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On August 16 2010 03:04 V6 wrote:
so blizzard is soon about to have painted themselfes into a corner. more and more ppl will play terran, any nerfing will make a hord of whining t-players not used 2 fight for their wins.
I forsee: blizzard wont have the balls to fix it : (
Joking with a bit of seriousness.
Thats more true than you think.
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I think the biggest issue is that Zerg only soft counters units, while toss has a mix of soft and hard counters, and terran pretty much has all hard counters.
Think I'm wrong?
Zerg:
Zergling - No bonus damage
Roach - No bonus damage
Hydra - No bonus damage
Muta - No bonus damage
These are the "main" units you'll see from zergs, the others are all more or less only situational
Baneling - Bonus to light/buildings (used for marines, zerglings, workers and buildings)
Corrupter - Bonus to Massive (useful vs BC, Colossus and Carriers only for the most part)
Ultralisk - Bonus to armored/buildings - Late game only (unless you rush to it)
Then the Broodlord and Queen, both with no bonus damage.
Now Toss
Zealot - No bonus damage
Stalker - Bonus to Armored
Sentry - No bonus damage
Immortal - Bonus to Armored
Colossus - No bonus damage
Dark Templar - No bonus damage
Archon - Bonus to biological
Phoenix - Bonus to light
Void Ray - No bonus damage
Carrier - No bonus damage
Mothership (lol) - No bonus damage
And Finally Terran:
Marines - No bonus
Marauder - Bonus to armored
Reaper - Bonus to light
Ghost - Bonus to Light
Hellion - Bonus to Light
Tank - No Bonus when sieged, Bonus to armored when unsieged(Edited)
Thor - No bonus to ground, Bonus to Air - Light
Viking - Bonus to Armored - Air, No bonus to ground
Banshee - No bonus
BC - No bonus
Alright so after to huge wall of text you probably noticed something, the races have 3,4 and 6 hard counter attacks respectively, so you're probably saying something like "well dur you just proved yourself wrong. Well, no I didn't, so prepare for more reading.
Like i mentioned with Zerg, all of the units they used which are hard counters, are pretty much useless otherwise, save for the ultralisk, so that would put Zerg with a grand total of 1 hard counter unit which can be used in a natural army composition.
Now for the protoss, like i said they're in the middle, Stalkers are useful as a general unit as well as countering armored units, so thats 1. Immortals although not good against mass light units, are still great as a support unit, they can tank damage and pretty much every army you'll face will consist of some armored type unit, so they too are always useful to have. The Phoenix is the third (and last) useful unit against units it does not hard counter, it also have quite a nifty ability which can be used for harassing or temporally taking out units in a large battle, so thats 3. The archon however is not one, although great for taking damage (as nothing hard counters it) it is just not cost effective to use, and its only good vs Zerg and bioballs.
The Terran now, first we have the marauder which needless to say is always a useful unit, can output good damage and can take quite a few hits too. The reaper is a bit iffy, personally i think people haven't gotten it to its full potential, and handful of reapers can take out an expansion very quickly, so it could be useful in the late game, however being good vs light isn't a great thing to be, considering how few light units there are. That being said, I would put the reaper into the situational only category for now, although i believe they are still useful outside of their hard counter premises. The Ghost is obviously useful outside of its extra damage to light armor, nukes, snipe, EMP, all good. Hellions sort of over-lap with reapers as they are both harassment units who are fast, and deal extra damage to light, the difference being that hellions can actually be part of a build (to help thors vs lings usually) while the reaper is strictly a lone harass unit, therefore i would say that no, outside of its counter the hellion is just not useful. Next is the thor's anti-air vs light, now this is only one of two attacks so its a bit wierd to judge the thor on this, needless to say though as a unit the thor is definitely useful outside of its counter to air, so its a yes. The viking is also useful outside of its counter, seeing as it can also change modes to ground and its ground mode isn't completely pathetic.
EDIT : Also the tank, thanks for pointing that out, needless to say its also used for more purposed than just a counter to armored when unsieged.
TL;DR
So to overview that last section, the hardcounters which are useful outside of their countering abilities consist of:
Zerg - 1
Protoss - 3
Terran - 5(6 if you include reapers)
Number of units which do not hard counter vs number of total units
Zerg - 6 vs 9
Protoss - 7 vs 11
Terran - 3 vs 10
At the very least with this you should see that zerg needs some help in this area, I could go on to say things like colossus are sort of a hard counter for ground units, but then things like that are sort of conditional so I won't bother.
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On August 16 2010 03:24 killa_robot wrote:
At the very least with this you should see that zerg needs some help in this area, I could go on to say things like tanks are a sort of hard counter to all ground units (save for like 2) and that colossus are sort of a hard counter for ground units as well, but then those are sort of conditional so I won't bother.
