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raph
United States204 Posts
thatd increase incentive of creep spreading, you could possibly just make it necessary for tumors to "link" to a hatchery, creating a chain. so even though the creep remains you cant place a tumor unless its within a certain vicinity of a hatchery or another tumor. EDIT: creep feels VERY necessary for zerg and pushing the creep back seems too easy, or at least make creep retract very slowly to give them a shot at recovering their creep positioning. | ||
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TheMick
Great Britain164 Posts
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retro-noob
110 Posts
On August 16 2010 07:44 mahnini wrote: i think the biggest problem might be worker ai. if i'm not mistaken all workers mine at the same speed now which wasn't the case in sc1. it takes 50 workers to fully saturate 2 bases no matter what race you are so even if you are on 4 base as a zerg if you don't have 100 drones you aren't fully utilizing them all. that's a significant difference from sc1 where 4 bases began showing larger returns due to less efficient worker ai. to counteract terran cost efficiency scvs were probably the worst miners with extremely long acceleration and deceleration, that meant to fully utilize 2 base in sc1 you needed a ton more workers because of scv travel time. in sc1 it was a common occurence to have ~12 drones per base mid game because it made mining that much more efficient. in sc2 having 12 drones per base makes no sense because you're just spreading yourself thin and not actually improving your economy. i think an easy fix for this would be to lower the number of mineral patches per base, this way zerg expansions will actually give them a strong advantage over 2 base terran without having to have 100 supply of drones. in addition, this also makes MULEs more effective which means missing a MULE hurts even more. i also have to say as a zerg player in sc1 that i hate the creep mechanic. it forces zergs to slow push with creep which makes no sense to me and when you think about it, even if we makes maps larger zergs will still have to spread creep in order to effectively use the space. i wouldn't mind seeing speed on creep nerfed in order to see speed off creep buffed (at least the hydra!). requiring a zerg to have nearly complete map control in order to have their backbone damage dealer be anywhere near mobile kind of sucks. This might deserve its own thread. It's a point I've seen no-one address, but it seems like it would totally fix much of the problems with zerg right now as well as restore some of the swarminess to them. | ||
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Uhh Negative
United States1090 Posts
On August 16 2010 10:49 cloudform wrote: Something I want to say is that if Blizz does decide to provide patches to "balance" things, I hope that they give a time-frame for how long they will do so. Lets say a ZvT patch is necessary to maintain balance: they should say that the last date such a patch will be out is in the next three months, otherwise we have to wait for the expansion. I played WoW, and classes were constantly "updated" so any strategy that people created could become completely meaningless with a patch. If patches need to be done to make it better, I suggest that they do NOT screw with the timing of units or research--as this screws up all the training put into it. Even making units stronger is something I wouldn't like. Adjustments like making it so that queens autocast their heal ability (maybe along with this a research to make queens run the same speed off of creep?) seems like it could significantly bolster the midgame and especially late game push of zerg. Queens already have this ability, but for some reason they cannot autocast it (whereas terran's medivacs DO autocast it). Also, perhaps hydra's should get some kind of ability (possibly researched). Maybe make their needles poisonous so even if the terran army kites, they would still suffer dmg from the hydras. Autocast heal is a terrible idea. That is actually one cool micro aspect in SC2. I'm going to say I'm 100 percent sure that blizzard will patch this game, lol. Sc1 took 9 years to balance. | ||
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Chex
United States87 Posts
On August 16 2010 09:40 skYfiVe wrote: It is pretty upsetting seeing how arrogant people have become, and most noticeably, how many arrogant people there are on this website, certainly most from the arrival of SC2. The Zerg problem right now is an extremely big deal, and if you don't think this imbalance exists, give better examples then zergs just want free wins, or they are bad. An argument so many people try to use at this point is that Terran players are much better players then all Zerg players. This makes absolutely no sense as you look at zergs like Machine, idra, slush, and sheth (chosen from bw). Do people not understand that their opinions are basically greater than everyone else here, yet people say they just want easy wins? These people have been a part of the scene for years and I think they only