't like idra), we are telling you it because you are doing a bad job.
Just hire day9, rename yourselves day9esl, and have him take care of your tournaments and cast the games. He did a way better job.
On August 17 2010 05:26 Hapahauli wrote: I came in here expecting some resolution, transparency or accountability... silly me.
What exactly does this post even resolve? It refuses to acknowledge that CertainESLStaffMembers jumped the gun and banned IdrA last night. It took the the entire night for them to resolve this issue.
This post doest even acknowledge the appallingly short notice IdrA received for his rematch, or official "casters" who BM'd one of the players and got him banned when said player refused to let him cast.
Pitiful.
Many of this issues are answered. IdrA's travel plans made it impossible to give him more notice of reschedule. Many of the comments and reactions to last night's drama were unfortunate and not necessary, on both sides. We have admitted to confusion and issues related to this. Again you are making the mistake like many others of merging two very separate issues. The PP and the rescheduling are not the same issue and as such should be taken that way.
You have addressed the penalty for breach of rules by a player.
You have NOT addressed the poor conduct of your casters and admins. You have not even acknowledged that any mistake was made by them.
SC2 is young. You are trying to establish yourself as a 'professional body' with a new audience. This is NOT the way to go about it.
Harassment out of the game is as serious as in-game. The situation is still that you're insulting referees or admins, something which under no conditions should be allowed. Wherever it happens it has the same impact and the same result of undermining ones authority. If you want to play in a tournament you are to treat the referees with respect. Mistakes do happen, this is something people need to learn to respect as well. If everyone here on TL insulted us every time a mistake was made nobody on the TL staff would still be working here. Most of us are adults and most of us would like to see StarCraft flourish as a professional sport. You can't go and insult people every time they make a stupid decision.
I haven't seen quotes on the exact situation, there are of course exceptions such as where the referee is taunting or downright insulting the player himself so my post does not specifically apply to this situation. It's simply meant to show my opinion on situations like this in a more general setting.
About casters being in games there are many things to consider. First of all the rule that a player must allow a caster is a good rule. The trick is in the enforcement of it. This is a good rule because players are unpredictable and you are dealing with 400 unpredictable potentially loose cannons. An organization must at all time keep the power of deciding whether people should be allowed to watch in their own hands. sometimes players are reasonable and only complain when there is lag, other times players behave like kids and do unreasonable things such as complaining about lag when there is none, simply for the fact that they are tilted or dislike a certain obs or caster. Tournament rules have to be made in such a manner that they account for the worst possible situation. Then when situations arise a tournament organizer may opt not to apply the rules because he feels this is more fair.
So when you establish the original rule about players being forced to allow casters is a good one we arrive at the core of the problem in this tournament. That is a player with a subjectively bad attitude being faced with a potentially unreasonable referee who can refer to the rules to protect himself. This all could have been avoided if players would simply treat people with more respect. That does not mean he was wrong in his complaints at all do not misunderstand my point, but for large organizations such as the ESL it is very hard to completely control every single link in their company structure. In this giant of an organization you are basically guaranteed people are going to make mistakes and if players don't care about being decent others they should start caring about being decent in order to help themselves.
On August 17 2010 05:45 Argolis wrote: What did BigT say/do that has everyone up in arms?
He's constantly causing trouble in every tournament he casts in. He's pissing off viewers by BMing players, he's pissing off casters by telling the tournament organisers the tournament is his and they can't cast. He even cheats by telling Huk what his opponent is doing, but that wasn't in the IEM.
On August 17 2010 05:39 Chill wrote: That's a strange attitude considering I, and I am guessing the majority of the audience, don't care about 350 of the 375 players.
We aren't at the point yet were 25 players will be enough to support the rest of the community. We need 100,000's of people active and involved making this community bigger. At the end of the day its about the size of the community, that opens the doors for the future.
On August 17 2010 05:45 Argolis wrote: What did BigT say/do that has everyone up in arms?
He complained to the admins about not being able to cast IdrA's matches when the admins told him he would be able to. (IMO, more ESL's fault than BigT's. Who gives a caster permission to cast specific games and then doesn't inform the player?)
He then attempted some BM humor at IdrA that everyone took out of context.
He then attempted some more humor in the TL IRC and got quoted out of context (saying he is the one that issued the bans etc)
You are so smart nazgul I agree completly. I would add that if the idra is in the semi finals in or w/e he should expect the games to be casted. If one casted is causing lag but no another casted i think it is fair for him to expect the game to be casted by the lag free caster but if all casters are going to cause lag he should just have to deal with it. That is the disadvantage of playing in korea.
ESL, seriously, why would you give pp to Idra for talking with a friend. The ESL-rules are not very deliberate at all...
@midway.The audience does not care about most of your 375 players. Players like Idra are the reason people follow your tournament and watch your stream.
On August 17 2010 05:46 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Harassment out of the game is as serious as in-game. The situation is still that you're insulting referees or admins, something which under no conditions should be allowed. Wherever it happens it has the same impact and the same result of undermining ones authority. If you want to play in a tournament you are to treat the referees with respect. Mistakes do happen, this is something people need to learn to respect as well. If everyone insulted here on TL every time a mistake was made nobody on the TL staff would still be working here. Most of us are adults and most of us would like to see StarCraft flourish as a professional sport. You can't go and insult people every time they make a stupid decision.
I haven't seen quotes on the exact situation, there are of course exceptions such as where the referee is taunting or downright insulting the player himself so my post does not specifically apply to this situation. It's simply meant to show my opinion on situations like this in a more general setting.
About casters being in games there are many things to consider. First of all the rule that a player must allow a caster is a good rule. The trick is in the enforcement of it. This is a good rule because players are unpredictable and you are dealing with 400 unpredictable potentially loose cannons. An organization must at all time keep the power of deciding whether people should be allowed to watch in their own hands. sometimes players are reasonable and only complain when there is lag, other times players behave like kids and do unreasonable things such as complaining about lag when there is none. Simply for the fact that they are tilted or dislike a certain obs or caster. Tournament rules have to be made in such a manner that they account for the worst possible situation. Then when situations arise a tournament organizer may opt not to apply the rules because he feels this is more fair.
So when you establish the original rule about players being forced to allow casters is a good one we arrive at the core of the problem in this tournament. That is a player with a subjectively bad attitude being faced with a potentially unreasonable referee who can refer to the rules to protect himself. This all could have been avoided if players would simply treat people with more respect. That does not mean he was wrong in his complaints at all do not misunderstand my point, but for large organizations such as the ESL it is very hard to completely control every single link in their company structure. In this giant of an organization you are basically guaranteed people are going to make mistakes and if players don't care about being decent others they should start caring about being decent in order to help themselves.
While I agree with you on all of those points, you did not mention anything at all about bigT calling Idra the "a move zerg" and CONSTANTLY BMing other amazing players. He is annoying people so much that Chill, a huge member of TL, decided to BM bigT with his BIggerT stream.
Most people are agreeing idra overreacted, but nothing is being done on the basis of WHY idra didn't want BigT casting. Honestly, BigT is rude. He doesn't belong in these huge tourneys, and if I was a top notch player like Idra, I wouldn't want some rank 70 diamond guy telling me I'm an A move zerg while I'm playing.
And he was lagging idra. Its a special circumstance. The guy is in Korea. He is doing so much for esports its not even funny just by being an amazing US player over there.
On August 17 2010 05:44 Surrealz wrote: Please, just remove BigT from the web, and clean Idra's record. Idra is doing more for SC2 than 99.9999999% of this population, including the casters.
If anything, IdrA's BM is hurting e-sports' attempts at becoming respected. Having the best westerner in the world act like this isn't good for the scene.
Didn't IdrA say himself that he had no grudge with BigT, he simply didn't want to be casted and would've acted the same way no matter what caster it was. Looks like you're just trying to stir up more shit here.
On August 17 2010 05:45 Argolis wrote: What did BigT say/do that has everyone up in arms?
He complained to the admins about not being able to cast IdrA's matches when the admins told him he would be able to. (IMO, more ESL's fault than BigT's. Who gives a caster permission to cast specific games and then doesn't inform the player?)
He then attempted some BM humor at IdrA that everyone took out of context.
He then attempted some more humor in the TL IRC and got quoted out of context (saying he is the one that issued the bans etc)
Care to explain the context to us? Because what I read didn't look at all to be taken out of context.
On August 17 2010 05:42 Surrealz wrote: Honestly, I have no desire to watch the rest of your tournament because of the way BigT is, and your BLATANTLY OBVIOUS hate for idra. Honestly, he is probably in the top 3 best SC2 players in the world and we have shoddy casters like BigT BMing him constantly and then you guys jumping the gun.
Just saying this again, iCCup TV will be casting tonight. I could care less to get dragged into this ESL / IdrA drama, but if you want to see a PROFESSIONAL cast from a group that has a long running track record of being on of the best organizations in Starcraft please tune into iCCup TV tonight.
This is all pretty crazy but iCCup TV only cares about bringing you high level professional matches with professional commentary and we will continue to do this regardless of all the drama going on otherwise.
On August 17 2010 05:26 Hapahauli wrote: I came in here expecting some resolution, transparency or accountability... silly me.
What exactly does this post even resolve? It refuses to acknowledge that CertainESLStaffMembers jumped the gun and banned IdrA last night. It took the the entire night for them to resolve this issue.
This post doest even acknowledge the appallingly short notice IdrA received for his rematch, or official "casters" who BM'd one of the players and got him banned when said player refused to let him cast.
Pitiful.
Many of this issues are answered. IdrA's travel plans made it impossible to give him more notice of reschedule. Many of the comments and reactions to last night's drama were unfortunate and not necessary, on both sides. We have admitted to confusion and issues related to this. Again you are making the mistake like many others of merging two very separate issues. The PP and the rescheduling are not the same issue and as such should be taken that way.
What exactly have you answered? All you have admitted to is "confusion" and "drama," when there's plenty of evidence that ESL staff botched the current situation pretty badly.
Most of us are looking for you to acknowledge the mistakes of your subordinates and casters, instead of dismissing it as mutual "confusion."
On August 17 2010 04:44 Last Romantic wrote: Imposing avoidable latency on a progamer is really the organizers' fault. I have to side with IdrA here.
I agree with this.
Have the casters cast replays. I will echo the above because it is an extremely fair, and my exact, point: Imposing avoidable latency on (any gamer) is really the organizer's fault.
Nazgul I can't help but feel like you might be replying to me since I was the only person criticizing that the ESL's rules would carry past the actual game into the outter world.
To clarify I would never be ok with harrassment, that wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about when you are criticizing or insulting the ESL but not actually communicating with the ESL but rather another person or party. I still don't actually understand if the rules condone that or not but if they don't I think that's real shitty.
On August 17 2010 04:36 ffz wrote: Idra just needs to win 2 or 3 of these in a row so that next time they do this crap to them he'll just go to some other tourney.
Hopefully ESL actually pays him this time.
ESL does pay out eventually, it's just not instant. Blame the sponsors.
I don't think BigT means to be offensive; he just doesn't realize when he is. His attempted humor certainly didn't do anything to help the situation, but that's equal parts IdrA being a bitch.
As for IdrA...if he wants to be respected as a professional, he's going to have to learn to act like one sooner or later. That means respecting your opponents and associated organizations and even putting up with other people's bullshit without calling anyone names. I honestly give credit to any organization willing to pull the cord on him if he insists on acting like a dick.
This isn't to say that BigT shouldn't be talked to about his own conduct.
On August 17 2010 05:51 Surrealz wrote: While I agree with you on all of those points, you did not mention anything at all about bigT calling Idra the "a move zerg" and CONSTANTLY BMing other amazing players. He is annoying people so much that Chill, a huge member of TL, decided to BM bigT with his BIggerT stream.
Most people are agreeing idra overreacted, but nothing is being done on the basis of WHY idra didn't want BigT casting. Honestly, BigT is rude. He doesn't belong in these huge tourneys, and if I was a top notch player like Idra, I wouldn't want some rank 70 diamond guy telling me I'm an A move zerg while I'm playing.
And he was lagging idra. Its a special circumstance. The guy is in Korea. He is doing so much for esports its not even funny just by being an amazing US player over there.
Let me say that's inaccurate. You are suggesting that IdrA didn't want casters because it was BigT. The reality is that IdrA has been denying ANY caster who wants to broadcast his match while playing in National ESL. A pattern of behavior that started prior to last night.
On August 17 2010 05:46 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Harassment out of the game is as serious as in-game. The situation is still that you're insulting referees or admins, something which under no conditions should be allowed. Wherever it happens it has the same impact and the same result of undermining ones authority. If you want to play in a tournament you are to treat the referees with respect. Mistakes do happen, this is something people need to learn to respect as well. If everyone insulted here on TL every time a mistake was made nobody on the TL staff would still be working here. Most of us are adults and most of us would like to see StarCraft flourish as a professional sport. You can't go and insult people every time they make a stupid decision.
I haven't seen quotes on the exact situation, there are of course exceptions such as where the referee is taunting or downright insulting the player himself so my post does not specifically apply to this situation. It's simply meant to show my opinion on situations like this in a more general setting.
About casters being in games there are many things to consider. First of all the rule that a player must allow a caster is a good rule. The trick is in the enforcement of it. This is a good rule because players are unpredictable and you are dealing with 400 unpredictable potentially loose cannons. An organization must at all time keep the power of deciding whether people should be allowed to watch in their own hands. sometimes players are reasonable and only complain when there is lag, other times players behave like kids and do unreasonable things such as complaining about lag when there is none, simply for the fact that they are tilted or dislike a certain obs or caster. Tournament rules have to be made in such a manner that they account for the worst possible situation. Then when situations arise a tournament organizer may opt not to apply the rules because he feels this is more fair.
So when you establish the original rule about players being forced to allow casters is a good one we arrive at the core of the problem in this tournament. That is a player with a subjectively bad attitude being faced with a potentially unreasonable referee who can refer to the rules to protect himself. This all could have been avoided if players would simply treat people with more respect. That does not mean he was wrong in his complaints at all do not misunderstand my point, but for large organizations such as the ESL it is very hard to completely control every single link in their company structure. In this giant of an organization you are basically guaranteed people are going to make mistakes and if players don't care about being decent others they should start caring about being decent in order to help themselves.
So well thought out, I am in complete awe.
All of this is perfectly true, and especially important and good because it applies to a general situation.
I wish TL wasn't so rampant with sycophancy, it seems to cloud a lot of people's judgment.
On August 17 2010 05:42 Surrealz wrote: Honestly, I have no desire to watch the rest of your tournament because of the way BigT is, and your BLATANTLY OBVIOUS hate for idra. Honestly, he is probably in the top 3 best SC2 players in the world and we have shoddy casters like BigT BMing him constantly and then you guys jumping the gun.
Just saying this again, iCCup TV will be casting tonight. I could care less to get dragged into this ESL / IdrA drama, but if you want to see a PROFESSIONAL cast from a group that has a long running track record of being on of the best organizations in Starcraft please tune into iCCup TV tonight.
This is all pretty crazy but iCCup TV only cares about bringing you high level professional matches with professional commentary and we will continue to do this regardless of all the drama going on otherwise.
Oh I will be raelcun, you guys are the best casters on the scene right now. I love everything Iccup does, and it is always done in a professional manner.
Don't think we forgot about your marathon stream at the end of the beta btw xD
On August 17 2010 05:53 Lighioana wrote: Care to explain the context to us? Because what I read didn't look at all to be taken out of context.
A few of us were in IRC and BigT came in wondering what the whole BiggerT thing was about. We poked a little bit of fun at him. He joined in saying things sarcastically (e.g. "I AM THE WHOLE REASON IDRA WAS BANNED!") for laughs.
Someone took the later chunk of someone giving him a hard time along with his sarcastic comments.
IdrA himself said it wasn't any fault of BigT.
I find it likely that BigT probably contributed to the situation, but he's hardly the one to jump all over for this.
On August 17 2010 05:10 LawGQ wrote: Idra got the shaft. This cup was completely unprofessional. Idra's a dick, but I would be too if the admins, casters, and organization of the cup looked like it was run by a 2 year old.
BigT really deserves to be removed as a caster from the cup all together if they are going to ban Idra.
And you would deserve to get the swift kick out.
Just because the ESL messed up doesn't justify IdrA messing up either.
And yes, BigT is a terrible caster.
Idra just returning the same amount of professionalism that was showed to him.
Half of the cup was a joke, (the other half was fine, NP gj guys), but really they just got the level they were giving.
Again, that's not proper justification. If it was, athletes and progamers would be going off left and right at perceived injustices. There's a zero tolerance policy in almost all professional events for a reason.
Officials are punished for baiting players in just about every sport I can think of.
...So? That has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion about IdrA's BM.
Or are you continuing to try and justify IdrA's BM with "two wrongs make a right"?
You could write a huge letter apologizing for the issue, but you cannot blame IdrA for what happened.
Take the responsability.
Quite the hypocritical sentences there. How can you say this and not expect IdrA to take responsibility for being BM?
Did you read the logs? There is a whole lot more to this than BM. Your "two wrongs make a right" statement is absurd. So in your opinion casters and admins should be allowed BM but not players?
On August 17 2010 05:42 Surrealz wrote: Honestly, I have no desire to watch the rest of your tournament because of the way BigT is, and your BLATANTLY OBVIOUS hate for idra. Honestly, he is probably in the top 3 best SC2 players in the world and we have shoddy casters like BigT BMing him constantly and then you guys jumping the gun.
Just saying this again, iCCup TV will be casting tonight. I could care less to get dragged into this ESL / IdrA drama, but if you want to see a PROFESSIONAL cast from a group that has a long running track record of being on of the best organizations in Starcraft please tune into iCCup TV tonight.
This is all pretty crazy but iCCup TV only cares about bringing you high level professional matches with professional commentary and we will continue to do this regardless of all the drama going on otherwise.
User was warned for this post
lol, doing this post in this circumstance proofs how wrong you are about your professionalism :D
On August 17 2010 05:51 Surrealz wrote: While I agree with you on all of those points, you did not mention anything at all about bigT calling Idra the "a move zerg" and CONSTANTLY BMing other amazing players. He is annoying people so much that Chill, a huge member of TL, decided to BM bigT with his BIggerT stream.
Most people are agreeing idra overreacted, but nothing is being done on the basis of WHY idra didn't want BigT casting. Honestly, BigT is rude. He doesn't belong in these huge tourneys, and if I was a top notch player like Idra, I wouldn't want some rank 70 diamond guy telling me I'm an A move zerg while I'm playing.
And he was lagging idra. Its a special circumstance. The guy is in Korea. He is doing so much for esports its not even funny just by being an amazing US player over there.
Let me say that that's inaccurate. You are suggesting that IdrA didn't want casters because it was BigT. The reality is that IdrA has been denying ANY caster who wants to broadcast his match while playing in National ESL. A pattern of behavior that started prior to last night.
Hey I have a question. If the 2 players and caster all agreed to not cast, will the players still be penalized? Was Idra penalized with 2 points because of the way he went about it, or simply because a caster was not present?
I still don't understand how people can be justifying what Idra said/done (if he said/done such things), by stating that : ''Well he had the right because ESL sucks and were mean with him''
To be honest, I dont even know that much about the situation (except reading this topic), and I am not taking sides here.
I am merely trying to talk about the basic concept. You cannot justify someones actions by saying that someone else has also done some wrong. Let me just take a very (very) dumbed down example, if I go to work and my boss tells me that I do not work today, while my name was clearly on the schedule (and whether or not he says he was the one that made an error on the schedule), me calling him out saying he needs to get better at organization would still not be acceptable.
People are mixing up two different issues in a single topic. As the ESL done any wrong and did they correctly stand up to say they have done some wrong is one topic, while the actions of Idra and if they should be acceptable or not (which I think should be pretty easy to answer, a player participating in an event or organization should be held responsible for his actions at all time), is a totally different one.
Also, side note, the guy stating that ''Idra is a top player so he should be allowed to say whatever he wants, while the B-class player should learn to shut up'' easily has the worse post in this whole topic. I mean, seriously, the fact that you are good should never ever make you immune to being held responsible for your wrong doing. (and if he did ask his friend to tell the ESL that they are fucking idiots, I do believe that they have every right to penalize him)
I hope ESL will be making some rules for casters, letting people like BigT run rampant and create chaos everywhere he goes kicking up a real shitstorm without even providing a good cast for you in return cant go on.
On second thought without BigT we wouldn't have BiggerT so its all good. Chill fighting~~
I imagine that in the future it will be super-standard for tourney admins to provide a list of accepted casters for their event. It's kind of a new concept and you could really put the blame on Blizzard for making these problems likely to happen - however, it is what it is.
As Huk mentioned in the other thread, popular players get tons of messages from people claiming to be casters. People will try to say what the player wants to hear to get into the game, and at some point the player will just filter everyone out. Just make some clear rules and a short list of official casters. Of course others will still be able to cast, but only if the players agree.
On August 17 2010 05:10 LawGQ wrote: Idra got the shaft. This cup was completely unprofessional. Idra's a dick, but I would be too if the admins, casters, and organization of the cup looked like it was run by a 2 year old.
BigT really deserves to be removed as a caster from the cup all together if they are going to ban Idra.
And you would deserve to get the swift kick out.
Just because the ESL messed up doesn't justify IdrA messing up either.
And yes, BigT is a terrible caster.
Idra just returning the same amount of professionalism that was showed to him.
Half of the cup was a joke, (the other half was fine, NP gj guys), but really they just got the level they were giving.
Again, that's not proper justification. If it was, athletes and progamers would be going off left and right at perceived injustices. There's a zero tolerance policy in almost all professional events for a reason.
Officials are punished for baiting players in just about every sport I can think of.
...So? That has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion about IdrA's BM.
Or are you continuing to try and justify IdrA's BM with "two wrongs make a right"?
You could write a huge letter apologizing for the issue, but you cannot blame IdrA for what happened.
Take the responsability.
Quite the hypocritical sentences there. How can you say this and not expect IdrA to take responsibility for being BM?
Did you read the logs? There is a whole lot more to this than BM. Your "two wrongs make a right" statement is absurd. So in your opinion casters and admins should be allowed BM but not players?
Absolutely not. Not only did I not say that anywhere, but you assuming that continues to indirectly try to justify IdrA's BM with another's BM.
The end point is that they should ALL be punished. It doesn't matter what happened, there is no justification for insulting the people who are actually putting in all the work to make the tournament happen. Of course, there's no justification for terrible casters/admins/etc... I've repeatedly been addressing the fact that people keep trying to deflect the issue of IdrA being unprofessional by just saying that others were as well. So what? That doesn't have one fucking ounce of influence on IdrA's mistake. I've been solely talking about IdrA's BM and the fact that punishment is 100% deserved. We all know that the casters and admins were bad and deserve punishment, there hasn't been any controversy over that. What I've been referring to is IdrA because apparently some people think it's ok to justify his bad actions with others' bad actions.
On August 17 2010 05:53 Hapahauli wrote: What exactly have you answered? All you have admitted to is "confusion" and "drama," when there's plenty of evidence that ESL staff botched the current situation pretty badly.
Most of us are looking for you to acknowledge the mistakes of your subordinates and casters, instead of dismissing it as mutual "confusion."
What more do you want me to say? We made mistakes and we are doing our best to resolve them in the most proper way we can. I do think its unreasonable to put the entire burden of last night on National ESL's Admin staff. We are trying to help casters to cast matches so the fans can watch the games. Is that our responsibility, "no". But it does make the experience for all more enjoyable.
As for the issues with the players reporting matches incorrectly and IdrA's travel, what more do you expect from any organization? There's always issues and drama, heck we are all human and love drama. But I'm confident in my staff and National ESL that we have done the best we can to correct and fix issues to limit their chances of recurring and new problems to arise.
ESL showing, yet again, that they are run by an unprofessional crew.
they want a big name, but do not have the admins to back it up.
I seem to recall other people being owed money by ESL besides the little $50 sums owed to a few players mentioned in this thread.
I, for one, will not be supporting the ESL. They have proven to be unprofessional...and there are plenty of much better "leagues" etc. around and cropping up =]
Stop comparing this situation to the NBA or the NFL. This is neither. Account for your admin's actions.
On August 17 2010 05:53 Hapahauli wrote: What exactly have you answered? All you have admitted to is "confusion" and "drama," when there's plenty of evidence that ESL staff botched the current situation pretty badly.
Most of us are looking for you to acknowledge the mistakes of your subordinates and casters, instead of dismissing it as mutual "confusion."
What more do you want me to say? We made mistakes and we are doing our best to resolve them in the most proper way we can. I do think its unreasonable to put the entire burden of last night on National ESL's Admin staff. We are trying to help casters to cast matches so the fans can watch the games. Is that our responsibility, "no". But it does make the experience for all more enjoyable.
As for the issues with the players reporting matches incorrectly and IdrA's travel, what more do you expect from any organization? There's always issues and drama, heck we are all human and love drama. But I'm confident in my staff and National ESL that we have done the best we can to correct and fix issues to limit their chances of recurring and new problems to arise.
well this post goes a long way i can only speak for myself but the bolded part here is something along the lines of what i was hoping for originally. not for me, of course. for you. it looks much more professional to directly admit faults than to try to act like they didn't happen.
On August 17 2010 05:26 Hapahauli wrote: I came in here expecting some resolution, transparency or accountability... silly me.
What exactly does this post even resolve? It refuses to acknowledge that CertainESLStaffMembers jumped the gun and banned IdrA last night. It took the the entire night for them to resolve this issue.
This post doest even acknowledge the appallingly short notice IdrA received for his rematch, or official "casters" who BM'd one of the players and got him banned when said player refused to let him cast.
Pitiful.
This about sums up how well that event was run.
Seriously, though -- get a different caster that isn't BigT. His complete lack of professionalism and poor quality of commentating have been at least as bad as the things Idra did.
I feel like every issue here could have been solved by casting replays instead of actual games. The first issue, when he submits his win, ask for replays? Since he thinks that his opponent didn't show up, he wouldn't have replays and you could have checked on the situation. The second issue, Idra complains about lag, you could have just casted the replays. No one want to see lag. You keep saying that the match has to be streamed because it's good for the audience but I for one don't want to see lag.
What's wrong with casting replays? As long as the results don't get out beforehand, I'm sure no one minds. I liked how the Day[9] and Tasteless showmatch was done with replays and then they interviewed the two after.
Also come on, pay the dude. I think there's a zero tolerance for any kind of mistreatment from a organization that owes you money.
