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On August 16 2010 00:39 kayl wrote:
Remove infested terran and neural parasite off of Infestors, add dark swarm and consume and most of the problems will be solved.
In BW terran could only deal with dark swarm using irradiate or firebats. They currently have neither of those options in SC2. Therefore dark swarm would simply make terran lose every single game against zerg. We will never see dark swarm in sc2 unless it's in an expansion where terran is given new tools to deal with dark swarm at the same time.
edit: I forgot about hellions being sort of like firebats. But having just hellions to deal with dark swarm would make ZvT one sided. T has to get hellions or they lose to dark swarm and Z will just get some banelings to counter the hellions. Stale match ups for the lose.
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Would a 5-10% movement speed across the board for zerg fix ZvT btw?
It might actually make Z overpowered.
It's amazing how many simple things you could do to completely change balance.
The other route is map pool - put walls in instead of cliffs on all the current map pools and T suddenly drops a few % winrate across the board vs Z/P - more open maps would also change it in favour of Z.
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In BW terran could only deal with dark swarm using irradiate or firebats. They currently have neither of those options in SC2. Therefore dark swarm would simply make terran lose every single game against zerg. We will never see dark swarm in sc2 unless it's in an expansion where terran is given new tools to deal with dark swarm at the same time.
Terran got Dark Swarm - PDDs.
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On August 16 2010 01:09 Luckbox wrote:Show nested quote +
In BW terran could only deal with dark swarm using irradiate or firebats. They currently have neither of those options in SC2. Therefore dark swarm would simply make terran lose every single game against zerg. We will never see dark swarm in sc2 unless it's in an expansion where terran is given new tools to deal with dark swarm at the same time.
Terran got Dark Swarm - PDDs.
Not quite the same, but really good point....
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I think Zerg could be added a few new units in a nearby expansion, but in the mean time these are the changes I think would majorly change the state of ZvT (keep in mind they are pretty big and probably won't happen):
Marauder Concussive Shells- increase to 100/100, add shot cooldown (~5 seconds)
Tank Fire- the tanks 'Smart Fire" needs to be removed (make the siege tank not insta-hit)
Bunker Salvage- only return %50, increase time to salvage
Viking AA- decrease range to 7
Raven- increase build time by 10 seconds
What do you guys think? Is this completely ridiculous?
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You know what would be general-purpose awesome and help the creep-spread problem? Give the units a creep tumor calldown ability like you see all over in the campaign -- you know, those bundles of purple goo hurtling in from the atmosphere as the zerg invade. It could also function like a scan, if you hit your opponents main and they don't clean up the tumor fast enough.
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Something I just thought of a as a possible fix for Terran is to change the mechanics of tech lab so that it stops unit production while researching. This would slow the Terran down but not drastically. (Most likely would force use of a minimum of two production facilities to get any sort of timings done.)
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nice to see masterAsia's post here, That's exactly what I feel about current state of zerg is .
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On August 16 2010 01:15 monitor wrote:
Marauder Concussive Shells- increase to 100/100, add shot cooldown (~5 seconds)
I would leave the Concussive Shells as is and just take Stim off Marauders.
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On August 16 2010 01:15 monitor wrote:
I think Zerg could be added a few new units in a nearby expansion, but in the mean time these are the changes I think would majorly change the state of ZvT (keep in mind they are pretty big and probably won't happen):
Marauder Concussive Shells- increase to 100/100, add shot cooldown (~5 seconds)
Tank Fire- the tanks 'Smart Fire" needs to be removed (make the siege tank not insta-hit)
Bunker Salvage- only return %50, increase time to salvage
Viking AA- decrease range to 7
Raven- increase build time by 10 seconds
What do you guys think? Is this completely ridiculous?
The last two are.
First, people need to STOP ASKING TO REDUCE VIKING RANGE. That would fuck up TvP very, very badly seeing as Colossi are already incredibly powerful.
Second, Ravens already cost a shit-ton, take a long ass time to build, and have only one good ability (and one fairly gimmicky one). The nerf to them is completely unnecessary. If you're going to nerf something, do it with a point, not just because "T needs to be nerfed".
Other than that, yes, Salvage and Tank fire definitely need to be fixed. I'm not sure about Marauders. I always thought that Stim was pretty unnecessary on such a powerful unit, but I haven't seen them as that incredibly game-breaking in a while now.
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On August 15 2010 11:38 Colts-500 wrote:
i dont think you mentioned what terrans could do against zerg in BW wat could the terrans do?? almost nothing i think, but im also noob at sc1 so dont take my word but they were stuck with in the confines of one build mech. and nothing else
im just saying it seems kindave fair that that happens and terrans never whined bout it either
so just wait for a while and if things dont get better in a few months or till next year then complain
just not now
because all of u coming from bw are not used to having to deal with terrans winning so just wait and learn to play
What? Terrans were not stuck with mech only... there were various timing busts involving mm, then there was SK going pure mm+sci vessel, and a variety of other builds ranging from the pure mm to pure mech, with a large blend in between. Also historically Terran had a higher than 50% win ratio vs Zerg in BW, so I wouldn't say that Terran could do nothing. In fact I recall that in some proleague seasons, the TvZ win record was over 60%. Win record aside, there were of course still ways Zerg could win.