want the best for the game, and their future as players obviously. Terran players such as silver, select, stalife, or whoever have just popped out of nowhere.. in the last couple weeks. It feels hard to believe the only random players making a big push to the top are terran players at the moment. Then, when big named zergs beat players like silver, etc. most terrans just go on to convince themselves that the matchup MUST be balanced because the terran player didn't win every game. The OP is a very good player as well, I have played him a couple times on ladder. He is mentioning extremely valid points, especially the openness of build orders for Terran. I switched to Terran about 2 weeks ago for a couple days, and me and my friend QXC (who you have probably heard of) thought up a couple different ways to use ghosts in TvZ, and that day I ended up destroying a couple mid-high diamond players using a reactor hellion into double cloaked nuke build with ghosts, later into mass ghosts, marauder, hellion. QXC has made similar ghosts builds extremely popular lately, and it is almost surreal that such builds work. The utility that Terran units have with snipe, emp, siege, medivacs, etc. is off the charts compared to Zerg, and sometimes even Protoss. Zerg is definitely weak at the moment vs Terran. As PvZ stands, It seems that both sides are pretty happy with the matchup. Each part of the game is a little different for each, but it is no where near how bad TvZ is at the moment. Hopefully this will open up the eyes of a few more people, and hopefully this thread won't fill up with more of this. Alas, I am not biased in any form, as I main Protoss, and I'm sure a couple posters can confirm that, so none of that argument please. ty~ Thank you skyfive. I will be the first to admit that I am new to the scene since the SC2 beta. Given that fact, I greatly respect the opinions of SC1 veterans and people who have been around to see a game mature to the point that 3 races are well balanced and playable, with multiple options. At the same time, I am disgusted by the way so many Terran players, likely with just as little experience as I have, come back and basically tell more experienced, thoughtful people to shut up and l2p. The OP makes some extremely valid points. In fact I would extend many of his points to ZvP as well. Not in saying that it i unbalanced at the moment, but in saying that Z is once again in a very reactionary posture early game. Maybe not to the extend than when against Terran. The problem isn't Terran so much as Zerg's bland and barely viable early game options. If you were around for the beta, its instructive to look back at the evolution of build orders for all three races and notice how Zerg openers have stayed almost exactly the same with the big questions of roaches or zergling speed and when to FE. Notice not if you should FE but WHEN. Either 14, 15, 16 or around 20. Zerg seriously needs more flexibility early game. Something to force Terran (and Protoss) into a reactionary or at least accountable posture. When you have almost every popular or pro commentator and player making jokes about Terran being OP race, why is it so easy for some people to dismiss the thought out complaints of people like slush, sheth, idra, and the OP etc? I would propose that the people yelling at the best Zerg players to l2p, should look in the mirror. If Zerg gets the buff they NEED, you might actually need to l2p yourself instead of relying on the weakness of Zerg to carry you through. | ||
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Nooborghini
Canada136 Posts
On August 16 2010 09:15 Qeet wrote: z players don't care about balance they just want easy wins, now it isn't that easy anymore they cry you fail too LOOL? Your arguement is EXACTLY like this Rock: Paper needs a nerf, Rock is fine, L2 Play Scissors. Have you read ANY of my posts? If not then don't start making false accusations, you should deserve a warning for that. EDIT: Actually you should deserve a dumbass sticker on ur fuckin forehead, l2 read instead of running ur mouth like that. When have I EVER said in this thread that Terrans needs a nerf. I don't wanna reherse myself to dumbasses like you, you're the people who RUIN the game. You play the "OP" class of each game and think your pro and say, they're fine how they are. Let them QQ but then once u play a non-OP class you would BITCH the same amount. EDIT: I'm not saying Terran is OP, I'm saying in general, you would choose the race/class and expliot it's unbalancedness towards other races/classes. This isn't a bitching thread, this is a real-case scenario where people talk about different ways Zerg could get a small buff, you wanna go QQ? then go do it somewhere else. Not once have I said Terran needs a nerf, read my posts. EDIT: on another note, removing stimpacks would kill TxP. Please think of the other races in this game. Nerfing Terran is NOT the thing I stand by, that would destroy TxP. All I'm saying is that Zerg needs somewhat of a Lair speed increase because all of our anti-air is at our T2. As Mahnini, I think I spent it wrong - Sorry if I did, said that a decrease in