While I agree with you on all of those points, you did not mention anything at all about bigT calling Idra the "a move zerg" and CONSTANTLY BMing other amazing players. He is annoying people so much that Chill, a huge member of TL, decided to BM bigT with his BIggerT stream.
ESL needs to admit they jumped the gun and screwed up last night. They did not manage their casters and admins properly and they let a situation that could have been quickly resolved get out of hand much too quickly. You can't come out and say a player is banned, change your mind, and hand out penalty points and pretend that the former never happened.
When a famous player like Idra deliberatly breaks the rules, refuses to allow a caster into his games and insult the staff. The propper actions must be taken, and I feel this is where the administative staff of this tournament has failed.
This is really an administrative (ESL) problem. They chose the "official" casters and they have to bare the responsability for the actions the casters takes. I'm not trying to defend BigT for his alleged actions, I am just saying that I feel we should not place the majority of the blame on him, or on Idra for his alleged actions as well, I feel everyone in this mess is responsible in some way. But at the end of the line, the people who are hosting the tournament (ESL) are the ones who should be accepting responsability for the problems which arise in their tournament(s) and any controversy needs to be cleared up by them.
On August 17 2010 06:05 InfiniteIce wrote: Stop comparing this situation to the NBA or the NFL. .
And then you have everyone jumping around saying that they want sc2 to become as professionnal as possible and to develop into one of the biggest e-sport.
(Note the bolded part)
Sure this particular sport that is starcraft is played on the computer, but if you really want it to develop as an e-sports, then I really fail to see why the general rules that are common to every sports should not apply to it.
While I agree with you on all of those points, you did not mention anything at all about bigT calling Idra the "a move zerg" and CONSTANTLY BMing other amazing players. He is annoying people so much that Chill, a huge member of TL, decided to BM bigT with his BIggerT stream.
ESL needs to admit they jumped the gun and screwed up last night. They did not manage their casters and admins properly and they let a situation that could have been quickly resolved get out of hand much too quickly. You can't come out and say a player is banned, change your mind, and hand out penalty points and pretend that the former never happened.
When a famous player like Idra deliberatly breaks the rules, refuses to allow a caster into his games and insult the staff. The propper actions must be taken, and I feel this is where the administative staff of this tournament has failed.
This is really an administrative (ESL) problem. They chose the "official" casters and they have to bare the responsability for the actions the casters takes. I'm not trying to defend BigT for his alleged actions, I am just saying that I feel we should not place the majority of the blame on him, on Idra for his alleged actions as well. Altho I feel everyone in this mess is responsible in some way. But at the end of the line, the people who are hosting the tournament (ESL) are the ones who we should be accepting responsability for the problems which arise in their tournament(s) and any controversy needs to be cleared up by them.
On August 17 2010 06:02 midway wrote: What more do you want me to say? We made mistakes and we are doing our best to resolve them in the most proper way we can. I do think its unreasonable to put the entire burden of last night on National ESL's Admin staff. We are trying to help casters to cast matches so the fans can watch the games. Is that our responsibility, "no". But it does make the experience for all more enjoyable.
I don't get it, why isn't anybody talking about strifecro and the admins? It seems to me like strifecro got a walkover he didn't deserve, and that kind of messed up a lot of the tourney. They really don't explain it in detail, I'd like to know what exactly Idra said.
On August 17 2010 06:09 ShaperofDreams wrote: so pretty much you guys fucked up.
what does this have to do with idra?
I'm kind of with this guy, I don't get how Idra was really involved, other than the fact that he got pissed after all of the drama, as would most players.
Honestly, ESL just doesn't like Idra. Their staff, does not like idra. They are here to make money, they are not here to help us. They will give us a "quality event", as long as they make money. They see Idra as a liability and do not like him, and are BMing him nonstop.
Fortunately there are members of the community such as myself that recognize how brutally awesome idra is at starcraft. ESL is not what is going to make this esport rise, its going to be the players. ESL, you are not gracing Idra by letting him play. If you kick him out or stop him from playing, he will just go win another tournament.
ESL has been like this forever. In CS it was no different. There have been problems like this FOREVER with them. Their staff is really BM.
On August 17 2010 06:08 OreoBoi wrote: I feel like every issue here could have been solved by casting replays instead of actual games. The first issue, when he submits his win, ask for replays? Since he thinks that his opponent didn't show up, he wouldn't have replays and you could have checked on the situation. The second issue, Idra complains about lag, you could have just casted the replays. No one want to see lag. You keep saying that the match has to be streamed because it's good for the audience but I for one don't want to see lag.
What's wrong with casting replays? As long as the results don't get out beforehand, I'm sure no one minds. I liked how the Day[9] and Tasteless showmatch was done with replays and then they interviewed the two after.
Also come on, pay the dude. I think there's a zero tolerance for any kind of mistreatment from a organization that owes you money.
This is true, couldn't the replays simply be casted instead of the live matches? Seems like that would save the hassle, in this situation at least it would have. No lag and still having the game available for viewing, if not right now in the near future.
On August 17 2010 06:02 midway wrote: I do think its unreasonable to put the entire burden of last night on National ESL's Admin staff.
... seriously?
Like if the ESL had been monitoring the matches and caught the StrikeCro/Jobless debocale before IdrA had already finished playing?
Or wait, maybe if an ESL representative told IdrA that BigT would be casting his games live?
IdrA got angry because YOU fucked up. Anyone would have gotten angry in his situation. And then you made it worse throughout the night.
IdrA isn't completely without blame, because he did break your rules in certain ways, but 99% of the problems last night were because of your guy's actions.
I don't understand how people can say the admins or casters behavior should be a separate issue from how Idra's behavior and penalty. Ever heard of mitigating circumstances?
So there's still no evidence of Idra harassing the staff (not saying he didn't) other than a log of a private conversation between him and someone not related to ESL where he said "fuck the admins" after finding out he had to replay an earlier match because of a mishap?
I agree with Nazgul's post about harassment but I don't see a private conversation between two people as harassment.
On August 17 2010 05:56 Voyager I wrote: I don't think BigT means to be offensive; he just doesn't realize when he is. His attempted humor certainly didn't do anything to help the situation, but that's equal parts IdrA being a bitch.
As for IdrA...if he wants to be respected as a professional, he's going to have to learn to act like one sooner or later. That means respecting your opponents and associated organizations and even putting up with other people's bullshit without calling anyone names. I honestly give credit to any organization willing to pull the cord on him if he insists on acting like a dick.
This isn't to say that BigT shouldn't be talked to about his own conduct.
I don't think BigT is intentionally trying to bm when he called Idra the "1a Zerg", its probably because he doesn't know what he is talking about.(dont get me wrong though, he is still bm to others, but talknig about that one situation).
Also, I'd like to reference firebathero from the SC1 proscene. His "BM" ceremonies can be compared to IdrA's "BM". Both can be well justified, both are expressing their feelings to the situation in their own way.
I don't see why we 'have' to have the one player (Idra) who has more potential connection/lag issues have casters join his game at early stages of a tournament. There are plenty of other players but following one where it could be detrimental to the outcome of the game isn't the wisest choice.
So many other players who would surely enjoy being casted and we could do with seeing more variety of players.
I'm not defending abusing a ref or going against the rules but if a player doesn't want to be casted and there are 100 other games going on why arrogantly force the player to be casted in such an early stage when they have made there preference clear? Quarters onwards they shouldn't refuse for the fans but 1st,2nd rounds and such just give some ppl a break.
On August 17 2010 06:12 Surrealz wrote: Honestly, ESL just doesn't like Idra. Their staff, does not like idra. They are here to make money, they are not here to help us. They will give us a "quality event", as long as they make money.
Blizzard wants to give us a quality game as long as they make money. It's a business, it's how businesses work.
On August 17 2010 06:12 Surrealz wrote: Honestly, ESL just doesn't like Idra. Their staff, does not like idra. They are here to make money, they are not here to help us. They will give us a "quality event", as long as they make money. They see Idra as a liability and do not like him, and are BMing him nonstop.
Fortunately there are members of the community such as myself that recognize how brutally awesome idra is at starcraft. ESL is not what is going to make this esport rise, its going to be the players. ESL, you are not gracing Idra by letting him play. If you kick him out or stop him from playing, he will just go win another tournament.
ESL has been like this forever. In CS it was no different. There have been problems like this FOREVER with them. Their staff is really BM.
Worse rant ever.
''I love Idra so if something happens to him its probably because they dont love him''
Idra could have decided not to play in the tournament.
On August 17 2010 05:53 Hapahauli wrote: What exactly have you answered? All you have admitted to is "confusion" and "drama," when there's plenty of evidence that ESL staff botched the current situation pretty badly.
Most of us are looking for you to acknowledge the mistakes of your subordinates and casters, instead of dismissing it as mutual "confusion."
What more do you want me to say? We made mistakes and we are doing our best to resolve them in the most proper way we can. I do think its unreasonable to put the entire burden of last night on National ESL's Admin staff. We are trying to help casters to cast matches so the fans can watch the games. Is that our responsibility, "no". But it does make the experience for all more enjoyable.
As for the issues with the players reporting matches incorrectly and IdrA's travel, what more do you expect from any organization? There's always issues and drama, heck we are all human and love drama. But I'm confident in my staff and National ESL that we have done the best we can to correct and fix issues to limit their chances of recurring and new problems to arise.
What more do we expect?
Professionalism, Transparency, and Responsibility.
Pointing the finger at IdrA is classic pointing out the splinter in his eye while ignoring the plank in yours. Jesus would be ashamed.
On August 17 2010 06:09 Argolis wrote: ESL needs to admit they jumped the gun and screwed up last night. They did not manage their casters and admins properly and they let a situation that could have been quickly resolved get out of hand much too quickly. You can't come out and say a player is banned, change your mind, and hand out penalty points and pretend that the former never happened.
When a famous player like Idra deliberatly breaks the rules, refuses to allow a caster into his games and insult the staff. The propper actions must be taken, and I feel this is where the administative staff of this tournament has failed.
This is really an administrative (ESL) problem. They chose the "official" casters and they have to bare the responsability for the actions the casters takes. I'm not trying to defend BigT for his alleged actions, I am just saying that I feel we should not place the majority of the blame on him, on Idra for his alleged actions as well. Altho I feel everyone in this mess is responsible in some way. But at the end of the line, the people who are hosting the tournament (ESL) are the ones who we should be accepting responsability for the problems which arise in their tournament(s) and any controversy needs to be cleared up by them.
IdrA was punished correctly. He was given PP for not allowing casters. Later a separate issue happened that had nothing to do with IdrA besides the fact that he was playing on the same side of the bracket.
As for the caster, we allow casters to cast our league matches. We aren't telling them what to broadcast or hiring them. They are community members just like you and I. The only reason we even "allow" casters is so that there actually is casters. Players don't allow people to watch if it wasn't for ESL saying certain casters can join the game. We are doing our best to find the right casters and make sure they are allowed in the games but as with everything this is a new process and we are working our best to make this better for everyone involved. Obviously Day9 isn't available to do every match ever played in SC2.
On August 17 2010 06:02 midway wrote: I do think its unreasonable to put the entire burden of last night on National ESL's Admin staff. We are trying to help casters to cast matches so the fans can watch the games. Is that our responsibility, "no". But it does make the experience for all more enjoyable.
I think that is one of the problems that needs to be addressed within the ESL. As soon as you place casters in your rules (allowing players to gain "penalty points" for denying them) it becomes your responsibility. There is a huge issue with players lagging because of either lagging casters or an overabundance of casters in a single match. There needs to be a limit on how many casters can cast a certain game and a set of steps to be taken when a game starts lagging because of the casters. Ultimately the games need to be played without lag so that the players can perform at their top level. If that means that all casters need to be removed and instead having VODs created from replays so be it.
Ok we now have the case where a player got punished for being bad mannered to admins and staff. Now it's time to make a case about streamers who flame about players and are generally unproffessional. Next case: How are the admins punished?
midway i do like that you don't seem to be upset in the face of this. please don't come out with too poor of an opinion of TL despite how opinionated we are. I am sure that as long as everyone is striving to do their best you will end up with a large and faithful following here in the end.
On August 17 2010 05:53 Hapahauli wrote: What exactly have you answered? All you have admitted to is "confusion" and "drama," when there's plenty of evidence that ESL staff botched the current situation pretty badly.
Most of us are looking for you to acknowledge the mistakes of your subordinates and casters, instead of dismissing it as mutual "confusion."
What more do you want me to say? We made mistakes and we are doing our best to resolve them in the most proper way we can. I do think its unreasonable to put the entire burden of last night on National ESL's Admin staff. We are trying to help casters to cast matches so the fans can watch the games. Is that our responsibility, "no". But it does make the experience for all more enjoyable.
As for the issues with the players reporting matches incorrectly and IdrA's travel, what more do you expect from any organization? There's always issues and drama, heck we are all human and love drama. But I'm confident in my staff and National ESL that we have done the best we can to correct and fix issues to limit their chances of recurring and new problems to arise.
What more do we expect?
Professionalism, Transparency, and Responsibility.
Pointing the finger at IdrA is classic pointing out the splinter in his eye while ignoring the plank in yours. Jesus would be ashamed.
I love and fully echo the sentiments of this post.
I am all for answering the question "what more do you expect?"
But since the originally quoted post asks "what more do you want me to say?" I shall answer this for that poster as well: "Here are the facts, chat logs, and circumstances mitigating the situations. We take responsibility for our fuck ups, and our fuck ups alone, which were the following: _____. We will work to make sure this does not happen again in the future by doing _____."
Nothing more. I don't personally want to hear anything besides that, especially not bullshit or fluff, i.e. "heck we are all human and love drama."
What a drama. Jobless must be a really nice guy to agree to a rematch cause his opponent was a no show or maybe ESL over ride that, I'm not really clear without the facts? Most players would just force you to forfeit and move on. Anyhow that seemed to really peeve idra it seems amongst other things after playing his matches. I know I'd be kinda pissed off if I were put in that situation but I wouldn't make the situation worse by acting like an ass to the staff or players. I'd just play my matches and not bother with National ESL next time they have an event. Seems like he couldn't make the final anyway today since he is scheduled for another event.
I also love how ESL is saying that Idra constantly gives them problems, meanwhile Idra is in Korea playing starcraft professionally, and has been in more tournaments over the years than i can count
So you are telling me that Day9 is lying and idra is a wretched person? Apparently Idra is doing this to every tournament hes ever been in? Nope, has hasn't. You are doing a terrible job with your tourney. Idra has been in tons and tons of starcraft tournaments, and we don't hear about this except when YOU SCREW UP.
Take the points back from Idra and apologize to him. It was a private channel. You are losing credibility fast.
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote: IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
This, ESL needs more transparency in this situation they need to tell us what exactly he said or else it seems like they're still trying to cover their asses. They state players AND admins but I never saw him insult a player in this tournament... it seems like Chill is right here.
Hm, he called the admins "fucking idiots". (Two posts further down he confirms that the quotes are accurate.) So it wasn't after being disqualified, but after being asked to replay two games, so also not unprovoked. Plus at that point he was already annoyed because of the BigT story and probably because of latency. Oh yeah, and in the first game after he let BigT in, he brought up the unpaid bills thing in ingame chat, which was clearly a diss.
(Please don't read this as hating/flaming IdrA; I'm not.)
he called them fucking idiots outside of the game. pretty sure you're allowed to say whatever you want outside of the game.
I dont get why people seem to like IdrA. There have been so many threads where he has been brought up and the same people just come defending him. I just cant see why anyone would ever side with him, given his record.
You'd think that people would know that he can get pretty furious over nothing, and that he constantly insults other players just for doing a certain build or playing a certain race in a video game.
It's not a coincidence that IdrA always gets into "trouble" with people. Why was it IdrA this time, and not one of the other 375 players? Probably has something to do with him having some kind of problem with his temper.
On August 17 2010 06:09 Argolis wrote: ESL needs to admit they jumped the gun and screwed up last night. They did not manage their casters and admins properly and they let a situation that could have been quickly resolved get out of hand much too quickly. You can't come out and say a player is banned, change your mind, and hand out penalty points and pretend that the former never happened.
When a famous player like Idra deliberatly breaks the rules, refuses to allow a caster into his games and insult the staff. The propper actions must be taken, and I feel this is where the administative staff of this tournament has failed.
This is really an administrative (ESL) problem. They chose the "official" casters and they have to bare the responsability for the actions the casters takes. I'm not trying to defend BigT for his alleged actions, I am just saying that I feel we should not place the majority of the blame on him, on Idra for his alleged actions as well. Altho I feel everyone in this mess is responsible in some way. But at the end of the line, the people who are hosting the tournament (ESL) are the ones who we should be accepting responsability for the problems which arise in their tournament(s) and any controversy needs to be cleared up by them.
IdrA was punished correctly. He was given PP for not allowing casters. Later a separate issue happened that had nothing to do with IdrA besides the fact that he was playing on the same side of the bracket.
No, it wasn't "seen" that way, it's explicitly what was said.
There was confusion among everyone involved, including some admins. IdrA's trip to Gamescom confused the situation further.
If you fuck up, say that you fucked up. Man up. I edited my posts to show some quotes explicitly saying that they were banning Idra. There is no confusion about what was said.
I am glad you guys went back on the decision but don't try to cover up what happened with lies.
Hell, if an admin or 2 were idiots and messed up... just say that. Say what actually happened. Just don't try to lie to minimize it.
Seriously I love the ESL, I love anyone who contributes to e-sports. But Integrity... please
If you want to support things like Integrity on something like reversing a ban on a player that deserved it in the first place, how about supporting things like sportsmanship?
Why was Idra even allowed to participate in ESL after what happened the first time around? This happens every time Idra competes in an event. Idra treats ESL like its a joke, the joke should be on him when he doesn't get to participate in prize tournaments and is banned from play. His sponsors should honestly pull out from backing his extremely poor attitude. Its one thing to earn your respect for your skill, its another to use that respect to think that you can say and do whatever the fuck you want to whomever the fuck you want.
Being a nerd is no excuse for lack of respect or being socially inept. Learn the basics of being a REASONABLE human being should come before being a monkey that knows how to play professional RTS.
Seriously, I love watching skill in action, I love quality replays that have tons of entertainment. But a little class... please
On August 17 2010 06:23 Deadlyfish wrote: I dont get why people seem to like IdrA. There have been so many threads where he has been brought up and the same people just come defending him. I just cant see why anyone would ever side with him, given his record.
You'd think that people would know that he can get pretty furious over nothing, and that he constantly insults other players just for doing a certain build or playing a certain race in a video game.
It's not a coincidence that IdrA always gets into "trouble" with people. Why was it IdrA this time, and not one of the other 375 players? Probably has something to do with him having some kind of problem with his temper.
Some of us care more about watching great Starcraft than whether a player insults an admin or his opponent, or says a ritual "gg" after every game. If ESL is this close to banning a great player because he told someone the admins were idiots, then I have a problem with ESL, not IdrA. (The casting issue I find more compelling.)
I'd also like to throw out there, I didn't see it come up. IdrA has been denying casters since the first qualifier cup. lol why is it just recently when IdrA doing well he gets the PP and not in the first 2 qualifier cups? (and the BM anyone remember the silver game? no PP there? lol) I just find it kind of funny.
Just a different question that I don't think someone has brought up.
On August 17 2010 06:13 CaptnIgnit wrote: ... seriously?
Like if the ESL had been monitoring the matches and caught the StrikeCro/Jobless debocale before IdrA had already finished playing?
Or wait, maybe if an ESL representative told IdrA that BigT would be casting his games live?
IdrA got angry because YOU fucked up. Anyone would have gotten angry in his situation. And then you made it worse throughout the night.
IdrA isn't completely without blame, because he did break your rules in certain ways, but 99% of the problems last night were because of your guy's actions.
We are monitoring the matches, the issue just wasn't brought to our attention properly until those previous two matches were played. It's easy to say that, but unless your running the event and watching how fast people are playing matches its easy for two rounds of an event to happen before a mistake can be totally investigated. Players are setting up, starting and finishing matches often times before previous issues can be resolved or even discussed. So while I wish there was a better way of resolving tickets in a faster time frame there's really no way to interrupt a player while he's already playing his match.
Actually our admin staff contacted IdrA before his second and third round matches. That's why he got PP. Still I don't think this should be an issue for National ESL staff. Players should WANT their matches casted. If I was IdrA I would want to build up my audience and get more people interested in me. But what do I know, I just ran the largest eSports website from 2002-2006.
As for the IdrA issue, only one angry here is you. We did our best to resolve the issue and deal with it. IdrA's travel considerations obviously created a more difficult situation.
No, it wasn't "seen" that way, it's explicitly what was said.
There was confusion among everyone involved, including some admins. IdrA's trip to Gamescom confused the situation further.
If you fuck up, say that you fucked up. Man up. I edited my posts to show some quotes explicitly saying that they were banning Idra. There is no confusion about what was said.
I am glad you guys went back on the decision but don't try to cover up what happened with lies.
Hell, if an admin or 2 were idiots and messed up... just say that. Say what actually happened. Just don't try to lie to minimize it.
Seriously I love the ESL, I love anyone who contributes to e-sports. But Integrity... please
If you want to support things like Integrity on something like reversing a ban on a player that deserved it in the first place, how about supporting things like sportsmanship?
Why was Idra even allowed to participate in ESL after what happened the first time around? This happens every time Idra competes in an event. Idra treats ESL like its a joke, the joke should be on him when he doesn't get to participate in prize tournaments and is banned from play. His sponsors should honestly pull out from backing his extremely poor attitude. Its one thing to earn your respect for your skill, its another to use that respect to think that you can say and do whatever the fuck you want to whomever the fuck you want.
Being a nerd is no excuse for lack of respect or being socially inept. Learn the basics of being a REASONABLE human being should come before being a monkey that knows how to play professional RTS.
Seriously, I love watching skill in action, I love quality replays that have tons of entertainment. But a little class... please
I agree. If he breaks the rules he breaks the rules. What in particular are you talking about here? I sure as hell know what I am talking about, but I don't know what you are talking about nor how it's supposed to be any sort of direct reply to what I posted, as they seem to be two different topics altogether.
On August 17 2010 04:44 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: If they do not state clearly which comments warranted the additional points it will still seem as if they're just trying to cover their asses from the initial comments posted by their admins which travis quoted in the last page.
Post this on the other thread related to the same issue....
On August 17 2010 04:45 koshka wrote: [...flaming huh? right.... just tell us please if you don't do it THAT is creating a bigger issue of the situation because you don't look very good if you are not telling the whole story. just seems a bit shady
Honestly you can think its shady or not, but I'd rather have you yelling at us to be "transparent" then creating flame wars between pro and anti-IdrA fans over what is said. The reality is that just like any sport when a person acts out of line they are dealt with in manner related to their behavior.
The NBA doesn't tell the press what a player said in a basketball game when he gets a Technical Foul. When a player gets a yellow or red card in FIFA they don't even tell you what it was for. We are being transparent but also keeping privacy for the obvious necessary reasons.
please link us to the rule that states we are not allowed to trash talk.
On August 17 2010 06:13 CaptnIgnit wrote: ... seriously?
Like if the ESL had been monitoring the matches and caught the StrikeCro/Jobless debocale before IdrA had already finished playing?
Or wait, maybe if an ESL representative told IdrA that BigT would be casting his games live?
IdrA got angry because YOU fucked up. Anyone would have gotten angry in his situation. And then you made it worse throughout the night.
IdrA isn't completely without blame, because he did break your rules in certain ways, but 99% of the problems last night were because of your guy's actions.
We are monitoring the matches, the issue just wasn't brought to our attention properly until those previous two matches were played. It's easy to say that, but unless your running the event and watching how fast people are playing matches its easy for two rounds of an event to happen before a mistake can be totally investigated. Players are setting up, starting and finishing matches often times before previous issues can be resolved or even discussed. So while I wish there was a better way of resolving tickets in a faster time frame there's really no way to interrupt a player while he's already playing his match.
Actually our admin staff contacted IdrA before his second and third round matches. That's why he got PP. Still I don't think this should be an issue for National ESL staff. Players should WANT their matches casted. If I was IdrA I would want to build up my audience and get more people interested in me. But what do I know, I just ran the largest eSports website from 2002-2006.
As for the IdrA issue, only one angry here is you. We did our best to resolve the issue and deal with it. IdrA's travel considerations obviously created a more difficult situation.
Bold part: I can see why IdrA would rage at admins if they all acted as pompous and elitist as you, Midway.
Running a website, being a progamer. Not the same thing. So as to your question...what do you know? Nothing, apparently. Running a website for exposure and an audience is not the same as being a high-level professional gamer.
Also, as for the IdrA issue, "only one angry" is not the guy you quoted. Do you not see the 11 pages of replies..?
On August 17 2010 06:13 CaptnIgnit wrote: ... seriously?
Like if the ESL had been monitoring the matches and caught the StrikeCro/Jobless debocale before IdrA had already finished playing?
Or wait, maybe if an ESL representative told IdrA that BigT would be casting his games live?
IdrA got angry because YOU fucked up. Anyone would have gotten angry in his situation. And then you made it worse throughout the night.
IdrA isn't completely without blame, because he did break your rules in certain ways, but 99% of the problems last night were because of your guy's actions.
We are monitoring the matches, the issue just wasn't brought to our attention properly until those previous two matches were played. It's easy to say that, but unless your running the event and watching how fast people are playing matches its easy for two rounds of an event to happen before a mistake can be totally investigated. Players are setting up, starting and finishing matches often times before previous issues can be resolved or even discussed. So while I wish there was a better way of resolving tickets in a faster time frame there's really no way to interrupt a player while he's already playing his match.
Actually our admin staff contacted IdrA before his second and third round matches. That's why he got PP. Still I don't think this should be an issue for National ESL staff. Players should WANT their matches casted. If I was IdrA I would want to build up my audience and get more people interested in me. But what do I know, I just ran the largest eSports website from 2002-2006.
As for the IdrA issue, only one angry here is you. We did our best to resolve the issue and deal with it. IdrA's travel considerations obviously created a more difficult situation.
No one is going to be interested in him if he loses games due to lag just for the sake of having the likes of BigT casting it.
And again, ESL is not the greatest thing ever. Your staff is rude, and this is not the first I have heard or experienced this before. ESL is not god's gift to esports. You aren't the old CPL.
