On August 16 2010 07:11 orangejuice wrote: I think many people whine too much about the overall weakness of zerg. I play zerg (lower level diamond) and for the most part things feel ok, if you want to choose a race which revolves around containment, reaction and flexibility zerg is probably for you.
However it is true that zerg has fewer units and fewer options of play styles as a result. For that matter you do not see many threads which complain about zerg being overpowered... More importantly the razors edge that good zerg players have to take with economy vs army production is inherently unstable. To win later on you must be vulnerable early in the game. It just seems that zerg does not feel like a swarming race right now hence my balance suggestion.
Leave all units the way they are which is pretty damn close to being balanced and instead increase the spawn rates of larvae and maybe for fun throw in another larvae on the spawn larvae ability.
So what are the upsides to this.
A zerg player can balance easier between choosing drones or units.
Early game all-in rushes are easier to defend against.
You actually feel like you can build an army.
At the same time you are still restricted to the resources available to you.
Most importantly it is a shadow buff. Zerg will simply feel stronger, no specific unit will get stupidly overpowered and as a result spammed and the renerfed. It is just a subtle boost which could greatly improve the feel and balance of the race.
Feel free to flame, comment or counterpoint. It just seemed like a good way to address a very complicated balancing situation.
This doesn't really deal with Zerg's teching issues, which are require a decent amount of time and scouting to do unless you plan on wasting larva and resources making potentially unnecessary stuff "just in case." Even with extra larva, you're still spending money on things that don't necessarily help you win the game, simply help reduce the chance of you losing it.
Zerg simply needs a more robust unit lineup. A small tweak here and there would help it; terran can potentially upset the TvP game (of which I'm not terribly informed), buffing zerg seems like the most natural answer. The buffs probably ought not be sweeping and huge, but with a map pool that favours cliffs overlooking bases (which should change with time, since it will be largely user driven), zerg lacks avenues to get large concaves with their armies. Since they cannot do that, their units do not scale well due to their melee/short range nature. A cliff-walking harass unit would be an interesting addition, and putting it fairly low in the tech tree would actually allow for more than the very few potential openings for zerg. I'm not necessarily suggesting that it's completely necessarily, but with the current awful map pools, it is definitely an option.
Agreed, nice to see someone who is on the same page as me. Terran and Protoss are NOT OP. I never said they were (I think, I don't think I did.)
Zerg is just more FLAWED compared to the other races.
If you get someone that says Nerf X and buff Y. Total bias arguement.
In our case we say SMALL buff to Y. Leave X alone because we are playing a game that has 3 races. If we buffed one then nerfed the other, we`ll have the same problem. This wouldn't be a ZxT thread anymore, It would be something like TxP or PxZ.
So to all of you to say NERF TERRAN and buff ZERG. Stop posting useless comments.
I have one point to note-- I had a game on scrap station vs a T who rushed BC's. I went 1 base muta. By the time my muta got to his base (yes they went directly to the terran base), his BC was out ready to defend against the muta attack. I was absolutely in awe at how fast they can get T3.
On August 16 2010 07:33 trypt wrote: I have one point to note-- I had a game on scrap station vs a T who rushed BC's. I went 1 base muta. By the time my muta got to his base (yes they went directly to the terran base), his BC was out ready to defend against the muta attack. I was absolutely in awe at how fast they can get T3.
The FASTEST I have EVER gotten my 5x mutas out was at 5 minutes. EVER.
This was on a 2s map so I have a defence backup but if I did that in a 1v1 I would get SLAUGHTERED by a few rines.
In this case he could block, obviously and have rines to back it up.
When we could have 1-2 Spines or 12 lings.
Terran + Protoss can block off with little amounts of units possible and still defend against a horde of lings early game. This will result in fast teching to X.
Where we can tech up fast but we have NO defence against ground units because we can't block.
EDIT: Not saying that we need block, don't flame me for the "block" issue. Not saying that blocking is OP.
i think the biggest problem might be worker ai. if i'm not mistaken all workers mine at the same speed now which wasn't the case in sc1. it takes 50 workers to fully saturate 2 bases no matter what race you are so even if you are on 4 base as a zerg if you don't have 100 drones you aren't fully utilizing them all.
that's a significant difference from sc1 where 4 bases began showing larger returns due to less efficient worker ai. to counteract terran cost efficiency scvs were probably the worst miners with extremely long acceleration and deceleration, that meant to fully utilize 2 base in sc1 you needed a ton more workers because of scv travel time.
in sc1 it was a common occurence to have ~12 drones per base mid game because it made mining that much more efficient. in sc2 having 12 drones per base makes no sense because you're just spreading yourself thin and not actually improving your economy.
