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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On August 16 2010 03:24 killa_robot wrote: wall of text. Terran units have always been specialized, this was the case in SC1 also, the problem with them in SC2 is..they are too good against what they counter and they are also reaaaaaaaaaaaaally good against what they dont counter | ||
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Mnijykmirl
United States299 Posts
I think too many Zerg see this question of "what exactly is the problem?" and answer with: The most serious problem is I have very little fun playing Z v T. What would be fun, anyway? I am not happy with some of the designs of the races either, but bringing it to balance takes it too far. Furthermore, how are you so sure that you are playing Z v T to the best reality of the game? I find it difficult to believe that all Zerg have fully explored the match-up to so conclusively say the match-up is imbalanced, especially as some Zerg still continue to win at top level. TL;DR, too much talk, not enough play. There is a sour mindset growing in players, but it is not grounded. There needs to be evidence, in the form of games, that show Zerg losses beyond the control of Zerg. Not threads like this. | ||
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DashFlow
United Kingdom176 Posts
And i agree that tanks Ai should be lowered as it is in broodwar. | ||
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HubertFelix
France631 Posts
On August 16 2010 04:45 DashFlow wrote: I definatly agree zerg need more openers than ling speed, roaches and lair its just so limited.. And i agree that tanks Ai should be lowered as it is in broodwar. And baneling  It's the tech tree, it will never change. If you don't want to get lair before t2 units, don't play zerg. | ||
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mutantmagnet
United States3789 Posts
For each unit or unit combination of Zerg, Terran can find a very effective unit or unit combo to counter it hard. Ex. Muta - Thors/Ghosts, Broodlords - Vikings, Roaches - Marauders/Tanks, Hydra - Bio/Tanks/Thors, lings - Helions... unit combo: Muta&lings - bio/Thors&Helions, Roaches&Hydras - Marader&Tanks/Mech, Zerg everything together - Mech... Can't agree with the bolded. Brood lords are fine. It's just like tvz in BW where instead of worrying about the ratio of hydra/mutas against mech; you have to have the right ratio of corrupters/brood lords needed to decimate vikings while holding your own against ground. Once you gain air superiority you can convert wounded corrupters into broodlords and spawn new corrupters just in case. But I (and the few others who mentioned this) can be proven wrong. Show us a few solid air matches with differing ratios of corrupter/lords to reveal how problematic gaining air superiority is. As for the rest of the analysis I'm inclined to agree with the observations but I see more possible solutions than what's being implied. | ||
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HubertFelix
France631 Posts
On August 16 2010 04:48 mutantmagnet wrote: Can't agree with the bolded. Brood lords are fine. It's just like tvz in BW where instead of worrying about the ratio of hydra/mutas against mech; you have to have the right ratio of corrupters/brood lords needed to decimate vikings while holding your own against ground. Once you gain air superiority you can convert wounded corrupters into broodlords and spawn new corrupters just in case. The problem with broodlords/vikings is that broodlords are the only way for zerg to successfully attack a defensive terran (no more defilers). But vikings have the same range. So it's more sucessfull to just suicide a bunch of ultralisks. | ||
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ocius
United States3 Posts
So now you're left with FE + speedlings. This opener is effective, but still ends up being an uphill battle as you are unable to scout without saccing an Overlord (or two, if they're hiding their buildings and you get unlucky the first time), eating larvae, 100/200 minerals, and making you pre-emptively build Overlords just to prevent a supply block. The entire early game plan for ZvT is based around Overlord saccing for some info while trying to get your econ up and praying one of your Overlords (or a Xel'Naga tower, if your opponent lets you hold them...) gives you early enough warning that if a timing push comes (or Banshees, Vikings, or what-have-you), you'll have enough larvae/spine crawlers/lings/queens/etc out to survive to see the mid-game. After that, you have a few more options, but then you get to bash your head against a bio/mech or pure mech ball for a while. | ||
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cerebralz
United States443 Posts
And yes, the marauder bonus damage to armored is arguably just a penalty against light units. Do you disagree? Do zealots not smoke marauders for this exact reason? No, zealots do not smoke marauders. You have to qualify that zealots in large numbers with charge, beat marauders. But not in small numbers, and not when concussive shells activates every time. As to zerg bonus damage, I disagree that zerg is balanced with enough dps. Especially not enough to overcome medivac healing or scv repair. I've said for a long time that the roach or some other unit needs a DoT effect vs armored after each attack (not stackable). That way after the unit dies, there is a small chance it could still have done its job to kill the opposing unit. It would definitely help the OP point of reinforcing units in small numbers after a large battle. The opponent's weakened units would be forced to retreat/repair-heal, giving a small window for the zerg to re-macro. | ||
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latan
740 Posts
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holy_war
United States3590 Posts
On August 16 2010 05:03 latan wrote: well... maybe it's time to realize this is only a videogame after all. "this is only a videogame after all." Right... There's tens of thousands of dollars in tournament prizes/sponsorship pumped into this game right now. So your argument is invalid. | ||
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Buddhist
United States658 Posts
Really, how can you contain a zerg who uses nydus? You can't. The zerg can easily move his entire army to some other place on the map, then hit the contain from the rear, or just march into the enemy's main, or just expand somewhere, etc. I don't disbelieve that ZvT is imbalanced, but until I see really skilled nydus play, with near-perfect macro in a ZvT at the pro level, then I won't be convinced. On August 16 2010 05:08 holy_war wrote: "this is only a videogame after all." Right... There's tens of thousands of dollars in tournament prizes/sponsorship pumped into this game right now. So your argument is invalid. Hundreds of thousands.* | ||
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Qwerty.
