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Having said that, some of the issues with BigT are real, but we should give him a chance to defend himself.
BigT was a designated caster for the event. Love or hate him, he has the right to cast the games. A player deliberatly broke the rules and refused to let him cast his game(s). In turn, BigT was "BM" to idra. Now this seems like a simple action leads to re-action issue. Neither of the two individuals did the right thing but BigT's lack of profesionalism was a response to Idra's actions.
I think what should happen is :
Idra gets penalized for breaking the rules (done)
BigT apologizes to everyone (including Idra) and learns from the experience
Everyone else just moves on.
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Only reason bigT wanted to cast idras games so bad is because bigT wants to cast a game with a pro like idra in it. Do you think he would have complained if a different player told him not to stream? STRONGLY doubt it. And even if he did ESL probably would have been like who cares. It wasnt even an important game. If he wanted to stream it so bad he could have just casted the replay. But nope, he wanted to qq to the admins and keep quoting the rules just so he could cast an idra game and rub it in his face.
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On August 17 2010 06:52 shrinkmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 06:49 rS.Sinatra wrote:
Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general. Yeah that's why they NEVER showed a tennis match of John McEnroe on TV and the commentators are famous millionairs.
Notice how if you wikipedia the man, "bad manners" wasn't one of the major highlights of his career?
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On August 17 2010 06:51 kar1181 wrote:
Idra didn't let a caster in, he admits it, everyone agrees that's against the rules. Fine.
But I think what everyone is concerned about, and what doesn't seem to be addressed at all (and this will keep bubbling along like all PR disasters do, until someone, finally, addresses it head on with a mea culpa) is the handling of Idra yesterday by adminstrators both here, on irc and no doubt in person.
I don't know what was said in private, but just what was posted, here, in black and white in the forums, was poor conduct. It leads me to think the conduct behind the scenes was even worse.
Until this is openly and honestly addressed and blame accepted, this will keep on going on and on. And it wont hurt Idra, he's already a martyr. But your organisation will be the worse for it.
Midway is picking and choosing what he responds to, he obviously won't touch the REAL issue here that you've brought up.
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On August 17 2010 06:55 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 06:50 Warrior Madness wrote:There is still the larger issue of BigT: On August 16 2010 21:12 floor exercise wrote:
The real question is why does ESL give "official" caster designation to a person who:
Provokes players and take great pleasure in seeing them punished
Cheats on MSN with players he prefers
Lies and takes credit for tournaments he does not operate
Does everything in his power to have other casters removed from games to hoard viewers (where is the community spirit?)
I don't think there has been a single tournament where this guy has not caused trouble thinking he's above the players themselves let alone other casters who are usually significantly better than him, with higher resolution streams that don't lag to shit.
Get rid of this clown On August 16 2010 23:47 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
This is a very interesting point. One mistake or drama I can forgive, but this laundry list from a guy that is very new to the scene? I don't know if I can swallow that. I actually had to give my casters specific instructions to call me and bring me in the game if BigT started being BigT. I should NEVER have to prepare ahead of time for an asshole caster.
As for the people defending the HuK thing, he should not have continued on the game when GG.net people got left out. He should have said "hey guys the gg.net casters got left out, let's re." It's what we would have done and to just allow it to go on is a horrible move and just proves what everyone is saying about BigT. I have never seen a caster cause so many problems in such a short time.....
Either way this thread is amazing and I'm going to sit back and watch how this unfolds. Either way I spent the first 2 hours at work today reading the 20+ pages of this tread that popped up while I was asleep. What a interesting day for E-drama....
On August 16 2010 15:39 XiaN wrote:
Just to recap the last 15 hours
1.) IdrA refused to let BigT cast his first game after BigT bm'ing IdrA in the ingame chat
2.) HuK forced official gg.net casters to leave his game vs. MorroW because of lag and remade a game with only BigT as caster
3.) After that gg.net refused to let BigT cast the finals of the the EU and US qualifiers and disallowed him to cast the Top8 of the Gosucup. They thought BigT said HuK and MorroW to only let him cast their games ( which is def. not true )
4.) Either StrifeCro or Jobless cheated an caused 2 rounds of the tournament to be replayed
5.) Chill flaming BigT in his BiggerT stream
6.) The whole IdrA vs. ESL thing
Man .. there are golden days to come :D Notice the common thread there? On August 16 2010 15:49 BigT wrote:
Why is Big T in so many of those #s hahaha xD Iccup.Diamond shouldn't be used as evidence against BigT as he clearly has a conflict of interest with BigT. No offense to Diamond but self-advertising on this thread doesn't really help your credibility. Having said that, some of the issues with BigT are real, but we should give him a chance to defend himself.
