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On August 15 2010 14:10 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 14:04 Saracen wrote:On August 15 2010 13:32 iEchoic wrote:On August 15 2010 11:03 Saracen wrote:
At the moment, there doesn't exist a single top Zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine." Wow, I completely disagree. I've played players higher-ranked than MasterAsia and they have told me they think TvZ is fine. I played a very good Z player named EnvY last night who I talked to about TvZ balance. EnvY's ranked 84th on Blizzard's top 200 (which is more accurate than ladder rating - masterasia is 120th or something). The thing is just that the players who don't think it's imbalanced don't come and complain, so their voices aren't heard. EnvY explained that TvZ appears to be imbalanced because Terran's initial mid-game push is so hard to fight off (which it really is). The initial mech or bio push, before Z's options really start to open up, is challenging to fight off and not many people have fleshed out how to beat it. However, once that is over (and it will get increasingly easy as time goes on and methods have been developed), Z has a big advantage. I'm paraphrasing here, so if you read these forums, please clarify for me. He does think that ZvP is actually imbalanced though - but not ZvT. The mod edit and your post turned the entire argument into a big appeal to authority. Not to mention that not even whine threads get closed, so the mod edit isn't really saying anything. This post just set a tone for people to shut down arguments based on perceived authority bestowed by you/the moderating staff. Get your facts straight. MasterAsia is higher than EnvY on the ladder. Sheth is higher than EnvY on the ladder. Bubba is higher than EnvY on the ladder. SLush is higher than EnvY on the ladder. CatZ is higher than EnvY on the ladder. Machine is higher than EnvY on the ladder I don't know what "higher-ranked" players you've been talking to, but it's certainly not them or IdrA (or Dimaga). And by top Zergs, I mean Zergs that are winning things. Not random Zergs that beat you in a TvZ on the ladder that you ask for practice games and opinions for after. I have a feeling that the "higher-ranked" players you are talking about are this EnvY guy and maybe another Terran player or two, unless you can prove me wrong. And the point is authority matters. If your EnvY can take down Qxc Terran in a Bo5, I'll shut up. But things are different at top levels of play. And by "top" I mean the actual top, not the top 100 in the US ladder. The point is that Zergs like Sheth consistently lose versus Qxc/CauthonLuck/Drewbie. Maybe this is just a US server phenomenon, but I'm pretty sure (now that Dimaga switched to T), it's similar on the EU server as well. But it's not just that they lose. It's that they don't know how to win anymore. Because of these problems brought up in the OP exactly. You think they aren't constantly switching their playstyle? You think they aren't always trying new things and thinking of new strategies? You'd be kidding yourself. Your entire argument is based on in-game diamond ladder ranking. You mentioned CauthonLuck, and by your metric, he's a platinum noob. I was referring to Blizzard's list which uses the real MMR rating. My facts are straight, you just didn't read my post.
lol  I like this guy everytime I read his posts.
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Us who are below pro level shouldnt really be commenting much on the incidents in themselves other than perhaps agree and say we have similar experiences.
Like it or not the matchmaking system pairs us often times against terrans who are just as clueless as to what exactly is overpowered as the rest of us and when you loose you can always fault yourself for not scouting that hidden expo or playing shitty etc. I myself am still at a level where im eating dirt on the pavement left by sheth, idra, diemaga etc.
I am 500 points diamond and still imho at my infancy in truly understanding my race (zerg). The matchmaking system is less than ideal BECAUSE IT pairs you to people RELATIVE to your skill and on very few occasions do you face people who smash your face in and teach you something new about the matchup.
its fairly obvious that there shouldnt be 800 point diamond league players. That there should be one or even two leagues above diamond again for a more accurate translation of player skill.
so what your saying is when the game wasnt released terran wasnt imba, but now terrran is imba because we got better? People have claimed terran are imba since beta, now that the game is out there more people play terran and the imbalances at that level are highlighted more as people figure them out and abuse them for what its worth.
I played a very good Z player named EnvY last night who I talked to about TvZ balance where are his records? will he release a replay pack? where are his wins? how big is his epeen? ladder is less than an ideal measure of skill.
