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On August 16 2010 07:48 Numy wrote:
Mahnini - Most amazing post I have seen in awhile. I never thought of worker AI being the issue with large drone supply problems. Also creep should be an advantage not a disadvantage when not on it. Creep only serves to reduce the mobility of Zerg. Seems very strange
The issue with the races now I don't think can be fixed with just small tweaking. The design of the races is just wrong. Terran having the best defensive capabilities as well as the best offensive is an obvious hole in the design. Zerg having to use creep to gain mobility instead of creep increasing mobility after the fact is another.
What if all zerg ground units were at creep speed by default and creep slowed down enemy units? (30%-40%) Wouldn't that give creep more meaning, throughout the game?
I've always thought of creep as purple goop which you'de get stuck in!
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On August 16 2010 09:04 Qeet wrote:
god..
please lern to read statistics
around 21% of the players are z, in platin to bronze 20% of all the players there are z, but 24% in diamond, which means z is placed higher than they should....
the one deserving a warning are you for misinterpreting stats
I'll go out on a whim and suggest that zerg is the least played race overall, following i'll reason that i don't think all the pros chose to go with terran/protoss and left zerg to the noobs. I think it is more likely that new players went mostly terran because it is what they played in campaign - but also protoss because the similarities to terran are more appealing then learning something completely new like zerg. (not to mention zealotspam from 2+ gates actually work).
So in closing, if zerg is the least played race i believe mostly new-ish players are skewing the statistics for terran/protoss. What you'd expect to see then is that zergs average rating would be slightly above the norm - and indeed have a higher representation in diamondleague. Again, i think in regards to balancing - looking at statistics for the entire population is not as interresting as the results from tournaments/the very top of the ladders, because of issues like the ones i described above.
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Creep slowing enemy units would be amazing, although the creep tumor might have to be removed...
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On August 16 2010 09:19 Alpz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 07:48 Numy wrote:
Mahnini - Most amazing post I have seen in awhile. I never thought of worker AI being the issue with large drone supply problems. Also creep should be an advantage not a disadvantage when not on it. Creep only serves to reduce the mobility of Zerg. Seems very strange
The issue with the races now I don't think can be fixed with just small tweaking. The design of the races is just wrong. Terran having the best defensive capabilities as well as the best offensive is an obvious hole in the design. Zerg having to use creep to gain mobility instead of creep increasing mobility after the fact is another. What if all zerg ground units were at creep speed by default and creep slowed down enemy units? (30%-40%) Wouldn't that give creep more meaning, throughout the game? I've always thought of creep as purple goop which you'de get stuck in!
Or, what if creep didn't effect speed, but make zerg units regen health fast!
giving zerg the something like healing and shield regen.
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On August 16 2010 09:24 explicit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 09:04 Qeet wrote:
god..
please lern to read statistics
around 21% of the players are z, in platin to bronze 20% of all the players there are z, but 24% in diamond, which means z is placed higher than they should....
the one deserving a warning are you for misinterpreting stats
I'll go out on a whim and suggest that zerg is the least played race overall, following i'll reason that i don't think all the pros chose to go with terran/protoss and left zerg to the noobs. I think it is more likely that new players went mostly terran because it is what they played in campaign - but also protoss because the similarities to terran are more appealing then learning something completely new like zerg. (not to mention zealotspam from 2+ gates actually work). So in closing, if zerg is the least played race i believe mostly new-ish players are skewing the statistics for terran/protoss. What you'd expect to see then is that zergs average rating would be slightly above the norm - and indeed have a higher representation in diamondleague. Again, i think in regards to balancing - looking at statistics for the entire population is not as interresting as the results from tournaments/the very top of the ladders, because of issues like the ones i described above.
i accept this explanation but what iccup.nove did was just _DUMB_
i agree with you that balancing should focus on the ideal level of play, but i doubt anyone is near that after such a short time. also blizzard appears to focus on overall stats, hence my claim to not expect any balance changes that will help z. just give the players some time to adapt. if players like dimaga changes race, fine.. he is that kind of guy that only picks the easy way like abusing in tls2 ladder phase
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It is pretty upsetting seeing how arrogant people have become, and most noticeably, how many arrogant people there are on this website, certainly most from the arrival of SC2. The Zerg problem right now is an extremely big deal, and if you don't think this imbalance exists, give better examples then zergs just want free wins, or they are bad.