OP was an A- zerg in BW btw.
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TL:DR
+ Show Spoiler +
Since asking for new units at this stage of the game is unrealistic until an expansion, I think a reasonable request is speeding up Lair/Hive research times, and lowering the cost of both... This way we can access our game-changing units around the same time as Toss and Terran.
This is a bit of a whine post, but I think its better to put it here than in a new thread, right?
I really enjoy playing SC2 Zerg... The macro style is just really, really fun. However, the current state of Zerg has really been killing the game for me.
I'm mid-level Diamond... 700ish points, and the OP makes many good points.
The real kicker for me is Zerg's lack of variety in what they can do - not just in ZvT, but in every matchup.
Mirrors are almost always kind of one-dimensional, and I would expect that. I can handle being forced into one or two fairly restrictive builds when playing ZvZ. But the other matchups do it too.
ZvP - Let's be honest, mutalisk plays are not extremely viable in ZvP. This limits you to a very one-dimensional game plan almost 100% of the time. Pool first, speedlings, expand. Tech into hydras/roaches OR rush to ultralisks. Sometimes you might manage to get a spire down for corruptors/broodlords, but that kind of play generally comes much later, when the game opens up naturally.
PvZ doesn't get pigeon holed in this way. They can 2 gate, they can push off of 3 gates and a robo, they can run the dreaded 4 warpgate push, they can do sneaky things like proxy voidrays, they can make phoenix plays, and on many maps, they can safely fast expand.
They get extra diversity in their army composition:
Zealots, Stalkers, Immortals, Templar, Colossi, Void Rays, Phoenixes - I see all of these units regularly
How does Zerg typically look:
Lings, Hydras, sometimes Roaches, and then one late game unit: Either Broodlords or Ultras
I feel like we need more units...
And ZvT has been discussed to death here, but I want to reiterate how frustrating it is to be pigeon-holed into 1-2 build orders every single game.
14 pool, 16 hatch?
14 gas, 15 pool?
What else is there? Straight 14-15 hatch?
And again, we're very limited in the units we can use.
Terran has so many options:
Vikings, Banshees, Drop-play, Thors, Tanks, Marauders, Marines, Reapers. Late game BCs are just ridiculous, and don't even get me started on Hellions.
Zerg has a few more options here than vP, but it doesn't make the matchup any easier to play.
Lings, Hydras, Roaches, Mutas are a good option, and Banelings become a situational choice...
Late game Ultras are pretty good, but they're not an "i-win" button.
Again, I feel like we need more units.
Losing the lurker just really sucked, as now we have no really scary mid-game unit.
Toss has Immortals, Void Rays, and Colossi. Super scary, accessible, and reliable mid-game units.
Terran has Tanks, and Thors, and a very scary snow-balling army, that all makes itself readily available in the mid-game.
Zerg's mid-game is always the same. Roaches, Hydras, maybe mutas, and always the threat of a million lings, but none of these units have the "oh shit its an 'X'" effect.
Like literally, as Zerg if I scout a couple colossi I'm thinking "oh shit, that's gonna' make life hard for my hydras". Or if I see a couple Thors/tanks: "oh shit, I really need more units"
Ultras and Broodlords both have that effect on other players, but they just come sooo much later.
Since asking for new units at this stage of the game is unrealistic until an expansion, I think a reasonable request is speeding up Lair/Hive research times, and lowering the cost of both... This way we can access our game-changing units around the same time as Toss and Terran.
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On August 16 2010 01:08 Luckbox wrote:
Would a 5-10% movement speed across the board for zerg fix ZvT btw?
It might actually make Z overpowered.
It's amazing how many simple things you could do to completely change balance.
The other route is map pool - put walls in instead of cliffs on all the current map pools and T suddenly drops a few % winrate across the board vs Z/P - more open maps would also change it in favour of Z.
That would make ZvP broken though.
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On August 16 2010 01:46 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 01:15 monitor wrote:
I think Zerg could be added a few new units in a nearby expansion, but in the mean time these are the changes I think would majorly change the state of ZvT (keep in mind they are pretty big and probably won't happen):
Marauder Concussive Shells- increase to 100/100, add shot cooldown (~5 seconds)
Tank Fire- the tanks 'Smart Fire" needs to be removed (make the siege tank not insta-hit)
Bunker Salvage- only return %50, increase time to salvage
Viking AA- decrease range to 7
Raven- increase build time by 10 seconds
What do you guys think? Is this completely ridiculous? The last two are. First, people need to STOP ASKING TO REDUCE VIKING RANGE. That would fuck up TvP very, very badly seeing as Colossi are already incredibly powerful.