United States292 Posts
On August 16 2010 05:03 latan wrote: well... maybe it's time to realize this is only a videogame after all. when Gom/Blizz put 500K this year and 1M next year into their tournament alone, it no longer becomes just a videogame | ||
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Teejing
Germany1360 Posts
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HubertFelix
France631 Posts
On August 16 2010 05:11 Teejing wrote: Problem is when i surround a terranball with zerglings, they just die...so useless compared to sc1 That's why there are banelings/fungal growth in sc2. | ||
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Neelson
Germany5 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On August 16 2010 05:09 Buddhist wrote: This has probably been mentioned before, but I simply don't see nydus abused like it should be. It is a simply incredible mobility tool. You don't have to use it just to backdoor the enemy. You can use it to connect expos, escape contains, flank armies, etc. Really, how can you contain a zerg who uses nydus? You can't. The zerg can easily move his entire army to some other place on the map, then hit the contain from the rear, or just march into the enemy's main, or just expand somewhere, etc. I don't disbelieve that ZvT is imbalanced, but until I see really skilled nydus play, with near-perfect macro in a ZvT at the pro level, then I won't be convinced. Hundreds of thousands.* You walk up to his main and destroy everything while he can't get into your base because of PF and siege tanks. Nydus isn't an answer to the problem. Zerg on 3/4 bases is fine it's the zerg on 1 -> 2 that's the issue. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
I find it difficult to believe that all Zerg have fully explored the match-up to so conclusively say the match-up is imbalanced, especially as some Zerg still continue to win at top level. TL;DR, too much talk, not enough play. There is a sour mindset growing in players, but it is not grounded. There needs to be evidence, in the form of games, that show Zerg losses beyond the control of Zerg. Not threads like this. This is an absolutely ridiculous argument that is brought up all too often. What the fuck do you think professionals do? Sit on their asses all day complaining? No. Pro SC2 Zergs (and other aspiring pro's that just play all day) actually DO play games and try to find ways to get over this shit, and they haven't found any. That's why this conversation has come up - because basically every top-tier Zerg acknowledges this problem. Really, go ahead and try to think of anything that will work. Thought of something yet? Oh, wait, it won't work, because pro's have tried everything. It has been explained many, many times how basically everything under the sun gets rocked by proper Terran play. I don't think you'll see players like Dimaga and Sheth saying that they might switch just on a whim - pro's will try to find a solution to their problem until their isn't one because switching races is a last-ditch effort for pro's. Not only that, there have been plenty of games shown in plenty of threads that there's a problem with ZvT. People like you just continue to ignore the evidence. This has probably been mentioned before, but I simply don't see nydus abused like it should be. It is a simply incredible mobility tool. You don't have to use it just to backdoor the enemy. You can use it to connect expos, escape contains, flank armies, etc. Really, how can you contain a zerg who uses nydus? You can't. The zerg can easily move his entire army to some other place on the map, then hit the contain from the rear, or just march into the enemy's main, or just expand somewhere, etc. I don't disbelieve that ZvT is imbalanced, but until I see really skilled nydus play, with near-perfect macro in a ZvT at the pro level, then I won't be convinced. You must be new to this kind of discussion. Nydus has been tried. It fails. Why? Because it sucks ass. A Nydus Worm can be killed by a small handful of workers in the time it takes to spawn. It is probably the only ability in the game that relies on your opponents failures 100% to actually work. Not only that, it costs a shitload. Sure, it can exploit weakness, but if anyone is playing to full potential, Nydus is basically useless and a huge gas sink. Not only that, even if you do pop it up by some miracle, your units stream out one at a time and his army will still roll yours. Please, read these threads more before you make these suggestions. They've all been made before and it's been explained (several times) as to why they're bad ideas. | ||
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Twaxter
Canada190 Posts
I win like 1/3 of the games with Terran, but only if the Terran makes mistakes, if he playing properly, I always lose. If a game gets late game, I seriously have to make 940875043793 zerglings, and I have to keep pumping larva, and get like double the bases. Its the most boring thing ever, I can't just simply hard counter, like in zvp. Its the most fustrating match up I have, and every time I see the loading screen on ladder versus a terran, I feel like crying. ^ okay that maybe taking it too far, but you get the point  and then I watch the reply, and see that his apm was half of mine.  | ||
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Buddhist
United States658 Posts
On August 16 2010 05:15 Numy wrote: You walk up to his main and destroy everything while he can't get into your base because of PF and siege tanks. Nydus isn't an answer to the problem. Zerg on 3/4 bases is fine it's the zerg on 1 -> 2 that's the issue. The zerg doesn't have to get into a sieged up main, he can out-expand the Terran. If the Terran tries to move out, that's when you use nydus to abuse T's immobility. You can try backdoors, or just flanks. This is all theorycraft, but I don't think the issue is being gone about appropriately. On August 16 2010 05:18 Stratos_speAr wrote: You must be new to this kind of discussion. Nydus has been tried. It fails. Why? Because it sucks ass. A Nydus Worm can be killed by a small handful of workers in the time it takes to spawn. It is probably the only ability in the game that relies on your opponents failures 100% to actually work. Not only that, it costs a shitload. Sure, it can exploit weakness, but if anyone is playing to full potential, Nydus is basically useless and a huge gas sink. Not only that, even if you do pop it up by some miracle, your units stream out one at a time and his army will still roll yours. Please, read these threads more before you make these suggestions. They've all been made before and it's been explained (several times) as to why they're bad ideas. I don't think you read my post. Try again, please. Hint: The third sentence of my post. | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On August 16 2010 05:13 HubertFelix wrote: That's why there are banelings/fungal growth in sc2. There's swarm/plague/ensnare in sc1 too. Fact of the matter is, unmicroed marines kill large quantities of microed zerglings even given perfect surrounds, whereas in sc1 that would definitely not be the case. The 15 hp increase/decrease in zergling DPS just makes an absurd difference. | ||
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