On August 17 2010 06:23 Deadlyfish wrote: I dont get why people seem to like IdrA. There have been so many threads where he has been brought up and the same people just come defending him. I just cant see why anyone would ever side with him, given his record.
You'd think that people would know that he can get pretty furious over nothing, and that he constantly insults other players just for doing a certain build or playing a certain race in a video game.
It's not a coincidence that IdrA always gets into "trouble" with people. Why was it IdrA this time, and not one of the other 375 players? Probably has something to do with him having some kind of problem with his temper.
Some of us care more about watching great Starcraft than whether a player insults an admin or his opponent, or says a ritual "gg" after every game. If ESL is this close to banning a great player because he told someone the admins were idiots, then I have a problem with ESL, not IdrA. (The casting issue I find more compelling.)
This is definately a way you can see the whole issue, but is this the good way to promote sc2 ? I leave the question to you. (aka, my personal benefit of watching good games vs the benefit of the whole sport growing)
On August 17 2010 04:44 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: If they do not state clearly which comments warranted the additional points it will still seem as if they're just trying to cover their asses from the initial comments posted by their admins which travis quoted in the last page.
Post this on the other thread related to the same issue....
On August 17 2010 04:45 koshka wrote: [...flaming huh? right.... just tell us please if you don't do it THAT is creating a bigger issue of the situation because you don't look very good if you are not telling the whole story. just seems a bit shady
Honestly you can think its shady or not, but I'd rather have you yelling at us to be "transparent" then creating flame wars between pro and anti-IdrA fans over what is said. The reality is that just like any sport when a person acts out of line they are dealt with in manner related to their behavior.
The NBA doesn't tell the press what a player said in a basketball game when he gets a Technical Foul. When a player gets a yellow or red card in FIFA they don't even tell you what it was for. We are being transparent but also keeping privacy for the obvious necessary reasons.
please link us to the rule that states we are not allowed to trash talk.
On August 17 2010 05:44 Surrealz wrote: Please, just remove BigT from the web, and clean Idra's record. Idra is doing more for SC2 than 99.9999999% of this population, including the casters.
If anything, IdrA's BM is hurting e-sports' attempts at becoming respected. Having the best westerner in the world act like this isn't good for the scene.
I don't like BigT's style of stream either, but I still think his "service", if you can honestly call it that, is doing much more than Idra's "get paid to play good and """"""entertain"""""" with poor manners"
(Notice I had to quote entertain, because his poor attitude is anything but entertaining and is in fact doing us all a disfavor by making us all look like a bunch of nerd-rage kids who don't deserve to get paid to actually entertain?) <-- and yes despite the fact that you guys all probably knew what I was talking about, it was just something that HAD to be pointed out because of how bad this really is.
I'll be the first to say Idra is a great RTS player. I'll also be the first to say that he is a horrible human being.
Some of you really need to let it go. The issue is solved, there were mistakes, they were admited to, the situation is resolved. All parties will be more wary in the future. I dont really think theres much more room left for disscussion.
ok so the professional players aren't allowed to trash talk crappy admins, but its PERFECTLY FINE for crappy casters to trash talk professional players.
So back to my question that was never answered from a prior post. Was it jobless that decided to rematch or was esl admins decision? Also why not be more strict about the no show rule in the future to avoid drama like this?
On August 17 2010 06:13 CaptnIgnit wrote: ... seriously?
Like if the ESL had been monitoring the matches and caught the StrikeCro/Jobless debocale before IdrA had already finished playing?
Or wait, maybe if an ESL representative told IdrA that BigT would be casting his games live?
IdrA got angry because YOU fucked up. Anyone would have gotten angry in his situation. And then you made it worse throughout the night.
IdrA isn't completely without blame, because he did break your rules in certain ways, but 99% of the problems last night were because of your guy's actions.
We are monitoring the matches, the issue just wasn't brought to our attention properly until those previous two matches were played. It's easy to say that, but unless your running the event and watching how fast people are playing matches its easy for two rounds of an event to happen before a mistake can be totally investigated. Players are setting up, starting and finishing matches often times before previous issues can be resolved or even discussed. So while I wish there was a better way of resolving tickets in a faster time frame there's really no way to interrupt a player while he's already playing his match.
Actually our admin staff contacted IdrA before his second and third round matches. That's why he got PP. Still I don't think this should be an issue for National ESL staff. Players should WANT their matches casted. If I was IdrA I would want to build up my audience and get more people interested in me. But what do I know, I just ran the largest eSports website from 2002-2006.
As for the IdrA issue, only one angry here is you. We did our best to resolve the issue and deal with it. IdrA's travel considerations obviously created a more difficult situation.
Wow. Arrogance. Instead of trying to find way to improve the system, you just give up and say "it's not easy"? It's not supposed to be easy.. lol.
On August 17 2010 06:20 Surrealz wrote: I also love how ESL is saying that Idra constantly gives them problems, meanwhile Idra is in Korea playing starcraft professionally, and has been in more tournaments over the years than i can count
So you are telling me that Day9 is lying and idra is a wretched person? Apparently Idra is doing this to every tournament hes ever been in? Nope, has hasn't. You are doing a terrible job with your tourney. Idra has been in tons and tons of starcraft tournaments, and we don't hear about this except when YOU SCREW UP.
Take the points back from Idra and apologize to him. It was a private channel. You are losing credibility fast.
We at National ESL aren't blaming IdrA for anything that he wasn't given PP for. If he allowed the casters into the match there would have been no PP. I have no problem with IdrA.
Honestly we have gone out of our way to work with IdrA. We even consider rescheduling tonight's matches to allow IdrA to play and win $100. This isn't something personal against IdrA. The community has a lot of focus on him because of his name. The biggest issue last night was the replay of matches and incorrect result. This was an issue that National ESL resolved as soon as we were made aware of it.
Much of the rest of the problems resulted from IdrA's travel schedule today.
On August 17 2010 06:33 Surrealz wrote: ok so the professional players aren't allowed to trash talk crappy admins, but its PERFECTLY FINE for crappy casters to trash talk professional players.
yup sounds about right.
Who even said that ? I think it was pretty obvious from this thread that none of them were acceptable.
On August 17 2010 06:20 Surrealz wrote: I also love how ESL is saying that Idra constantly gives them problems, meanwhile Idra is in Korea playing starcraft professionally, and has been in more tournaments over the years than i can count
So you are telling me that Day9 is lying and idra is a wretched person? Apparently Idra is doing this to every tournament hes ever been in? Nope, has hasn't. You are doing a terrible job with your tourney. Idra has been in tons and tons of starcraft tournaments, and we don't hear about this except when YOU SCREW UP.
Take the points back from Idra and apologize to him. It was a private channel. You are losing credibility fast.
We at National ESL aren't blaming IdrA for anything that he wasn't given PP for. If he allowed the casters into the match there would have been no PP. I have no problem with IdrA.
Honestly we have gone out of our way to work with IdrA. We even consider rescheduling tonight's matches to allow IdrA to play and win $100. This isn't something personal against IdrA. The community has a lot of focus on him because of his name. The biggest issue last night was the replay of matches and incorrect result. This was an issue that National ESL resolved as soon as we were made aware of it.
Much of the rest of the problems resulted from IdrA's travel schedule today.
Nobody else is talking about the problems resulting from the travel schedule. That was brought up and clarified on page 1 or 2.
Stop bringing it up. It is irrelevant. Your last 10 posts have mentioned it.
No, it wasn't "seen" that way, it's explicitly what was said.
There was confusion among everyone involved, including some admins. IdrA's trip to Gamescom confused the situation further.
If you fuck up, say that you fucked up. Man up. I edited my posts to show some quotes explicitly saying that they were banning Idra. There is no confusion about what was said.
I am glad you guys went back on the decision but don't try to cover up what happened with lies.
Hell, if an admin or 2 were idiots and messed up... just say that. Say what actually happened. Just don't try to lie to minimize it.
Seriously I love the ESL, I love anyone who contributes to e-sports. But Integrity... please
If you want to support things like Integrity on something like reversing a ban on a player that deserved it in the first place, how about supporting things like sportsmanship?
Why was Idra even allowed to participate in ESL after what happened the first time around? This happens every time Idra competes in an event. Idra treats ESL like its a joke, the joke should be on him when he doesn't get to participate in prize tournaments and is banned from play. His sponsors should honestly pull out from backing his extremely poor attitude. Its one thing to earn your respect for your skill, its another to use that respect to think that you can say and do whatever the fuck you want to whomever the fuck you want.
Being a nerd is no excuse for lack of respect or being socially inept. Learn the basics of being a REASONABLE human being should come before being a monkey that knows how to play professional RTS.
Seriously, I love watching skill in action, I love quality replays that have tons of entertainment. But a little class... please
I agree. If he breaks the rules he breaks the rules. What in particular are you talking about here? I sure as hell know what I am talking about, but I don't know what you are talking about nor how it's supposed to be any sort of direct reply to what I posted, as they seem to be two different topics altogether.
Its not a direct reply on your words themselves or disagreeing with what you say. I just think you should be pointing out the bigger picture about what is good for esports. What is more of an important issue right now? Respect or Integrity? While it could be argued that both are equally as important, without respect for others, no sponsors are going to back events full of 12 year olds who love their video games, and after that, we won't need integrity because there won't be any money in this game
On August 17 2010 05:51 Surrealz wrote: While I agree with you on all of those points, you did not mention anything at all about bigT calling Idra the "a move zerg" and CONSTANTLY BMing other amazing players. He is annoying people so much that Chill, a huge member of TL, decided to BM bigT with his BIggerT stream.
Most people are agreeing idra overreacted, but nothing is being done on the basis of WHY idra didn't want BigT casting. Honestly, BigT is rude. He doesn't belong in these huge tourneys, and if I was a top notch player like Idra, I wouldn't want some rank 70 diamond guy telling me I'm an A move zerg while I'm playing.
And he was lagging idra. Its a special circumstance. The guy is in Korea. He is doing so much for esports its not even funny just by being an amazing US player over there.
Let me say that's inaccurate. You are suggesting that IdrA didn't want casters because it was BigT. The reality is that IdrA has been denying ANY caster who wants to broadcast his match while playing in National ESL. A pattern of behavior that started prior to last night.
Right, right Idra has said multiple time that BigT wasn't bothering him. He was bothering me though and I'm apparently not the only one. Good for Idra just ignoring "a-move zerg" but it's not something I care to see from a caster.
On August 17 2010 05:44 Surrealz wrote: Please, just remove BigT from the web, and clean Idra's record. Idra is doing more for SC2 than 99.9999999% of this population, including the casters.
If anything, IdrA's BM is hurting e-sports' attempts at becoming respected. Having the best westerner in the world act like this isn't good for the scene.
I don't like BigT's style of stream either, but I still think his "service", if you can honestly call it that, is doing much more than Idra's "get paid to play good and """"""entertain"""""" with poor manners"
(Notice I had to quote entertain, because his poor attitude is anything but entertaining and is in fact doing us all a disfavor by making us all look like a bunch of nerd-rage kids who don't deserve to get paid to actually entertain?) <-- and yes despite the fact that you guys all probably knew what I was talking about, it was just something that HAD to be pointed out because of how bad this really is.
I'll be the first to say Idra is a great RTS player. I'll also be the first to say that he is a horrible human being.
You just made me face-palm so hard.
You think Idra is a horrible human being? Hitler was a horrible human being. Idra plays video games.
the reason Idra bmed was probably because he is used to well run, professional events and there were so many unnecessary complications.
also, a commentator bming a player? really? Instant ban for BigT in any well run organization. Not to mention that he has been caught cheating by collusion.
On August 17 2010 06:33 Surrealz wrote: ok so the professional players aren't allowed to trash talk crappy admins, but its PERFECTLY FINE for crappy casters to trash talk professional players.
yup sounds about right.
Who even said that ? I think it was pretty obvious from this thread that none of them were acceptable.
Check the rest of the thread, I think he's decided to start a witch hunt for BigT or something.
On August 17 2010 06:13 CaptnIgnit wrote: ... seriously?
Like if the ESL had been monitoring the matches and caught the StrikeCro/Jobless debocale before IdrA had already finished playing?
Or wait, maybe if an ESL representative told IdrA that BigT would be casting his games live?
IdrA got angry because YOU fucked up. Anyone would have gotten angry in his situation. And then you made it worse throughout the night.
IdrA isn't completely without blame, because he did break your rules in certain ways, but 99% of the problems last night were because of your guy's actions.
We are monitoring the matches, the issue just wasn't brought to our attention properly until those previous two matches were played. It's easy to say that, but unless your running the event and watching how fast people are playing matches its easy for two rounds of an event to happen before a mistake can be totally investigated. Players are setting up, starting and finishing matches often times before previous issues can be resolved or even discussed. So while I wish there was a better way of resolving tickets in a faster time frame there's really no way to interrupt a player while he's already playing his match.
Actually our admin staff contacted IdrA before his second and third round matches. That's why he got PP. Still I don't think this should be an issue for National ESL staff. Players should WANT their matches casted. If I was IdrA I would want to build up my audience and get more people interested in me. But what do I know, I just ran the largest eSports website from 2002-2006.
As for the IdrA issue, only one angry here is you. We did our best to resolve the issue and deal with it. IdrA's travel considerations obviously created a more difficult situation.
Last I checked IdrA is already pretty famous. But what do you know, you only ran the largest eSports website from 2002-2006.
Why would he want his matches casted if it meant a total d-bag would be doing it, and at the same time cause lag. If I were him I'd take the two penalty points as well.
On August 17 2010 06:33 Baarn wrote: So back to my question that was never answered from a prior post. Was it jobless that decided to rematch or was esl admins decision? Also why not be more strict about the no show rule in the future to avoid drama like this?
The two players didn't communicate. Strike reported the lose but Jobless had evidence showing he was looking for Strike. Strike didn't have evidence showing the same. This is why the match was overturned.
On August 17 2010 05:44 Surrealz wrote: Please, just remove BigT from the web, and clean Idra's record. Idra is doing more for SC2 than 99.9999999% of this population, including the casters.
If anything, IdrA's BM is hurting e-sports' attempts at becoming respected. Having the best westerner in the world act like this isn't good for the scene.
I don't like BigT's style of stream either, but I still think his "service", if you can honestly call it that, is doing much more than Idra's "get paid to play good and """"""entertain"""""" with poor manners"
(Notice I had to quote entertain, because his poor attitude is anything but entertaining and is in fact doing us all a disfavor by making us all look like a bunch of nerd-rage kids who don't deserve to get paid to actually entertain?) <-- and yes despite the fact that you guys all probably knew what I was talking about, it was just something that HAD to be pointed out because of how bad this really is.
I'll be the first to say Idra is a great RTS player. I'll also be the first to say that he is a horrible human being.
You just made me face-palm so hard.
You think Idra is a horrible human being? Hitler was a horrible human being. Idra plays video games.
the reason Idra bmed was probably because he is used to well run, professional events and there were so many unnecessary complications.
also, a commentator bming a player? really? Instant ban for BigT in any well run organization. Not to mention that he has been caught cheating by collusion.
Like I said, I'm not a big fan of BigT.. both are pretty much evils that the rest of us have to live with...
I'm not the one comparing Idra to be Hitler, but I'm comparing him to the rest of the GREAT people that I've met playing this game... Idra is just on a whole other level of immaturity and I don't care for it one bit.
No, it wasn't "seen" that way, it's explicitly what was said.
There was confusion among everyone involved, including some admins. IdrA's trip to Gamescom confused the situation further.
If you fuck up, say that you fucked up. Man up. I edited my posts to show some quotes explicitly saying that they were banning Idra. There is no confusion about what was said.
I am glad you guys went back on the decision but don't try to cover up what happened with lies.
Hell, if an admin or 2 were idiots and messed up... just say that. Say what actually happened. Just don't try to lie to minimize it.
Seriously I love the ESL, I love anyone who contributes to e-sports. But Integrity... please
If you want to support things like Integrity on something like reversing a ban on a player that deserved it in the first place, how about supporting things like sportsmanship?
Why was Idra even allowed to participate in ESL after what happened the first time around? This happens every time Idra competes in an event. Idra treats ESL like its a joke, the joke should be on him when he doesn't get to participate in prize tournaments and is banned from play. His sponsors should honestly pull out from backing his extremely poor attitude. Its one thing to earn your respect for your skill, its another to use that respect to think that you can say and do whatever the fuck you want to whomever the fuck you want.
Being a nerd is no excuse for lack of respect or being socially inept. Learn the basics of being a REASONABLE human being should come before being a monkey that knows how to play professional RTS.
Seriously, I love watching skill in action, I love quality replays that have tons of entertainment. But a little class... please
I agree. If he breaks the rules he breaks the rules. What in particular are you talking about here? I sure as hell know what I am talking about, but I don't know what you are talking about nor how it's supposed to be any sort of direct reply to what I posted, as they seem to be two different topics altogether.
Its not a direct reply on your words themselves or disagreeing with what you say. I just think you should be pointing out the bigger picture about what is good for esports. What is more of an important issue right now? Respect or Integrity? While it could be argued that both are equally as important, without respect for others, no sponsors are going to back events full of 12 year olds who love their video games, and after that, we won't need integrity because there won't be any money in this game
Well firstly that's an opinion, and not one I necessarily agree with. I've yet to actually see something from Idra that I thought would be bad for e-sports. Suggestions that someone is *gasp* a bad player really isn't as big of a deal as so many oversensitive kids seem to like to think it is.
Also, the point of this topic, of the post I was replying to, is not discussion of Idra and his behavior. It's discussion of ESL and their actions.
On August 17 2010 06:36 MamiyaOtaru wrote: Right, right Idra has said multiple time that BigT wasn't bothering him. He was bothering me though and I'm apparently not the only one. Good for Idra just ignoring "a-move zerg" but it's not something I care to see from a caster.
IdrA hasn't been allowing casters in previous events and was told last night specifically that we would. This issue of IdrA not allowing casters has little to do with BigT, as IdrA said himself before. IdrA made the issue about BigT after the fact.
also, a commentator bming a player? really? Instant ban for BigT in any well run organization. Not to mention that he has been caught cheating by collusion.
I have no idea what's going on here, so a neutral voice coming in. Apparently what I've garnered is, a caster (in this case BigT) was bming idra in the games he was casting of him, IdrA refused to let BigT cast his games since not only was he just BMing him, but it was also causing him unnecessary lag. So the ESL bans him from the tournament.
so you are fine with these guys penalizing players but not their own people\casters for inappropriate behavior?
I didn't read all the rules but I don't think it says "casters may not call Idra the a-moving zerg" anywhere.
I'm pretty sure. I mean, I'm PRETTY sure, that it does say somewhere that casters shouldn't be going around BMing professional players in matches that they don't like. This is a business, money is being transacted, and it's unprofessional to be bad mouthing someone.
On August 17 2010 06:40 ShaperofDreams wrote: so you are fine with these guys penalizing players but not their own people\casters for inappropriate behavior?
edit: also not paying players
idra might have a bad rep but esl has a much worse one.
ESL is working on investigating issues with everyone involved. The issue for tonight's matches was IdrA's involvement. That's the reason for the thread.
On August 17 2010 06:23 Deadlyfish wrote: I dont get why people seem to like IdrA. There have been so many threads where he has been brought up and the same people just come defending him. I just cant see why anyone would ever side with him, given his record.
You'd think that people would know that he can get pretty furious over nothing, and that he constantly insults other players just for doing a certain build or playing a certain race in a video game.
It's not a coincidence that IdrA always gets into "trouble" with people. Why was it IdrA this time, and not one of the other 375 players? Probably has something to do with him having some kind of problem with his temper.
Some of us care more about watching great Starcraft than whether a player insults an admin or his opponent, or says a ritual "gg" after every game. If ESL is this close to banning a great player because he told someone the admins were idiots, then I have a problem with ESL, not IdrA. (The casting issue I find more compelling.)
If this was someone else, less known, nobody would care, and they would probably say that it was his own fault. But because the semi decent zerg (IdrA) broke the rules, he shouldnt be punished. What kind of twisted logic is that?
You dont make exceptions, rules are rules. It's simple, you break rule, you get consequence. Thats it. It's their tournament, they could say whatever they want to him and still ban him.
I dont know who this "bigT" is, but i'm all for anyone who insults IdrA
On August 17 2010 06:25 Merikh wrote: I'd also like to throw out there, I didn't see it come up. IdrA has been denying casters since the first qualifier cup. lol why is it just recently when IdrA doing well he gets the PP and not in the first 2 qualifier cups? (and the BM anyone remember the silver game? no PP there? lol) I just find it kind of funny.
Just a different question that I don't think someone has brought up.
This is actually a good point, although probably not in the way you intended. IdrA berating Silver for playing Terran really should have had some consequences other than getting him laughed at.
I don't understand why a player is forced to accept a caster who obviously is bad mannering him and other players. If the caster is doing this it is imho worse for the ESL than a player flaming said caster. You can always get new casters, but in the future the players WILL have the choice which tournaments to attend.
On August 17 2010 06:43 Fruscainte wrote: I'm pretty sure. I mean, I'm PRETTY sure, that it does say somewhere that casters shouldn't be going around BMing professional players in matches that they don't like. This is a business, money is being transacted, and it's unprofessional to be bad mouthing someone.
Incorrected. IdrA used issues with BigT after the fact. For a few weeks now IdrA has been not allowing ANY casters to join his streams and was given PP for it.
The rest of the issues come from a different topic that no one seems to talk about.
On August 17 2010 06:40 ShaperofDreams wrote: so you are fine with these guys penalizing players but not their own people\casters for inappropriate behavior?
edit: also not paying players
idra might have a bad rep but esl has a much worse one.
What's up with random people going ape shit about this? Looks like you just read one line and make a frigging lot assumptions.
Also whatever is going on everyone's supposed to behave appropriate. I don't know that caster but I guess he'll get his penalty. But I can't even believe people support Idras flaming just and really just because he's a good player. Keeping calm in such situations is helping everyone.
On August 17 2010 06:13 CaptnIgnit wrote: ... seriously?
Like if the ESL had been monitoring the matches and caught the StrikeCro/Jobless debocale before IdrA had already finished playing?
Or wait, maybe if an ESL representative told IdrA that BigT would be casting his games live?
IdrA got angry because YOU fucked up. Anyone would have gotten angry in his situation. And then you made it worse throughout the night.
IdrA isn't completely without blame, because he did break your rules in certain ways, but 99% of the problems last night were because of your guy's actions.
We are monitoring the matches, the issue just wasn't brought to our attention properly until those previous two matches were played. It's easy to say that, but unless your running the event and watching how fast people are playing matches its easy for two rounds of an event to happen before a mistake can be totally investigated. Players are setting up, starting and finishing matches often times before previous issues can be resolved or even discussed. So while I wish there was a better way of resolving tickets in a faster time frame there's really no way to interrupt a player while he's already playing his match.
Actually our admin staff contacted IdrA before his second and third round matches. That's why he got PP. Still I don't think this should be an issue for National ESL staff. Players should WANT their matches casted. If I was IdrA I would want to build up my audience and get more people interested in me. But what do I know, I just ran the largest eSports website from 2002-2006.
As for the IdrA issue, only one angry here is you. We did our best to resolve the issue and deal with it. IdrA's travel considerations obviously created a more difficult situation.
So I've been following this since last night and every time someone from ESL comes to TL to "clarify" the situation it seems to be worst. First starting with BigT and his "jokes" which made me say to myself, "Well, I'm not gonna watch any stream that BigT does anymore". Then G2Wolf comes on to clarify it some more but just making it worst and so I decided to not watch any streams from ESL. Then what you just said in bold really bothered me. Now, not only am I not going to watch any stream from ESL I will support the Boycott ESL and tell others to do so. The amount of arrogance the admins of ESL showed through out this event is not only hurting them but to e-sports too. You've lost a viewer today and will continue to do so at the rate you are going.
also, a commentator bming a player? really? Instant ban for BigT in any well run organization. Not to mention that he has been caught cheating by collusion.
I have no idea what's going on here, so a neutral voice coming in. Apparently what I've garnered is, a caster (in this case BigT) was bming idra in the games he was casting of him, IdrA refused to let BigT cast his games since not only was he just BMing him, but it was also causing him unnecessary lag. So the ESL bans him from the tournament.
so you are fine with these guys penalizing players but not their own people\casters for inappropriate behavior?
I didn't read all the rules but I don't think it says "casters may not call Idra the a-moving zerg" anywhere.
I'm pretty sure. I mean, I'm PRETTY sure, that it does say somewhere that casters shouldn't be going around BMing professional players in matches that they don't like. This is a business, money is being transacted, and it's unprofessional to be bad mouthing someone.
The first part is superfluous.
IdrA didn't allow casters into his game because he felt it was causing lag / latency issues. The caster complained to the administrator and IdrA was penalized.
Later, organizational issues formed IdrA to play another series after he had already won. [Still unproven] offensive comments from IdrA caused him to be penalized later again.
My opinion is that BigT is catching a lot more flack that he should. I didn't listen to the first 6 hours of his cast, so if something happened during that period then I can't speak about it. Calling IdrA an "a-move Zerg" is no big deal and shouldn't be given a second thought at all. You shouldn't have to stroke players' egos as a caster.
Causing organizational issues is another matter as a caster, but I haven't seen BigT do any of that outside of the issue already addressed by the ESL administrators.
I don't want to sound like a smartass, but I think I will...
Why didn't anyone ask for a replay to cast with 1 game delay? imo most of the people watched only to see Idra anyways, so why should there be a problem with waiting a bit?
On another note: the esports competitions around Starcraft 2 is just starting to grow. Of course there will be upsets like this in the startup, but the community will choose the high quality events over low quality ones over time. The bad ones will simply drop out or get better as new rules for new situations are made and enforced (or not).
I have yet to see a completely flawless and well executed event with a high quality cast (King of the Beta was the closest so far) but I am sure there will be one and after that (hopefully) many to follow.
On August 17 2010 06:44 Voyager I wrote: This is actually a good point, although probably not in the way you intended. IdrA berating Silver for playing Terran really should have had some consequences other than getting him laughed at.
I agree, we at National ESL should have given him PP for this. In retrospect we should have but honestly since he lost the match this wasn't something we focused on at the time.
I actually doubt it says anywhere in the rules about a caster being professional other than not cheating...
Now whether or not people want to watch a bias cast is another thing... but hey... we all watch IdrA so a caster bming other players really shouldn't be as big of a deal as the actual opponents bming each other...
Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general.