An argument so many people try to use at this point is that Terran players are much better players then all Zerg players. This makes absolutely no sense as you look at zergs like Machine, idra, slush, and sheth (chosen from bw). Do people not understand that their opinions are basically greater than everyone else here, yet people say they just want easy wins? These people have been a part of the scene for years and I think they only want the best for the game, and their future as players obviously.
Terran players such as silver, select, stalife, or whoever have just popped out of nowhere.. in the last couple weeks. It feels hard to believe the only random players making a big push to the top are terran players at the moment. Then, when big named zergs beat players like silver, etc. most terrans just go on to convince themselves that the matchup MUST be balanced because the terran player didn't win every game.
The OP is a very good player as well, I have played him a couple times on ladder. He is mentioning extremely valid points, especially the openness of build orders for Terran. I switched to Terran about 2 weeks ago for a couple days, and me and my friend QXC (who you have probably heard of) thought up a couple different ways to use ghosts in TvZ, and that day I ended up destroying a couple mid-high diamond players using a reactor hellion into double cloaked nuke build with ghosts, later into mass ghosts, marauder, hellion. QXC has made similar ghosts builds extremely popular lately, and it is almost surreal that such builds work. The utility that Terran units have with snipe, emp, siege, medivacs, etc. is off the charts compared to Zerg, and sometimes even Protoss.
Zerg is definitely weak at the moment vs Terran. As PvZ stands, It seems that both sides are pretty happy with the matchup. Each part of the game is a little different for each, but it is no where near how bad TvZ is at the moment.
Hopefully this will open up the eyes of a few more people, and hopefully this thread won't fill up with more of this.
On August 16 2010 09:15 Qeet wrote:
z players don't care about balance they just want easy wins, now it isn't that easy anymore they cry
Alas, I am not biased in any form, as I main Protoss, and I'm sure a couple posters can confirm that, so none of that argument please. ty~
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On August 16 2010 08:54 pechkin wrote:
plantary fortress is imposible to kill if its repaired, and its cheap as crap, 1500 hp repair will cost only 150 m and 50 gas and for that time it rapeee enemy units
Gotta say, altough i dont believe its part of the imbalance, its fucking idiotic how hard it is to kill one of this things.
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On August 16 2010 09:44 skindzer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 08:54 pechkin wrote:
plantary fortress is imposible to kill if its repaired, and its cheap as crap, 1500 hp repair will cost only 150 m and 50 gas and for that time it rapeee enemy units Gotta say, altough i dont believe its part of the imbalance, its fucking idiotic how hard it is to kill one of this things.
I don't have much games played yet but aren't workers near PF the easiest to harass also? It deals splash so running few lings between scvs can give quite good results, banelings get just ridiculous.
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I like what the OP has to say and I think a lot of it is pretty correct.
My biggest concern with balancing the game is, and always will be, the fact that you cannot just continue to nerf things that seem OP. You need to buff other things to balance it out. The more nerfs that come out, the more stale the game will be. It will be even less fun than it is now.
This article explains exactly my feelings on SC2 balance and I hope that everyone reads and considers it at least once: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120471
I really really hope that Blizzard doesn't balance the game in the wrong direction, that is, nerfing everything. I really hope they continue to buff things and potentially give even better unit control somehow.
That being said, I think zerg does need some kind of new unit, new spell, or some kind of buff in general. I do not think that terran or protoss should be nerfed to bring zerg up to speed, however.
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One of the most nagging things regarding TvZ is that zerg ultimately has no real counter to mech. Every single T1/T2 zerg unit gets either soft or hard countered by a terran mech unit.
Hellions >>>>> Zerglings/Banelings
Marauders >>>>>> Roaches
Marauders = Hydras
Tanks >>>>>> Zerglings/Banelings/Roaches/Hydras
Thors >>>>>>>>>>>> Roaches/Hydras/Mutas
People keep clamoring for the Lurker's return because it fills the desperately needed role of an anti-armor unit before Ultra tech. It's been said many times before, but the zerg really do need more units. Zerg players always hear others accusing Z players of not playing creatively, but the reason why Z players aren't creative is simply because there's no variety in the zerg design. You HAVE to go muta/ling or roach/hydra 90% of the time or you'll get steamrolled, whereas terran players have over a half-dozen viable openings and every single unit is very useful in multiple situations. Every other unit or tactic for zerg on the other hand is very situational or incredibly expensive (nydus worms).