You realize that Zerg units would never simply gain free damage against a unit type right? Zerg units are balanced around doing the same damage against all unit types. They can't just suddenly start doing more damage against a particular unit or they would become imbalanced. What would happen is that they would do the same damage as they do now but instead of doing it to all units they would only do it against some units. AKA this would be a nerf. No thanks.
It amazes me how few people acknowledge that the marauder damage "bonus" is really just a damage penalty when not attacking armored units. Two marines cost less than a marauder, do more damage to armored units than a marauder and can also hit air units. How you justify the marauder damage "bonus" as anything other than a penalty is beyond me.
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i think salvage bunker should be a orbital command ability for like 15 energy.
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I'm a Terran player and I agree with the OP. I didnt play a lot of game, just high Plat(soon to be Diamond) but there are some games I played like shit against a Zerg opponent and still win. And I feel cheap when I push out with my army just to crush everything my Zerg opponent throw at me.
I think the one problem that Blizzard needs to fix the most is Zerg mobility. In BW Zerg was always a race of mobility, constanly looking for a good position to clam the Terran in the middle.
The other thing Blizzard needs to fix is Zerg early harrassment. I know its not BW but Zerg was positioned as weaker race(unit wise) in BW and still is in SC2. Zerg needs something to harrass Terran effectively and buy time for them to tech to high tier units....
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I would just like to say thanks to the OP for posting this. Terran players, you wanted proof of why ZvT makes us zerg players want to rip out our hair? Here it is.
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On August 15 2010 13:32 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 11:03 Saracen wrote:
At the moment, there doesn't exist a single top Zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine." Wow, I completely disagree. I've played players higher-ranked than MasterAsia and they have told me they think TvZ is fine. I played a very good Z player named EnvY last night who I talked to about TvZ balance. EnvY's ranked 84th on Blizzard's top 200 (which is more accurate than ladder rating - masterasia is 120th or something). The thing is just that the players who don't think it's imbalanced don't come and complain, so their voices aren't heard. EnvY explained that TvZ appears to be imbalanced because Terran's initial mid-game push is so hard to fight off (which it really is). The initial mech or bio push, before Z's options really start to open up, is challenging to fight off and not many people have fleshed out how to beat it. However, once that is over (and it will get increasingly easy as time goes on and methods have been developed), Z has a big advantage. I'm paraphrasing here, so if you read these forums, please clarify for me. He does think that ZvP is actually imbalanced though - but not ZvT. The mod edit and your post turned the entire argument into a big appeal to authority. Not to mention that not even whine threads get closed, so the mod edit isn't really saying anything. This post just set a tone for people to shut down arguments based on perceived authority bestowed by you/the moderating staff.
....seriously?
rankings get outdated by the hour... actually by the minute
you're referring to a week old top 200???
masterasia is much higher than envy
envy is definitely not a good player and far far from a "top" player
iechoic, you are one of the few terrans who argue so passionately against the perceived imbalance of tvz
its because you are bad a tvz
and you're trying to rationalize your repeated losses to zerg hence your vociferous opposition to these sorts of threads
i was holding back calling you out because i know you arent as awful as 90% of the terrans who whine in these constructive discussions, but christ
you are NOT good at tvz.. you dont have any credibility when it comes to this discussion (and envy doesn't either...)
note - neither do i
but i am not trying to announce my rank to the world to gain credibility
but I definitely have winning records vs you and envy
... and im fuckin bad
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On August 16 2010 03:35 GobIin wrote:
i think salvage bunker should be a orbital command ability for like 15 energy.
I wouldn't say bunkers are one of the main culprits. While extremely obnoxious they can be dealt with, unlike a lot of other things T can pull off.
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On August 16 2010 03:29 SnakeChomp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 03:24 killa_robot wrote:
At the very least with this you should see that zerg needs some help in this area, I could go on to say things like tanks are a sort of hard counter to all ground units (save for like 2) and that colossus are sort of a hard counter for ground units as well, but then those are sort of conditional so I won't bother. You realize that Zerg units would never simply gain free damage against a unit type right? Zerg units are balanced around doing the same damage against all unit types. They can't just suddenly start doing more damage against a particular unit or they would become imbalanced. What would happen is that they would do the same damage as they do now but instead of doing it to all units they would only do it against some units. AKA this would be a nerf. No thanks. It amazes me how few people acknowledge that the marauder damage "bonus" is really just a damage penalty when not attacking armored units. Two marines cost less than a marauder, do more damage to armored units than a marauder and can also hit air units. How you justify the marauder damage "bonus" as anything other than a penalty is beyond me.
What the hell is this? In one breath you try to say that zerg units getting bonus damage to anything would be imbalanced, and follow it up by saying marauder bonus to armored is really a penalty?