On August 16 2010 21:12 floor exercise wrote: The real question is why does ESL give "official" caster designation to a person who:
Provokes players and take great pleasure in seeing them punished Cheats on MSN with players he prefers Lies and takes credit for tournaments he does not operate Does everything in his power to have other casters removed from games to hoard viewers (where is the community spirit?)
I don't think there has been a single tournament where this guy has not caused trouble thinking he's above the players themselves let alone other casters who are usually significantly better than him, with higher resolution streams that don't lag to shit.
Get rid of this clown
On August 16 2010 23:47 iCCup.Diamond wrote: This is a very interesting point. One mistake or drama I can forgive, but this laundry list from a guy that is very new to the scene? I don't know if I can swallow that. I actually had to give my casters specific instructions to call me and bring me in the game if BigT started being BigT. I should NEVER have to prepare ahead of time for an asshole caster.
As for the people defending the HuK thing, he should not have continued on the game when GG.net people got left out. He should have said "hey guys the gg.net casters got left out, let's re." It's what we would have done and to just allow it to go on is a horrible move and just proves what everyone is saying about BigT. I have never seen a caster cause so many problems in such a short time.....
Either way this thread is amazing and I'm going to sit back and watch how this unfolds. Either way I spent the first 2 hours at work today reading the 20+ pages of this tread that popped up while I was asleep. What a interesting day for E-drama....
On August 16 2010 15:39 XiaN wrote: Just to recap the last 15 hours
1.) IdrA refused to let BigT cast his first game after BigT bm'ing IdrA in the ingame chat 2.) HuK forced official gg.net casters to leave his game vs. MorroW because of lag and remade a game with only BigT as caster 3.) After that gg.net refused to let BigT cast the finals of the the EU and US qualifiers and disallowed him to cast the Top8 of the Gosucup. They thought BigT said HuK and MorroW to only let him cast their games ( which is def. not true ) 4.) Either StrifeCro or Jobless cheated an caused 2 rounds of the tournament to be replayed 5.) Chill flaming BigT in his BiggerT stream 6.) The whole IdrA vs. ESL thing
also, a commentator bming a player? really? Instant ban for BigT in any well run organization. Not to mention that he has been caught cheating by collusion.
I have no idea what's going on here, so a neutral voice coming in. Apparently what I've garnered is, a caster (in this case BigT) was bming idra in the games he was casting of him, IdrA refused to let BigT cast his games since not only was he just BMing him, but it was also causing him unnecessary lag. So the ESL bans him from the tournament.
Correct me where I'm wrong.
On August 17 2010 06:43 Argolis wrote:
so you are fine with these guys penalizing players but not their own people\casters for inappropriate behavior?
I didn't read all the rules but I don't think it says "casters may not call Idra the a-moving zerg" anywhere.
I'm pretty sure. I mean, I'm PRETTY sure, that it does say somewhere that casters shouldn't be going around BMing professional players in matches that they don't like. This is a business, money is being transacted, and it's unprofessional to be bad mouthing someone.
The first part is superfluous.
IdrA didn't allow casters into his game because he felt it was causing lag / latency issues. The caster complained to the administrator and IdrA was penalized.
Later, organizational issues formed IdrA to play another series after he had already won. [Still unproven] offensive comments from IdrA caused him to be penalized later again.
I would be mad too if I had to replay a series I already won. And I would throw some angry words too at the very thought of being demanded to replay a series. Did the ESL actually look into it, or did they just go "LOL NOPE" and give him points and call it a day?
On August 17 2010 06:43 Fruscainte wrote: I'm pretty sure. I mean, I'm PRETTY sure, that it does say somewhere that casters shouldn't be going around BMing professional players in matches that they don't like. This is a business, money is being transacted, and it's unprofessional to be bad mouthing someone.
Incorrected. IdrA used issues with BigT after the fact. For a few weeks now IdrA has been not allowing ANY casters to join his streams and was given PP for it.
The rest of the issues come from a different topic that no one seems to talk about.
But BigT still did BM IdrA, and he was not punished.
With regards to the casting from replays issue, a lot of people here say they're okay with replay casting, but the people on the stream chats say the opposite. TBH, I didn't have an issue with the KOTB, HDH 2, and TSL 2 being replay cast, but for this type of tournament I think there might be issues because you have the brackets online and once people learn the results they are less likely to watch the casts, and Blizzard's tendency to show custom game losses in match history means people get spoiled all the time by irresponsible trolls.
I don't really have a good solution for this, by the way. There are ways you can disguise wins/losses for an invite-only tournament, but for an open event like this it's not feasible.
Idra didn't let a caster in, he admits it, everyone agrees that's against the rules. Fine.
But I think what everyone is concerned about, and what doesn't seem to be addressed at all (and this will keep bubbling along like all PR disasters do, until someone, finally, addresses it head on with a mea culpa) is the handling of Idra yesterday by adminstrators both here, on irc and no doubt in person.
I don't know what was said in private, but just what was posted, here, in black and white in the forums, was poor conduct. It leads me to think the conduct behind the scenes was even worse.
Until this is openly and honestly addressed and blame accepted, this will keep on going on and on. And it wont hurt Idra, he's already a martyr. But your organisation will be the worse for it.
Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general.
Yeah that's why they NEVER showed a tennis match of John McEnroe on TV and the commentators are famous millionairs.
This is the best possible response from ESL, we should surely be content with that.
Idra's response of "their fucking idiots and tell them that" warrants a penalty point but they were sensible and made it so he can still play in the masters. The mistakes they made can't be undone and so all we can do is accept this response (it's the best they could do) and hope they learn from this issue.
So let's look at the mistakes: 1) It is silly to force players to allow streamers. The lag situation will only get worse as Korean's/Liquid in Korea join tournaments in Europe. Plus we are bound to get issues with stream watching. It's completely uninforcable, drama is incoming if this continues. So it must be optional to allow streamers or just cast replays later. The wasted time trying to get into games is silly anyway, just get the replays sent straight out and it's "as good as" live anyway. 2) Be more consistent / set the rules down early. I was on Idra's side in this incident but clearly you have to sort out bad manner in the games. Why not ban all chat? (except it's lagging etc..) It's simple and effective. If someone is bad mannered to an admin, immediately screen-shot it and post evidence. 3) Lack of communication. You need to get all players on MSN or something. It's not hard just get it sorted before the games. Lack of communication nearly always plays a part in these dramas.
It is realy disturbing watching bigT stream when he talks about next idrA slayer every sec in a tone of disrespect against a gamer. (Im not a idrA fan and would write this anyways if the opponent wasnt idrA), Hes saying he hope the oppnent wins, like in the game yesterday idrA vs Bunny something.
taking side so hard is not good for the comentating. Also my opinion was that he harrased idrA some and then raged when he wasnt able to cast the stream.
BigTs stream is good but yesterday was a bit way to much rage. Dunno how much BigT has to do with this tournament but if he was some sort of admin or something it was very not proffesional
On August 17 2010 06:46 Dycedarg wrote: So I've been following this since last night and every time someone from ESL comes to TL to "clarify" the situation it seems to be worst. First starting with BigT and his "jokes" which made me say to myself, "Well, I'm not gonna watch any stream that BigT does anymore". Then G2Wolf comes on to clarify it some more but just making it worst and so I decided to not watch any streams from ESL. Then what you just said in bold really bothered me. Now, not only am I not going to watch any stream from ESL I will support the Boycott ESL and tell others to do so. The amount of arrogance the admins of ESL showed through out this event is not only hurting them but to e-sports too. You've lost a viewer today and will continue to do so at the rate you are going.
You can accuse me of arrogance all you want and it is frustrating at lack understand of the simple point. We are doing this FOR YOU!
National ESL is forcing casting and getting people streams to watch give you a better chance to see the game we all love. I'm not trying to attack anyone or create problems. My point is simple; its in everyone's best interest to cast these matches.
IdrA should want them casted because it makes him more popular. More fans means more sponsors means more money in his pocket. I dealt with the same issue with CS players back in the day. They couldn't understand why I pushed them to broadcast HLTV and give out demos.
The goal here is to make SC2 better, more popular and increase awareness of the sport.
On August 16 2010 21:12 floor exercise wrote: The real question is why does ESL give "official" caster designation to a person who:
Provokes players and take great pleasure in seeing them punished Cheats on MSN with players he prefers Lies and takes credit for tournaments he does not operate Does everything in his power to have other casters removed from games to hoard viewers (where is the community spirit?)
I don't think there has been a single tournament where this guy has not caused trouble thinking he's above the players themselves let alone other casters who are usually significantly better than him, with higher resolution streams that don't lag to shit.
On August 16 2010 23:47 iCCup.Diamond wrote: This is a very interesting point. One mistake or drama I can forgive, but this laundry list from a guy that is very new to the scene? I don't know if I can swallow that. I actually had to give my casters specific instructions to call me and bring me in the game if BigT started being BigT. I should NEVER have to prepare ahead of time for an asshole caster.
As for the people defending the HuK thing, he should not have continued on the game when GG.net people got left out. He should have said "hey guys the gg.net casters got left out, let's re." It's what we would have done and to just allow it to go on is a horrible move and just proves what everyone is saying about BigT. I have never seen a caster cause so many problems in such a short time.....
Either way this thread is amazing and I'm going to sit back and watch how this unfolds. Either way I spent the first 2 hours at work today reading the 20+ pages of this tread that popped up while I was asleep. What a interesting day for E-drama....
On August 16 2010 15:39 XiaN wrote: Just to recap the last 15 hours
1.) IdrA refused to let BigT cast his first game after BigT bm'ing IdrA in the ingame chat 2.) HuK forced official gg.net casters to leave his game vs. MorroW because of lag and remade a game with only BigT as caster 3.) After that gg.net refused to let BigT cast the finals of the the EU and US qualifiers and disallowed him to cast the Top8 of the Gosucup. They thought BigT said HuK and MorroW to only let him cast their games ( which is def. not true ) 4.) Either StrifeCro or Jobless cheated an caused 2 rounds of the tournament to be replayed 5.) Chill flaming BigT in his BiggerT stream 6.) The whole IdrA vs. ESL thing
Iccup.Diamond shouldn't be used as evidence against BigT as he clearly has a conflict of interest with BigT. No offense to Diamond but self-advertising on this thread doesn't really help your credibility.
Having said that, some of the issues with BigT are real, but we should give him a chance to defend himself.
Im still not so sure what BigT's casting skills and overall manners have to do in this topic, and firmly believe a different topic should be created for that matter.
pretty sure this was about Idra's PP and how the strife situation would be handled.
Having said that, some of the issues with BigT are real, but we should give him a chance to defend himself.
BigT was a designated caster for the event. Love or hate him, he has the right to cast the games. A player deliberatly broke the rules and refused to let him cast his game(s). In turn, BigT was "BM" to idra. Now this seems like a simple action leads to re-action issue. Neither of the two individuals did the right thing but BigT's lack of profesionalism was a response to Idra's actions.
I think what should happen is :
Idra gets penalized for breaking the rules (done) BigT apologizes to everyone (including Idra) and learns from the experience Everyone else just moves on.
Only reason bigT wanted to cast idras games so bad is because bigT wants to cast a game with a pro like idra in it. Do you think he would have complained if a different player told him not to stream? STRONGLY doubt it. And even if he did ESL probably would have been like who cares. It wasnt even an important game. If he wanted to stream it so bad he could have just casted the replay. But nope, he wanted to qq to the admins and keep quoting the rules just so he could cast an idra game and rub it in his face.
Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general.
Yeah that's why they NEVER showed a tennis match of John McEnroe on TV and the commentators are famous millionairs.
Notice how if you wikipedia the man, "bad manners" wasn't one of the major highlights of his career?
On August 17 2010 06:51 kar1181 wrote: Idra didn't let a caster in, he admits it, everyone agrees that's against the rules. Fine.
But I think what everyone is concerned about, and what doesn't seem to be addressed at all (and this will keep bubbling along like all PR disasters do, until someone, finally, addresses it head on with a mea culpa) is the handling of Idra yesterday by adminstrators both here, on irc and no doubt in person.
I don't know what was said in private, but just what was posted, here, in black and white in the forums, was poor conduct. It leads me to think the conduct behind the scenes was even worse.
Until this is openly and honestly addressed and blame accepted, this will keep on going on and on. And it wont hurt Idra, he's already a martyr. But your organisation will be the worse for it.
Midway is picking and choosing what he responds to, he obviously won't touch the REAL issue here that you've brought up.
On August 17 2010 06:50 Warrior Madness wrote: There is still the larger issue of BigT:
On August 16 2010 21:12 floor exercise wrote: The real question is why does ESL give "official" caster designation to a person who:
Provokes players and take great pleasure in seeing them punished Cheats on MSN with players he prefers Lies and takes credit for tournaments he does not operate Does everything in his power to have other casters removed from games to hoard viewers (where is the community spirit?)
I don't think there has been a single tournament where this guy has not caused trouble thinking he's above the players themselves let alone other casters who are usually significantly better than him, with higher resolution streams that don't lag to shit.
Get rid of this clown
On August 16 2010 23:47 iCCup.Diamond wrote: This is a very interesting point. One mistake or drama I can forgive, but this laundry list from a guy that is very new to the scene? I don't know if I can swallow that. I actually had to give my casters specific instructions to call me and bring me in the game if BigT started being BigT. I should NEVER have to prepare ahead of time for an asshole caster.
As for the people defending the HuK thing, he should not have continued on the game when GG.net people got left out. He should have said "hey guys the gg.net casters got left out, let's re." It's what we would have done and to just allow it to go on is a horrible move and just proves what everyone is saying about BigT. I have never seen a caster cause so many problems in such a short time.....
Either way this thread is amazing and I'm going to sit back and watch how this unfolds. Either way I spent the first 2 hours at work today reading the 20+ pages of this tread that popped up while I was asleep. What a interesting day for E-drama....
On August 16 2010 15:39 XiaN wrote: Just to recap the last 15 hours
1.) IdrA refused to let BigT cast his first game after BigT bm'ing IdrA in the ingame chat 2.) HuK forced official gg.net casters to leave his game vs. MorroW because of lag and remade a game with only BigT as caster 3.) After that gg.net refused to let BigT cast the finals of the the EU and US qualifiers and disallowed him to cast the Top8 of the Gosucup. They thought BigT said HuK and MorroW to only let him cast their games ( which is def. not true ) 4.) Either StrifeCro or Jobless cheated an caused 2 rounds of the tournament to be replayed 5.) Chill flaming BigT in his BiggerT stream 6.) The whole IdrA vs. ESL thing
Man .. there are golden days to come :D
Notice the common thread there?
On August 16 2010 15:49 BigT wrote:
Why is Big T in so many of those #s hahaha xD
Iccup.Diamond shouldn't be used as evidence against BigT as he clearly has a conflict of interest with BigT. No offense to Diamond but self-advertising on this thread doesn't really help your credibility.
Having said that, some of the issues with BigT are real, but we should give him a chance to defend himself.
That's true, there's not much evidence behind Diamond's sayings about BigT. I'm not talking about Diamond's integrity but as someone who's maybe missing some inside information it just doesn't seal the deal.
Having said that it seems there are enough people who are giving reason to believe BigT is further involved in this incident then he should be as a caster.
At this point BigT seems to have garnered a lot of flack from this incident, it'll be interesting what he himself has to say.
Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general.
Yeah that's why they NEVER showed a tennis match of John McEnroe on TV and the commentators are famous millionairs.
Notice how if you wikipedia the man, "bad manners" wasn't one of the major highlights of his career?
XD
"He is best remembered for his shot-making artistry and superb volleying; for his famous rivalries with Björn Borg, Jimmy Connors and Ivan Lendl; for his confrontational on-court behavior which frequently landed him in trouble with umpires and tennis authorities; and for the catchphrase "You can not be serious!" directed toward an umpire during a match at Wimbledon in 1981."
On August 17 2010 07:02 madagascar wrote: so uhm why does it HAVE to be casted? submitting replays by both players is not enough? what are they gonna do edit the replay?
If everyone was okay with casting from replays I'm sure they'd do just that. You can't imagine the number of people who bitch non-stop about replay casting, however, each time it's done. Although, I think that the HDH 2, KOTB, and TSL 2 demonstrate that you don't need live casting for high viewer count.
Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general.
Yeah that's why they NEVER showed a tennis match of John McEnroe on TV and the commentators are famous millionairs.
Notice how if you wikipedia the man, "bad manners" wasn't one of the major highlights of his career?
XD
"He is best remembered for his shot-making artistry and superb volleying; for his famous rivalries with Björn Borg, Jimmy Connors and Ivan Lendl; for his confrontational on-court behavior which frequently landed him in trouble with umpires and tennis authorities; and for the catchphrase "You can not be serious!" directed toward an umpire during a match at Wimbledon in 1981."
I'm sorry... I wasn't aware that one sentence out of such a long article served as a "MAIN HIGHLIGHT" lewl
On August 17 2010 06:59 DreXxiN wrote: Count me in on the Boycott. Total Bull and Idra deserves his victories.
No one took any victory away from IdrA. A player he beat wasn't suppose to play him because he mis-reported a match and said he won when he didn't. Now IdrA won't be here tonight to play, so he has to forfeit. IdrA knew he couldn't play tonight but decided to enter the tournament anyway.
That's the confusion here. IdrA just wanted to be top 4, so he didn't care that he would miss tonight's matches.
On August 17 2010 06:59 DreXxiN wrote: Count me in on the Boycott. Total Bull and Idra deserves his victories.
Oh no someone won't be watching the free stream!!! Now what?!?
Streamers get their money from advertisements. Advertisements, and please correct me if I'm wrong, generate more money for the more people who visit the area of the advertisement. In this case, the stream. And it's not just someone, if a stream usually of like 8 thousand for hypothetical dropped to like 2 or 3 thousand, whether it's free or not someone will notice and someone will change what's the issue.
I say we just boycott the ESL until BigT is no longer allowed to do casts.
I hate that it would hurt the few nice folks over there, but really, the players and the viewers are what made esports something that money could be made with in the first place.
If they want to play big bad ref with stingy and stubborn views, just don't watch any of their streams and download the replays later from some other website.
On August 17 2010 06:46 Dycedarg wrote: So I've been following this since last night and every time someone from ESL comes to TL to "clarify" the situation it seems to be worst. First starting with BigT and his "jokes" which made me say to myself, "Well, I'm not gonna watch any stream that BigT does anymore". Then G2Wolf comes on to clarify it some more but just making it worst and so I decided to not watch any streams from ESL. Then what you just said in bold really bothered me. Now, not only am I not going to watch any stream from ESL I will support the Boycott ESL and tell others to do so. The amount of arrogance the admins of ESL showed through out this event is not only hurting them but to e-sports too. You've lost a viewer today and will continue to do so at the rate you are going.
You can accuse me of arrogance all you want and it is frustrating at lack understand of the simple point. We are doing this FOR YOU!
National ESL is forcing casting and getting people streams to watch give you a better chance to see the game we all love. I'm not trying to attack anyone or create problems. My point is simple; its in everyone's best interest to cast these matches.
IdrA should want them casted because it makes him more popular. More fans means more sponsors means more money in his pocket. I dealt with the same issue with CS players back in the day. They couldn't understand why I pushed them to broadcast HLTV and give out demos.
The goal here is to make SC2 better, more popular and increase awareness of the sport.
But it is not Idra's decision whether it should be casted or not. You have a rule stating that it must be casted, and thus should be following the rule without exception. If he ignores it, you refer to the rule and penalize him accordingly. There should be no 'want' in it.
You're assuming Idra wants them casted. You're assuming he wants more money in his pocket. For all you know, Idra just wants to get better, and a laggy game will not do that. So either you penalize him for not accepting the laggy stream, or you let him have a lag-free stream and make an exception in the rules. Your goal is that. Idra's goal may be completely different. Do not assume his goal is the same as yours, even if it might be.
If you are going to force streams, at least make it so that the caster does not insult any player. Even sarcastic comments can be taken the wrong way. As a caster, he is somewhat representing the organisation. Thus, he should be acting professionally. If a player does not cooperate, it is not his duty to insult the player.
On August 17 2010 07:01 KingRajesh wrote: Midway is picking and choosing what he responds to, he obviously won't touch the REAL issue here that you've brought up.
It's already been discussed. What more do you want me to say? Let me repeat. We made some mistakes, we admit to it. We have done our best to fix it while at the same time punishing people who deserved it.
Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general.
Yeah that's why they NEVER showed a tennis match of John McEnroe on TV and the commentators are famous millionairs.
Notice how if you wikipedia the man, "bad manners" wasn't one of the major highlights of his career?
XD
"He is best remembered for his shot-making artistry and superb volleying; for his famous rivalries with Björn Borg, Jimmy Connors and Ivan Lendl; for his confrontational on-court behavior which frequently landed him in trouble with umpires and tennis authorities; and for the catchphrase "You can not be serious!" directed toward an umpire during a match at Wimbledon in 1981."
I'm sorry... I wasn't aware that one sentence out of such a long article served as a "MAIN HIGHLIGHT" lewl
You're really going to continue this? That "one sentence" is the article's fucking summary, the very purpose of which is to give you the main highlight. McEnroe is legendary for his tremendous results and for his temper in the same exact way that Idra is.
You guys have to understand that as a PR guy, midway probably doesn't have the authority to come here and say "We sucked" on behalf of the ESL. I'm pretty sure he understands that much of what went on was their fault.
It's already been discussed. What more do you want me to say? Let me repeat. We made some mistakes, we admit to it. We have done our best to fix it while at the same time punishing people who deserved it.
Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general.
Yeah that's why they NEVER showed a tennis match of John McEnroe on TV and the commentators are famous millionairs.
Notice how if you wikipedia the man, "bad manners" wasn't one of the major highlights of his career?
XD
"He is best remembered for his shot-making artistry and superb volleying; for his famous rivalries with Björn Borg, Jimmy Connors and Ivan Lendl; for his confrontational on-court behavior which frequently landed him in trouble with umpires and tennis authorities; and for the catchphrase "You can not be serious!" directed toward an umpire during a match at Wimbledon in 1981."
I'm sorry... I wasn't aware that one sentence out of such a long article served as a "MAIN HIGHLIGHT" lewl
You're really going to continue this? That "one sentence" is the article's fucking summary, the very purpose of which is to give you the main highlight. McEnroe is legendary for his tremendous results and for his temper in the same exact way that Idra is.
Maybe you should read the entire article... either way... if you like garbage, keep watching it, it doesn't affect me what you watch... lolol... maybe you were missing the point at what i was getting at anyways... nobody deserves to be treated the way idra treats people... if you like watching that then go watch some WWE or something... they have alot of garbage that satisfies your tastes.
Here's something in the article which I find fitting though... and should also be applied to idra...
"Controversy was never far from McEnroe, however; in his fourth round match against Mikael Pernfors at the 1990 Australian Open, McEnroe was ejected from the tournament[4] for swearing at the umpire, supervisor, and referee. He was warned by the umpire for intimidating a lineswoman, and then docked a point for smashing a racket. McEnroe was apparently unaware that a new Code of Conduct, which had been introduced just before the tournament, meant that a third code violation would not lead to the deduction of a game but instead would result in immediate disqualification; therefore, when McEnroe unleashed a volley of abuse at umpire Gerry Armstrong, he was defaulted. He was fined $65,000 for the incidents."
Yeah.... I really hope this happens to Idra... take away his sponsorship please.
Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general.
Yeah that's why they NEVER showed a tennis match of John McEnroe on TV and the commentators are famous millionairs.
Notice how if you wikipedia the man, "bad manners" wasn't one of the major highlights of his career?
XD
"He is best remembered for his shot-making artistry and superb volleying; for his famous rivalries with Björn Borg, Jimmy Connors and Ivan Lendl; for his confrontational on-court behavior which frequently landed him in trouble with umpires and tennis authorities; and for the catchphrase "You can not be serious!" directed toward an umpire during a match at Wimbledon in 1981."
I'm sorry... I wasn't aware that one sentence out of such a long article served as a "MAIN HIGHLIGHT" lewl
Well, if you watch highlights of his career, his antics on the court are pretty much always brought up. Nowadays when he plays show-matches, he fakes getting angry to entertain the crowd, using the "You can not be serious!" catchphrase, throwing rackets and such things. There were also A LOT written about it when he played. So yes... it was a "main highlight" of his career...
so in like 2 week, BigT has gotten more problems than all other casters. Sucks for BigT fans, but just not allowing bigT to cast anymore fix most of the future/current problem?
On August 17 2010 07:02 Fruscainte wrote: If what I'm hearing is true, I think it's bullshit that the ESL is looking over BigT's constant BM and apparent cheating.
Read Chill's response above.
National ESL is reviewing all of the people we let broadcast. We are still figuring our broadcast partner for the American Championship event this October.
On August 17 2010 07:01 KingRajesh wrote: Midway is picking and choosing what he responds to, he obviously won't touch the REAL issue here that you've brought up.
It's already been discussed. What more do you want me to say? Let me repeat. We made some mistakes, we admit to it. We have done our best to fix it while at the same time punishing people who deserved it.
I'm guessing some people want to hear how specific people at ESL were disciplined for their actions that contributed to the event, similarly to how Idra's actions were spelled out in detail.
I'm hoping that the majority of the community understands that you, or anyone else at ESL, can neither come out and say specifics regarding to what happens internally with ESL nor should feel obligated to broadcast that information.
On August 17 2010 07:01 KingRajesh wrote: Midway is picking and choosing what he responds to, he obviously won't touch the REAL issue here that you've brought up.
It's already been discussed. What more do you want me to say? Let me repeat. We made some mistakes, we admit to it. We have done our best to fix it while at the same time punishing people who deserved it.
yeah you apologized but at the same time you refused to talk about ALL the stuff that happened. also it doesn't help if you apologize and some post later you act all arrogant
i guess you will not change this behaviour since this sems to be the version you gonna stick to. so it is kind of pointless to request further clarification
nah fuck it, at least the people will see another looong thread of esl just not looking good.
I don't know what happened, and honestly I don't care. Who cares? I trust the ESL admins to make the best decisions for the tournament, after all it's in their best interest. And also that BigT guy should be banned from casting anything bigger than 20$ for he is a terrible caster, and an unpleasant person in general.
On August 17 2010 06:54 midway wrote: IdrA should want them casted because it makes him more popular.
Oh how nice of you!