base minerals will probably fix our arguement here. | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On August 16 2010 10:39 Logo wrote: Because it requires you to a) get corruptors (200/200 + 150/100 per corruptor) which do nothing but kill ravens b) get burrow (100/100) then hope that he doesn't just scan + a-move right over you or do a medivac drop (which corruptors are nice for helping for granted). Put it like this.... How often do you see someone put a dark templar in the middle of the map just to chill out and kill the enemy if they come by? The reason protoss players don't do that is the same reason Zerg players don't. Well you can burrow everywhere so it doesn't have to look like whole army chilling in one random place but few lings here and there watching over chokes and such. No Terran is going to scan random places and there is no need to burrow only at chokes - if he doesn't have Ravens yet but moves out then all that is needed is to know where exactly is he going and burrow somwhere on that path. Burrowing any zerg units imo helps to improve their DPS (mentioned in the OP) against medium and large armies. Which means you don't need to spend as much resources on ground units and spend some on anti air. I wonder what potential to be seen Infestors have against T air, with Fungal Growth and Parasite. | ||
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BeefAvenger
Canada54 Posts
On August 16 2010 10:50 raph wrote: itd be interesting to see permanent creep expansion, as in, your creep doesnt retract when the tumors are killed, thatd increase incentive of creep spreading, you could possibly just make it necessary for tumors to "link" to a hatchery, creating a chain. so even though the creep remains you cant place a tumor unless its within a certain vicinity of a hatchery or another tumor. EDIT: creep feels VERY necessary for zerg and pushing the creep back seems too easy, or at least make creep retract very slowly to give them a shot at recovering their creep positioning. queen drops would be the most broken thing if this happened | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
On August 16 2010 10:41 Chunkybuddha wrote: How many times have I dropped a thor and scvs into a zerg's base, only to watch 20 zerglings and 5 roachs all attempt to kill my thor, where it only takes 2 seconds to kill my scvs, and finish the thor. The SCVs wont be auto targeted. You have to kill them individually. Auto-repair is OP and needs to be dealt with. | ||
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DFarce
55 Posts
I think that the difference in opening variety is one of the larger issues, and it results specifically from the lair/queen dynamic and cost effectiveness of zerg units. When zerg opts to get a queen on 1 base, it automatically delays the lair. Similarly, if zerg opts to get roaches or banelings, it also delays the lair. Because roaches are often used against hellion and reaper openings, and queens are required for early AA, the lair is indefinitely delayed. Its because of this that I think that shortening the lair upgrade would really diversify the zerg openings. This would obviously need to be balanced by a change in some other area, but I think it is part of the solution. As an aside, I find it very annoying that by the time it takes zerg to get air units, terran can already have thors, which also means any other composition is possible besides battlecruisers in the same time frame. EDIT: Just looked up On August 16 2010 11:07 Nooborghini wrote: All I'm saying is that Zerg needs somewhat of a Lair speed increase because all of our anti-air is at our T2. I agree that faster T2 would be helpful | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On August 16 2010 10:42 Dental Floss wrote: what unit are you going to unburrow under a thor+MMM ball? What are you going to do about scans? What do you do if the terran just siege-expands and does a push with turrets? Banelings to kill major part of everything but Thors, there is no need to unburrow them even. Whatever survives would die to other z units. About Turret push... really? I would laugh at every Turret he makes as I take the rest of the map. This is the same case as Muta openings in BW ZvT - threat itself would keep T in his base longer and each Turret is that many units in resources less, which means less powerful army to do anything with. | ||
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Rev0lution
United States1805 Posts
On August 16 2010 10:55 Uhh Negative wrote: Autocast heal is a terrible idea. That is actually one cool micro aspect in SC2. I'm going to say I'm 100 percent sure that blizzard will patch this game, lol. Sc1 took 9 years to balance. Are you retarded? Patch 1.08 was released in 2001. After that, no more unit or building changes were made only bug fixes. | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On August 16 2010 11:19 Rev0lution wrote: Are you retarded? Patch 1.08 was released in 2001. After that, no more unit or building changes were made only bug fixes. It was being balanced with new maps and there are supposed to be 2 expansions. Who knows what will change once those are out. | ||