2 marines also have far fewer hit points then a marauder after the combat shield upgrade, get smoked by banelings, and can't burn down buildings/roaches like they're made of paper.
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On August 16 2010 03:35 GobIin wrote:
i think salvage bunker should be a orbital command ability for like 15 energy.
Won't be enough, since bunkers is not what make terran op.
I think they should put a big cooldown on mule, so it will be like spawn larva. You will not be able to miss a round.
Also it will force terran players to take expansion earlier, and put them at risk. At the moment they can turtle one base, spamming mules.
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On August 16 2010 03:24 killa_robot wrote:
And Finally Terran:
Marines - No bonus
Marauder - Bonus to armored
Reaper - Bonus to light
Ghost - Bonus to Light
Hellion - Bonus to Light
Tank - Bonus to armored when unsieged.
Thor - No bonus to ground, Bonus to Air - Light
Viking - Bonus to Armored - Air, No bonus to ground
Banshee - No bonus
BC - No bonus
I think i'm right
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Turns out I accidentally posted this in the wrong thread. *shrug*
I'm a low level Terran player, and I've read a lot about TvZ, and I've watched lots of high level replays, so even though I suck at the game, I'd like to think I'm not completely ignorant. Anyway, I just wanted to post some ideas I had to ameliorate the TvZ situation (assuming that there is an imbalance after all). Maybe the ideas all suck, but please don't flame meee!
Nerf turret damage, at least against bio units (so this would specifically be for buffing mutas)
Make a new building, maybe called the Academy as sort of a BW throwback, that is required before you can get any upgrades at any tech labs. This would delay things like siege, emp, stim, banshee cloak, etc., and nerf Terran a little bit in many way, but they'd still be capable of making those tech lab units. If this Academy is quick to build and low in mineral cost, it wouldn't be a hard nerf.
Make a new Zerg unit! I would love to see Zerg get more strats in every possible matchup, and a new unit would be fun. The trouble is of course figuring out what that unit should be... so if Idra or any other amazing Zerg player has any ideas, please share! =)
Make burrowed units take reduced damage (not my idea; I saw this somewhere, but I don't remember who)
Improve Zerg AI. Or maybe introduce a new button that will "attack only units of these type," so for example, if you have a bunch of zerglings surrounding a Thor surrounded by SCV's, you button press on the SCV and the lings will automatically switch to attack SCV's, without you having to queue attack them.
Lastly, from Idra himself...
On August 15 2010 14:12 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 14:09 SeaSmoke wrote:
IdrA, I hate balance suggestions, but your opinion on it is about the only one in the world that I'd be interested in hearing.
So...what would be your balance changes in ZvT? Would they be drastic? Or relatively subtle? they need to start by bringing back the phase 2 build time changes, reaper barracks zealot +5 seconds and the bunker back to 40 or w/e it was. those should have pretty significant effects so while other stuff may be needed we have to see what happens when that is changed first, because zergs early game 100% needs help.
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On August 16 2010 03:40 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 13:32 iEchoic wrote:On August 15 2010 11:03 Saracen wrote:
At the moment, there doesn't exist a single top Zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine." Wow, I completely disagree. I've played players higher-ranked than MasterAsia and they have told me they think TvZ is fine. I played a very good Z player named EnvY last night who I talked to about TvZ balance. EnvY's ranked 84th on Blizzard's top 200 (which is more accurate than ladder rating - masterasia is 120th or something). The thing is just that the players who don't think it's imbalanced don't come and complain, so their voices aren't heard. EnvY explained that TvZ appears to be imbalanced because Terran's initial mid-game push is so hard to fight off (which it really is). The initial mech or bio push, before Z's options really start to open up, is challenging to fight off and not many people have fleshed out how to beat it. However, once that is over (and it will get increasingly easy as time goes on and methods have been developed), Z has a big advantage. I'm paraphrasing here, so if you read these forums, please clarify for me. He does think that ZvP is actually imbalanced though - but not ZvT. The mod edit and your post turned the entire argument into a big appeal to authority. Not to mention that not even whine threads get closed, so the mod edit isn't really saying anything. This post just set a tone for people to shut down arguments based on perceived authority bestowed by you/the moderating staff. ....seriously? rankings get outdated by the hour... actually by the minute you're referring to a week old top 200??? masterasia is much higher than envy envy is definitely not a good player and far far from a "top" player iechoic, you are one of the few terrans who argue so passionately against the perceived imbalance of tvz its because you are bad a tvz and you're trying to rationalize your repeated losses to zerg hence your vociferous opposition to these sorts of threads i was holding back calling you out because i know you arent as awful as 90% of the terrans who whine in these constructive discussions, but christ you are NOT good at tvz.. you dont have any credibility when it comes to this discussion (and envy doesn't either...)
totally
as of 2:52pm eastern time 8/15/2010
masterasia: ranked 33, 1002points 89win 53 losses, win rate: 62.68%
envy: ranked 107, 872points 135win 97 losses, win rate: 58.19%
definitely the OP makes a great point regarding the specific problem that the zerg is facing - the lack of race characteristics. the zerg's mobility is too slow off creep, they're weak both in low number and high number,etc. where there was distiny characteristics of each race in BW - cost efficiency, mass units overwhelming opponent's army, early aggression advantage, in SC2, those characteristics are quite indistinct anymore.