I Agree! Who knows, if idra plays enough games that get casted maybe people will take notice? Maybe he might even join a pro team and perhaps live his dream and move to korea to play as a starcraft pro for a living.
Well I wasn't happy with what happened last night. But as everything developed though, this just seems to be a case of error of one or two admins and the error has mostly been amended by further review by other esl officials. For all the miscommunication and complicating matters surrounding the situation, this is a pretty good outcome.
Would people like esl to own up to any mistakes? Probably yes but I can see why they may not want to. I think we can at least take comfort in the fact that this will be a learning experience for everyone involved.
Side note: I agree on casting replays instead of live games in the future. It is so much better for the players and really no different for the audience.
(btw <3 midway, I appreciate everything you have done for esports. Your work with gotfrag and CS is what got me into esports before I ever heard of professional starcraft)
On August 17 2010 06:52 Klive5ive wrote: This is the best possible response from ESL, we should surely be content with that.
Idra's response of "their fucking idiots and tell them that" warrants a penalty point but they were sensible and made it so he can still play in the masters. The mistakes they made can't be undone and so all we can do is accept this response (it's the best they could do) and hope they learn from this issue.
So let's look at the mistakes: 1) It is silly to force players to allow streamers. The lag situation will only get worse as Korean's/Liquid in Korea join tournaments in Europe. Plus we are bound to get issues with stream watching. It's completely uninforcable, drama is incoming if this continues. So it must be optional to allow streamers or just cast replays later. The wasted time trying to get into games is silly anyway, just get the replays sent straight out and it's "as good as" live anyway. 2) Be more consistent / set the rules down early. I was on Idra's side in this incident but clearly you have to sort out bad manner in the games. Why not ban all chat? (except it's lagging etc..) It's simple and effective. If someone is bad mannered to an admin, immediately screen-shot it and post evidence. 3) Lack of communication. You need to get all players on MSN or something. It's not hard just get it sorted before the games. Lack of communication nearly always plays a part in these dramas.
I disagree with this, and since you mention Liquid I think as a manager/player of the Liquid squad that is moving to Korea it's an good post for me to comment on.
Most of the time if a tournament is hosted then under normal conditions they should allow a player to play without casters/obses if the lag is very bad. Playing condition should be very high on the list of things tournaments should care about. However! Tournaments do rely on broadcasts. They can suffer an occasional unforeseen lag scenario and still be fine. It really sucks if it's in the final but replays can still be used. If however lag appeared in every single game, then this tournament will lose it's right to exist because they can't broadcast anything during their promised live casting hours. Think of a 16-man invite with 5 players participating from Asia all telling the casters to leave. Tournament popularity=dead. Keep this in mind.
If, by rules, they allow a tournament to be open to players from Asia this means there is a good chance these players will claim lag in every single game, and thus they won't have a single game of the Asian players casted. If this is how it is going to be this leads to one very simple change: the exclusion of Asian players. Tournaments will realize they can't perform up to par when Asian players tell their casters to leave the games. If we keep up with the 100% absolute attitude of player always deciding this will be the end of live-broadcasted international tournaments. That is a worst case scenario for tournament host, player, and fan.
If players, that know beforehand that they will lag, do not play with obses in live broad-casted tournaments they very directly endanger the state of the tournament. For example if we did another TL:I a 16-man invite tournament, and we would have Idra start in the Ro16 play without casters all the way to the final to win it without a single casted game. This is beyond acceptable for tournaments. It will kill every tournament out there so in the long run kills e-sports for the players. Players need to more understanding for tournaments as well as tournaments showing more understanding to players.
This definitely should not apply to a $100 open tournament, but in bigger tournaments it seems reasonable to me that you should not be allowed to play without obses if you pre-tournament know you are a guarantee to cause lag. With that in mind I will make sure that Liquid players in Korea take into account the scope of a broadcast and tournament in order to make up their mind in each occurring situation. If it's a $100 tournament and they tell a caster to leave; they have my full support. If they willingly joined a $10k invitational on the US server then if the tournament insists on casters in the game then my players will agree with this.
For large invitationals and the like there needs to be a rule that if you are playing from another server you endanger the broadcasts in such a manner that you should be forced to play with obses. And that you willingly submit to the potential lag that you cause by participating.
For yesterdays $100 tournament it seems a rather small deal to play without casters a few games, and it seems completely reasonable to ask casters to leave due to lag. For a bigger tournament for example an invitational that relies on live broadcasting, you should pre-tournament agree to playing with casters or not play at all, in case your location is a guarantee for lag. If your location was no indication of potential lag happening then the tournament can suffer a few of these instances and use a much more free stance with regard to players lagging and playing on their own server.
As a conclusion I would like to say that replays can and will be used for tournaments, but that this is not always possible for every tournament. The rapid speed of play means one day invitationals would suck for trying to do this with replays. On the other hand TSL and HDH do fine with replays because they develop so slowly, something which only the really big tournaments are able to do without losing fan interest. It can also be in a sponsors best interest to require a live setting. Or it can be an organizations believe that e-sports can only grow into a real sport if we do it live just like every other major sport in the world. There are many reasons why certain organizations and tournaments want to, or need to, be done in a live setting.
On August 17 2010 07:20 LawGQ wrote: Is it so much to ask to just fire BigT?
You gotta meet the players and viewers somewhere.
If you ban Idra, you need to fire BigT.
It's easy.
Considering IdrA wasn't banned that's not really an issue then is it?
As for BigT's status, he doesn't work for us. We allowed him to cast.
This makes no sense. How on earth was Idra penalized 2 points if BigT doesn't work for you? Obviously BigT must have had some kind of official status if he was able to punish Idra for not letting him in the game.
On August 17 2010 07:25 Shatter wrote: Well I wasn't happy with what happened last night. But as everything developed though, this just seems to be a case of error of one or two admins and the error has mostly been amended by further review by other esl officials. For all the miscommunication and complicating matters surrounding the situation, this is a pretty good outcome.
Would people like esl to own up to any mistakes? Probably yes but I can see why they may not want to. I think we can at least take comfort in the fact that this will be a learning experience for everyone involved.
Side note: I agree on casting replays instead of live games in the future. It is so much better for the players and really no different for the audience.
(btw <3 midway, I appreciate everything you have done for esports. Your work with gotfrag and CS is what got me into esports before I ever heard of professional starcraft)
I feel we have been clear about the entire situation and "own up" our mistakes. Are we going to go into detail about what was said between admins and IdrA? Of course not and there's no way any league would do that.
As for casting live versus replay. The audience clearly wants to see it live, comments here disagree but the actually interest and behavior of fans want live matches.
And thanks for support from the old days with GotFrag. I feel like I'm back in the middle of old DoG/GotFrag flame war threads.
I read through most of the pages of this thread, I found it rather interesting. Here are some observations:
1) A caster of a tournament (sanctioned) called a player a "1a zerg". This is completely unprofessional, given that he was asked to cast by ESL. Thoughts need to be made for having a code of conduct for casters, as well as considering how to resolve such situations in the future (perhaps having casters that don't disparage the players).
2) A player after playing several games, found out that he had to replay them. This is not an ideal situation, and frankly, there needs to be some controls in place to prevent this from happening. As a player, I would be irate if I found I needed to replay several games because the tournament staff can't verify wins.
3) A player choses not to have casters in the game because of latency issues. Given that the caster disparaged him, there were probably other valid reasons for not having the caster in the game, but this went against the rules of the tournament, and as such, was justified.
4) A player disparaged the tournament admins privately to another player (as I understand it). While there are rules in place to protect the image of the tournament, penalizing the player for these comments drew more attention to it rather than letting it slide. Poking a bear with a stick, then wondering why it attacks and making a big show of it isn't the best way to handle the situation. Stones, glass houses and such.
Hopefully the ESL will have some valuable learning points from this event, as they made many mistakes and a lot of this drama is their own causing. I hope they welcome community feedback instead of becoming defensive about it.
On August 17 2010 04:59 starcraft911 wrote: Penalty points for BM? Seriously? The winner should be the best at the game not the best at manners. ESL sounds like it's turning into a garbage organization.
Every sport has penalties for swearing or insulting other players and referees. Its time to tell the little IdrA fanboys that BM isnt cool and kicking him in the [somewhere where it hurts = his ego and his wallet] is the right way to do.
Personally I would prefer for him to be uninvited for the IEM global challenge at the Gamescom, but its too late for that. IdrA is simply a bad face for Starcraft 2 as an eSport.
I always like to remind everyone about the definition of "Gosu" as it is written in the Liquipedia and that includes superior manner in addition to the playing skills, so IdrA is 100% NOT gosu.
On August 17 2010 07:28 motbob wrote: This makes no sense. How on earth was Idra penalized 2 points if BigT doesn't work for you? Obviously BigT must have had some kind of official status if he was able to punish Idra for not letting him in the game.
IdrA's PP had nothing to do with BigT. It could have been Day9 casting and we still would have given IdrA PP for not allowing a caster in.
The issue people seem to be focused on is BigT. Honestly as Nazgul pointed out Live broadcasting must be enforced. IdrA said he didn't want people in his match no matter who casted it. After the fact, the issue was focused on BigT because he was one of the casters who did IdrA's match later. If we can get past the issue of BigT, the focus on the PP was around IdrA's refusal for any casters and his comments which were later on in the day after the casting.
On August 17 2010 07:01 KingRajesh wrote: Midway is picking and choosing what he responds to, he obviously won't touch the REAL issue here that you've brought up.
It's already been discussed. What more do you want me to say? Let me repeat. We made some mistakes, we admit to it. We have done our best to fix it while at the same time punishing people who deserved it.
No, no you haven't. The issue we want addressed is why Idra was given that additional penalty point. The first everyone has accepted is due to not letting casters in and mostly everyone agrees that it is an appropriate action given the rules. You claim this point was awarded because of what happened on his side of the bracket(having to replay games) and not due to any other reasons. You said
Later a separate issue happened that had nothing to do with IdrA besides the fact that he was playing on the same side of the bracket.
However this does not reflect what is shown on your website along with what your other admins stated last night. On the website it says
1 Point Repeated Offence Unsportsmanlike conduct throughout the cup ingame against players and casters and against esl on forums
This can easily be seen here We want accountability for what it was that caused this point. And you have dodged every question that has asked for this. So until you answer this the issue will not be closed.
On August 17 2010 07:32 Fraud wrote: I read through most of the pages of this thread, I found it rather interesting. Here are some observations:
1) A caster of a tournament (sanctioned) called a player a "1a zerg". This is completely unprofessional, given that he was asked to cast by ESL. Thoughts need to be made for having a code of conduct for casters, as well as considering how to resolve such situations in the future (perhaps having casters that don't disparage the players).
2) A player after playing several games, found out that he had to replay them. This is not an ideal situation, and frankly, there needs to be some controls in place to prevent this from happening. As a player, I would be irate if I found I needed to replay several games because the tournament staff can't verify wins.
3) A player choses not to have casters in the game because of latency issues. Given that the caster disparaged him, there were probably other valid reasons for not having the caster in the game, but this went against the rules of the tournament, and as such, was justified.
4) A player disparaged the tournament admins privately to another player (as I understand it). While there are rules in place to protect the image of the tournament, penalizing the player for these comments drew more attention to it rather than letting it slide. Poking a bear with a stick, then wondering why it attacks and making a big show of it isn't the best way to handle the situation. Stones, glass houses and such.
Hopefully the ESL will have some valuable learning points from this event, as they made many mistakes and a lot of this drama is their own causing. I hope they welcome community feedback instead of becoming defensive about it.
1) He requested to cast, we didn't "ask" him to cast.
2) One one game forced to be replayed in regards to IdrA, his quarterfinal win. As he decided to go to lunch after he won this match he wasn't penalized for this, he still earned his top 4 qualifying spot.
3-4) We upheld the rules of the tournament which we fell are in the best interest of SC2 as an eSports.
On August 17 2010 04:25 Psiclone wrote: What an embarrassment. There should be 0 tolerance for berating players and staff.
hey if I say your gay? does that make me a noob at starcraft? does that make my game lest enjoyable to watch? does that HAVE ANYTHING to do with starcraft and electronic sports?
BigT isn't the only person streaming the ESL, so if you can't stand the guy, go watch the other streams. I believe puremiss and iccup people stream games as well.
On August 17 2010 07:28 motbob wrote: This makes no sense. How on earth was Idra penalized 2 points if BigT doesn't work for you? Obviously BigT must have had some kind of official status if he was able to punish Idra for not letting him in the game.
IdrA's PP had nothing to do with BigT. It could have been Day9 casting and we still would have given IdrA PP for not allowing a caster in.
The issue people seem to be focused on is BigT. Honestly as Nazgul pointed out Live broadcasting must be enforced. IdrA said he didn't want people in his match no matter who casted it. After the fact, the issue was focused on BigT because he was one of the casters who did IdrA's match later. If we can get past the issue of BigT, the focus on the PP was around IdrA's refusal for any casters and his comments which were later on in the day after the casting.
I do not think it should be enforced in $100 open tournaments. Doing that is a mistake in itself. Open tournaments always have very little control over games because it is impossible to have referees and admins observing everything. This is understandable and acceptable and those should be the conditions to keep in mind when determining whether to hard-enforce rules.
From my experience the lack of (again understandable) moderation in open tournaments means they gather so many shitty casters that it becomes a complete clusterfuck for players, who should at that point have the right to tell all the casters to leave. I do not feel it is justified to willingly accept bad player conditions in a tournament with 400 participants and a $100 prize. IEM is much larger than some broadcast of a single game in a small qualifier and definitely didn't rely on every single game of this tournament being casted, in which case I will always side with player conditions.
On August 17 2010 07:28 motbob wrote: This makes no sense. How on earth was Idra penalized 2 points if BigT doesn't work for you? Obviously BigT must have had some kind of official status if he was able to punish Idra for not letting him in the game.
IdrA's PP had nothing to do with BigT. It could have been Day9 casting and we still would have given IdrA PP for not allowing a caster in.
The issue people seem to be focused on is BigT. Honestly as Nazgul pointed out Live broadcasting must be enforced. IdrA said he didn't want people in his match no matter who casted it. After the fact, the issue was focused on BigT because he was one of the casters who did IdrA's match later. If we can get past the issue of BigT, the focus on the PP was around IdrA's refusal for any casters and his comments which were later on in the day after the casting.
ITT: How to try and misconstrue posts of others in your favor.
If you wanna play the Nazgul card, he said he supports IdrA ESL is so unprofessional, its pretty fucking funny. Damage control failing at its best
Edit: go away nazgul, i was supposed to post first
On August 17 2010 07:42 naonao wrote: No, no you haven't. The issue we want addressed is why Idra was given that additional penalty point. The first everyone has accepted is due to not letting casters in and mostly everyone agrees that it is an appropriate action given the rules. You claim this point was awarded because of what happened on his side of the bracket(having to replay games) and not due to any other reasons. You said
1 Point Repeated Offence Unsportsmanlike conduct throughout the cup ingame against players and casters and against esl on forums
This can easily be seen here We want accountability for what it was that caused this point. And you have dodged every question that has asked for this. So until you answer this the issue will not be closed.
"IdrA then received an additional PP for his verbal abuse of both admins and fellow players. IdrA has been previously warned for his behavior in the tournament including his verbal harassment in earlier cups."
It was in the initial post. There's been numerous posts of mine and others saying those details won't be released and why. Hopefully that clears it up for you.
You know who IdrA remind me of? Ok this is just a curious analogy so no one get angry for this analogy, but I believe IdrA to esports is like Muhammad Ali to boxing.
He has undeniable world class skill. He's representing a minority in the pro gaming scene (not just Caucasians, but also the seemingly underpowered Zerg). AND... last but not least, he speaks his mind. Some may call this BM. But really, in my honest opinion, its his straightforward personality speaking out.
OK it isn't a perfect analogy but I thought I'd throw it out there lol.
Anyways, from reading the posts and the article on ESL's site, I seem to get the feel that ESL attitude toward IdrA is a result of personal reasons / anger. Maybe he insulted ESL in an inappropriate way. Maybe ESL is just abusing their power over the tournament and, whether they know it or not, are not providing optimal conditions for players. We can't truly tell because we don't know the details. But one thing is for sure - IdrA is one of eSports most charactered and skilled players, with a ton of following. I hope ESL and IdrA will work something out.
On August 17 2010 07:45 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I do not think it should be enforced in $100 open tournaments. Doing that is a mistake in itself. Open tournaments always have very little control over games because it is impossible to have referees and admins observing everything. This is understandable and acceptable and those should be the conditions to keep in mind when determining whether to hard-enforce rules.
From my experience the lack of (again understandable) moderation in open tournaments means they gather so many shitty casters that it becomes a complete clusterfuck for players, who should at that point have the right to tell all the casters to leave. I do not feel it is justified to willingly accept bad player conditions in a tournament with 400 participants and a $100 prize. IEM is much larger than some broadcast of a single game in a small qualifier and definitely didn't rely on every single game of this tournament being casted, in which case I will always side with player conditions.
And we didn't penalize him in previous $100 Cups. But as this is his 3rd $100 Cup and he continues to not follow the rules we had to step in and establish the rules considering in three weeks we will have the Group Stage with the top 16 players. This is a decision as a staff we had already made going into the event and the enforcement of this rule was something no one besides IdrA has had a problem with. Many players from South American and Korea haven't expressed the same issue nor denied casting.
Also I'd like to note IdrA never approached anyone from National ESL about the issue. Instead of agreeing to cast later matches or working with us at all he simple refused all the way along.
On August 17 2010 07:42 naonao wrote: No, no you haven't. The issue we want addressed is why Idra was given that additional penalty point. The first everyone has accepted is due to not letting casters in and mostly everyone agrees that it is an appropriate action given the rules. You claim this point was awarded because of what happened on his side of the bracket(having to replay games) and not due to any other reasons. You said
Later a separate issue happened that had nothing to do with IdrA besides the fact that he was playing on the same side of the bracket.
However this does not reflect what is shown on your website along with what your other admins stated last night. On the website it says
1 Point Repeated Offence Unsportsmanlike conduct throughout the cup ingame against players and casters and against esl on forums
This can easily be seen here We want accountability for what it was that caused this point. And you have dodged every question that has asked for this. So until you answer this the issue will not be closed.
"IdrA then received an additional PP for his verbal abuse of both admins and fellow players. IdrA has been previously warned for his behavior in the tournament including his verbal harassment in earlier cups."
It was in the initial post. There's been numerous posts of mine and others saying those details won't be released and why. Hopefully that clears it up for you.
However there is no evidence that Idra verbally abused admins and fellow players in this tournament until after the PPs were awarded. The first instance of BM i witnesssed from Idra was when he stated that the admins were fucking idiots due to him having to replay a match and this was publicized after he was awarded his PP. The only thing you have going for you that Idra actually BMed is his reputation. The fact that your not willing to disclose his BM makes it seem like there is none and your just trying to cover your ass.
On August 17 2010 07:45 sAfuRos wrote: ITT: How to try and misconstrue posts of others in your favor.
If you wanna play the Nazgul card, he said he supports IdrA ESL is so unprofessional, its pretty fucking funny. Damage control failing at its best
Edit: go away nazgul, i was supposed to post first
Wasn't misrepresenting his post. His defense of broadcasting matches is valid and was saying I agreed with it. I wasn't talking about the specific IdrA comment but the concepts he put forth in the post about streaming as a whole.
As for IdrA's specifically, I answered that just above.
No, it wasn't "seen" that way, it's explicitly what was said.
There was confusion among everyone involved, including some admins. IdrA's trip to Gamescom confused the situation further.
If you fuck up, say that you fucked up. Man up. I edited my posts to show some quotes explicitly saying that they were banning Idra. There is no confusion about what was said.
I am glad you guys went back on the decision but don't try to cover up what happened with lies.
Hell, if an admin or 2 were idiots and messed up... just say that. Say what actually happened. Just don't try to lie to minimize it.
Seriously I love the ESL, I love anyone who contributes to e-sports. But Integrity... please
So I read 15 pages and couldn't find an answer to this. Did they side step this or did I just miss it? If two of your admins say Idra's done, then a couple hours later another admin says Idra's not banned cause there was "confusion", what's stopping someone new tomorrow posting Idra's banned again cause there was more confusion today. When liquid fucked up and didn't award Artosis the win, they came out and said yeah we fucked up and here's why (running a tourney's stressful, no one was available and that's our fault, etc.) they didn't just go "yeah, 2 of our admins on separate incidents were confused and didn't mean what they typed"
On August 17 2010 06:54 midway wrote: You can accuse me of arrogance all you want and it is frustrating at lack understand of the simple point. We are doing this FOR YOU!
National ESL is forcing casting and getting people streams to watch give you a better chance to see the game we all love. I'm not trying to attack anyone or create problems. My point is simple; its in everyone's best interest to cast these matches.
.....
The goal here is to make SC2 better, more popular and increase awareness of the sport.
Nobody wants you to run a shoddy tournament that doesn't pay. Just quit and go back to CS. Let people who can actually organize and run a sc2 tournament do so. SC2 would be better and more popular with more interested people without your issues and problems and drama.
It's drama like this that makes sponsors wary of..sponsoring. It's bad organization like this that creates drama. It's not as if other people won't do sc2 and you guys are the only ones doing it. If you really cared so much, just stop and let actual competent people do it.
What I don't get you don't get this with any other pro player out there but always stuff been said about idras bm etc. Idra and people say its like its ok and stand up for him. He needs to grow up and be bit more professional and take he's temperament more seriously or he's always only ever gonna be know for throwing he's rattle outa the cot all the time.
On August 17 2010 07:50 rally_point wrote: You know who IdrA remind me of? Ok this is just a curious analogy so no one get angry for this analogy, but I believe IdrA to esports is like Muhammad Ali to boxing.
He has undeniable world class skill. He's representing a minority in the pro gaming scene (not just Caucasians, but also the seemingly underpowered Zerg). AND... last but not least, he speaks his mind. Some may call this BM. But really, in my honest opinion, its his straightforward personality speaking out.
OK it isn't a perfect analogy but I thought I'd throw it out there lol.
Anyways, from reading the posts and the article on ESL's site, I seem to get the feel that ESL attitude toward IdrA is a result of personal reasons / anger. Maybe he insulted ESL in an inappropriate way. Maybe ESL is just abusing their power over the tournament and, whether they know it or not, are not providing optimal conditions for players. We can't truly tell because we don't know the details. But one thing is for sure - IdrA is one of eSports most charactered and skilled players, with a ton of following. I hope ESL and IdrA will work something out.
Trashtalk prefight is a good thing for a sport. It's not my personal cup of tea but I know that it's mostly an act for those fighters/players doing that. It's definitely something that adds to entertainment sports such as boxing, MMA and SC. My history on Ali isn't the most informed but I do watch a lot of combat sports and it is in no way comparable to Idra's attitude. There's pre-fight trashtalk and post-fight camaraderie and respect which is exactly how it should be. These guys (afaik including Ali) will hug each other and thank each other after the match is done. If they lose they congratulate their opponent and show him their respect for outperforming him. See where this is going?
On August 17 2010 07:54 midway wrote: And we didn't penalize him in previous $100 Cups. But as this is his 3rd $100 Cup and he continues to not follow the rules we had to step in and establish the rules considering in three weeks we will have the Group Stage with the top 16 players. This is a decision as a staff we had already made going into the event and the enforcement of this rule was something no one besides IdrA has had a problem with. Many players from South American and Korea haven't expressed the same issue nor denied casting.
Also I'd like to note IdrA never approached anyone from National ESL about the issue. Instead of agreeing to cast later matches or working with us at all he simple refused all the way along.
Fair enough, was mostly just responding to the part that had my name in it. It seems like you guys had anticipated this scenario beforehand which speaks in your favor.
Most of the time if a tournament is hosted then under normal conditions they should allow a player to play without casters/obses if the lag is very bad. Playing condition should be very high on the list of things tournaments should care about. However! Tournaments do rely on broadcasts. They can suffer an occasional unforeseen lag scenario and still be fine. It really sucks if it's in the final but replays can still be used. If however lag appeared in every single game, then this tournament will lose it's right to exist because they can't broadcast anything during their promised live casting hours. Think of a 16-man invite with 5 players participating from Asia all telling the casters to leave. Tournament popularity=dead. Keep this in mind.
If, by rules, they allow a tournament to be open to players from Asia this means there is a good chance these players will claim lag in every single game, and thus they won't have a single game of the Asian players casted. If this is how it is going to be this leads to one very simple change: the exclusion of Asian players. Tournaments will realize they can't perform up to par when Asian players tell their casters to leave the games. If we keep up with the 100% absolute attitude of player always deciding this will be the end of live-broadcasted international tournaments. That is a worst case scenario for tournament host, player, and fan.
As a fan of the sport, I am only interested in who's the better player. I am totally ok with EVERY game being casted from a replay, if it means we get to see who is the more skilled player, not who has the least lag. I don't know if my opinion completely reflects the community at large but I have a feeling it's close. I think this idea that a tournament is dead if you don't have live casts is asinine.
I think fans are much more understandable then you think. Fans are the reason these tournaments are possible, and I'm pretty sure if you took a poll we would be willing to wait a little longer to watch the stream in order ensure that skill and not latency determined the results.
Don't get me wrong, live casts are fun, but if the powers at be are unwilling to allow a player to play at his best, then we can just stop calling these tournaments a form of competition.
IMO the only reason to cast live is if you are having a live event with people attending in person. Online events can easily be cast as replays (and should be imo).
It removes potential lag affecting the players, it gives the caster less things to worry about going wrong, and gives the viewer a better experience.
On August 17 2010 07:42 naonao wrote: No, no you haven't. The issue we want addressed is why Idra was given that additional penalty point. The first everyone has accepted is due to not letting casters in and mostly everyone agrees that it is an appropriate action given the rules. You claim this point was awarded because of what happened on his side of the bracket(having to replay games) and not due to any other reasons. You said
Later a separate issue happened that had nothing to do with IdrA besides the fact that he was playing on the same side of the bracket.
However this does not reflect what is shown on your website along with what your other admins stated last night. On the website it says
1 Point Repeated Offence Unsportsmanlike conduct throughout the cup ingame against players and casters and against esl on forums
This can easily be seen here We want accountability for what it was that caused this point. And you have dodged every question that has asked for this. So until you answer this the issue will not be closed.
"IdrA then received an additional PP for his verbal abuse of both admins and fellow players. IdrA has been previously warned for his behavior in the tournament including his verbal harassment in earlier cups."