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raph
United States204 Posts
On August 16 2010 11:07 BeefAvenger wrote: queen drops would be the most broken thing if this happened queen drops? how is that in any way connected with what i said, i never said you should be allowed to throw down creep tumors and uncreeped ground or anything. | ||
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archon256
United States363 Posts
I agree with BeefAvenger, permanent creep is a bad idea. | ||
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EliteAzn
United States661 Posts
On August 16 2010 11:21 beetlelisk wrote: It was being balanced with new maps and there are supposed to be 2 expansions. Who knows what will change once those are out. People want the game to be balanced now, not when 2 expansions are released. That's just like saying, "Here, have this piece of crap, but in 5 years, it might turn into play-doh!" | ||
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mrd33ds
Djibouti30 Posts
It is pretty upsetting seeing how arrogant people have become, and most noticeably, how many arrogant people there are on this website, certainly most from the arrival of SC2. The Zerg problem right now is an extremely big deal, and if you don't think this imbalance exists, give better examples then zergs just want free wins, or they are bad. An argument so many people try to use at this point is that Terran players are much better players then all Zerg players. This makes absolutely no sense as you look at zergs like Machine, idra, slush, and sheth (chosen from bw). Do people not understand that their opinions are basically greater than everyone else here, yet people say they just want easy wins? These people have been a part of the scene for years and I think they only want the best for the game, and their future as players obviously. Terran players such as silver, select, stalife, or whoever have just popped out of nowhere.. in the last couple weeks. It feels hard to believe the only random players making a big push to the top are terran players at the moment. Then, when big named zergs beat players like silver, etc. most terrans just go on to convince themselves that the matchup MUST be balanced because the terran player didn't win every game. [QUOTE] Strongly agree with this and the OP. Z units need to be slightly quicker, F the nydus bc its useless in high level. I really dont know what should be changed, but it is all really annoying to play T right now. Just watch the replays of the high lvl players, watch how they usually get creamed by the Terran so with seige tanks, thors, rauders, marines, meds, ghosts, hellions, vikings. theres the T strat that will win every time against z even if ur harassing. And during the beta it wasnt that bad to play T bc like the OP said "they werent that knowledgeable about the units and how to use them best." But now it is def something that needs to be taken care of by our loyal blizzard employees of the month... If there was a iron that Tiger Woods said was off, dont u think he'd get another one? Yes because hes a pro at what he does. Now dont you think the same situation is here? Hey blizz Im a pro, this game is off, can u fix it? Oh sure son, we'll be sure ot talk about it at our next WoW meeting bc thats all we care about anyways. | ||
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eH
88 Posts
On August 16 2010 11:23 raph wrote: queen drops? how is that in any way connected with what i said, i never said you should be allowed to throw down creep tumors and uncreeped ground or anything. If you have drop, you have lair. If you have lair, your overlord doing the dropping can also drop creep. If creep doesnt go away when the tumor is destroyed, you can run around with an OL/queen creeping the entire map. | ||
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Nooborghini
Canada136 Posts
I said my point, I hope you all can read and figure out what Zerg needs. I'm going to stop looking at this now, there's no point. If you would like to discuss this with me, just give me a PM on the website. EDIT: I have no idea why you guys are talking about T2 and beyond. Where zerg has it's problems is t1 to around t1.5. If you manage to get to t2+, you've caught a break. If you play right you can probably change it around. This doesn't mean TERRAN only, this is the same with Protoss http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144149¤tpage=21 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144149¤tpage=23. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144149¤tpage=24 <-- Mahnini's post was a break through. IMO | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On August 16 2010 11:27 EliteAzn wrote: People want the game to be balanced now, not when 2 expansions are released. That's just like saying, "Here, have this piece of crap, but in 5 years, it might turn into play-doh!" Where did I say we have to wait till expansions? If need for changes is as dire as it seems then we won't but it doesn't mean there will not be any rebalancing once expansions are out. | ||
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