That's true, there's not much evidence behind Diamond's sayings about BigT. I'm not talking about Diamond's integrity but as someone who's maybe missing some inside information it just doesn't seal the deal.
Having said that it seems there are enough people who are giving reason to believe BigT is further involved in this incident then he should be as a caster.
At this point BigT seems to have garnered a lot of flack from this incident, it'll be interesting what he himself has to say.
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so uhm why does it HAVE to be casted? submitting replays by both players is not enough? what are they gonna do edit the replay?
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If what I'm hearing is true, I think it's bullshit that the ESL is looking over BigT's constant BM and apparent cheating.
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On August 17 2010 07:00 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 06:52 shrinkmaster wrote:On August 17 2010 06:49 rS.Sinatra wrote:
Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general. Yeah that's why they NEVER showed a tennis match of John McEnroe on TV and the commentators are famous millionairs. Notice how if you wikipedia the man, "bad manners" wasn't one of the major highlights of his career?
XD
"He is best remembered for his shot-making artistry and superb volleying; for his famous rivalries with Björn Borg, Jimmy Connors and Ivan Lendl; for his confrontational on-court behavior which frequently landed him in trouble with umpires and tennis authorities; and for the catchphrase "You can not be serious!" directed toward an umpire during a match at Wimbledon in 1981."
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On August 17 2010 06:59 DreXxiN wrote:
Count me in on the Boycott. Total Bull and Idra deserves his victories.
Oh no someone won't be watching the free stream!!! Now what?!?
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On August 17 2010 07:02 madagascar wrote:
so uhm why does it HAVE to be casted? submitting replays by both players is not enough? what are they gonna do edit the replay?
If everyone was okay with casting from replays I'm sure they'd do just that. You can't imagine the number of people who bitch non-stop about replay casting, however, each time it's done. Although, I think that the HDH 2, KOTB, and TSL 2 demonstrate that you don't need live casting for high viewer count.
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On August 17 2010 07:02 QuakerOats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 07:00 rS.Sinatra wrote:On August 17 2010 06:52 shrinkmaster wrote:On August 17 2010 06:49 rS.Sinatra wrote:
Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general. Yeah that's why they NEVER showed a tennis match of John McEnroe on TV and the commentators are famous millionairs. Notice how if you wikipedia the man, "bad manners" wasn't one of the major highlights of his career? XD " He is best remembered for his shot-making artistry and superb volleying; for his famous rivalries with Björn Borg, Jimmy Connors and Ivan Lendl; for his confrontational on-court behavior which frequently landed him in trouble with umpires and tennis authorities; and for the catchphrase "You can not be serious!" directed toward an umpire during a match at Wimbledon in 1981."
I'm sorry... I wasn't aware that one sentence out of such a long article served as a "MAIN HIGHLIGHT" lewl
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On August 17 2010 06:59 DreXxiN wrote:
Count me in on the Boycott. Total Bull and Idra deserves his victories.
No one took any victory away from IdrA. A player he beat wasn't suppose to play him because he mis-reported a match and said he won when he didn't. Now IdrA won't be here tonight to play, so he has to forfeit. IdrA knew he couldn't play tonight but decided to enter the tournament anyway.
That's the confusion here. IdrA just wanted to be top 4, so he didn't care that he would miss tonight's matches.
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On August 17 2010 07:05 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 06:59 DreXxiN wrote:
Count me in on the Boycott. Total Bull and Idra deserves his victories. Oh no someone won't be watching the free stream!!! Now what?!?
Streamers get their money from advertisements. Advertisements, and please correct me if I'm wrong, generate more money for the more people who visit the area of the advertisement. In this case, the stream. And it's not just someone, if a stream usually of like 8 thousand for hypothetical dropped to like 2 or 3 thousand, whether it's free or not someone will notice and someone will change what's the issue.
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I say we just boycott the ESL until BigT is no longer allowed to do casts.
I hate that it would hurt the few nice folks over there, but really, the players and the viewers are what made esports something that money could be made with in the first place.
