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it definitely eats away greatly at your ability to macro, but the nagging issue with zerg is you have to do what keeps you alive the longest, not whats best for your strategy, which is completely bullshit. you constantly have to make radical deviations from strategies just to stay alive.
terran AND protoss can easily defend early game but there are a fucking plethora of things the races can do to just get an abusive win and be done with the game in 9 minutes flat or throw at least some fucking gravel in your engine for a relatively cheap price.
im not trying to knock on silver because hes actually a pretty skilled terran, but i cant count the number of TvZ games ive seen him play where he does some pseudo allin tank marine hellion push and gets a free win in under 10 minutes.
EDIT: for grammar
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The problem with players who argue when they don't have a legitimate backing is the more white noise you add to a thread, the less complete it looks. Hellions for example are too effective risk-reward in TvZ. Terran early game especially on some maps against Zerg is too lopsided due to flexibility of T1.5 and T2 compared to Zerg. Yes, these are legitimate issues.
But let's look at some of these proposed arguments,
"For each unit or unit combination of Zerg, Terran can find a very effective unit or unit combo to counter it hard. Ex. Muta - Thors/Ghosts, Broodlords - Vikings, Roaches - Marauders/Tanks, Hydra - Bio/Tanks/Thors, lings - Helions... unit combo: Muta&lings - bio/Thors&Helions, Roaches&Hydras - Marader&Tanks/Mech, Zerg everything together - Mech..."
This is just a flat out exaggeration. ZvT never works in a unit vacuum where a Terran will hard counter your unit production every single time. The issue has always been that a terran soft counter is often stable enough to not lose the game.
"
If a game gets late game, I seriously have to make 940875043793 zerglings, and I have to keep pumping larva, and get like double the bases. Its the most boring thing ever, I can't just simply hard counter, like in zvp. "
O RLY, over 9000 zerglings? If I double a terran base's and get to late game, it BOGGLES my mind how you cannot say you don't have a fighting chance without making that many zerglings. Zerg late game against terran is actually quite decent.
"Basically, terran can issue one or two commands for two groups of units (thor and SCV) and force zerg into a situation where they need to execute perfectly a 300APM technique to come out ahead."
300 APM technique. Enough said. I would LOVE to see these 300 APM techniques first hand from these plat-mid diamond players.
The list goes on and on and on. And every time one of these arguments goes up it just makes me cringe because it just exaggerates the original post so much more.
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On August 16 2010 06:44 KissBlade wrote:
"For each unit or unit combination of Zerg, Terran can find a very effective unit or unit combo to counter it hard. Ex. Muta - Thors/Ghosts, Broodlords - Vikings, Roaches - Marauders/Tanks, Hydra - Bio/Tanks/Thors, lings - Helions... unit combo: Muta&lings - bio/Thors&Helions, Roaches&Hydras - Marader&Tanks/Mech, Zerg everything together - Mech..."
im sorry but thats not an exaggeration, when i played t thats exactly howd id approach mid/late game situation, "i counter this with this and that with that" and id win 75% of tvz's.
EDIT: all i can say is go test those unit matchups up in relatively equivalent numbers, hell go test it when a zerg is up 30 food and the terran has ass positioning, ive been up by some dumb fuck numbers and been beaten by some ass clown that chills on 2 base for 25-30 minutes.
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On August 16 2010 06:44 KissBlade wrote:
The problem with players who argue when they don't have a legitimate backing is the more white noise you add to a thread, the less complete it looks. Hellions for example are too effective risk-reward in TvZ. Terran early game especially on some maps against Zerg is too lopsided due to flexibility of T1.5 and T2 compared to Zerg. Yes, these are legitimate issues.
But let's look at some of these proposed arguments,
"For each unit or unit combination of Zerg, Terran can find a very effective unit or unit combo to counter it hard. Ex. Muta - Thors/Ghosts, Broodlords - Vikings, Roaches - Marauders/Tanks, Hydra - Bio/Tanks/Thors, lings - Helions... unit combo: Muta&lings - bio/Thors&Helions, Roaches&Hydras - Marader&Tanks/Mech, Zerg everything together - Mech..."