Oh because terran NEEDS to have a unit that can destroy a colossus by a-moving, that can do so from a retardedly safe distance and taking no damage, so that you can keep those units all game to completely shut down all colossus plays for the entire game? Damn, wish every race had those types of units so early in the game. god forbid terran units have to get within range of the enemy's attacks in a fight.
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On August 16 2010 01:51 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 01:46 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2010 01:15 monitor wrote:
I think Zerg could be added a few new units in a nearby expansion, but in the mean time these are the changes I think would majorly change the state of ZvT (keep in mind they are pretty big and probably won't happen):
Marauder Concussive Shells- increase to 100/100, add shot cooldown (~5 seconds)
Tank Fire- the tanks 'Smart Fire" needs to be removed (make the siege tank not insta-hit)
Bunker Salvage- only return %50, increase time to salvage
Viking AA- decrease range to 7
Raven- increase build time by 10 seconds
What do you guys think? Is this completely ridiculous? The last two are. First, people need to STOP ASKING TO REDUCE VIKING RANGE. That would fuck up TvP very, very badly seeing as Colossi are already incredibly powerful. Oh because terran NEEDS to have a unit that can destroy a colossus by a-moving, that can do so from a retardedly safe distance and taking no damage, so that you can keep those units all game to completely shut down all colossus plays for the entire game? Damn, wish every race had those types of units so early in the game. god forbid terran units have to get within range of the enemy's attacks in a fight.
... like Zerg has to do with their Corrupters
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On August 16 2010 01:46 Stratos_speAr wrote:
First, people need to STOP ASKING TO REDUCE VIKING RANGE. That would fuck up TvP very, very badly seeing as Colossi are already incredibly powerful.
Zerg players going for roach hydra have to manage colossus with corruptors (6 range) 
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On August 16 2010 01:54 okrane wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 01:51 tacrats wrote:On August 16 2010 01:46 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2010 01:15 monitor wrote:
I think Zerg could be added a few new units in a nearby expansion, but in the mean time these are the changes I think would majorly change the state of ZvT (keep in mind they are pretty big and probably won't happen):
Marauder Concussive Shells- increase to 100/100, add shot cooldown (~5 seconds)
Tank Fire- the tanks 'Smart Fire" needs to be removed (make the siege tank not insta-hit)
Bunker Salvage- only return %50, increase time to salvage
Viking AA- decrease range to 7
Raven- increase build time by 10 seconds
What do you guys think? Is this completely ridiculous? The last two are. First, people need to STOP ASKING TO REDUCE VIKING RANGE. That would fuck up TvP very, very badly seeing as Colossi are already incredibly powerful. Oh because terran NEEDS to have a unit that can destroy a colossus by a-moving, that can do so from a retardedly safe distance and taking no damage, so that you can keep those units all game to completely shut down all colossus plays for the entire game? Damn, wish every race had those types of units so early in the game. god forbid terran units have to get within range of the enemy's attacks in a fight. ... like Zerg has to do with their Corrupters
zerg corruptors dont have 100 range and have to die/take damage in fights to kill colossi. l2read.
A small decrease in viking range isnt going to make them useless vs toss. thats quite a lame argument. People dont want a viking with 5 range as yes they are paper airplanes that die fast, but something less than what they have now would be more balanced all around.
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Nerfing turrets will hurt bio a lot more than it hurts mech. I really like where turrets are at and I think Thors are the bigger issue.
Marauders should be a support unit; nerf their damage output. They should be meat shields with slow.
Siege tanks are too effective in general and Thors should be less effective against mutas.
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Yeah viking range needs to stay high or its going to mess up TvP real bad. I am not sure what needs to happen but I agree TvZ is a joke right now. I am ~600 point random player and even at that level the zerg needs to play so much better then a terran to win.
Personally I think terran needs a slight nerf and zerg needs a slight buff. TvZ is a joke, TvP is pretty close to balenced possible slight favorite to T and PvZ is pretty damn good.
Maps could make a big difference in the balencing of the game, but the blizz needs to get a little closer to balence with the units first and then allow the community to make maps, and put the most balenced maps into the map pool.
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On August 16 2010 01:58 fnaticAugury wrote:
Nerfing turrets will hurt bio a lot more than it hurts mech. I really like where turrets are at and I think Thors are the bigger issue.
Marauders should be a support unit; nerf their damage output. They should be meat shields with slow.
Siege tanks are too effective in general and Thors should be less effective against mutas.
Problem is Terran gets a mineral boost every game: MULES. It gives you a massive increase in minerals, and lets you spam Turrets because they only cost 100 minerals. Most Terrans put down Turrets just in case and are perfectly fine not using them, but you never see that with Zerg. If a Zerg invests in a couple of Spore Crawlers, their production is cut significantly.
Marauders get ridiculous DPS with Stim and Concussive Shells. Their high HP also makes them tanks.
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EPT