If they want to play big bad ref with stingy and stubborn views, just don't watch any of their streams and download the replays later from some other website.
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On August 17 2010 06:54 midway wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 06:46 Dycedarg wrote:
So I've been following this since last night and every time someone from ESL comes to TL to "clarify" the situation it seems to be worst. First starting with BigT and his "jokes" which made me say to myself, "Well, I'm not gonna watch any stream that BigT does anymore". Then G2Wolf comes on to clarify it some more but just making it worst and so I decided to not watch any streams from ESL. Then what you just said in bold really bothered me. Now, not only am I not going to watch any stream from ESL I will support the Boycott ESL and tell others to do so. The amount of arrogance the admins of ESL showed through out this event is not only hurting them but to e-sports too. You've lost a viewer today and will continue to do so at the rate you are going.
You can accuse me of arrogance all you want and it is frustrating at lack understand of the simple point. We are doing this FOR YOU! National ESL is forcing casting and getting people streams to watch give you a better chance to see the game we all love. I'm not trying to attack anyone or create problems. My point is simple; its in everyone's best interest to cast these matches. IdrA should want them casted because it makes him more popular. More fans means more sponsors means more money in his pocket. I dealt with the same issue with CS players back in the day. They couldn't understand why I pushed them to broadcast HLTV and give out demos. The goal here is to make SC2 better, more popular and increase awareness of the sport.
But it is not Idra's decision whether it should be casted or not. You have a rule stating that it must be casted, and thus should be following the rule without exception. If he ignores it, you refer to the rule and penalize him accordingly. There should be no 'want' in it.
You're assuming Idra wants them casted. You're assuming he wants more money in his pocket. For all you know, Idra just wants to get better, and a laggy game will not do that. So either you penalize him for not accepting the laggy stream, or you let him have a lag-free stream and make an exception in the rules. Your goal is that. Idra's goal may be completely different. Do not assume his goal is the same as yours, even if it might be.
If you are going to force streams, at least make it so that the caster does not insult any player. Even sarcastic comments can be taken the wrong way. As a caster, he is somewhat representing the organisation. Thus, he should be acting professionally. If a player does not cooperate, it is not his duty to insult the player.
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On August 17 2010 07:01 KingRajesh wrote:
Midway is picking and choosing what he responds to, he obviously won't touch the REAL issue here that you've brought up.
It's already been discussed. What more do you want me to say? Let me repeat. We made some mistakes, we admit to it. We have done our best to fix it while at the same time punishing people who deserved it.
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On August 17 2010 07:05 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 07:02 QuakerOats wrote:On August 17 2010 07:00 rS.Sinatra wrote:On August 17 2010 06:52 shrinkmaster wrote:On August 17 2010 06:49 rS.Sinatra wrote:
Honestly what would you rather have... two players playing playing a tennis match with one team being a little baby and shouting profanity while the other player tries his best to act with class or a caster who talks alot of shit but doesn't affect the game play of the two that are actually playing the game... unless you listen to the cast and hear the shit talking from the caster and get pissed off.. but in that case there is more serious shit to worry about than BMing in general. Yeah that's why they NEVER showed a tennis match of John McEnroe on TV and the commentators are famous millionairs. Notice how if you wikipedia the man, "bad manners" wasn't one of the major highlights of his career? XD " He is best remembered for his shot-making artistry and superb volleying; for his famous rivalries with Björn Borg, Jimmy Connors and Ivan Lendl; for his confrontational on-court behavior which frequently landed him in trouble with umpires and tennis authorities; and for the catchphrase "You can not be serious!" directed toward an umpire during a match at Wimbledon in 1981." I'm sorry... I wasn't aware that one sentence out of such a long article served as a "MAIN HIGHLIGHT" lewl
You're really going to continue this? That "one sentence" is the article's fucking summary, the very purpose of which is to give you the main highlight. McEnroe is legendary for his tremendous results and for his temper in the same exact way that Idra is.
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backpedal backpedal backpedal
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You guys have to understand that as a PR guy, midway probably doesn't have the authority to come here and say "We sucked" on behalf of the ESL. I'm pretty sure he understands that much of what went on was their fault.
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On August 17 2010 07:08 midway wrote:
It's already been discussed. What more do you want me to say? Let me repeat. We made some mistakes, we admit to it. We have done our best to fix it while at the same time punishing people who deserved it.
So the next caster gonna be? ^^
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EPT