Unfortunately it looks like we'll have to wait until the expansion before we start seeing new units. A shame.
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On August 16 2010 09:19 Alpz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 07:48 Numy wrote:
Mahnini - Most amazing post I have seen in awhile. I never thought of worker AI being the issue with large drone supply problems. Also creep should be an advantage not a disadvantage when not on it. Creep only serves to reduce the mobility of Zerg. Seems very strange
The issue with the races now I don't think can be fixed with just small tweaking. The design of the races is just wrong. Terran having the best defensive capabilities as well as the best offensive is an obvious hole in the design. Zerg having to use creep to gain mobility instead of creep increasing mobility after the fact is another. What if all zerg ground units were at creep speed by default and creep slowed down enemy units? (30%-40%) Wouldn't that give creep more meaning, throughout the game? I've always thought of creep as purple goop which you'de get stuck in!
This is fucking genius.
Actually creep should be a bonus, not a must for hydras to work. Right now, blizzard thinks zerg needs to expand creep to the middle to be effective.
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Something I've been thinking about for some time but don't have any idea if it has been used by z players is: when not facing bio getting burrow and corruptors to eliminate Ravens, forcing T to spend more gas on Ravens, maybe Vikings and/or Marines which I think are easier to kill than Thors, Tanks, etc for the same resources?
7 burrowed Banelings can kill about 9 to 14 Marauders and more with each additional bane and melee upgrade - Thors and maybe Siege Tanks are the only units that aren't that threaten by burrowed banes.
Corruptors aren't useless once they do their job and survive because they can be morphed into Brood Lords later...?
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On August 16 2010 10:30 beetlelisk wrote:
Something I've been thinking about for some time but don't have any idea if it has been used by z players is: when not facing bio getting burrow and corruptors to eliminate Ravens, forcing T to spend more gas on Ravens, maybe Vikings and/or Marines which I think are easier to kill than Thors, Tanks, etc for the same resources?
7 burrowed Banelings can kill about 9 to 14 Marauders and more with each additional bane and melee upgrade - Thors and maybe Siege Tanks are the only units that aren't that threaten by burrowed banes.
Corruptors aren't useless once they do their job and survive because they can be morphed into Brood Lords later...?
Because it requires you to a) get corruptors (200/200 + 150/100 per corruptor) which do nothing but kill ravens b) get burrow (100/100) then hope that he doesn't just scan + a-move right over you or do a medivac drop (which corruptors are nice for helping for granted).
Put it like this....
How often do you see someone put a dark templar in the middle of the map just to chill out and kill the enemy if they come by? The reason protoss players don't do that is the same reason Zerg players don't.
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Wow--fantastic point about the economy difference from SC1 to SC2.
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On August 16 2010 09:35 Qeet wrote:
i accept this explanation but what iccup.nove did was just _DUMB_
i agree with you that balancing should focus on the ideal level of play, but i doubt anyone is near that after such a short time. also blizzard appears to focus on overall stats, hence my claim to not expect any balance changes that will help z. just give the players some time to adapt. if players like dimaga changes race, fine.. he is that kind of guy that only picks the easy way like abusing in tls2 ladder phase
Not sure how much time the top players need to adapt though, and right now it doesnt look like theres much happening for the top zergs. Guess we'll just have to wait and see if the game evolves past current issues, but from just looking at the zerg units there really isnt anything outstanding you can tech to in order to achieve an advantage in the earlygame -imo.
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On August 16 2010 09:19 Alpz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 07:48 Numy wrote:
Mahnini - Most amazing post I have seen in awhile. I never thought of worker AI being the issue with large drone supply problems. Also creep should be an advantage not a disadvantage when not on it. Creep only serves to reduce the mobility of Zerg. Seems very strange
The issue with the races now I don't think can be fixed with just small tweaking. The design of the races is just wrong. Terran having the best defensive capabilities as well as the best offensive is an obvious hole in the design. Zerg having to use creep to gain mobility instead of creep increasing mobility after the fact is another. What if all zerg ground units were at creep speed by default and creep slowed down enemy units? (30%-40%) Wouldn't that give creep more meaning, throughout the game? I've always thought of creep as purple goop which you'de get stuck in!
I like this idea. I already hate creep and will willing use scans to kill it but I don't think enough terran players do.