It was in the initial post. There's been numerous posts of mine and others saying those details won't be released and why. Hopefully that clears it up for you.
However there is no evidence that Idra verbally abused admins and fellow players in this tournament until after the PPs were awarded. The first instance of BM i witnesssed from Idra was when he stated that the admins were fucking idiots due to him having to replay a match and this was publicized after he was awarded his PP. The only thing you have going for you that Idra actually BMed is his reputation. The fact that your not willing to disclose his BM makes it seem like there is none and your just trying to cover your ass.
Why do you what them to show evidence to you since this got nothing to do with you? Do you even know if Idra got a problem with the penalty point he got for it? Only if Idra got a problem with this should they show evidence to him.
The caster (BigT) clearly caused an issue when there wasn't one. He shouldn't abuse his friendship with an ESL admin to force someone to restart a game because he can't keep track of upcoming games himself. It really shows how childish some casters and some admins act and how overzealous they are.
Give respect to the players, if a caster misses a game because they fail to track everything then, leave the players alone.
I'm not sure what the big deal is. ESL can ask participants to dance around and pee in their pants as part of their rules if they want and ban anyone who doesn't do it. It's their tourny and their rules. They are still going to get lots of participants (even with somewhat dubious rules like forced casting).
I do think that simplifying the rules would go a long way to make things understandable and run smoother than it did last night. All I know is that there was quite a bit of waiting around.
On August 17 2010 08:10 aqui wrote: The mood of this thread is disturbing. I know the crappy part of tl, of which im a part, but this feels like something new, something worse.
Which wouldnt happen if the somebody could say something other then "I addressed everything that I am going to address, but not the part that everybody really wants to know about."
On August 17 2010 08:08 Sreypech wrote: The caster (BigT) clearly caused an issue when there wasn't one. He shouldn't abuse his friendship with an ESL admin to force someone to restart a game because he can't keep track of upcoming games himself. It really shows how childish some casters and some admins act and how overzealous they are.
Give respect to the players, if a caster misses a game because they fail to track everything then, leave the players alone.
No he didn't. He knew perfectly well when IdrA was starting and had been trying to get IdrA to add him to the game. He only asked for the restart when IdrA went on and started the game without him in clear violation of the rules, for which IdrA has been appropriately penalized.
He may get himself mixed into a lot of drama and the way he was talking to IdrA certainly didn't help anything, but he's not a big enough jackass to ask someone to restart a game just because he wasn't there when it began.
Midway, I thank you for remaining professional (I am not being sarcastic, you are holding up better than I would) despite some of the things being said, but I am curious as to whether your casters and staff are held to the same standards you hold your participants. Taken out of context or not, the things that BigT said were insulting to IdrA. I agree that two wrongs do not make a right regardless of whether that is what the particular player is known for, but professionalism is a quality to be displayed by the participants, staff, and any others participating in an event in any way. I am not questioning moral character. What you say to friends and such outside the public view is your buisiness. When a member of your administration says something like
On August 16 2010 14:03 esl-beef wrote: ShadowDrgn: Strifeco never responded to Jobless' messages. By the time we saw it, it was after two rounds had been played.
IdrA: If you don't want to play, that's fine. Your lack of respect towards casters, ESL staff, players, and sponsors makes you an insult to pro gamers. You said it best...
I hope you enjoyed you stay at National ESL's IEM, you're done for the season.
this to anyone involved with your organization there is a breakdown of policy. And if there is no breakdown of policy, one has to wonder at the quality of an organization that allows public beratement of players, regardless of whether or not such an action is actually taken (though in this case it obviously was). Calling a player an "insult to pro gamers" and a joke within the same post by a so called staff member of your organization reflects poorly upon all of you.
The chat log as posted by another member in the other thread + Show Spoiler +
On August 16 2010 17:21 aers wrote: Honestly.
[ 12:28:45 ] [ BigT ] i have [ 12:28:51 ] [ BigT ] official news as to the banning of idra! [ 12:29:16 ] [ BigT ] he received 2 points for not allowing me to cast and the other 2 points for the BM afterwards... all of which were handed down directly from me :D
[ 12:40:43 ] [ @aers ] bigt [ 12:40:49 ] [ @aers ] you went to the admins [ 12:40:50 ] [ @aers ] and whined [ 12:40:55 ] [ @aers ] that idra whouldnt let you cast his game [ 12:40:57 ] [ @aers ] because of lag [ 12:41:00 ] [ @aers ] and you dont see [ 12:41:05 ] [ @aers ] why people are a bit upset with your attitude? [ 12:41:06 ] [ @aers ] at all? [ 12:41:18 ] [ BigT ] hmm... [ 12:41:44 ] [ BigT ] i mean, i whined for a little bit because they said i was casting it [ 12:41:49 ] [ BigT ] but then i moved on to other games lol [ 12:42:14 ] [ BigT ] well depends what u describe as whining [ 12:42:20 ] [ BigT ] "wtf beef, i thought i was casting idra?" [ 12:42:22 ] [ BigT ] lol [ 12:42:27 ] [ BigT ] "am i casting or not?" [ 12:42:31 ] [ @aers ] so [ 12:42:31 ] [ BigT ] "i want to go cast other games" [ 12:42:34 ] [ @aers ] idra tells you [ 12:42:38 ] [ @aers ] "i dont want you casting because of lag" [ 12:42:40 ] [ @aers ] and you tell the admin [ 12:42:42 ] [ @aers ] "wtf am i casting idra" [ 12:42:45 ] [ @aers ] ? [ 12:42:47 ] [ @aers ] instead of [ 12:42:48 ] [ BigT ] i have no comment on the admins xD [ 12:42:51 ] [ @aers ] "idra doesnt want me to cast due to lag" [ 12:42:56 ] [ BigT ] they are just trying to do whats right
When those 2 "refusal to have a caster" points were given out did the admins even know what was going on at all?
For someone with "official" news, he sure does display a low level of professionalism.
If you want to be taken as seriously internationally as the korean programers are, changes need to be made. The word transperancy is being thrown around, and justly. With such a high profile problem, absolute transperancy is required so there is not a misconstruing of what has happened as there has been here numerous times.
You say you are doing this for us, and we really are thankful (or some of us are at least), but we do not want the international pro SC2 scene affiliated with shady decisions and unprofessional administrators.
On August 17 2010 08:08 Sreypech wrote: The caster (BigT) clearly caused an issue when there wasn't one. He shouldn't abuse his friendship with an ESL admin to force someone to restart a game because he can't keep track of upcoming games himself. It really shows how childish some casters and some admins act and how overzealous they are.
Give respect to the players, if a caster misses a game because they fail to track everything then, leave the players alone.
No he didn't. He knew perfectly well when IdrA was starting and had been trying to get IdrA to add him to the game. He only asked for the restart when IdrA went on and started the game without him in clear violation of the rules, for which IdrA has been appropriately penalized.
He may get himself mixed into a lot of drama and the way he was talking to IdrA certainly didn't help anything, but he's not a big enough jackass to ask someone to restart a game just because he wasn't there when it began.
He is a big enough jackass, if you watched his stream he kept harassing Idra then cried to an ESL admin when he didn't get his way. He doesn't act like a professional caster in anyway whatsoever. He subsequently spent the the whole game of Idra's that he did get to cast, insulting him calling for Bunny to be the Idra killer instead of just casting the game.
On August 17 2010 08:08 Sreypech wrote: The caster (BigT) clearly caused an issue when there wasn't one. He shouldn't abuse his friendship with an ESL admin to force someone to restart a game because he can't keep track of upcoming games himself. It really shows how childish some casters and some admins act and how overzealous they are.
Give respect to the players, if a caster misses a game because they fail to track everything then, leave the players alone.
No he didn't. He knew perfectly well when IdrA was starting and had been trying to get IdrA to add him to the game. He only asked for the restart when IdrA went on and started the game without him in clear violation of the rules, for which IdrA has been appropriately penalized.
He may get himself mixed into a lot of drama and the way he was talking to IdrA certainly didn't help anything, but he's not a big enough jackass to ask someone to restart a game just because he wasn't there when it began.
He is a big enough jackass, if you watched his stream he kept harassing Idra then cried to an ESL admin when he didn't get his way. He doesn't act like a professional caster in anyway whatsoever. He subsequently spent the the whole game of Idra's that he did get to cast, insulting him calling for Bunny to be the Idra killer instead of just casting the game.
That wasn't BigT being unprepared. That was IdrA ignoring the rules. I'm not defending BigT's behavior, but you're completely misrepresenting the situation.
If IdrA wants to be a top player, he's going to have to deal with the fact that people are going to cast him wherever possible.
On August 17 2010 08:08 Sreypech wrote: The caster (BigT) clearly caused an issue when there wasn't one. He shouldn't abuse his friendship with an ESL admin to force someone to restart a game because he can't keep track of upcoming games himself. It really shows how childish some casters and some admins act and how overzealous they are.
Give respect to the players, if a caster misses a game because they fail to track everything then, leave the players alone.
No he didn't. He knew perfectly well when IdrA was starting and had been trying to get IdrA to add him to the game. He only asked for the restart when IdrA went on and started the game without him in clear violation of the rules, for which IdrA has been appropriately penalized.
He may get himself mixed into a lot of drama and the way he was talking to IdrA certainly didn't help anything, but he's not a big enough jackass to ask someone to restart a game just because he wasn't there when it began.
He is a big enough jackass, if you watched his stream he kept harassing Idra then cried to an ESL admin when he didn't get his way. He doesn't act like a professional caster in anyway whatsoever. He subsequently spent the the whole game of Idra's that he did get to cast, insulting him calling for Bunny to be the Idra killer instead of just casting the game.
That wasn't BigT being unprepared. That was IdrA ignoring the rules. I'm not defending BigT's behavior, but you're completely misrepresenting the situation.
If IdrA wants to be a top player, he's going to have to deal with the fact that people are going to cast him wherever possible.
BigT was unprepared and unprofessional go read the chat logs. If he was prepared he would have talked to Idra before this, sorted it out with a real admin, and had the admin talk to Idra to make sure all the rules were understood instead of BMing Idra then making fun of him on the next game he casted of his.
On August 17 2010 08:08 Sreypech wrote: The caster (BigT) clearly caused an issue when there wasn't one. He shouldn't abuse his friendship with an ESL admin to force someone to restart a game because he can't keep track of upcoming games himself. It really shows how childish some casters and some admins act and how overzealous they are.
Give respect to the players, if a caster misses a game because they fail to track everything then, leave the players alone.
No he didn't. He knew perfectly well when IdrA was starting and had been trying to get IdrA to add him to the game. He only asked for the restart when IdrA went on and started the game without him in clear violation of the rules, for which IdrA has been appropriately penalized.
He may get himself mixed into a lot of drama and the way he was talking to IdrA certainly didn't help anything, but he's not a big enough jackass to ask someone to restart a game just because he wasn't there when it began.
He is a big enough jackass, if you watched his stream he kept harassing Idra then cried to an ESL admin when he didn't get his way. He doesn't act like a professional caster in anyway whatsoever. He subsequently spent the the whole game of Idra's that he did get to cast, insulting him calling for Bunny to be the Idra killer instead of just casting the game.
That wasn't BigT being unprepared. That was IdrA ignoring the rules. I'm not defending BigT's behavior, but you're completely misrepresenting the situation.
If IdrA wants to be a top player, he's going to have to deal with the fact that people are going to cast him wherever possible.
I'm an awful player and I wouldn't let BigT cast my games honestly. This guy is truly awful and this is the second time in as many weeks he has been in the middle of this type of situation. If he wants to spend his casts insulting players he can move on the youtube. IMO he has no place on TL and hasn't since the HuK thing.
On August 17 2010 05:46 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Harassment out of the game is as serious as in-game. The situation is still that you're insulting referees or admins, something which under no conditions should be allowed. Wherever it happens it has the same impact and the same result of undermining ones authority. If you want to play in a tournament you are to treat the referees with respect. Mistakes do happen, this is something people need to learn to respect as well. If everyone insulted here on TL every time a mistake was made nobody on the TL staff would still be working here. Most of us are adults and most of us would like to see StarCraft flourish as a professional sport. You can't go and insult people every time they make a stupid decision.
I haven't seen quotes on the exact situation, there are of course exceptions such as where the referee is taunting or downright insulting the player himself so my post does not specifically apply to this situation. It's simply meant to show my opinion on situations like this in a more general setting.
About casters being in games there are many things to consider. First of all the rule that a player must allow a caster is a good rule. The trick is in the enforcement of it. This is a good rule because players are unpredictable and you are dealing with 400 unpredictable potentially loose cannons. An organization must at all time keep the power of deciding whether people should be allowed to watch in their own hands. sometimes players are reasonable and only complain when there is lag, other times players behave like kids and do unreasonable things such as complaining about lag when there is none, simply for the fact that they are tilted or dislike a certain obs or caster. Tournament rules have to be made in such a manner that they account for the worst possible situation. Then when situations arise a tournament organizer may opt not to apply the rules because he feels this is more fair.
So when you establish the original rule about players being forced to allow casters is a good one we arrive at the core of the problem in this tournament. That is a player with a subjectively bad attitude being faced with a potentially unreasonable referee who can refer to the rules to protect himself. This all could have been avoided if players would simply treat people with more respect. That does not mean he was wrong in his complaints at all do not misunderstand my point, but for large organizations such as the ESL it is very hard to completely control every single link in their company structure. In this giant of an organization you are basically guaranteed people are going to make mistakes and if players don't care about being decent others they should start caring about being decent in order to help themselves.
So well thought out, I am in complete awe.
All of this is perfectly true, and especially important and good because it applies to a general situation.
I wish TL wasn't so rampant with sycophancy, it seems to cloud a lot of people's judgment.
I wanna thank you for your patience and professionalism dealing with this issue and the public here at TL. I understand it's impossible to please everyone, and it could be extremely frustrating trying to do so but, in my opinion, you have manned up and admited that mistakes were made and that you guys are trying make things right, now and in the future.
I have a few questions I was hoping you could answer.
1) Can you elaborate a little bit more on how the confusion came about with the "Idra is banned, idra isn't banned" fiasco? More specificaly, was it a snap call by an admin which was overturned after further investigation? if so, what changes will ESL make to avoid these problems in the future?
2) Have your views changed on having "volunteer" casters. As you have informed us, BigT approached ESL and asked to be a caster for the tournament. Unfortunately a lot of the drama seems to be focused on BigT as his role was recognized as an "official" caster for ESL. In the future, do you plan on continuing with this format? Will rules and guidlines be established for casters? Are you going to drop the entire volunteer caster plans and move towards another direction?
On August 17 2010 08:32 mmdmmd wrote: I don' think Idra will ever get a sponsor.
Whether he is faking it or not, NO sponsor in the world will want to link their product/service with a personality like his.
CJ Entus. IdrA is involved in many tournys, events, drama, etc. That's exactly what a lot of sponsors would want, oh and he's actually pretty good at the game as well.
On August 17 2010 08:32 mmdmmd wrote: I don' think Idra will ever get a sponsor.
Whether he is faking it or not, NO sponsor in the world will want to link their product/service with a personality like his.
You do realize he is already on a pro team right? Ever hear of John Mcenroe, or how about the term "any publicity is good publicity"?
IdrA can BM all day long and it wont bother me. It's part of his personality, love it or leave it. As long as he is still entertaining to watch, and read about, I'm going to follow him.
How many other Pro Gamers get weekly threads about them here? How many other Pro Gamers are becoming such a house hold name? You may not like him, but marketing wise, Idra is a dream.
On August 17 2010 05:46 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Harassment out of the game is as serious as in-game. The situation is still that you're insulting referees or admins, something which under no conditions should be allowed. Wherever it happens it has the same impact and the same result of undermining ones authority. If you want to play in a tournament you are to treat the referees with respect. Mistakes do happen, this is something people need to learn to respect as well. If everyone here on TL insulted us every time a mistake was made nobody on the TL staff would still be working here. Most of us are adults and most of us would like to see StarCraft flourish as a professional sport. You can't go and insult people every time they make a stupid decision.
I haven't seen quotes on the exact situation, there are of course exceptions such as where the referee is taunting or downright insulting the player himself so my post does not specifically apply to this situation. It's simply meant to show my opinion on situations like this in a more general setting.
About casters being in games there are many things to consider. First of all the rule that a player must allow a caster is a good rule. The trick is in the enforcement of it. This is a good rule because players are unpredictable and you are dealing with 400 unpredictable potentially loose cannons. An organization must at all time keep the power of deciding whether people should be allowed to watch in their own hands. sometimes players are reasonable and only complain when there is lag, other times players behave like kids and do unreasonable things such as complaining about lag when there is none, simply for the fact that they are tilted or dislike a certain obs or caster. Tournament rules have to be made in such a manner that they account for the worst possible situation. Then when situations arise a tournament organizer may opt not to apply the rules because he feels this is more fair.
So when you establish the original rule about players being forced to allow casters is a good one we arrive at the core of the problem in this tournament. That is a player with a subjectively bad attitude being faced with a potentially unreasonable referee who can refer to the rules to protect himself. This all could have been avoided if players would simply treat people with more respect. That does not mean he was wrong in his complaints at all do not misunderstand my point, but for large organizations such as the ESL it is very hard to completely control every single link in their company structure. In this giant of an organization you are basically guaranteed people are going to make mistakes and if players don't care about being decent others they should start caring about being decent in order to help themselves.
finally a man of reason who sees this objective, thanks naz.
Thanks for the clarification of what happened.. However I do side with IdrA and say its ludicrous to force casting. If its in your rules, its in your rules.
On August 17 2010 08:41 deViation- wrote: lol, they are going down way too hard on idra...
they fucked up with the whole brackets
The funniest thing about this is, Idra's rep is basically unharmed by this. It's just "oh Idra BM no biggie" but ESL's rep is plummeting.
I really don't think its all plummeting so much. So tell me guys what would happen to idra if he had hes same shitty attitude and bm in kespa run leagues?
On August 17 2010 08:32 mmdmmd wrote: I don' think Idra will ever get a sponsor.
Whether he is faking it or not, NO sponsor in the world will want to link their product/service with a personality like his.
You do realize he is already on a pro team right? Ever hear of John Mcenroe, or how about the term "any publicity is good publicity"?
IdrA can BM all day long and it wont bother me. It's part of his personality, love it or leave it. As long as he is still entertaining to watch, and read about, I'm going to follow him.
How many other Pro Gamers get weekly threads about them here? How many other Pro Gamers are becoming such a house hold name? You may not like him, but marketing wise, Idra is a dream.
Then according to your theory, every mass murderer should be a marketing dream? Because a lot of them are the most talked about person in history, even years after their crime.
The first task of any organization should be to set goals for the team. By determining the success criteria, you create a set of expectations that everyone knows. The more public you make your success criteria, the more "transparent" you are. Once you have set the criteria for success, you can create rules for your organization to operate in order to achieve that criteria.
Example: (not factual)
IEM is an organization with the goal to lead e-sports broadcasting throughout North America and Europe by providing an exciting product to a large number of people.
How do you get there? Take into account the scope and resources available. IEM needs to find out how many tournaments they can host a year, who is available to run which tournaments, how much it will cost, how they're going to provide streaming, who is going to cast those games, etc etc etc.
Each one of those smaller "projects" needs to be managed. What is a success for "How much will it cost to provide this service?"
Once they figure out all that, they can use that criteria to create rules for their employees to follow that will allow them to hit their goals if followed. It's not up to us to let them know how to run things. They should be following their own defined success criteria. It is our job to let them know if their operating procedures match what we expect from an e-sports organization. We let them know this by tuning into their broadcasts, participating in their products, and other generalized feedback methods.
In almost all cases, organizations will run into trouble when those top objectives are not communicated properly down to the necessary people. In this case, it may not have been laid out plainly to the participants that they must accept a streamer in their games. If it was laid out, then IdrA should have allowed BigT to cast if BigT was a caster for the tournament.
I don't think everyone here has all of the information, and I don't think we should expect to get it. The issue that I have is that people are taking small tidbits and trying to piece the puzzle together. If all the parties want to come clean and fully explain the situation to appease people, it might help.. might not. In the meantime, though, everyone is going to have to choose whether to be satisfied with the decisions made by IEM.
If you disagree with how they handled this, don't use their products. I think Nazgul probably did the best job in the thread explaining the pros and cons of the situation, but I think that everyone involved needs to get a little more perspective on just how much information you don't know. I don't like BigT's casting style, but I don't think this guy is trying to sabotage tournaments either. I'm not going to spend my time trying to get him banned from casting, I'm just not going to watch his stream.
It's good to see an organization with at least some balls to spank a spoiled little girl on the bottom. If Idra wants to be a "pro" gamer, he needs to learn what that word means, which entails professionalism and mental development past that of a 12 year old.
I wanna thank you for your patience and professionalism dealing with this issue and the public here at TL. I understand it's impossible to please everyone, and it could be extremely frustrating trying to do so but, in my opinion, you have manned up and admited that mistakes were made and that you guys are trying make things right, now and in the future.
I have a few questions I was hoping you could answer.
1) Can you elaborate a little bit more on how the confusion came about with the "Idra is banned, idra isn't banned" fiasco? More specificaly, was it a snap call by an admin which was overturned after further investigation? if so, what changes will ESL make to avoid these problems in the future?
2) Have your views changed on having "volunteer" casters. As you have informed us, BigT approached ESL and asked to be a caster for the tournament. Unfortunately a lot of the drama seems to be focused on BigT as his role was recognized as an "official" caster for ESL. In the future, do you plan on continuing with this format? Will rules and guidlines be established for casters? Are you going to drop the entire volunteer caster plans and move towards another direction?
3) What's your stance on Roe vs Wade?
1) We looked into the issue and we have spoken to the admin(s) involved. The big issue is just that one something happens everyone jumps to conclusions. Admins are susceptible to it just as well as fans. IdrA is a big name player and him being banned can be a big story. As a league we will do a better job of making sure we final and public decisions when we are ready, as we have done today.
2) This is an evolving issue. Is no casting better then "volunteer" casting? This is a question we will have to continue to answer but don't have the answer to right now. As we are a part of the community you will be a part of this discussion. My personal feeling is that we need to find people we are able and willing to cast because without some sort of public viewing its hard for people to get excited and involved in the future of SC2 as eSport.
3) I'm not against abortion but I hate hearing people use it as a form of birth control. But as a personal preference on most rights (in the USA), I prefer to not tell others what to do in their own life (be that religion, politics, guns rights etc).
I bet you weren't expecting a real answer to that third one!
On August 17 2010 08:32 mmdmmd wrote: I don' think Idra will ever get a sponsor.
Whether he is faking it or not, NO sponsor in the world will want to link their product/service with a personality like his.
You do realize he is already on a pro team right? Ever hear of John Mcenroe, or how about the term "any publicity is good publicity"?
IdrA can BM all day long and it wont bother me. It's part of his personality, love it or leave it. As long as he is still entertaining to watch, and read about, I'm going to follow him.
How many other Pro Gamers get weekly threads about them here? How many other Pro Gamers are becoming such a house hold name? You may not like him, but marketing wise, Idra is a dream.
Then according to your theory, every mass murderer should be a marketing dream? Because a lot of them are the most talked about person in history, even years after their crime.
Like you say, "any publicity is good publicity"?
Hahaha... really? mass murderer is the same as BM? It's a common term in PR that even if you get bad press, you are getting press.
That being said, if say a mass murderer was some how affliated with your website and he was on the news... guess what? Your web site is going to see an increase in traffic. So in a way, yes even horrible serial killers can be marketed in one way or another.
Can someone please close this? The discussion is going way out of hand.
Summary: The admins make a mistake and force idra to play his matches again. Idra oblieges but insults the admins. the admins react to this (and the fact idra refuses streaming) with some penalty points because they don't want to disqualify him right away.
I wanna thank you for your patience and professionalism dealing with this issue and the public here at TL. I understand it's impossible to please everyone, and it could be extremely frustrating trying to do so but, in my opinion, you have manned up and admited that mistakes were made and that you guys are trying make things right, now and in the future.
I have a few questions I was hoping you could answer.
1) Can you elaborate a little bit more on how the confusion came about with the "Idra is banned, idra isn't banned" fiasco? More specificaly, was it a snap call by an admin which was overturned after further investigation? if so, what changes will ESL make to avoid these problems in the future?
2) Have your views changed on having "volunteer" casters. As you have informed us, BigT approached ESL and asked to be a caster for the tournament. Unfortunately a lot of the drama seems to be focused on BigT as his role was recognized as an "official" caster for ESL. In the future, do you plan on continuing with this format? Will rules and guidlines be established for casters? Are you going to drop the entire volunteer caster plans and move towards another direction?
3) What's your stance on Roe vs Wade?
1) We looked into the issue and we have spoken to the admin(s) involved. The big issue is just that one something happens everyone jumps to conclusions. Admins are susceptible to it just as well as fans. IdrA is a big name player and him being banned can be a big story. As a league we will do a better job of making sure we final and public decisions when we are ready, as we have done today.
2) This is an evolving issue. Is no casting better then "volunteer" casting? This is a question we will have to continue to answer but don't have the answer to right now. As we are a part of the community you will be a part of this discussion. My personal feeling is that we need to find people we are able and willing to cast because without some sort of public viewing its hard for people to get excited and involved in the future of SC2 as eSport.
3) I'm not against abortion but I hate hearing people use it as a form of birth control. But as a personal preference on most rights (in the USA), I prefer to not tell others what to do in their own life (be that religion, politics, guns rights etc).
I bet you weren't expecting a real answer to that third one!
I wanna thank you for your patience and professionalism dealing with this issue and the public here at TL. I understand it's impossible to please everyone, and it could be extremely frustrating trying to do so but, in my opinion, you have manned up and admited that mistakes were made and that you guys are trying make things right, now and in the future.
I have a few questions I was hoping you could answer.
1) Can you elaborate a little bit more on how the confusion came about with the "Idra is banned, idra isn't banned" fiasco? More specificaly, was it a snap call by an admin which was overturned after further investigation? if so, what changes will ESL make to avoid these problems in the future?
2) Have your views changed on having "volunteer" casters. As you have informed us, BigT approached ESL and asked to be a caster for the tournament. Unfortunately a lot of the drama seems to be focused on BigT as his role was recognized as an "official" caster for ESL. In the future, do you plan on continuing with this format? Will rules and guidlines be established for casters? Are you going to drop the entire volunteer caster plans and move towards another direction?
