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On August 16 2010 00:11 MasterAsia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 00:02 Melt wrote:
Something you really hear a lot is that: "Zerg can tech-switch".
That indeed is right, but it doesn't justify anything. There are 2 problems with that and i would like to address them:
1. Zerg doesn't have a huge range of different units that would need the opponent to know that they're coming in order to react properly.
2. In addition, Terran and even Protoss have figured out a unit composition that can handle absolutely everything Zerg can throw at them.
A good Terran Mech Ball consists of Hellions, Tanks, Marines and Thors. Also, they'll have Turrets at their base. Sometimes they'll ad some Vikings or Marauders later in the Game.
-Zerglings get countered by Hellion and Tanks.
-Roaches get countered by Tanks.
-Hydras get countered by Hellions, Thors and Tanks.
-Mutalisks get countered by Marines and Thors and Turrets.
-Banelings get countered by Tanks.
-Broodlords get countered by Vikings.
-Ultralisks get countered by Marauders and Tanks.
-Infestors get countered by Tanks.
They only way for Zerg to win right now is by having a much better economy, but Terran has insane Harrass abilitys with the Hellion and the Reaper (and Viking for Overlord sniping). And they're able to abuse Terrain with Tank/Thor Drops on cliffs. Usually single unit is countered by single unit. That is not a problem. (in BW, dragoons are countered by tanks and zealots are countered by vultures // vultures are countered by dragoons and tanks are countered by zealots, but the combinations stand pretty good and balanced) The problem is, the Zerg combination got countered by Mech very hard. Single counter is not a big deal, but combination counter is really really bad.
Thats what i tried to say. As Zerg, you don't have any combination of units that could handle this Mech Ball.
One thing that works right now is Ultralisk, because they actually are really good against Thors and Tanks. But Terran will get used to Ultras and will find their way to counter them, just because terran has counters available and it really seems that Zerg doesn't have Unit composition that is especially good against a Mech Ball. Also, most games end with a Terran timing push (right about the time your spire has finished) and it's nearly impossible to defend that push.
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On August 16 2010 00:16 Melt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 00:11 MasterAsia wrote:On August 16 2010 00:02 Melt wrote:
Something you really hear a lot is that: "Zerg can tech-switch".
That indeed is right, but it doesn't justify anything. There are 2 problems with that and i would like to address them:
1. Zerg doesn't have a huge range of different units that would need the opponent to know that they're coming in order to react properly.
2. In addition, Terran and even Protoss have figured out a unit composition that can handle absolutely everything Zerg can throw at them.
A good Terran Mech Ball consists of Hellions, Tanks, Marines and Thors. Also, they'll have Turrets at their base. Sometimes they'll ad some Vikings or Marauders later in the Game.
-Zerglings get countered by Hellion and Tanks.
-Roaches get countered by Tanks.
-Hydras get countered by Hellions, Thors and Tanks.
-Mutalisks get countered by Marines and Thors and Turrets.
-Banelings get countered by Tanks.
-Broodlords get countered by Vikings.
-Ultralisks get countered by Marauders and Tanks.
-Infestors get countered by Tanks.
They only way for Zerg to win right now is by having a much better economy, but Terran has insane Harrass abilitys with the Hellion and the Reaper (and Viking for Overlord sniping). And they're able to abuse Terrain with Tank/Thor Drops on cliffs. Usually single unit is countered by single unit. That is not a problem. (in BW, dragoons are countered by tanks and zealots are countered by vultures // vultures are countered by dragoons and tanks are countered by zealots, but the combinations stand pretty good and balanced) The problem is, the Zerg combination got countered by Mech very hard. Single counter is not a big deal, but combination counter is really really bad. Thats what i tried to say. As Zerg, you don't have any combination of units that could handle this Mech Ball. One thing that works right now is Ultralisk, because they actually are really good against Thors and Tanks. But Terran will get used to Ultras and will find their way to counter them, just because terran has counters available and it really seems that Zerg doesn't have Unit composition that is especially good against a Mech Ball. Also, most games end with a Terran timing push (right about the time your spire has finished) and it's nearly impossible to defend that push.
terran can deal with ultras pretty effectively they are just too lazy to. ghost snipe and thor strike rape ultras. its not 1a so they dont use it.