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On August 16 2010 02:18 XazXio wrote:Show nested quote +Two, Idra got those win-ratio very early in the release, when Terrans are not so imba. Terrans are improving very fast, while Zergs improvement is very slow. so what your saying is when the game wasnt released terran wasnt imba, but now terrran is imba because we got better? that doesnt make a lot of sense. nothing about terran has changed other than everyone gets to play now! your basically saying that terran is imba because the players are good?
i think hes saying that terran werent aware of their advantage or werent aware how to abuse it yet..
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On August 16 2010 01:46 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 01:15 monitor wrote:
I think Zerg could be added a few new units in a nearby expansion, but in the mean time these are the changes I think would majorly change the state of ZvT (keep in mind they are pretty big and probably won't happen):
Marauder Concussive Shells- increase to 100/100, add shot cooldown (~5 seconds)
Tank Fire- the tanks 'Smart Fire" needs to be removed (make the siege tank not insta-hit)
Bunker Salvage- only return %50, increase time to salvage
Viking AA- decrease range to 7
Raven- increase build time by 10 seconds
What do you guys think? Is this completely ridiculous? The last two are. First, people need to STOP ASKING TO REDUCE VIKING RANGE. That would fuck up TvP very, very badly seeing as Colossi are already incredibly powerful.Second, Ravens already cost a shit-ton, take a long ass time to build, and have only one good ability (and one fairly gimmicky one). The nerf to them is completely unnecessary. If you're going to nerf something, do it with a point, not just because "T needs to be nerfed". Other than that, yes, Salvage and Tank fire definitely need to be fixed. I'm not sure about Marauders. I always thought that Stim was pretty unnecessary on such a powerful unit, but I haven't seen them as that incredibly game-breaking in a while now.
I don't understand why people think terran absolutely must have a range 9 air to air fighter in order to deal with collosi, or that the lack of one will somehow "fuck up" tvp. Corruptors are range 6 and they're constantly brought up as a zerg counter for collosi (despite the fact that once you kill the collosi, they're basically useless while vikings can serve in several capacities), and personally I use mutas in that capacity and they have all of range 3. So how exactly would a proposed reduction to 7 which still leaves them with greater range then any other air to air fighter absolutely destroy their usefulness?
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People have seen terran imbalance since the end of phase 1 in late may/early june
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I think salvage should be changed.
return only 75% or 50%?
Tanks should have worse AI. or toss/zerg should get a small advantage. Using a zealot or a couple lings to lure tank fire was a huge part in countering them in BW. I think that should be reinstated to SCII
thats all I got. maybe zerg should be given a couple more options.
i currently play toss and against terran the options still arent that great. but much better than zerg
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It's always the same and as a terran player I am fucking sick of that imbalance whine. Whatever I build, it's imba. Raven, ghost, marauder, banshee, medivacs, tank, thor, helion, viking >> I read about them in a lot of "imbalanced" threads. If I win? Imba. If I lose? LOLZ YOU SUCK TERRAN!!!
Terran mules? IMBA! But don't talk about the larvae mechanic because that's forbidden! 3 extra larvae per puke from the queen. How can people tell then that they have to "decide between an army or drones". Yes, I see zergs losing to some terran push, but only because they are droning as hell (as in: 20 more drones then the terran has).
Protoss has collossae and please don't tell me that these units are not overpowered. Still no whine there.
Why is there still no blizzard fix? Whine about terran is going on since phase 2. That's more then a month away!
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Simple solution maybe - increase orbital command build time by 10-30s? It wouldn't change much mid/late game - but it would delay the mule effect kicking in so hard and so early - zergs macro really doesn't kick in until 2-3 bases.
A large part of the problem is terran has so much production ability early compared to zerg - by preventing them getting orbital + SCVs so fast it would stop the stupidly early push ability terran has and give them a real decision.
( drop viking range to 8, nerf marauder damage vs light , increase orbital command build time and the matchup might be pretty close to balanced ).
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On August 16 2010 02:47 Dente wrote:
It's always the same and as a terran player I am fucking sick of that imbalance whine. Whatever I build, it's imba. Raven, ghost, marauder, banshee, medivacs, tank, thor, helion, viking >> I read about them in a lot of "imbalanced" threads. If I win? Imba. If I lose? LOLZ YOU SUCK TERRAN!!!