3) What's your stance on Roe vs Wade?
1) We looked into the issue and we have spoken to the admin(s) involved. The big issue is just that one something happens everyone jumps to conclusions. Admins are susceptible to it just as well as fans. IdrA is a big name player and him being banned can be a big story. As a league we will do a better job of making sure we final and public decisions when we are ready, as we have done today.
2) This is an evolving issue. Is no casting better then "volunteer" casting? This is a question we will have to continue to answer but don't have the answer to right now. As we are a part of the community you will be a part of this discussion. My personal feeling is that we need to find people we are able and willing to cast because without some sort of public viewing its hard for people to get excited and involved in the future of SC2 as eSport.
3) I'm not against abortion but I hate hearing people use it as a form of birth control. But as a personal preference on most rights (in the USA), I prefer to not tell others what to do in their own life (be that religion, politics, guns rights etc).
I bet you weren't expecting a real answer to that third one!
You didn't answer his first question. At all.
Actually he did...
"everyone jumps to conclusions. Admins are susceptible to it just as well as fans."
"as a league we will do a better job of making sure we final and public decisions when we are ready."
That pretty much answers the first question without going into detail and he already said he wouldn't disclose specific information.
On August 17 2010 09:05 coma wrote: Can someone please close this? The discussion is going way out of hand.
Summary: The admins make a mistake and force idra to play his matches again. Idra oblieges but insults the admins. the admins react to this (and the fact idra refuses streaming) with some penalty points because they don't want to disqualify him right away.
Now we're at mass murderer discussions.
not accurate at all i suggest you go read a little bit more of it
I wanna thank you for your patience and professionalism dealing with this issue and the public here at TL. I understand it's impossible to please everyone, and it could be extremely frustrating trying to do so but, in my opinion, you have manned up and admited that mistakes were made and that you guys are trying make things right, now and in the future.
I have a few questions I was hoping you could answer.
1) Can you elaborate a little bit more on how the confusion came about with the "Idra is banned, idra isn't banned" fiasco? More specificaly, was it a snap call by an admin which was overturned after further investigation? if so, what changes will ESL make to avoid these problems in the future?
2) Have your views changed on having "volunteer" casters. As you have informed us, BigT approached ESL and asked to be a caster for the tournament. Unfortunately a lot of the drama seems to be focused on BigT as his role was recognized as an "official" caster for ESL. In the future, do you plan on continuing with this format? Will rules and guidlines be established for casters? Are you going to drop the entire volunteer caster plans and move towards another direction?
3) What's your stance on Roe vs Wade?
1) We looked into the issue and we have spoken to the admin(s) involved. The big issue is just that one something happens everyone jumps to conclusions. Admins are susceptible to it just as well as fans. IdrA is a big name player and him being banned can be a big story. As a league we will do a better job of making sure we final and public decisions when we are ready, as we have done today.
2) This is an evolving issue. Is no casting better then "volunteer" casting? This is a question we will have to continue to answer but don't have the answer to right now. As we are a part of the community you will be a part of this discussion. My personal feeling is that we need to find people we are able and willing to cast because without some sort of public viewing its hard for people to get excited and involved in the future of SC2 as eSport.
3) I'm not against abortion but I hate hearing people use it as a form of birth control. But as a personal preference on most rights (in the USA), I prefer to not tell others what to do in their own life (be that religion, politics, guns rights etc).
I bet you weren't expecting a real answer to that third one!
You didn't answer his first question. At all.
ya he sure did, everyone on their admin heard thta idra bmed and stuff and knowing his rep they thought they deserved the ban before looking ath the whole story. they jumped to that conclusion and after that they reverted the ban after his actions were reviewed. it's not like they were bing as holes on purpose or nothing. at least that's what i got from reading his response o_o
On August 17 2010 08:50 divertiti wrote: It's good to see an organization with at least some balls to spank a spoiled little girl on the bottom. If Idra wants to be a "pro" gamer, he needs to learn what that word means, which entails professionalism and mental development past that of a 12 year old.
There's a difference between being a murderer and being a player who doesn't always show the greatest manners. Like in the football world Michael Vick lost a lot of respect from people after the dog fighting charade from actual violence, but a lot of players speak ill of others and no one turns there head. Maybe the same could be said of bands, I've heard Metallica doesn't have good personalities either but they're still popular and successful.
Edit: Meant to quote the post linking IdrA to a mass murderer.
wow, its interesting to read all this to say the least. Starcraft really has a mature community. Issues like this are handled like they should be. You would dream all of the world issues would be cared by 'us'.
When I was on the stream last night, watching BigT I saw the problem arise. One of the few problems that hasn't really been brought up is the caster here. BigT is popular among some players. In some games the IEM official cast crew was even kicked by the players. BigT than had the sole right of casting.
The solution would be to control these self-exclaimed casters.Its not that I don't like casters like BigT. Don't get me wrong, they too contribute to the community. But I do think that ESL staff should be aware of 3rd party casters. Maybe make some rules for them too? It was clear for everyone on the stream that the players (IdrA), referee (Beef) and the caster (BigT) didn't really know what to do. This is a problem for a organization as ESL. especially when there are 3k people watching!
IdrA was the only gamer in the tournament that seemed to get ridiculed from both casters on the only day I viewed (group B qualifiers I believe?). BigT laughed and acted like a snarky child when he saw IdrA lost, and the gosugamers commentator was probably worse. As a viewer, I just decided to not listen to these commentators again -- they were the most childish of the all the 10+ SC commentators I've listened to. Could you imagine an OSL commentator smirking with glee at the elimination of a pro gamer?
As a player with IdrA's prospects, you have to respect IdrA's anger at the organization that allowed this to occur. The only thing I regret is he hasn't excused himself from the tournament barring changes in staff standards. Bad volunteers can and should be let go.
On August 17 2010 09:56 akomatic wrote: IdrA was the only gamer in the tournament that seemed to get ridiculed from both casters on the only day I viewed
Do you blame them?
Hes a bad manner kid, sure hes real good but doesn't stop the fact he acts like a 12 yr spoiled brat that looks like a homeless harry potter
If a caster is popular with players, then great for him. However, that doesn't mean that he can force his way into a player's game, UNLESS he has official status from the tourney admin.
If a player MUST take on a caster, then the tourney admins should be responsible for that caster. I don't like how midway is distancing ESL from BigT, while having required Idra to be casted by BigT. Oh well. As I said before, admins should just publish a short list of 'official' casters. Then there is no ambiguity.
2) This is an evolving issue. Is no casting better then "volunteer" casting? This is a question we will have to continue to answer but don't have the answer to right now. As we are a part of the community you will be a part of this discussion. My personal feeling is that we need to find people we are able and willing to cast because without some sort of public viewing its hard for people to get excited and involved in the future of SC2 as eSport.
If your intention is to build interest in SC2 as an esport having this guy cast is detrimental to this goal. He constantly misses important moments (missing important battles for stuff like watching a Missile Turret build) and manages to look really unprofessional by allowing people to message him constantly in the middle of a game. I would rather have replays then let this be the first experience someone has with Esports. There are quite a few experienced named casters out there who would probably enjoy casting this event if they could manage the time to do so, I would much rather see them.
Oh yeah he was getting constant messages. Dude, just set yourself to busy, damn. I don't want to look at the message boxes, which have sometimes completely made you lose your train of thought (if any).
Casters can bring the latency levels way up too. I don't want 7 people watching just to have the match quality suffer as the result.
On August 17 2010 10:12 Iggyhopper wrote: Oh yeah he was getting constant messages. Dude, just set yourself to busy, damn. I don't want to look at the message boxes, which have sometimes completely made you lose your train of thought (if any).
Casters can bring the latency levels way up too. I don't want 7 people watching just to have the match quality suffer as the result.
On August 17 2010 10:12 Iggyhopper wrote: Oh yeah he was getting constant messages. Dude, just set yourself to busy, damn. I don't want to look at the message boxes, which have sometimes completely made you lose your train of thought (if any).
Casters can bring the latency levels way up too. I don't want 7 people watching just to have the match quality suffer as the result.
BigT should have gotten 10+ PP for ruining the integrity of his cast by messaging HuK the builds his opponent did during a BO-X in Gosucup. Then 2 more PP for 'verbal abuse of players and admin' that I have heard from him over and over. (Mostly directed at Idra, but there have been others)
Or you should just get rid of him& ask one of the better casters to do it instead.
Oh and make sure your official post isn't misstating facts & leaving things out, as Travis detailed on the first page.
I live in Australia. And even I've heard through our own community that this cup was an absolute joke. Even foreign players that live / reside in the US were not aloud to play unless they had citizenship?
But fucking 3 cheers for Idra. I don't know about you but the pro player has priority over the shit caster.. If a player is complaining of latency issues made worse by having casters / spectators.. Any DECENT organization would remove that issue so the player could perform as unrestricted as possible.
Whats wrong with casting replays?
And I know its been stated a million times... but.. BigT? Wow.
20 pages. Come on Midway, address the issue raised on the very first page:
On August 17 2010 04:31 Mateo0 wrote: Is there rules preventing the said caster (BigT) to go trolling the player(Idra) before asking to cast his games?
Your casters and admins behaved unprofessionally. It is not competitor 'bad manner' that trawls the good name of esports through the mud. It is your poor conduct.
what if Spain and Netherlands arranged to play the world cup finals in a remote location, with no spectators, no refs, and have the re-run broadcasted to the public hours after?
Spectating live is always going to be part of any competition... Casting old replays is not entertaining unless for the die-hard fans. It's the same reason the koreans go through all the trouble of making sound-proof booths and arenas, rather than giving the audience a pre-recorded game.
For the future it seems like the best solution is to clearly explain to the gamers that they must IMMEDIATELY upload their replay after each individual game so it can then be casted. This will also serve as a built in anti-cheat measure so players can't listen to the stream.
and to those getting all fired up at ESL.. you're pretty funny. Why don't you go start your own league/tournament and we'll continue this discussion in a few years or so? I'm sure you're going to be much more successful since ESL are so "unprofessional, no integrity, going to fail, blah blah.."
Seems to me you are biting the hand that feeds you. It's like you completely forget about all the money and time the organizers put into the game the moment they ban a player who's nuts you are riding on.
On August 17 2010 10:57 wxwx wrote: what if Spain and Netherlands arranged to play the world cup finals in a remote location, with no spectators, no refs, and have the re-run broadcasted to the public hours after?
Spectating live is always going to be part of any competition... Casting old replays is not entertaining unless for the die-hard fans. It's the same reason the koreans go through all the trouble of making sound-proof booths and arenas, rather than giving the audience a pre-recorded game.
Except... Spain and Netherlands don't have lag caused by people watching. Same with BW. Lag completely ruins a game, I don't know about you but I'd rather watch a replay the day after then watch the live game but have both players play sub-par because of lag. Plus they don't disclose the results before the casting, so it really makes no difference to you when the game was played.
Seriously, when are tournies going to learn that BigT shouldn't be casting? IdrA deserves some PP for his BM but he's a player that has no affiliation with the tournament organization. I don't care too much about live casting vs replays (either way there's still a good chance bnet2.0 will lag during the match) but if you're going to force casters into matches then they should be considered staff of the tournament and all staff should be held to a higher standard than the players.
There's zero excuse for BigT telling HuK another players strats in previous matches. There's zero excuse for BigT to lag a match while he alt tabs to fix his stream while there's other casters in the match that can cast it if he just leaves and then fixes his shit. There's zero excuse for BigT to be berating a player.
On August 17 2010 11:06 wxwx wrote: and to those getting all fired up at ESL.. you're pretty funny. Why don't you go start your own league/tournament and we'll continue this discussion in a few years or so? I'm sure you're going to be much more successful since ESL are so "unprofessional, no integrity, going to fail, blah blah.."
Seems to me you are biting the hand that feeds you. It's like you completely forget about all the money and time the organizers put into the game the moment they ban a player who's nuts you are riding on.
Unfortunately for your retarded troll post, their tournament ain't shit without the players people want to watch.
This isn't the ONLY organization that will be casting, and from what I've seen, we can all do without them being around, anyway. There will be much better ones that run smoothly and have professional commentators and administrators.
BigT is a tard. He shouldn't be casting an idra game. With the amount of flak that it was going to cause IdrA, ESL should of been reasonable to not assign a caster that has badmouthed IdrA so vehemently.
In my opinion both parties share somewhat equal faults in the recent events.
IdrA is undoubtably at fault for being unprofessional and loosing his cool. Any sort of attack on a sporting official, be it physical or verbal, should always result in some form of a penalty. You don't see players arguing, bad-mouthing, or insulting officials without receiving a penalty point, red/yellow card, ejection, etc...
If SC2 is to have a chance at becoming a reputable and Professional "Sport" I think the rules need to be enforced on a equal, reasonable, impartial, and most importantly nondiscriminatory scale. If the BM IdrA used towards BigT was in any way a form of verbal harassment than the Penalty Points he received are completely fair and of merit, DESPITE any of the actions BigT may have taken to cause such an outburst. If any and every player has the privilege or option of arguing with and in extreme cases harassing officials the exact reason for having officials present is completely undermined.
IN A SIDE NOTE
I do not find it hard to believe that the Caster may have sparked or caused much of the negativity involved in this situation.
If this is the case I believe that an internal investigation needs to take place and some sort of reprimand should be given to the other party at fault (BigT) If a sporting official makes a bad call in other professional sports the call (even if it is blatantly wrong) must be followed for the sake of fairness. But I can guarantee you the official that made the bad call will receive some sort of negative feedback.
I think this brings to light the need for a higher standard level in quality from both players and officials.
Players need to cut out all of the BM and snide remarks they make at each other, or at least durring broadcast events.
"you're a joke" - Silver vs IdrA IEM Cup I
Besides the initial GLHF the only other text that should be allowed is GG.
And do not misunderstand my overly-critical review on IdrA I'm sure there are many other players that have on occasion used BM, I am simply using him as an example because of his general blatant use of BM.
BM can be amusing but the cases are few and far between, I think it would give better light towards SC2 as a professional trade if BM was made an outright penalty.
In addition to a change in the professionalism in players...
I think the officials need to take some initiative and show more professionalism in both their casting and officiating.
There have been multiple occasions where I have found myself listening to casters ramble about topics of complete irrelevance while I wait 20+ minutes for the officials to figure out how to find and start a match with all of the necessary members.
I understand that game coverage of SC2 is still in its infancy and that there are lots of bugs and hiccups that need to be worked out and that the current state of battle.net isn't very conducive towards setting up live cast games efficiently,but at the same time these are issues that expect you to figure out prior to the actual tournament. Finding a way to set up the tournament so that there is little or very minimal downtime is one thing I expect in the cast. Having to listen to casters talk about what they ate for dinner, how much they love twilight, and watching youtube videos not only take away from the professionalism of the sport its just plain annoying and a waste of my time.
And please don't take this the wrong way, I <3 all the casters and love their sense of humor but at the same time when I tune in to watch qualifiers for some big tournament that has 20+ players playing I expect to be primarily watching matches. This of course is not the fault of the casters but more the fault of the officials arranging the tournament.
Basically every point I've made can be summed up with this short little phrase.
Act Professional
Players play in a professional manner. Casters cast as if you were casting in front of a live audience of thousands (Cuz you kinda are). Officials officiate as if you were officiating a professional sport.
and of course Tournament presenters and coordinators please, please, please put a little more effort into making things run smoother. A little planning can go a long way towards helping make sure these type of situations don't happen again.
Quick question, is BigT going to get penalty points too? Because his behavior was arguably worse than Idra's. Discussing strategy with players in the tournament is taboo and destroys any integrity of the event. Calling yourself the "official tournament caster" then proceeding to bash and BM almost every well-known player is revolting.
On August 17 2010 11:04 Jonoman92 wrote: For the future it seems like the best solution is to clearly explain to the gamers that they must IMMEDIATELY upload their replay after each individual game so it can then be casted. This will also serve as a built in anti-cheat measure so players can't listen to the stream.
I like this solution a lot.
On another note, BigT is an idiot and the fact that he's still "employed" at all shows the clear immaturity of these tournament organizers. If anyone did what he's done in pro football they'd be gone in a heartbeat.
midway I don't think you understand. Most of us at TL are players and understand lag problems. If it's causing problems then cast the replays. Most of us would rather see good replays or bad live games.
There are wayyyyyyyyyyyy too many people giving their 2c and making judgments when they obviously weren't even watching when it happened. 99% of people here have gotten the sequence of events completely wrong. Idra didn't refuse casting because BigT was "bming" him. He immediately refused casting BEFORE ANY GAMES WERE PLAYED when BigT first messaged him saying "hey I'm going to be casting your game if that's alright" or something to that effect. After this, BigT tried to joke around with him to lighten him up. This is the alleged "bm". Obviously this was a mistake since everybody knows that that is never going to work. This was stupid of BigT to do and only fanned the flames a little bit (although I doubt Idra really gives a shit about BigT's dumb jokes to him). Finally, BigT only called Idra an "a-move zerg" as a JOKE at the end of one of Idra's games where Idra roflstomped his opponent and seemingly a-moved to victory. Note that this innocuous comment occurred AFTER the Idra had already refused to be casted but was forced to be casted anyway.
Finally, I agree with a lot of the criticisms of BigT to an extent. I frequently facepalm at some of the things he does and says. To be honest though, half the time people won't tell him what he should do or what the fuck is going on, so he then exercises his own judgment (which is pretty bad) in a situation he shouldn't even be in.
Like I said, anything worth saying has been said. I doubt there will be any direct addressing of BigT. He simply won't be used in the next tourny or he'll get a behind the scenes talk on how to handle future situations. Honestly it's poor behavior from almost everyone. Idra knew the rules (even if they are silly rules) yet disobeyed (even if he had somewhat of a legitimate reason, lag). BigT reacted not so well. Idra reacted not so well. What else is there to say. Obviously some things will be adjusted be it the rules, obsing/reffing, etc. Lots of ppl are blowing this way out of proportion.
Except this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the subject of this topic.
You should also note that midway doesnt owe anyone an explanation about BigT's behavior since BigT is not directly affiliated with them (note the word directly, he did cast for them, but hes not directly part of the organization).
Im guessing midway wont use him again, but that should be left for the discussion between him and BigT, he doesnt owe anyone anything on that particular matter.
On August 17 2010 13:43 waxypants wrote: There are wayyyyyyyyyyyy too many people giving their 2c and making judgments when they obviously weren't even watching when it happened. 99% of people here have gotten the sequence of events completely wrong. Idra didn't refuse casting because BigT was "bming" him. He immediately refused casting BEFORE ANY GAMES WERE PLAYED when BigT first messaged him saying "hey I'm going to be casting your game if that's alright" or something to that effect. After this, BigT tried to joke around with him to lighten him up. This is the alleged "bm". Obviously this was a mistake since everybody knows that that is never going to work. This was stupid of BigT to do and only fanned the flames a little bit (although I doubt Idra really gives a shit about BigT's dumb jokes to him). Finally, BigT only called Idra an "a-move zerg" as a JOKE at the end of one of Idra's games where Idra roflstomped his opponent and seemingly a-moved to victory. Note that this innocuous comment occurred AFTER the Idra had already refused to be casted but was forced to be casted anyway.
Finally, I agree with a lot of the criticisms of BigT to an extent. I frequently facepalm at some of the things he does and says. To be honest though, half the time people won't tell him what he should do or what the fuck is going on, so he then exercises his own judgment (which is pretty bad) in a situation he shouldn't even be in.
you have it wrong on the second sentence. nice try though
I might be in the minority but I think its kind of sad that ESL is getting flamed so hard over this. If this is the same midway that ran gotfrag I'd definitely take his word over Idra's. The guy did a ton for the CS community way back when and I've never seen him act unprofessionally in all the years I've been to the site and read his articles, etc. So I have no doubt that he's trying his best to put on a good tourney. Then you have Idra who's been known as a BM player ever since he started playing SC...is it that hard to imagine him flaming admins/casters?
On August 17 2010 13:43 waxypants wrote: There are wayyyyyyyyyyyy too many people giving their 2c and making judgments when they obviously weren't even watching when it happened. 99% of people here have gotten the sequence of events completely wrong. Idra didn't refuse casting because BigT was "bming" him. He immediately refused casting BEFORE ANY GAMES WERE PLAYED when BigT first messaged him saying "hey I'm going to be casting your game if that's alright" or something to that effect. After this, BigT tried to joke around with him to lighten him up. This is the alleged "bm". Obviously this was a mistake since everybody knows that that is never going to work. This was stupid of BigT to do and only fanned the flames a little bit (although I doubt Idra really gives a shit about BigT's dumb jokes to him). Finally, BigT only called Idra an "a-move zerg" as a JOKE at the end of one of Idra's games where Idra roflstomped his opponent and seemingly a-moved to victory. Note that this innocuous comment occurred AFTER the Idra had already refused to be casted but was forced to be casted anyway.
Finally, I agree with a lot of the criticisms of BigT to an extent. I frequently facepalm at some of the things he does and says. To be honest though, half the time people won't tell him what he should do or what the fuck is going on, so he then exercises his own judgment (which is pretty bad) in a situation he shouldn't even be in.
you have it wrong on the second sentence. nice try though
Are you referring to "99%"? Nice one. Obvious exaggeration, but a ton of people here obviously didn't see what happened and have completely mixed up the ORDER in which the events unfolded. That is a FACT.
On August 17 2010 13:43 waxypants wrote: There are wayyyyyyyyyyyy too many people giving their 2c and making judgments when they obviously weren't even watching when it happened. 99% of people here have gotten the sequence of events completely wrong. Idra didn't refuse casting because BigT was "bming" him. He immediately refused casting BEFORE ANY GAMES WERE PLAYED when BigT first messaged him saying "hey I'm going to be casting your game if that's alright" or something to that effect. After this, BigT tried to joke around with him to lighten him up. This is the alleged "bm". Obviously this was a mistake since everybody knows that that is never going to work. This was stupid of BigT to do and only fanned the flames a little bit (although I doubt Idra really gives a shit about BigT's dumb jokes to him). Finally, BigT only called Idra an "a-move zerg" as a JOKE at the end of one of Idra's games where Idra roflstomped his opponent and seemingly a-moved to victory. Note that this innocuous comment occurred AFTER the Idra had already refused to be casted but was forced to be casted anyway.
Finally, I agree with a lot of the criticisms of BigT to an extent. I frequently facepalm at some of the things he does and says. To be honest though, half the time people won't tell him what he should do or what the fuck is going on, so he then exercises his own judgment (which is pretty bad) in a situation he shouldn't even be in.
you have it wrong on the second sentence. nice try though
Are you referring to "99%"? Nice one. Obvious exaggeration, but a ton of people here obviously didn't see what happened and have completely mixed up the ORDER in which the events unfolded. That is a FACT.
lol no, I was actually referring to something else but its alright because I actually misread what you typed, I thought we were going down the `Idra got BMed and so didnt allow casting` road again. I dont think people care about the BM anyway, the issue was with the integrity, or lack of, by the organizers after the fact.
From what I understand, they messed up and IdrA got mad. To prevent themselves from looking bad they spun the situation to make it look like it was all IdrA's fault. I support IdrA in this situation. Also, being bm isn't as bad as people keep trying to make it sound. A lot of people say "IdrA is bm." and then five seconds later they call him Harry Potter. Guess what? That is bm too. Even esports is about entertainment, and bm is just entertainment. I don't really think IdrA gives a shit if you don't respect him for his bm. He gets respect for his skill anyway.
On August 17 2010 14:49 RAH66Comanche wrote: From what I understand, they messed up and IdrA got mad. To prevent themselves from looking bad they spun the situation to make it look like it was all IdrA's fault. I support IdrA in this situation.
Nah, I was watching the streams and IdrA was plenty dick himself.
On August 17 2010 14:22 Subversion wrote: any record of what IdrA actually did? are there VODs? :D
a very rough overview since you can read it all in the other thread
This thread is in response to the IEM thread, basically Idra refused observers, he got 2 penalty points for it, later after he won all his rounds, he got contacted back to replay 2 rounds because ESL messed up the brackets because of a false win report. Idra said he would do it and called them "fucking morons" over irc or something. So they tacked on 2 penalty points which would put him to 4 which is a DQ
It sounds bad but there was ALOT more that happened I just dont feel like typing it when its in the other thread.
On August 17 2010 14:54 Voyager I wrote: Nah, I was watching the streams and IdrA was plenty dick himself.
funny because I was watching the stream the whole time too and the only BM besides idra refusing the caster was him speaking to Beef in game asking about the money he is owed from a tournament several months back, besides that game the only other idra game that was casted he only said gg.
On August 17 2010 14:22 Subversion wrote: any record of what IdrA actually did? are there VODs? :D
a very rough overview since you can read it all in the other thread
This thread is in response to the IEM thread, basically Idra refused observers, he got 2 penalty points for it, later after he won all his rounds, he got contacted back to replay 2 rounds because ESL messed up the brackets because of a false win report. Idra said he would do it and called them "fucking morons" over irc or something. So they tacked on 2 penalty points which would put him to 4 which is a DQ
It sounds bad but there was ALOT more that happened I just dont feel like typing it when its in the other thread.
Almost.
They banned him, then after the fact, IdrA was contacted by LastShadow, and found out he would have to replay the rounds. IdrA said he would, and told LastShadow to tell the admins that they are fucking idiots.
On August 17 2010 07:02 Fruscainte wrote: If what I'm hearing is true, I think it's bullshit that the ESL is looking over BigT's constant BM and apparent cheating.
Read Chill's response above.
National ESL is reviewing all of the people we let broadcast. We are still figuring our broadcast partner for the American Championship event this October.
"Berated staff and players" - He did this because you fucked up ESL. Stop trying to come out of this smelling like roses. Everyone would have been pissed off with your lack of professionalism, just like IdrA did.
Both have acted unprofessionally. I'm an Idra fan. I like the way he's vocal with his ideas and his view of the game, that's alright. But calling the admins idiots is just to attract attention. Now, this BigT dude apparently is unprofessional himself, in which case Idra can deal with him directly, but his rage at admins in general because they f-ed up is just unprofessional.
Idra was wrong. So what if they fucked up, they should apologize and ask him to play again; and he either accepts the apology and the offer or he doesn't. Why does he BM then? Because he knows he gets reactions from it, gains notoriety and attracts attention. So I'd say his rage was fake if not unnecessary in this situation.