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This is an excellent analysis. This should be emailed to Blizzard with the signatures of every TL.net member who agrees. I bet Artosis, IdrA, Sheth, ostojiy and SLush, to mention a few would agree (but maybe I'm wrong?).
Add my name to that list.
Seriously, Blizzard gets a lot of "zerg is underpowered threads," but none of them are informative and clearly stated like this one is, and they need to know what is wrong.
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My take on it, some here are points made my OP but I just wanted to emphasize on the some more because I think they are valid points. (I'm a terran player fyi).
- Terrans being too versitile
Terrans has TOO many viable openings in TvZ right now. They (We, I guess, I'm terran) Have a plethora of openings that all transition very well into a farily quick FE, Hellion, Banshee, Thor, Vikings etc. In SC/BW, we had 1 really strong and safe econ opening (15 cc), and a few builds to end the game quickly with, but at the cost of a weak econ. Right now terran can basically do both, they get the aggression advantage + the econ advantage.
- The Unit AI is "too smart" sometimes
Overkill on tanks needs to come back. Having 1 tank fire and the rest of the hold fire when people are trying to "bomb" them is ridiculous. Also, drawing fire with scattered units is pointless now seeing how 1/6 tanks will shoot at it, then you move in your core army and 5/6 tanks just blast away.
Common practice in ZvT AND PvT BW was to send in 1-4 units to absorb the first tank volley/clear mines etc, this gave P and Z an window of oppertunity to engage when the tanks were on cooldown. What this did in the end was forcing both T and P to micro carefully, terrans would have to use stop etc on tanks not to waste too many volleys at one target, and they hade to siege up and siege down a lot more.
- The mobility
Zerg has to and should be, the most mobile race. People claiming "spread creep" haven't really played at a higher level on this game because creep spreading is denied easily in mid-game. Zergs ability to pick their battles are pretty much non existant at MOST maps (Exceptions like DO, and Scrap come to mind). What this does is forcing Z to basically play Muta/Baneling/Speedling which is... ugh, very vurneble to tanks. Although I'd like to point out that muta/bling/speedling is probably the most terrifying unit composition to face on LARGE maps which brings me to my next point.
- THE MAPS
I see little or no whine about the maps when it comes to the whole balance issue. I'm pretty sure the maps are playing a huge role in this, I personally lose more often than win vs good zergs on scrap and Desert, because they are big, and Z can use their mobility much more effectively on those maps. Anyone saying "What about M&M&M balls!?" Has yet again not played at a high enough level because M&M&M balls get torn apart by muta/baneling/speedling without any tank support, and tanks are slow as fuck. If Blizzard wants to balance this game entirely they need to start upping their game in the map making department. Maps like Steppes, Kulas.. well uh basically every other map except DO/Scrap, are too well suited for Terran. Too much cliffs, no flanking abilities, hardly any counter abilities (Yes it happends, but how OFTEN, compared to sc/bw do we see Zerg straight up just counter the terrans main instead of engaging head on.. usually not worht it due to small distances).
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I completely agree with this post. I thought ZvT was fine until I started facing people that were higher and actually knew what to do.
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On August 16 2010 00:21 meRz wrote:
- THE MAPS
I see little or no whine about the maps when it comes to the whole balance issue. I'm pretty sure the maps are playing a huge role in this, I personally lose more often than win vs good zergs on scrap and Desert, because they are big, and Z can use their mobility much more effectively on those maps. Anyone saying "What about M&M&M balls!?" Has yet again not played at a high enough level because M&M&M balls get torn apart by muta/baneling/speedling without any tank support, and tanks are slow as fuck. If Blizzard wants to balance this game entirely they need to start upping their game in the map making department. Maps like Steppes, Kulas.. well uh basically every other map except DO/Scrap, are too well suited for Terran. Too much cliffs, no flanking abilities, hardly any counter abilities (Yes it happends, but how OFTEN, compared to sc/bw do we see Zerg straight up just counter the terrans main instead of engaging head on.. usually not worht it due to small distances).
2nd'd completely. Was watching the STX Soul tourney last night, and watched a ZvT on Grand Line. Suddenly I realized - There aren't any maps that allow the kind of play at work on this map in SC2. I won't spoil the match for those that care about that sort of thing, but basically it had some plays that exploited the immobility of mech and the mobility of the zerg army. I think units still need some tweaking, to be sure, but a big changer of the metagame is going to come from the maps, IMO.