Terran mules? IMBA! But don't talk about the larvae mechanic because that's forbidden! 3 extra larvae per puke from the queen.
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On August 16 2010 02:47 Dente wrote:Yes, I see zergs losing to some terran push, but only because they are droning as hell (as in: 20 more drones then the terran has).
That's probably because they're trying to keep up with the terrans economy (the mules you were talking about earlier). Terran can slip up and forget to add mules, and just spam them later when they remember. If zerg misses a larva inject, that's just too damn bad, you don't get that back later.
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so blizzard is soon about to have painted themselfes into a corner. more and more ppl will play terran, any nerfing will make a hord of whining t-players not used 2 fight for their wins.
I forsee: blizzard wont have the balls to fix it : (
Joking with a bit of seriousness.
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On August 16 2010 02:47 Dente wrote:
It's always the same and as a terran player I am fucking sick of that imbalance whine. Whatever I build, it's imba. Raven, ghost, marauder, banshee, medivacs, tank, thor, helion, viking >> I read about them in a lot of "imbalanced" threads. If I win? Imba. If I lose? LOLZ YOU SUCK TERRAN!!!
I feel the same way. I picked Terran because it was the race i played in BW. I can agree that Terran needs some adjustments such as Mauraders not having stim (they dont need it) and the mule needs fixing (maybe decreasing the amount of time it has to live?). It really is fustrating to continue playing Terran just cause its OP so im just gonna play BW till blizz fixes this mess.
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On August 16 2010 02:34 eH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 01:46 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2010 01:15 monitor wrote:
I think Zerg could be added a few new units in a nearby expansion, but in the mean time these are the changes I think would majorly change the state of ZvT (keep in mind they are pretty big and probably won't happen):
Marauder Concussive Shells- increase to 100/100, add shot cooldown (~5 seconds)
Tank Fire- the tanks 'Smart Fire" needs to be removed (make the siege tank not insta-hit)
Bunker Salvage- only return %50, increase time to salvage
Viking AA- decrease range to 7
Raven- increase build time by 10 seconds
What do you guys think? Is this completely ridiculous? The last two are. First, people need to STOP ASKING TO REDUCE VIKING RANGE. That would fuck up TvP very, very badly seeing as Colossi are already incredibly powerful.Second, Ravens already cost a shit-ton, take a long ass time to build, and have only one good ability (and one fairly gimmicky one). The nerf to them is completely unnecessary. If you're going to nerf something, do it with a point, not just because "T needs to be nerfed". Other than that, yes, Salvage and Tank fire definitely need to be fixed. I'm not sure about Marauders. I always thought that Stim was pretty unnecessary on such a powerful unit, but I haven't seen them as that incredibly game-breaking in a while now. I don't understand why people think terran absolutely must have a range 9 air to air fighter in order to deal with collosi, or that the lack of one will somehow "fuck up" tvp. Corruptors are range 6 and they're constantly brought up as a zerg counter for collosi (despite the fact that once you kill the collosi, they're basically useless while vikings can serve in several capacities), and personally I use mutas in that capacity and they have all of range 3. So how exactly would a proposed reduction to 7 which still leaves them with greater range then any other air to air fighter absolutely destroy their usefulness?
Because Corruptors don't have the health of a paper airplane and Terran don't have much else to deal with Colossi. If the range is reduced this means that Vikings will automatically be within the Stalker's maximum range (as in not at the Stalkers full reach), making them much more vulnerable to Stalkers auto-targeting them.
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On August 15 2010 12:38 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 12:32 kajeus wrote:On August 15 2010 12:28 billyX333 wrote:On August 15 2010 10:05 Perkins1752 wrote:
Dude it has been said so many times no:
1.Zerg players are worse then the average Terran player
2. Zerg is fine l2p
3. If you are still losing, just use nydus
4. It's the player, not the race
5. Just mass Mutas/Roaches and it's gg
6. Broodlords are awesome just quicktech to Blords and it's gg
7. Just sac an Overlord
Others than that, Zerg has superior early-midgame strategies themselves:
1. Banelingbust!
2. Roaches!
3. Alot of other strategies, i don't remember exactly but they are completely awesome
4. Nydus! (It has not been mentioned often, but nydus totally owns)
Others than that, Zerg is fine l2p
User was temp banned for this post. damn such an epic post sorry to see him banned, it basically perfectly satirizes the typical terran poster trying to teach top zerg players how to play "abuse immobility...! " "sac an overlord" "..techswitch..duh..ezgame" im getting a little tired of hearing these pseudo pros telling the top level zerg players these ridiculously simple ideas as if they've gone unexplored Yeah, I'm with you. It was a hilarious post and clearly ironic. Oh well.  If it was soooo clearly ironic, why did it derail the thread?