While battleing on creep yes zerg get full maneuverability however terrans have full maneuverability as well. Each side can micro just as easily.
Side note: I can see why creep tumors were nerfed to slow the creep process. But I think doubleing the time was a little extreme.
Another random idea I came up with was to make the overseer more useful.
As it stands right now both the terrans and the toss have a reason to make their mobile detection for reasons other than concealed units.
The observer has no special abilities but it is permanently cloaked. So it can be used for carefree scouting. Even if you cannot get into your opponents base to see what they are doing due to spore crawlers or turrets you can still scout out for new expantions ect.
The raven has the pdd which can be invaluable when facing mutas hydras or stalkers. It has a lategame upgrade that basically works like psi storm. It can also harass workers with turrets. Even if the opponent guards from the traditional turret in the mineral line the raven can do other stuff still.
Overseer is basically a way to get a speed overlord without the research to use it for scouting. It has a changeling ability that is relativly worthless against an attentive player. And if the player isn't building marines and going mech then it is more useless as if he is not building marines and he sees a marine hmm I wonder how that got there. It can slime buildings to make them useless for about 30 sec but by the time you get enough overseers to do this the opposing army has usually already grown substantially large. It can be a way to delay reinforcements. What makes the overseer different from the observer is the observer is cloaked the overseer may have more health but it is going to be seen coming in. So any mobile force the opponent has can be moved to kill it before it gets too far.
In the beta the blizzard temporarily expierimented with giving the infested terran ability to the overseer. It was a great idea but it had its problems. They had to make the energy for ability very high to prevent over use. As you could make an army of 4000 infested terrans if you wanted to (yes I know its unrealistic) as the overseers did not cost supply.
What if the overlord and overseer were redisigned to help with mech. This would give zerg more of reason to build this mobile detecting unit.
My idea for redesign. (I came up with multiple ideas so the people would have a choice as to what to look at)
Overlord can now detect but at a small radius
Overlord has to activate a nonenergy ability to detect but it has a large radius and the overlord cannont move.
This would prevent the zerg from having to rush their lair tech to respond to the slim chance of a banshee rush.
Overseer also has the ability to poop creep but not to transport
Overseer loses the changling ability to have its speed done by default.
Overseer morph would be reduced by 25-50 gas but would cost 2-3 supply (it would still not lose the increase to maximum supply that it provided before but the gas reduction would make them easier to mass and therefore a supply cost would mean you would have to sacrafice a combat unit in order to add them to your mix.
Overseer would have an ability to do one of the following
- Reduce (or eliminate) incoming splash damage
-Reduce incoming AA damage
-Buff allied air units
Reducing splash damage could lead to better zvzs as banelings would not be overwhelming
Zerg would have a way to deal with fast collosi without teching to ultra
Storm being a spell would not be affected.
Tanks would do less damage as most of the damage done is splash. Proof being that zerg players still complain about the small damage decrease of siegemode of 10 damage.
Thors would not do as much damage to mutas anymore and being a slow unit they would not be able to leave the area the overseer was affecting.
Reducing AA damage would possibly not affect any unit that does not have different damages depending on air or ground. (marine, phoneix) (this ability might be too specialized though)
This once again would grant another option to zerg players vs terran as mutas would be more viable and thors would have to be guarded by marines. And battlecrusiers would do worse too.
Buff allied air units. (this could be an armor buff or attack buff) would allow corruptors more easily fight vikings so if a terran went too heavy on the mech then zerg air would rape them. And after individual corruptors were getting damaged they would be able to morph into BLords to help mop up the ground units.
2 other ideas I had were to increase the energy of the corruptors ability but make it an AOE
and to make tunneling roaches move faster than walking roaches. If your opponent has detection and high damage units tunneling them is useless as they move slower and the high damage units will kill them almost instantly preventing the regeneration speed from coming into effect.
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On August 16 2010 09:44 skindzer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 08:54 pechkin wrote:
plantary fortress is imposible to kill if its repaired, and its cheap as crap, 1500 hp repair will cost only 150 m and 50 gas and for that time it rapeee enemy units Gotta say, altough i dont believe its part of the imbalance, its fucking idiotic how hard it is to kill one of this things.
All through out this thread people say stupid shit like this, I am so sick of it, so please stop. This is a prime example of what a 'bad' player is. A 'bad' zerg player will attack the PF and then after half their army is dissolved, run away and instantly conclude its the PF that is op. Where a 'good' zerg will attack the scvs repairing the PF and THEN the PF.