ESL was even more wrong. With all that being said, from what I read here (and I read a great deal of the posts), ESL is just a bunch of unorganized guys trying to put something together. I'd suggest you get down your high horse and deal with players and viewers alike with humility. You're not a big/respected organization yet, far from it (obvious by all the posts).
On a final note, to put it more coarsely as Idra would, get your heads out of your asses.
Tournaments are supposed to cater to the players and provide a smooth and professional experience. It seems that the IEM tournament was neither of these things with them messing up the tournament brackets. Idra should not have to pay for there mistake. These mistakes shouldn't even happen, especially with such a large scale tournament. Also, people really over exaggerate Idra's "bm". The worst I have seen him do was say "you're a joke" or not "gg-ing", which isn't much of a big deal anyways, in fact I like the smack talk because it brings a nice twist to the drama of the game. It's not like he "f-bombs" the opponent or something around that magnitude. Of course if there was a pre-determined agreement to leave these kinds of remarks out of games, I can understand that, but a personal message between the admins and Idra.....not that big of a deal.
On August 17 2010 15:23 Sqq wrote: "Berated staff and players" - He did this because you fucked up ESL. Stop trying to come out of this smelling like roses. Everyone would have been pissed off with your lack of professionalism, just like IdrA did.
Who cares if ESL screwed up. It's in the rules, "don't berate staff or players"
Okay, IdrA get's pissed that the ESL messed up. He berates staff.
Clear cut breach of rules.
Now whether those rules are fair, or whether IdrA had reason to complain are a completely different discussion, but IdrA broke rules, got penalized, END OF STORY.
On August 17 2010 15:23 Sqq wrote: "Berated staff and players" - He did this because you fucked up ESL. Stop trying to come out of this smelling like roses. Everyone would have been pissed off with your lack of professionalism, just like IdrA did.
Who cares if ESL screwed up. It's in the rules, "don't berate staff or players"
Okay, IdrA get's pissed that the ESL messed up. He berates staff.
Clear cut breach of rules.
Now whether those rules are fair, or whether IdrA had reason to complain are a completely different discussion, but IdrA broke rules, got penalized, END OF STORY.
you can't do the whole "who cares if ESL screwed up". its the whole fact that they did screw up in more ways than one and how they reacted to it that created an issue of this magnitude.
there is also an expectation that ESL will run their tournament in a professional manner. there is also an expectation that they will only have to go through each round once, but IdrA was informed he would have to replay two rounds. there is an expectation that IdrA will be given a fair chance at participating in a tournament but was considered disqualified from an amateur caster (which ultimately created the BM). there is an expectation that they will put quality (of the game) over quantity (of casters). there is an expectation that staff, whether they are volunteers or not, will not berate players.
ESL, in association of BigT and their use of his services, essentially did none of the above. just like how there are expectations for players to abide by rules, there is an expected level of professionalism for tournaments to abide by.
Well I can understand Idra's behavior, if you can't play 100% due to lag issue I think you can "rage" against the caster ... This rule is good but there should be something like "if there is lag and the player can't play properly, then the cast can be canceled"
On August 17 2010 04:25 Psiclone wrote: What an embarrassment. There should be 0 tolerance for berating players and staff.
hey if I say your gay? does that make me a noob at starcraft? does that make my game lest enjoyable to watch? does that HAVE ANYTHING to do with starcraft and electronic sports?
It doesnt make you a noob at Starcraft, just a noob at this other game called "life". Oh and if you say thing exactly like that it also makes you a noob at grammar, but you probably think that it is cool to leave out stuff.
For example: "your gay" Your gay what? Mother? Father?
Example 2: "does that make my game le[a]st enjoyable to watch?" I added in the missing letter and the answer is yes.
Just check my signature and think hard on it for a while, maybe its wisdom will dawn on you.
Sure Starcraft 2 is a competitive game, but the competition should be resolved by units built and not by letters typed. If you cant control yourself and have to be insulting to other players you should not compete anywhere, because verbal abuse is harder to heal than physical abuse. There is no medicine to make you forget certain things. Focus the aggression on the game and not the player and most importantly: Know when you lost because you yourself have screwed up. That is something IdrA still needs to learn as his games against Silver have shown.
On August 17 2010 16:18 Hrafn wrote: I despite all of this, IdrA still has fans. I don't get it.
Its the same reason why all those idiots who spray our buildings and underground trains with ugly graffiti have fans: they are cool, because they are daring and go against authority. In our world there is no chance - apart from bungee jumping, paragliding, freeclimbing or whatever - to have "adventures" which involve danger. Not following rules is the only way which poor citybound kids can get that feeling and the adrenaline kick associated with it. So obviously IdrA turns into a hero, because he "dares" to be the rager and personally I think he does it on purpose, because who would remember him if he didnt do it? A Zerg who plays boring games with mechanic focus and singlemindedness?
Sadly this trend for "scandals" doesnt stop once you have grown up or 99% of the annoying papparazzi would be out of a job.
On August 17 2010 17:00 Lylat wrote: Well I can understand Idra's behavior, if you can't play 100% due to lag issue I think you can "rage" against the caster ... This rule is good but there should be something like "if there is lag and the player can't play properly, then the cast can be canceled"
IdrA knew there was a chance to get additional lag, because he plays from Korea. That is his own fault and why should the tournament viewers be penalized for it? If he cant play due to lag he should not compete, it is as simple as that.
On August 17 2010 14:22 Subversion wrote: any record of what IdrA actually did? are there VODs? :D
a very rough overview since you can read it all in the other thread
This thread is in response to the IEM thread, basically Idra refused observers, he got 2 penalty points for it, later after he won all his rounds, he got contacted back to replay 2 rounds because ESL messed up the brackets because of a false win report. Idra said he would do it and called them "fucking morons" over irc or something. So they tacked on 2 penalty points which would put him to 4 which is a DQ
It sounds bad but there was ALOT more that happened I just dont feel like typing it when its in the other thread.
Almost.
They banned him, then after the fact, IdrA was contacted by LastShadow, and found out he would have to replay the rounds. IdrA said he would, and told LastShadow to tell the admins that they are fucking idiots.
It's sad when administrators abuse the rules to protect themselves from justified criticism It's especially unfortunate that they disqualified one of the greatest SC2 players out of their own anger at being called on their incompetency, too.
If you have rules about flaming admins, but then act like a fucking idiot and get called on it, that's one of the times you have to discard the rule or else you turn into a rules monkey who leeches off the community instead of a contributing member.
On August 17 2010 16:18 Hrafn wrote: I despite all of this, IdrA still has fans. I don't get it.
Its the same reason why all those idiots who spray our buildings and underground trains with ugly graffiti have fans: they are cool, because they are daring and go against authority. In our world there is no chance - apart from bungee jumping, paragliding, freeclimbing or whatever - to have "adventures" which involve danger. Not following rules is the only way which poor citybound kids can get that feeling and the adrenaline kick associated with it. So obviously IdrA turns into a hero, because he "dares" to be the rager and personally I think he does it on purpose, because who would remember him if he didnt do it? A Zerg who plays boring games with mechanic focus and singlemindedness?
Sadly this trend for "scandals" doesnt stop once you have grown up or 99% of the annoying papparazzi would be out of a job.
On August 17 2010 17:00 Lylat wrote: Well I can understand Idra's behavior, if you can't play 100% due to lag issue I think you can "rage" against the caster ... This rule is good but there should be something like "if there is lag and the player can't play properly, then the cast can be canceled"
IdrA knew there was a chance to get additional lag, because he plays from Korea. That is his own fault and why should the tournament viewers be penalized for it? If he cant play due to lag he should not compete, it is as simple as that.
I think IdrA has a lot of fans because he's probably the best zerg player in the world and the only 'foreigner' playing SC2 on a Korean pro team. Maybe I'm wrong though, it's probably because the whole SC community is a bunch of angry teens, right?
On August 17 2010 16:18 Hrafn wrote: I despite all of this, IdrA still has fans. I don't get it.
Its the same reason why all those idiots who spray our buildings and underground trains with ugly graffiti have fans: they are cool, because they are daring and go against authority. In our world there is no chance - apart from bungee jumping, paragliding, freeclimbing or whatever - to have "adventures" which involve danger. Not following rules is the only way which poor citybound kids can get that feeling and the adrenaline kick associated with it. So obviously IdrA turns into a hero, because he "dares" to be the rager and personally I think he does it on purpose, because who would remember him if he didnt do it? A Zerg who plays boring games with mechanic focus and singlemindedness?
Sadly this trend for "scandals" doesnt stop once you have grown up or 99% of the annoying papparazzi would be out of a job.
On August 17 2010 17:00 Lylat wrote: Well I can understand Idra's behavior, if you can't play 100% due to lag issue I think you can "rage" against the caster ... This rule is good but there should be something like "if there is lag and the player can't play properly, then the cast can be canceled"
IdrA knew there was a chance to get additional lag, because he plays from Korea. That is his own fault and why should the tournament viewers be penalized for it? If he cant play due to lag he should not compete, it is as simple as that.
I think IdrA has a lot of fans because he's probably the best zerg player in the world and the only 'foreigner' playing SC2 on a Korean pro team. Maybe I'm wrong though, it's probably because the whole SC community is a bunch of angry teens, right?
If it was all about his skill, why arent the other great Zerg players having as many fans? Its the same reason why there are so many rumors flying around for our "stars": "any publicity is good publicity" and IdrA (and his PR-buddy Artosis) have managed to bring it to perfection for Starcraft. I guess they are writing up lines of what to rage next about when they are together and their orchestrated "Terran is IMBA" and "we tried everything" mantras are designed to set the stage for a lot of rage while IdrA is the victim as he is clearly not playing the IMBA race.
Yes I know this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but the alternatives of IdrA being an immature kid who didnt get taught decent values by his parents OR that he is simply suffering from a psychological disorder which puts all blame one everything but himself are worse IMO. Personally I was raging like IdrA as a small child, but then I got some help and it stopped when I was 12 years or so, so such a "disorder" does exist.
can u imagine on official sport if a player say noo obs! all out of the stadium... I don't want TV to broadcast my match... This is joke realy... Lets take for example snooker its 1v1 sport... If the crowd is too loud referees stop the game till the crowd cool down.. I don't agree IdrA unwilling to allow his games casted... If there is lagg that doesn't come from him but from caster, caster should be askd to leave but Can caster lagg the game if he and the player are in NA and IdrA is in korea...
Midway, as others have remarked, I have to congratulate you on your resolute calmness dealing with some quite pointed criticism. I think had such level headedness been deployed on the weekend a lot of needless characters would have been punched into keyboards worldwide
I think the issue a lot of people are still having though, is that it is clear that Idra got (and to use your admins favourite word it seems) 'punished' for his misconduct.
It's not clear whether those that acted improperly on behalf of ESL, or associated casters, have also been sanctioned.
I think if you make it clear that sanctions have occurred here too I think a lot of people will chill out and move on.
On August 17 2010 14:22 Subversion wrote: any record of what IdrA actually did? are there VODs? :D
a very rough overview since you can read it all in the other thread
This thread is in response to the IEM thread, basically Idra refused observers, he got 2 penalty points for it, later after he won all his rounds, he got contacted back to replay 2 rounds because ESL messed up the brackets because of a false win report. Idra said he would do it and called them "fucking morons" over irc or something. So they tacked on 2 penalty points which would put him to 4 which is a DQ
It sounds bad but there was ALOT more that happened I just dont feel like typing it when its in the other thread.
Almost.
They banned him, then after the fact, IdrA was contacted by LastShadow, and found out he would have to replay the rounds. IdrA said he would, and told LastShadow to tell the admins that they are fucking idiots.
So many people are such cry babies.
"Noo, my friend told me that he called me an idiot; I must rise up and give him 2 penalty points!"
On August 17 2010 08:32 mmdmmd wrote: I don' think Idra will ever get a sponsor.
Whether he is faking it or not, NO sponsor in the world will want to link their product/service with a personality like his.
Which perfectly explains all the "You can't be serious!" commercials.
Yeah Idra could sell all kinds of stuff.
IdrA rages out of a game and throws his keyboard on the floor. Idra: "Dammit I'm off to make a burger." Goes off and makes a burger (or "insert product here") Next thing he's looking calm again. IdrA: "Mmmm Burgers." Then the caption: "making burgers, a useful skill toi have"
On August 17 2010 08:32 mmdmmd wrote: I don' think Idra will ever get a sponsor.
Whether he is faking it or not, NO sponsor in the world will want to link their product/service with a personality like his.
Which perfectly explains all the "You can't be serious!" commercials.
Yeah Idra could sell all kinds of stuff.
IdrA rages out of a game and throws his keyboard on the floor. Idra: "Dammit I'm off to make a burger." Goes off and makes a burger (or "insert product here") Next thing he's looking calm again. IdrA: "Mmmm Burgers." Then the caption: "making burgers, a useful skill toi have"
On August 17 2010 04:18 midway wrote: IdrA situation
The second issue regarded IdrA, specifically. IdrA was informed for his second match that he would be casted on the stream made available to fans. Many have made a point that it’s silly to “force casting” but again even with replays fans should be allowed to watch any match. IdrA has chosen to take part in a tournament intended for American players from Korea. As a citizen of the USA this is his right, but he also must deal with the latency issues involved with this decision and the rules that allow casters and admins to spectate matches. The rules specifically state a player must allow admins and casters to spectate a match if requested and those rules were available before IdrA entered the Cup.
Regardless or not of the rule (which sucks, by the way), I think this is a bit over the top. Forcing IdrA to have spectators in game and cause latency is harmful to the players. It doesn't allow them to perform at peak levels. Not having a player play at his full potential is a bit dumb. It's against the very spirit of ESPORTS.
I assume the ESL people running the show are gamers. What if you were in IdrA's shoes? Do you really think it's fair for a top tier player (mind you, the only westerner on a Korean progaming team) to be put at a disadvantage because you just want more hits for your website?
Please, find another set of players to cast. Let progamers play at their full potential.
No offense, but I'm sure the NBA teams competing in the playoffs rather play on their own courts without the thousands in attendance and camera crews taking pictures and shooting video. They'd play at a fuller potential in that case too, wouldn't they?
On August 17 2010 14:22 Subversion wrote: any record of what IdrA actually did? are there VODs? :D
a very rough overview since you can read it all in the other thread
This thread is in response to the IEM thread, basically Idra refused observers, he got 2 penalty points for it, later after he won all his rounds, he got contacted back to replay 2 rounds because ESL messed up the brackets because of a false win report. Idra said he would do it and called them "fucking morons" over irc or something. So they tacked on 2 penalty points which would put him to 4 which is a DQ
It sounds bad but there was ALOT more that happened I just dont feel like typing it when its in the other thread.
Almost.
They banned him, then after the fact, IdrA was contacted by LastShadow, and found out he would have to replay the rounds. IdrA said he would, and told LastShadow to tell the admins that they are fucking idiots.
So many people are such cry babies.
"Noo, my friend told me that he called me an idiot; I must rise up and give him 2 penalty points!"
So many people are immature kids who do not respect others and have no manners.
We arent living in the wild wild west anymore, where the strong can waltz over the weak and get away with it. We are living in a world that is filled with humans and where any kind of aggression can easily multiply into an out-of-proportion violence. Our methods of killing / injuring other people are getting better every year and it doesnt take much to kill MANY people. These things all start with a thought and there is no though without words, so violent thoughs should NOT be allowed to flourish with bad behaviour.
On August 17 2010 16:18 Hrafn wrote: I despite all of this, IdrA still has fans. I don't get it.
Its the same reason why all those idiots who spray our buildings and underground trains with ugly graffiti have fans: they are cool, because they are daring and go against authority. In our world there is no chance - apart from bungee jumping, paragliding, freeclimbing or whatever - to have "adventures" which involve danger. Not following rules is the only way which poor citybound kids can get that feeling and the adrenaline kick associated with it. So obviously IdrA turns into a hero, because he "dares" to be the rager and personally I think he does it on purpose, because who would remember him if he didnt do it? A Zerg who plays boring games with mechanic focus and singlemindedness?
Sadly this trend for "scandals" doesnt stop once you have grown up or 99% of the annoying papparazzi would be out of a job.
On August 17 2010 17:00 Lylat wrote: Well I can understand Idra's behavior, if you can't play 100% due to lag issue I think you can "rage" against the caster ... This rule is good but there should be something like "if there is lag and the player can't play properly, then the cast can be canceled"
IdrA knew there was a chance to get additional lag, because he plays from Korea. That is his own fault and why should the tournament viewers be penalized for it? If he cant play due to lag he should not compete, it is as simple as that.
I think IdrA has a lot of fans because he's probably the best zerg player in the world and the only 'foreigner' playing SC2 on a Korean pro team. Maybe I'm wrong though, it's probably because the whole SC community is a bunch of angry teens, right?
If it was all about his skill, why arent the other great Zerg players having as many fans? Its the same reason why there are so many rumors flying around for our "stars": "any publicity is good publicity" and IdrA (and his PR-buddy Artosis) have managed to bring it to perfection for Starcraft. I guess they are writing up lines of what to rage next about when they are together and their orchestrated "Terran is IMBA" and "we tried everything" mantras are designed to set the stage for a lot of rage while IdrA is the victim as he is clearly not playing the IMBA race.
Maybe because the other ''great zerg players'' didn't go to Korea during BW, haven't appeared on TV like Idra has etc? And you hardly hear from any of the Zerg players either, Idra posts on these forums regularly.
Go a few months back and ask how many people were fan of Ret? I'm quite sure his fan count exceeded Idras by a lot. But oh wait, Ret was a good manner guy! Doesen't that make a hole in your logic? Yes it does. Ignorance, ignorance.... Both Ret and Idra were very skilled players, and got regonized for it. Thus got a lot of fans. Idra has been very consistent for years now, in both BW and SC2. Maybe that might have SOMETHING to do with his fanbase? It has nothing to do with Idra being a ''rebel'' or w/e your trying to ridicolously portray him as. Are you serious? Lol. Idra gets annoyed easily and rages, he's admitted it himself numerous times, it's nothing to do with him trying to showoff or trying to ''fight the power'' It's just how he is as a person.
I'm an Idra fan, not because he rages, but because hes a skilled player that keeps giving results.
But you can live in your dream world where Idra gets fans for being a ''rebel'' LOL. Just ask yourself this: Would anyone care about Idra if he was equally BM but wasn't consistent and, well, sucked? No they wouldn't. Idra gets attention because he is easily among the BEST players in SC2 in the world currently, but hes BM at the same time too. It's not the other way around.
´cmon all, IdrA is still a very good SC2 player, like or dont like his manners ingame.
I recommend you all to check out IdrA isnt all bad ya know ^^
Bad manners will never dissapear from sports, its a selling factor we need them, especially when the BM players are actually good players and not only famous for their BM.
On August 17 2010 07:28 motbob wrote: This makes no sense. How on earth was Idra penalized 2 points if BigT doesn't work for you? Obviously BigT must have had some kind of official status if he was able to punish Idra for not letting him in the game.
IdrA's PP had nothing to do with BigT. It could have been Day9 casting and we still would have given IdrA PP for not allowing a caster in.
The issue people seem to be focused on is BigT. Honestly as Nazgul pointed out Live broadcasting must be enforced. IdrA said he didn't want people in his match no matter who casted it. After the fact, the issue was focused on BigT because he was one of the casters who did IdrA's match later. If we can get past the issue of BigT, the focus on the PP was around IdrA's refusal for any casters and his comments which were later on in the day after the casting.
Honestly my issue is I detect a distinct lack of honesty. This smells like it's just a cover up because there were screen shots of everybody involved having worse BM than Idra. I'm not a fanboy of Idra or BM but if you can't see or won't admit that BigT and ESL have issues then you aren't trying to fix anything, just do damage control. Some people think that's OK but its not because it means all that will happen is ESL will make sure their aren't screen shots of their own BM next time. Nothing you have said indicates any of this is because you are doing the right thing, it's because there is proof of ESL and BigT acting poorly. If you were really interested in doing the right thing you would remove all the points since the situation was caused by BigT antagonizing Idra and a screw up by ESL forcing Idra to forfeit his wins. In addition you would make some rules regarding caster behavior and give the players additional rights regarding lag. I fully understand your need to have the games casted but nobody wants to see laggy games. People watch these games because of the skill of the players. If the lag is bad the skill level deteriorates, diminishing the appeal of watching a progamer in action.
On August 17 2010 08:32 mmdmmd wrote: I don' think Idra will ever get a sponsor.
Whether he is faking it or not, NO sponsor in the world will want to link their product/service with a personality like his.
Which perfectly explains all the "You can't be serious!" commercials.
Yeah Idra could sell all kinds of stuff.
IdrA rages out of a game and throws his keyboard on the floor. Idra: "Dammit I'm off to make a burger." Goes off and makes a burger (or "insert product here") Next thing he's looking calm again. IdrA: "Mmmm Burgers." Then the caption: "making burgers, a useful skill toi have"
It all depends of how successful he and Starcraft 2 become. If Starcraft 2 is hugely successful and Idra is the #1 player in the world I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a "I want you to apologize for driving a Hyundai" commercial.
I had a paragraph long question written out for midway, but then I realized that it would increase my e-peen if I just sided with Idra blindly. It's a usefull skill toi have.
In all seriousness, did the MSN chat between Idra and LS have anything to do with the additional PP? Because if this is one of the reasons, I think it's unjustified because it was a private chat with a person that was not in any way connected to the ESL. However, if it wasn't, than you're completely justified in not releasing details, regardless of how the community reacts.
Why does the ESL want everything done live? Couldn't they have the tourney done all in one day, and then live cast the replays the next? I mean even though they're replays, as long as the results aren't spoiled, the feel of a "live" game would still be there.
it would eliminate the need of having multiple sets of casters all trying to jump from one game to the other, it would be easier to broadcast and cast for that matter. more time to plug sponsors, more time to act calmer in case stupid things like this happen, way easier to stay organized, etc... someone know why?
No, it wasn't "seen" that way, it's explicitly what was said.
There was confusion among everyone involved, including some admins. IdrA's trip to Gamescom confused the situation further.
If you fuck up, say that you fucked up. Man up. I edited my posts to show some quotes explicitly saying that they were banning Idra. There is no confusion about what was said.
I am glad you guys went back on the decision but don't try to cover up what happened with lies.
Hell, if an admin or 2 were idiots and messed up... just say that. Say what actually happened. Just don't try to lie to minimize it.
Seriously I love the ESL, I love anyone who contributes to e-sports. But Integrity... please
Such a good post. Come clean with stuff like this. Yes I know you grew up with officials doing this all the time as did I but they are not good role models!
We arent living in the wild wild west anymore, where the strong can waltz over the weak and get away with it.
Wow sounds like I need to move to Germany, or maybe you just haven't made it to the working world yet. Either way this is a good example of people misunderstanding the issue, which is ESL being dictatorial and the players having no rights.
All the sports analogies about having fans leave the stadium and whatnot are just plain wrong. Fans in a stadium or the broadcasting of a sports event doesn't impede the players in the same sense as used here.
A truer analogy would be if 5-6 fans or camera crews were allowed ON the court of a basketball game or whatever field used in that specific sporting event, thus these observers would impede the performance of the players.
On August 17 2010 08:32 mmdmmd wrote: I don' think Idra will ever get a sponsor.
Whether he is faking it or not, NO sponsor in the world will want to link their product/service with a personality like his.
Which perfectly explains all the "You can't be serious!" commercials.
Yeah Idra could sell all kinds of stuff.
IdrA rages out of a game and throws his keyboard on the floor. Idra: "Dammit I'm off to make a burger." Goes off and makes a burger (or "insert product here") Next thing he's looking calm again. IdrA: "Mmmm Burgers." Then the caption: "making burgers, a useful skill toi have"
Feels like Idra got shortchanged here. Maybe he did go overboard with the swearing against the admins, but i bet anyone else who had thought he had won and had left would be so pissed that they have to come back to play again. Just think about it. The point of the entire thing is that the ESLs admin fucked up somewhere and its not like Idra totally refused to replay the match and demand that his position is kept. Instead, they repay his favor by giving him more penalty points.
The point is? They ain't showing respect to other people and demand respect from them
On August 17 2010 19:40 Invictus wrote: Feels like Idra got shortchanged here. Maybe he did go overboard with the swearing against the admins, but i bet anyone else who had thought he had won and had left would be so pissed that they have to come back to play again. Just think about it. The point of the entire thing is that the ESLs admin fucked up somewhere and its not like Idra totally refused to replay the match and demand that his position is kept. Instead, they repay his favor by giving him more penalty points.
The point is? They ain't showing respect to other people and demand respect from them
From what I've heard, he's cursed out admins in all 3 cups so far. I doubt the last points in this had to do with the comments you're talking about, considering those comments were AFTER the points were given.
On August 17 2010 08:32 mmdmmd wrote: I don' think Idra will ever get a sponsor.
Whether he is faking it or not, NO sponsor in the world will want to link their product/service with a personality like his.
Which perfectly explains all the "You can't be serious!" commercials.
Yeah Idra could sell all kinds of stuff.
IdrA rages out of a game and throws his keyboard on the floor. Idra: "Dammit I'm off to make a burger." Goes off and makes a burger (or "insert product here") Next thing he's looking calm again. IdrA: "Mmmm Burgers." Then the caption: "making burgers, a useful skill toi have"
ROFL
Nice, cause of you I got caught on teamliquid at work (was laughing too much) xD
imo the first thing that should happen is ELS should make sure the player's abuse was unwarranted, and if it wasn't then they should deal with the caster (aka: fire bigT), the second thing is to set an example and make sure other players don't think it's alright to behave the way idra did.
(personally I would defend idra's actions in this instance, but an organization like the ESL have to maintain a certain level of respect from the players)
I haven't seen what ESL is doing about the caster yet? (who was really the problem in this whole thing)
They let BigT today (for me) probably for US was yesterday. He casting again for me is huge mistake... I only saw the game LS vs Bubba and i have to say WTF he is suppose be a cast? He cleary help friends (Huk msn ^^) he ony respect the friends and the opponents are just "shit". ESL if yo want to be professional hired are another caster and if he is not part of ESL why the fuck you let him cast when he is so bad???
Idra made a mistake yah. But he have right talking bad about admins and if he was telling a friend who cares?? Want that gamers be professional learn how to be professional to.
Idra dig wrong. ESL fail hard. BigT /facepalm.
I can be wrong but is this a first time that Idra insult admins? If it is Idra have even more right ^^