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@OP
Good post i just have one correction. It's not a new "tank AI". It's performance issue. In SC every unit fired at the same time = lots of stuff happening at the screen at once = performance problems.
In sc2 they've made a little delay (1/16 to 1/8 second delay) between shooting (for all units), such that performance is better, less stuff happens at the screen at once. This leads into a problem, cos the first tank shots will kill a bunch of units, then they following tanks will shoot at new targets.
Hope i explained it well enough.
This was explained in the Dustin Browder interview.
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this may get me banned but imma say this nicely to those who have bashed this thread, honestly fuck off, this post is a great post and logically thought out. Every point he has made is reputable and neatly done, and if you dont agree with it then dont bash it, just nicely fuck off. Because if you do not play zerg towards the top of the ladder then understanding this post maybe hard for you to comprehend for those who have bashed this post. To the OP great post I agree with ya and I myself will not be making a change from Zerg to Terran, instead I have purchased a new comptuer so I am not playing on a shitty laptop ^.^ lol
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One thing I think would be incredibly beneficial to zerg play is a "target unit type" function to use while attacking units. What I mean by that is you might have a skirmish like this - the terran has done a thor rush and is pushing across the map with 1 thor and 10 SCVs on repair duty. The zerg player has a ball of zerglings.
How it plays out now: the zerg player issues an attack command on the thor or an attack move command past it. The SCVs step in to repair, the the zerglings retardedly run circles around the thor and die.
What the zerg player *has* to do to come out ahead: Select lings in groups of 4-5 and tell them each to attack an individual SCV, and do this for every SCV the terran brings along. After which, they can target the thor.
Basically, terran can issue one or two commands for two groups of units (thor and SCV) and force zerg into a situation where they need to execute perfectly a 300APM technique to come out ahead.
But if there was an attack group command, it would play out like this:
Zerg player selects his lings, hits "a", ctrl+clicks the SCVs. Zerglings are now set to prioritize all SCVs on the active game screen before anything else. The terran can choose to ball up the scvs and have them repair each other while the the thor takes shots, or god forbid, actually bring a hellion or two along and micro them against the lings rather than with with a single unit that can't be hard countered due to AI.
This would be incredibly useful as it would allow runbies on PFs or a position fortified by tanks to actually be possible (target SCVs, as opposed to the splash structure with 5 armor).
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all we can do is wait and pray blizzard does SOMETHING in the next patch to try and address the issues with ZvT because they definately exist... I am anxiously awaiting the next patch..
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Well on the brightside if every zerg goes terran, I will play vs terran about 80% of the time and they will play vs zerg about 10% of the time. Pretty sure then it will be my best matchup and they won't have much zerg prac and it will then be easy. until then.... lets uh fix terran
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On August 16 2010 03:45 GobIin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 03:24 killa_robot wrote:
And Finally Terran:
Marines - No bonus
Marauder - Bonus to armored
Reaper - Bonus to light
Ghost - Bonus to Light
Hellion - Bonus to Light
Tank - Bonus to armored when unsieged.
Thor - No bonus to ground, Bonus to Air - Light
Viking - Bonus to Armored - Air, No bonus to ground
Banshee - No bonus
BC - No bonus
I think i'm right
Lol, yea thats right I forgot bout that, thx.
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On August 16 2010 03:44 eH wrote:
What the hell is this? In one breath you try to say that zerg units getting bonus damage to anything would be imbalanced, and follow it up by saying marauder bonus to armored is really a penalty?
2 marines also have far fewer hit points then a marauder after the combat shield upgrade, get smoked by banelings, and can't burn down buildings/roaches like they're made of paper.
In the first breath I simply stated that Zerg units would never gain bonus damage vs a unit type without losing base damage to compensate; otherwise they would be imbalanced because they are balanced around their base damage vs all unit types. In other words they would be need to be nerfed in overall usefulness in order to gain "hard counteriness." I would rather our units not suffer for the sake of arbitrarily balancing the number of units that each race has with bonus damage.
And yes, the marauder bonus damage to armored is arguably just a penalty against light units. Do you disagree? Do zealots not smoke marauders for this exact reason?
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EPT