Just 5 minutes ago I watched this a a high level, with Sheth vs Morrow. Sheth made a huge mistake and used two ultras and hydras/lings to target the PF, and not the scvs, you know what happened to Sheth's army. I don't know if it was game 2 or 3, but being a 'good' player, when Sheth was dealt this exact same situation, he attacked the scvs and demolished the PF. PFs aren't indestructible, just use your head. How many times have I dropped a thor and scvs into a zerg's base, only to watch 20 zerglings and 5 roachs all attempt to kill my thor, where it only takes 2 seconds to kill my scvs, and finish the thor. Don't believe me? Morrow JUST did this with Sheth, and Sheth is a top playing zerg.
My point is, right now this game is far too complex to understand if there is a MAJOR problem. I think there still is balancing issues to be dealt with, something with the roach power. I think a large part of problems you see usually deters from some poor beginning, and a large part is the roach. (the day the double supply patch came into effect, that's when shit really started to slide for zerg). But more importantly, I believe once large scale tournaments (like MLG) start gaining seats for sc2, we will see a different wave of play. I think pros from bw will start flocking in because money will start to show up, and I think we will be able to see how sc2 really should be played. I'm curious as to wonder if Idra switched to Terran and let's say, didn't need much practice time to switch, would he really be any better? I guess the closest to finding this out is to look at Dimaga.
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On August 16 2010 10:30 beetlelisk wrote:
Something I've been thinking about for some time but don't have any idea if it has been used by z players is: when not facing bio getting burrow and corruptors to eliminate Ravens, forcing T to spend more gas on Ravens, maybe Vikings and/or Marines which I think are easier to kill than Thors, Tanks, etc for the same resources?
7 burrowed Banelings can kill about 9 to 14 Marauders and more with each additional bane and melee upgrade - Thors and maybe Siege Tanks are the only units that aren't that threaten by burrowed banes.
Corruptors aren't useless once they do their job and survive because they can be morphed into Brood Lords later...?
what unit are you going to unburrow under a thor+MMM ball? What are you going to do about scans? What do you do if the terran just siege-expands and does a push with turrets?
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On August 16 2010 09:32 zergyjames wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 09:19 Alpz wrote:On August 16 2010 07:48 Numy wrote:
Mahnini - Most amazing post I have seen in awhile. I never thought of worker AI being the issue with large drone supply problems. Also creep should be an advantage not a disadvantage when not on it. Creep only serves to reduce the mobility of Zerg. Seems very strange
The issue with the races now I don't think can be fixed with just small tweaking. The design of the races is just wrong. Terran having the best defensive capabilities as well as the best offensive is an obvious hole in the design. Zerg having to use creep to gain mobility instead of creep increasing mobility after the fact is another. What if all zerg ground units were at creep speed by default and creep slowed down enemy units? (30%-40%) Wouldn't that give creep more meaning, throughout the game? I've always thought of creep as purple goop which you'de get stuck in! Or, what if creep didn't effect speed, but make zerg units regen health fast! giving zerg the something like healing and shield regen.
Making my precious sieges and thors and whatnot even slower makes me cringe, but the idea of letting zerg have creep-level speed all the time, and changing the creep bonus instead to health regen or something like that, is an idea I like.
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Something I want to say is that if Blizz does decide to provide patches to "balance" things, I hope that they give a time-frame for how long they will do so. Lets say a ZvT patch is necessary to maintain balance: they should say that the last date such a patch will be out is in the next three months, otherwise we have to wait for the expansion. I played WoW, and classes were constantly "updated" so any strategy that people created could become completely meaningless with a patch.
If patches need to be done to make it better, I suggest that they do NOT screw with the timing of units or research--as this screws up all the training put into it. Even making units stronger is something I wouldn't like.
Adjustments like making it so that queens autocast their heal ability (maybe along with this a research to make queens run the same speed off of creep?) seems like it could significantly bolster the midgame and especially late game push of zerg. Queens already have this ability, but for some reason they cannot autocast it (whereas terran's medivacs DO autocast it). Also, perhaps hydra's should get some kind of ability (possibly researched). Maybe make their needles poisonous so even if the terran army kites, they would still suffer dmg from the hydras.
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EPT