i think an easy fix for this would be to lower the number of mineral patches per base, this way zerg expansions will actually give them a strong advantage over 2 base terran without having to have 100 supply of drones. in addition, this also makes MULEs more effective which means missing a MULE hurts even more.
i also have to say as a zerg player in sc1 that i hate the creep mechanic. it forces zergs to slow push with creep which makes no sense to me and when you think about it, even if we makes maps larger zergs will still have to spread creep in order to effectively use the space. i wouldn't mind seeing speed on creep nerfed in order to see speed off creep buffed (at least the hydra!). requiring a zerg to have nearly complete map control in order to have their backbone damage dealer be anywhere near mobile kind of sucks.
On August 16 2010 07:15 Qeet wrote: if you expect balance changes, it's either buffing some t units to have a chance against ultralisks or a nerf of said unit. t is still weaker then the other races, z or p are winning tourneys t gets raped by ultralisks.. just look at"Race distribution by league" http://sc2ranks.com/stats it's more likely for a z to be in diamond then anywhere else for t it's the opposite they will end up in bronze btw you shouldn't value dimaga/idra/artosis too much. dimaga cheated in tsl2 and got banned, idra and artosis are well know for imba crying since they played tvp the first time in bw(carries and dt)
I can't believe someone actually thinks in this fashion…
"it's more likely for a z to be in diamond then anywhere else"
From the link YOU posted.. Race distribution by league: Diamond Random- 10.18% Protoss- 35.30% Terran- 30.25% Zerg- 24.27%
So by more likely to be in diamond then anyone else you mean zerg has the lowest percentage outside of random correct? I think you really deserve a warning.
And you don't want us to listen to top zerg players, yet do you hear of terran players who switched to zerg saying it's fine? If not then maybe there's a reason for that right? Hm...
Mahnini - Most amazing post I have seen in awhile. I never thought of worker AI being the issue with large drone supply problems. Also creep should be an advantage not a disadvantage when not on it. Creep only serves to reduce the mobility of Zerg. Seems very strange
The issue with the races now I don't think can be fixed with just small tweaking. The design of the races is just wrong. Terran having the best defensive capabilities as well as the best offensive is an obvious hole in the design. Zerg having to use creep to gain mobility instead of creep increasing mobility after the fact is another.
On August 16 2010 07:44 mahnini wrote: i think the biggest problem might be worker ai. if i'm not mistaken all workers mine at the same speed now which wasn't the case in sc1. it takes 50 workers to fully saturate 2 bases no matter what race you are so even if you are on 4 base as a zerg if you don't have 100 drones you aren't fully utilizing them all.
that's a significant difference from sc1 where 4 bases began showing larger returns due to less efficient worker ai. to counteract terran cost efficiency scvs were probably the worst miners with extremely long acceleration and deceleration, that meant to fully utilize 2 base in sc1 you needed a ton more workers because of scv travel time.
in sc1 it was a common occurence to have ~12 drones per base mid game because it made mining that much more efficient. in sc2 having 12 drones per base makes no sense because you're just spreading yourself thin and not actually improving your economy.
i think an easy fix for this would be to lower the number of mineral patches per base, this way zerg expansions will actually give them a strong advantage over 2 base terran without having to have 100 supply of drones. in addition, this also makes MULEs more effective which means missing a MULE hurts even more.
i also have to say as a zerg player in sc1 that i hate the creep mechanic. it forces zergs to slow push with creep which makes no sense to me and when you think about it, even if we makes maps larger zergs will still have to spread creep in order to effectively use the space. i wouldn't mind seeing speed on creep nerfed in order to see speed off creep buffed (at least the hydra!). requiring a zerg to have nearly complete map control in order to have their backbone damage dealer be anywhere near mobile kind of sucks.
I wasn't even thinking of that factor. This could be our problem changer right here, the reason why Terrans win is because they have faster teching upgrades.
If we kill economy by taking less mineral fields out - this will force them not to rely on heavily on the "blocking" and turtle then tech.
Props to you. Best reply/thought I have seen so far.