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I Have a great Idea:
What if they give the Thor the "structure" type in addition to its other types?
That would allow Baneling to also be effective against Mech and make the Ling, Baneling, Muta combination more viable.
Don't know how it would interract with the structure upgrades for terrans...
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Remove infested terran and neural parasite off of Infestors, add dark swarm and consume and most of the problems will be solved.
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make NP non sucking again
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Thanks to the OP. So many people have been saying this stuff but when it's a top-level Zerg player it's harder for the usual terran trolls to try and ridicule it. All I can say is that I hope Blizzard is listening.
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On August 16 2010 00:39 kayl wrote:
Remove infested terran and neural parasite off of Infestors, add dark swarm and consume and most of the problems will be solved.
And a shipload of new problems will be created.
Dark Swarm T2? You're joking right?
If it got moved to T3, it's useless because it's too late.
@Topic: i fear that this thread will not get the attention it deserves, because there are just 5 new Threads about Terran imba and Zerg underpowered and possible solutions every Minute.
Also, i think that Blizzard handles everything solely based on statistics...
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On August 16 2010 00:11 MasterAsia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 00:02 Melt wrote:
Something you really hear a lot is that: "Zerg can tech-switch".
That indeed is right, but it doesn't justify anything. There are 2 problems with that and i would like to address them:
1. Zerg doesn't have a huge range of different units that would need the opponent to know that they're coming in order to react properly.
2. In addition, Terran and even Protoss have figured out a unit composition that can handle absolutely everything Zerg can throw at them.
A good Terran Mech Ball consists of Hellions, Tanks, Marines and Thors. Also, they'll have Turrets at their base. Sometimes they'll ad some Vikings or Marauders later in the Game.
-Zerglings get countered by Hellion and Tanks.
-Roaches get countered by Tanks.
-Hydras get countered by Hellions, Thors and Tanks.
-Mutalisks get countered by Marines and Thors and Turrets.
-Banelings get countered by Tanks.
-Broodlords get countered by Vikings.
-Ultralisks get countered by Marauders and Tanks.
-Infestors get countered by Tanks.
They only way for Zerg to win right now is by having a much better economy, but Terran has insane Harrass abilitys with the Hellion and the Reaper (and Viking for Overlord sniping). And they're able to abuse Terrain with Tank/Thor Drops on cliffs. Usually single unit is countered by single unit. That is not a problem. (in BW, dragoons are countered by tanks and zealots are countered by vultures // vultures are countered by dragoons and tanks are countered by zealots, but the combinations stand pretty good and balanced) The problem is, the Zerg combination got countered by Mech very hard. Single counter is not a big deal, but combination counter is really really bad. It gets even worse when the number of units get more and more since each of the terran mech units does splash damage, and the only splash damage for zerg in mid-game is banes and FG, which are designed to use against bio terran.
not only that, but they are HARD counters. Generally if lets say terran had fewer hellions as opposed to tanks and thors, you could full on go massed zerglings, but because hellions are SO effective, you need fewer cost wise to completely shut down zerglings.
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On August 16 2010 00:44 Melt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 00:39 kayl wrote:
Remove infested terran and neural parasite off of Infestors, add dark swarm and consume and most of the problems will be solved. And a shipload of new problems will be created. Dark Swarm T2? You're joking right? If it got moved to T3, it's useless because it's too late. @Topic: i fear that this thread will not get the attention it deserves, because there are just 5 new Threads about Terran imba and Zerg underpowered and possible solutions every Minute. Also, i think that Blizzard handles everything solely based on statistics...
I'm not joking, like you said if it's T3 it's too late. But yeah it might need adjusting, maybe make consume require hive tech and a research? That way you can only use a few dark swarms for defense until you get hive, and then you can be offensive with it or vice versa. It's not like it's going to happen, blizzard is way to stubborn with their stupid infestor abilities
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There will probably be no major changes since blizzard is still working on Heart of the Swarm.
Let's face it, they rushed the game and the only race that was actually worked on was Terran, the other two races were half assed from the beginning. Out of Protoss and Zerg, only toss was well developed and Zerg got no attention. Remember how they had no Zerg units from the beginning?