Because certain people lack the social skills to detect sarcasm. There were only two guy who even took it seriously (hardly call it a derail), out of the hundreds who posted on this thread (and thousands viewing). I find it ironic that users displaying blatant sarcasm should being punished, while those misunderstanding with vulgarity should not.
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I pretty much agree with everything MasterAsia says but only to an extent. Late game, Zerg stands a decent chance against Terran, even without Ultras. It's truly pre-Lair that Zerg is screwed because of the lack of openings and the susceptibility to Cheese (as it has limited resource to tell what's going on in the opponent's base), and very limited resource to deal with such early attack (whether it be cloaked banshees, reapers, hellion, mass marines, a Zerg player MUST prepare for each of those differently.)
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Few of the suggestions here actually seem to address the huge, horrible problem that all the pros are complaining about: Z openings and counter diversity. Instead, we get a wish-list of "make it like BW was" with poor tank AI, unsalvageable bunkers, etc. These might make Z players feel nice, but they don't solve the problem.
Is there a way to solve the opening problem without adding new units? Can anyone suggest something?
Personally, I think queens are making it hard to balance Z. The power of larvae combined with a beast of an early-game defensive unit (that can attack air!) means that all buffs run the risk of instantly OPing Z. I'm not sure how Blizz is going to solve this one.
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On August 16 2010 02:47 Dente wrote:Terran mules? IMBA! But don't talk about the larvae mechanic because that's forbidden!
If we forget a larvae injection we can't get that time back, but if you forget to call down a mule for a few minutes you can just call down four at once.
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On August 16 2010 03:04 V6 wrote:
so blizzard is soon about to have painted themselfes into a corner. more and more ppl will play terran, any nerfing will make a hord of whining t-players not used 2 fight for their wins.
I forsee: blizzard wont have the balls to fix it : (
Joking with a bit of seriousness.
I hope they don't change much in the game. Not for the "terran superiority", but because RTS games aren't like WoW where you can calculate the max. DPS for a class and all classes, and make nerfs based on that. A lot(if not all) of the balance changes come from strategies being too strong/having no counter, not having balls or being "courageous" to nerf something because people on the losing side entice them to.
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The problem with MULEs is not that they give more resources (they don't), but that they allow comebacks that make other races feel that a win was stolen from them. Mined out at your base? Land an orbital command at a gold, drop 12 MULEs, and instantly rise back to 2000 minerals per minute. I don't know if that in itself is OP, but it's pretty frustrating to finally have a Terran contained, only to find out they snuck an expansion for only two minutes and now have twice as much money as I do.
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On August 16 2010 02:47 Dente wrote:
It's always the same and as a terran player I am fucking sick of that imbalance whine. Whatever I build, it's imba. Raven, ghost, marauder, banshee, medivacs, tank, thor, helion, viking >> I read about them in a lot of "imbalanced" threads. If I win? Imba. If I lose? LOLZ YOU SUCK TERRAN!!!
Terran mules? IMBA! But don't talk about the larvae mechanic because that's forbidden! 3 extra larvae per puke from the queen. How can people tell then that they have to "decide between an army or drones". Yes, I see zergs losing to some terran push, but only because they are droning as hell (as in: 20 more drones then the terran has).
Protoss has collossae and please don't tell me that these units are not overpowered. Still no whine there.
Why is there still no blizzard fix? Whine about terran is going on since phase 2. That's more then a month away!
Well.. you need almost 20 more drones to have the same income than a Terran because of mules actually...
And Queens are fine in the way that zerg need a AA unit before Hydra. And because you can't make them from larvaes you can't abuse of the unit. Inject larvaes mechanic make things difficult for sure tho.
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EPT