On August 16 2010 07:15 Qeet wrote: if you expect balance changes, it's either buffing some t units to have a chance against ultralisks or a nerf of said unit. t is still weaker then the other races, z or p are winning tourneys t gets raped by ultralisks.. just look at"Race distribution by league" http://sc2ranks.com/stats it's more likely for a z to be in diamond then anywhere else for t it's the opposite they will end up in bronze btw you shouldn't value dimaga/idra/artosis too much. dimaga cheated in tsl2 and got banned, idra and artosis are well know for imba crying since they played tvp the first time in bw(carries and dt)
I can't believe someone actually thinks in this fashion…
"it's more likely for a z to be in diamond then anywhere else"
From the link YOU posted.. Race distribution by race: Diamond Random- 10.18% Protoss- 35.30% Terran- 30.25% Zerg- 24.27%
So by more likely to be in diamond then anyone else you mean zerg has the lowest percentage outside of random correct? I think you really deserve a warning.
And you don't want us to listen to top zerg players, yet do you hear of terran players who switched to zerg saying it's fine? If not then maybe there's a reason for that right? Hm...
Lewl, sews pwnt. It's replies like his that doesn't help this argument thread at ALL. He just throws random facts cause PROS can do eet.
I witnessed some of these points becoming quite clear and true today and yesterday in my games.
A week ago I had very little trouble dealing with Terrans, because I was simply more mechanically skilled than them. Recently I played a few Terrans who knew a bit better and seriously, it is not fun to deal with... When a Terran starts playing around with Thors and Tanks in the late game it has to be one of the most aggravating things to deal with.
And yeah like what people have said before. You the Zerg player can make A LOT less mistakes than the Terran, however, if the Zerg players makes just a few too many, like for example- barely losing one battle. The Terran can just come around and walk over you.
I play toss, (just for background) and I agree, Zerg needs a buff and terran needs a nerf. The only thing that I see wrong with this is that if you change zerg to be better, it messes up PvZ, which right now is really balanced and fun to play, and PvT would be hurt too, (except that terran is imba against toss too, frickin EMPs).
My point is that if they were to fix the imbalance, it would mess up every match up...which would change the game a lot.
On August 16 2010 06:54 GodIsNotHere wrote: I'm sorry but did that guy just say Ghosts are used to counter Mutas and Thors are used to counter Hydras?....
thors 2 shot hydras and ghosts 3-4 ghosts snipe through plenty of mutas
Except hydras in a small group will eat a thor alive its just not an effective counter at all and the day someone goes "Oh hes getting mutas... Time to get some ghosts!" instead of just getting marines I'll punch a kitten.
On August 16 2010 06:54 GodIsNotHere wrote: I'm sorry but did that guy just say Ghosts are used to counter Mutas and Thors are used to counter Hydras?....
thors 2 shot hydras and ghosts 3-4 ghosts snipe through plenty of mutas
Except hydras in a small group will eat a thor alive its just not an effective counter at all and the day someone goes "Oh hes getting mutas... Time to get some ghosts!" instead of just getting marines I'll punch a kitten.
who has 1 thor by itself.
It's the same logic of several hydras can take out a siege tank easily....oh wait, who has 1 siege tank by itself?
On August 15 2010 12:23 sacrificetheory wrote: NP needs to be reverted to permanent. or if it stays 12 secs, castable while burrowed. I would also like to see a burrowed energy regeneration speed upgrade for infestors. maybe come with the +50 starting energy upgrade. but bump the cost a little.
NP is already castable while burrowed (there was a thread about this bug on TL a while ago). I have tried using it a few times, but the 12 seconds is still way too short for it to be effective. (I am rank 13 000 in the world diamond)
Furthermore I completely agree with the OP and think something needs to be changed. Im sure Blizzard is aware of this issue.
I'd like to point out what some other people been saying - map design. Most Blizzard maps completely disregard the balance relationship between the races/units/timings, and just makes everything for everyone. Backdoor in case of those pesky wall-ins, higher ledges for drops, height variations for Colossus and Reapers, in-accessible spaces to give your air units a rest, space behind the minerals for static defenses, tighter spaces for units who cherish that, a bit more open spaces for bigger ambushes, sight blockers for small ambushes, and many, many more.
The problem being, most of the time there is no map flow. Real open spaces are hard to find, and even then they are followed by very tight spaces. Backdoor, even if it exists, quite often is placed in a random corner. Delta Quadrant even replaces the backdoor with a pocket of an expansion right by your main.
It seems that Blizzard put in most of the things in just to have them checked off the list. Ever played 2fort in TF2? Can you tell me what's wrong with the map?
I think balance analyses of units - or even combinations of units - is something of a red herring here. As the OP outlines, it's more the fact that T gets the best tools for turtling AND the best and most varied tools for harassment AND the best tools for recovering from harassment, while his Z opponent is obliged to simply sit there, play conservatively and soak it up as best he can. There's literally nothing a Zerg player can do before Tier 2.5 to harass or intimidate a T opponent. The principle imbalance is in the degree to which one race is free to dictate play.