This is just a flat out exaggeration. ZvT never works in a unit vacuum where a Terran will hard counter your unit production every single time. The issue has always been that a terran soft counter is often stable enough to not lose the game.
"
If a game gets late game, I seriously have to make 940875043793 zerglings, and I have to keep pumping larva, and get like double the bases. Its the most boring thing ever, I can't just simply hard counter, like in zvp. "
O RLY, over 9000 zerglings? If I double a terran base's and get to late game, it BOGGLES my mind how you cannot say you don't have a fighting chance without making that many zerglings. Zerg late game against terran is actually quite decent.
"Basically, terran can issue one or two commands for two groups of units (thor and SCV) and force zerg into a situation where they need to execute perfectly a 300APM technique to come out ahead."
300 APM technique. Enough said. I would LOVE to see these 300 APM techniques first hand from these plat-mid diamond players.
The list goes on and on and on. And every time one of these arguments goes up it just makes me cringe because it just exaggerates the original post so much more.
The counters listed above are NOT exaggeration. You have CLEARLY no clue what you are talking about if you think this is exaggeration. I'm not justifying this because you already did.
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I do think there's a TvZ imbalance and I'm a T player...unlike some people have said I think the imbalance is actually more at mid level play than top level. This is due to the fact that zerg has to work a lot harder to come out ahead in the game whether its in micro or macro and mid level players don't have great mechanics. I'm not gonna get into what's broken and what should be fixed because plenty of better players have already done that. I do hope that Blizz fixes it because its getting really boring when 70% of ur games are TvT. Actually considered switching to toss to get some variety -_-
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On August 16 2010 06:47 raph wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 06:44 KissBlade wrote:
"For each unit or unit combination of Zerg, Terran can find a very effective unit or unit combo to counter it hard. Ex. Muta - Thors/Ghosts, Broodlords - Vikings, Roaches - Marauders/Tanks, Hydra - Bio/Tanks/Thors, lings - Helions... unit combo: Muta&lings - bio/Thors&Helions, Roaches&Hydras - Marader&Tanks/Mech, Zerg everything together - Mech..."
im sorry but thats not an exaggeration, when i played t thats exactly howd id approach mid/late game situation, "i counter this with this and that with that" and id win 75% of tvz's. EDIT: all i can say is go test those unit matchups up in relatively equivalent numbers, hell go test it when a zerg is up 30 food and the terran has ass positioning, ive been up by some dumb fuck numbers and been beaten by some ass clown that chills on 2 base for 25-30 minutes..
You took a very SMALL part of what I wrote on that and tried to quote that alone. I didn't state that the counters don't exist but you don't walk out with your Z army and POOF there's an INSTANT terran counter there already standing in place. I mean, dear god really? If the terran hard counters your army, you wont' win it? I mean DAMN, that's the surprise of a life time. The big problem isn't the hard counter system. The big problem is the fact that terrans can guess wrong and can build up to a hard counter in the mean time.
^^ Double goes for you too.
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The zerg doesn't have to get into a sieged up main, he can out-expand the Terran. If the Terran tries to move out, that's when you use nydus to abuse T's immobility. You can try backdoors, or just flanks.
This is all theorycraft, but I don't think the issue is being gone about appropriately.
The bolded part is the main point. Everything you're saying is theorycraft that is consistently proved wrong by actual play.
I don't think you read my post. Try again, please. Hint: The third sentence of my post.
Connect expo's? Flank? Right. Because a Nydus Worm spitting out one unit at a time can effectively defend a sudden push on your expo, and if he notices that you're trying to flank him at all, he just moves into your undefended base. Not only that, the Nydus Worm still takes 20 seconds to spawn and costs 100 gas each. That's 1) a resource sink and 2) you're still relying on him not seeing your Nydus Worm at all. That's just bad design of a unit. Oh, oh, and lets not forget that the Worm roars no matter where it is on the map.
Not only that, how are you actually getting to this point with a solid economy? You're failing to explain that.