They just threw in some shitty spells and added a roach. All zerg units are the fucking same, while terran got super buffed.
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Great post, hope Blizzard will read this, could help them understand it ^^
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Terran does opening> siege tanks ( only needs 2-3 ) and boom main+natural are secure - build a few turrets for the inevitable mutas, and you basically can't die while on 2 bases - the zerg has to deny the terran 3rd, or take his own 3rd+4th before a zerg can end a game vs a competent terran.
After terran has locked up his main+nat he can either tech, mass, or eco and zerg has to scout which - terran doesn't even care what zerg does beyond if zerg mass expos.
Terran can do a billion different openings and never be in danger vs zerg - zerg can very easily die if he makes the wrong units - or eg blind counters.
Terran makes marauders vs lings.. he can sit behind his wall and doesn't care. He can correct his mistake. Zerg makes roaches vs marauders - whoops gg.
Any zerg mistake is much more open to being punished, and zergs attack options are all locked out vs terran. ( nydus/drops/burrow are all easily countered ). - any high level player will not get dropped/nydus'd and 1 raven counters burrow.
Once terran is on 2 bases w/ siege tanks/turrets up zerg has no avenue of attack open to them - while terran has a multitude of options.
How to solve the problem? ( just a few ideas ).
Lower marauder damage vs light ( down to 6-7 ) - terrans autocast snare unit should be PUNISHABLE.
Concussive Shells/Nitro Packs are 50/50.
Ling speed is 100/100, roach speed 100/100, overlord speed 100/100, burrow 100/100.
Terran can easily afford 2 upgrades ( conc shells + 1 ) wiithout it affecting much - if Zerg gets
2 upgrades it's a big chunk of minerals/gas that early.
Zergs research costs were increased so we had to "pick and choose" our upgrades - Terran always gets marauder shells every game and always makes at least a handful of marauders - because their ability is autocast on and is cheap to get - even against it's "counter" it's still great to have a handful.
There are a whole host of stupid problems in ZvT ( mule is a big one also especially once the game goes multibase - if terran loses all his SCVs or even all but 1 base he's still massively ahead of a zerg in the same situation ). Terran gets a new expo up and then has a massive instant income stream that zerg even if fully saturates via transfer - cannot match.
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Once the Z player reaches ultralisks, its pretty much gg... Even if you try to use the thor cannon, it doesnt kill them, how long it takes to fire it.
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If anyone, terran was made easy and zerg was made super fucking hard to play.
Terrans have mules, salvage bunker, the ability to switch tech, better AI, an 100x better version of a goliath and buffed turrets.
Zerg has slow units, a punishing macro ability, useless queen, and a shitty version of a defiler.
Not to mention hydras are crap and there is no lurker!!!
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On August 16 2010 00:49 kayl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 00:44 Melt wrote:On August 16 2010 00:39 kayl wrote:
Remove infested terran and neural parasite off of Infestors, add dark swarm and consume and most of the problems will be solved. And a shipload of new problems will be created. Dark Swarm T2? You're joking right? If it got moved to T3, it's useless because it's too late. @Topic: i fear that this thread will not get the attention it deserves, because there are just 5 new Threads about Terran imba and Zerg underpowered and possible solutions every Minute. Also, i think that Blizzard handles everything solely based on statistics... I'm not joking, like you said if it's T3 it's too late. But yeah it might need adjusting, maybe make consume require hive tech and a research? That way you can only use a few dark swarms for defense until you get hive, and then you can be offensive with it or vice versa. It's not like it's going to happen, blizzard is way to stubborn with their stupid infestor abilities
Dark Swarm would absolutely do nothing, because of Hellions.
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SC2 is a roller coaster between enjoying the game play phase and being disappointed about everything else they messed up about the game from BW. Melee units seem near useless in SC2, just in general they're to slow to catch up with most of the fast ranged units that can micro "move, attack, move, attack" easy as fuck, even banshees and phoenixes can attack and move, while melee units have to run around TRYING to catch up with units to deal any damage.
Almost every map has a ramp or choke and walling off is common place. Zealot and lings are just pathetic now :/ Even Ultras despite their AoE and extra HP, seem much slower than they where in BW.
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EPT