I don't know what the answer is, but I do have an idea I'd love to see tried: moving the overlord upgrades (apart from Overseer) to the Evolution Chamber, and requiring a Spawning Pool rather than a Lair. The timings of the upgrades might need to be adjusted to compensate.
What does this accomplish? Several things:
1. It allows Z to threaten drop-harass earlier (how much earlier depends upon the adjusted research times) and more cheaply, at a time when safely countering that threat places a more significant burden upon his T opponent's economy than it does at present, and when harassment can actually achieve something other than freeing up supply.
2. T now has to actually care what his opponent is doing in the early game. He can blind counter early drops with fast turrets or more marines, at the risk of giving a teching/expanding Z an economic lead. He can expend energy on scans, or units on scouting, at his own economic expense. Or he can take a chance and blindly tech/power behind his wall-in like he does now.
3. It relieves the hatchery of two burdensome upgrades, giving Z more flexibility in the mid-game.
4. It gives Z the opportunity to abuse T's all-seeing scans with clever timing: "OMG HE CANCELLED THE EVO CHAMBER RIGHT AFTER THE SCAN!"
The idea is not to give Z a huge boost, just to give them options and make T take them seriously at Tier 1.5. What do you think?
I dont see why Terrans complain their race is not overpowered? Im a Zerg player, and I enjoy the challenge of playing against people as good as me but the porblem is, when you are better in every possible way to your opponent and you still lose, its just frustrating, I mean ive been playing random lately, and even though im far worse with other races (toss and terran) in terms of APM, strategies, micro knowledge, etc.... I get more wins with those races. Also dont say "derp you are better with the other races", its just watching replays, I know im better with zerg, and still can win. Whats so hard to accept the game needs a balance, I mean if you want to win and feel proud about it just play balanced, if you keep complaining its ok you are just basically playing in favour, therefore not doing anything better than the other you just simply rape them
On August 16 2010 08:16 oxxo wrote: How is this comparison fair? He's comparing BC vs Hydra and stuff. Why is he ignoring Broodlords/ultras/infestors? Because he's biased.
This may not be a whine whine thread, but it's not very objective. What I mentioned is just one of many such things in his argument.
Yes he removed ultras, infestors and broodlords.
BUT
You tell me this, when would we even HAVE the time to build those when u got banshees and T3 units when we only have muta or hydra or infestors.
It's not bias, he's being real.
He's being real but although at the same time playing Theorycraft.
Read other comments and replies before even to start pointing fingers at him.
1) nerf to hellions. instead of shooting a laser being like it does now, maybe make it like a vulture in sc2. (dont htink ti'll break tvp mech. just cant go pure tank/hellion) 2) maybe slight buff to zergling (may have some detrimental effect to pvz) 3) lower maurader damage to buildings (dont change much, allows zerg to sunken d more) 4) lower repairing speed
I don't know if these are enough changes but at least from my style of TvZ, helions are exceedingly annoying and seems OP with the blue beam upgrade. It is ridiculous that 4 hellions can take down an entire worker line at an expansion in 3 seconds (as well as many many zerglings).
I think these changes would help a lot. Go ahead and evaluate
Someone please post this on the battle.net forums where ever balance issues are being discussed. This is the best analysis of the state of zerg that I've seen. All the effort in the post will be lost if it's not shown to the balance people.
On August 16 2010 08:30 HyunG wrote: i think 3 changes that could help zvt matchup.
1) nerf to hellions. instead of shooting a laser being like it does now, maybe make it like a vulture in sc2. (dont htink ti'll break tvp mech. just cant go pure tank/hellion) 2) maybe slight buff to zergling (may have some detrimental effect to pvz) 3) lower maurader damage to buildings (dont change much, allows zerg to sunken d more)
I don't know if these are enough changes but at least from my style of TvZ, helions are exceedingly annoying and seems OP with the blue beam upgrade. It is ridiculous that 4 hellions can take down an entire worker line at an expansion in 3 seconds (as well as many many zerglings).
I think these changes would help a lot. Go ahead and evaluate
I agree with the hellion change. Blue flame should buff their damage vs regular units, not give them more + light, which is already strong. Right now Hellions are 8/14 base and 8/24 with upgrades. I'd like to see Hellions 12/18 after the upgrades. It makes them less terrible vs roach and stalker, and they wont 2-shot lings (if lings have +1 armor).
Maybe 10/18 even.
Ling buff = no. They are already very good vs marauder heavy armies and insanely fast on creep.
3. Marauder nerf - maybe 12/18 instead of 10/20 they are now
EPT