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I'm sorry but did that guy just say Ghosts are used to counter Mutas and Thors are used to counter Hydras?....
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I suggest to you all to make this kind of thread on the B.net forum too just because Blizzard will release a lot of patches and obviously is waiting for your feedback.
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that was the only section that dealt with true unit matchups and that was a list of what the op wrote. i didnt in any way address the other sections of your post because im not concerned with someone compairing mechanics issues and having a billion zerglings.
the main issue is that relatively equivalently priced armies are hugely lopsided in power.
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On August 16 2010 06:54 GodIsNotHere wrote:
I'm sorry but did that guy just say Ghosts are used to counter Mutas and Thors are used to counter Hydras?....
thors 2 shot hydras and ghosts 3-4 ghosts snipe through plenty of mutas
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Yeah, the OP needs to be posted on Blizzard forums.
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On August 16 2010 06:57 raph wrote:
that was the only section that dealt with true unit matchups and that was a list of what the op wrote. i didnt in any way address the other sections of your post because im not concerned with someone compairing mechanics issues and having a billion zerglings.
the main issue is that relatively equivalently priced armies are hugely lopsided in power.
Two queens will handily beat two banshees. I think banshees need buff because they're priced more expensive. Do you see why the previous statement is retarded?
To clarify, I am not saying the hard counter system doesn't favor the terran, it's just really damn stupid that people are using the argument and applying it totally irrationally. The original argument was put in place because terran army hard counters without being able to fall to a zerg alternative hard counter. That is completely true. But for people to take it and be like, "I can't win because anything I build the terran always has a counter ready" is so stupid because it completely distorts the original point. It is /risk reward/ not flat mineral costs that the original point was getting to.
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On August 16 2010 06:58 raph wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 06:54 GodIsNotHere wrote:
I'm sorry but did that guy just say Ghosts are used to counter Mutas and Thors are used to counter Hydras?.... thors 2 shot hydras and ghosts 3-4 ghosts snipe through plenty of mutas
Except hydras in a small group will eat a thor alive its just not an effective counter at all and the day someone goes "Oh hes getting mutas... Time to get some ghosts!" instead of just getting marines I'll punch a kitten.
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While I agree that Z doesn't have alot of options and I can't stand playing ZvT (in my T games, I feel like I have to do nothing to roll a zerg), you correctly said it took a few weeks for Terran to really start exploiting Zerg. Do you think it's worth waiting a few more weeks for Zerg to evolve a bit more? The game isn't that old so not every viable option could have been explored by the zerg, because not even the Terran pros have gone through every viable strategy. It's not like every pro who plays Terra is just that much slower then a Zerg pro.
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Just saw dimage 1a'ing his army into a T army. The T army had 20 supply more, but dimaga destroyed it (by just 1a'ing). Then you get responses like: yes but the T went bio and dimaga had banelings!
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two queens dont beat two banshees, and if you think 5 roaches losing to 1 thor is fair youre nuts, wasting 5 larvae has a much bigger impact on zerg than terran wasting time off one of their many factories
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On August 16 2010 07:03 Dente wrote:
Just saw dimage 1a'ing his army into a T army. The T army had 20 supply more, but dimaga destroyed it (by just 1a'ing). Then you get responses like: yes but the T went bio and dimaga had banelings!
See this is a good point!, Zerg loves to complain about mech but terran doesn't have many other options since Bio gets destroyed by any Zerg with half a brain.
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On August 16 2010 07:05 raph wrote:
two queens dont beat two banshees, and if you think 5 roaches losing to 1 thor is fair youre nuts, wasting 5 larvae has a much bigger impact on zerg than terran wasting time off one of their many factories
How does two queens not beat two banshees?
And I agree, roach vs thor is awful.
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On August 16 2010 07:07 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 07:05 raph wrote:
two queens dont beat two banshees, and if you think 5 roaches losing to 1 thor is fair youre nuts, wasting 5 larvae has a much bigger impact on zerg than terran wasting time off one of their many factories How does two queens not beat two banshees?
Maybe the Zerg player doesn't know what transfuse does? dunno
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EPT
