On August 16 2010 02:34 Voyager I wrote: Love P players who claim that EMP does 100 damage to units with less than 100 shields. Yeah, it's good, but Storm is plenty vicious itself.
Ohh i do apologise. It does 40% dmg overall(or average, woteva u call it) to all toss units in a large radius. Does that make u feel better?
Tell u what, why dont we trade? Teran can have a spell that does 80 dmg over TIME (4 sec) to shields and hp and to have it reserched from starport for 200/200. And i can have a spell that does 40%dmg to all of ur units instantly and within large radius from a cloacked, speed buffed, armed with pew pew lazers that shoot air and ground Hight Templar. Hows that? sounds pretty fair right?
Just because one matchup is broken doesn't mean everyone gets to blame it on the race whenever they lose to a Terran. If it gets any worse we're gonna have T players call each other imba after every loss.
And as for that trade, absolutely. I'd happily take Psi Storm in exchange for something that does 20 damage to Marines.
Just because ur ignorant and playing terran and ofcourse want to keep advantage over other races doesent mean my arguments are any less valid. Im giving u arguments in numbers wich are a FACT. U forgot about that "something" will do 50 dmg to marauders, 80 dmg to ur tanks, 150 dmg to ur thors, 200 dmg to bcruisers INSTANTLY (no dodging) so on and so on... well after that sure u can keep ur marines with their 30 hp left. Im in! lets do it!
On August 16 2010 01:28 Consummate wrote: Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both P and Z.
I'm guessing you've never heard of the immortal. (if you say EMP i'll just say high templar)
If you say high templar I say EMP is AoE and feedback is single targeted. I will also say that Ghosts can go invisible, and EMP has a longer range.
So to assume I can feedback your Ghosts before you EMP me, means that you were unable to EMP me before I individually selected your ghosts in your huge blob to feedback them all.
You can't seriously be that bias.... Can you?
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to feedback ghosts? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill.
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to shoot 1 EMP from one of your several ghosts before he individually selects all your Ghosts with his High Templar to feedback them? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill
While we are on the topic of Ghosts, lets not forget they take half of all the Protoss hp instantly with 1 skill, additionally, eats the energy of all the units caught in it too. I wish Zerg or Protoss had a unit that did that too...
It's amazing that not many people use Ghosts that often in the TvP matchup despite how incredibly effective EMP is against them, but that's only because everyone is so used to Siege tanks.
It's also because of the cost of building the ghost aca as well as the time to build it and the time needed to generate the energy. let's not forget you don't have to have your units all clumped up in a bunch. That's the thing about the new 'balling" of units in sc2 and 1 group, it makes you arrange your units in more favourable positions to win. In your example you say the Terran has several ghosts, so if your macro is close to his you should have a comparable amount of templars and/or units, not just a few templars. This video demonstrates my point, or request for your attention to these few details that might help bring balance and turn the tide in your favour.
So because that T got outplayed madly (in the video) does that means EMP is balanced?
On August 16 2010 02:34 Voyager I wrote: Love P players who claim that EMP does 100 damage to units with less than 100 shields. Yeah, it's good, but Storm is plenty vicious itself.
because EMP hits multiple units (assuming you can aim), it actually does more than 100 damage. yeah, maybe not a full 100 damage to a stalker, but a total of way more than 100.
the video posted above where you hide a templar, feedback his (one) ghost(s), misses the fact that you should always push with your ghost + bioball before they have collossi/temps.
Well all I can say about incoming balance patches is that we must trust blizzard; they WANT to boost e-sports and be a big part of it, so it is safe to say that balancing the game is amongst their top priorities.
On August 16 2010 03:00 Keap wrote: The biggest evidence against T is pretty clear in the tournament scene. Just look at how Teran is way overrepresented in the later stages of ANY tournament. Look at how many ok players are doing amazing in tournaments and pulling upsets while playing Terran.
Seriously Silver, Masq, Drewbie and all those guys are good, but no where near Idra or Huk for instance and yet they beat them. You tell me, how many up and comer P or Z do we see in tournaments? None
It would be useful to know the % of terrans entering the tournament vs % in the later stages. People need to remember that Terran is a popular race so it is natural that many of them end up in the later stages in tournaments. BTW not saying it is not true that Terran is OP, but the fact alone that many are on top is meaningless if we don't know the % of terrans from the start.
That video about how to deal with ghost. LOL!! It shows how one good player outmanouvered and suprised A-move bioball. So to deal with ghosts we have to have like 300 apm, spread our units, wait for them to make a mistake and attack and pray they wont spot HT while all they have to do is A-move? This is ur solution? This is fair?
was that staged? just looking at the armys, the Terran army was 3k minerals / 600 gas. the protoss army was: 2850 minerals / 1350 gas
the toss army had charge researched, was at Tier 3 with templars and was about to make a expension... you outmacroed that guy by so much, you probably could have beaten him without templars and some sentry play.
*edit*
checked that Cgoblin guys rank.
Rank #51 111 point, in silver league / 11 games played won 6, lost 5.
you pull that off against a gold league or higher player please.
so on and so on... well after that sure u can keep ur marines with their 30 hp left. Im in! lets do it!
Still sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Oh wait, I forgot to mention that this ability should never be able to take my units below half health and all of the damage should come back by itself after a little while.
Look, I'm not saying that T is weak, but just because one race has problems doesn't mean you get to hurl yourself on the bandwagon and try to stake an arbitrary claim on the moral high ground.
On August 16 2010 03:23 Acidlineup wrote: That video about how to deal with ghost. LOL!! It shows how one good player outmanouvered and suprised A-move bioball. So to deal with ghosts we have to have like 300 apm, spread our units, wait for them to make a mistake and attack and pray they wont spot HT while all they have to do is A-move? This is ur solution? This is fair?
And to think: People thought this game wouldn't require mechanical skill.
I'm a low level Terran player, and I've read a lot about TvZ, and I've watched lots of high level replays, so even though I suck at the game, I'd like to think I'm not completely ignorant. Anyway, I just wanted to post some ideas I had to ameliorate the TvZ situation (assuming that there is an imbalance after all). Maybe the ideas all suck, but please don't flame meee!
Nerf turret damage, at least against bio units (so this would specifically be for buffing mutas)
Make a new building, maybe called the Academy as sort of a BW throwback, that is required before you can get any upgrades at any tech labs. This would delay things like siege, emp, stim, banshee cloak, etc., and nerf Terran a little bit in many way, but they'd still be capable of making those tech lab units. If this Academy is quick to build and low in mineral cost, it wouldn't be a hard nerf.
Make a new Zerg unit! I would love to see Zerg get more strats in every possible matchup, and a new unit would be fun. The trouble is of course figuring out what that unit should be... so if Idra or any other amazing Zerg player has any ideas, please share! =)
Make burrowed units take reduced damage (not my idea; I saw this somewhere, but I don't remember who)
And of course, improve Zerg AI. Or maybe introduce a new button that will "attack only units of these type," so for example, if you have a bunch of zerglings surrounding a Thor surrounded by SCV's, you button press on the SCV and the lings will automatically switch to attack SCV's, without you having to queue attack them.
On August 15 2010 14:09 SeaSmoke wrote: IdrA, I hate balance suggestions, but your opinion on it is about the only one in the world that I'd be interested in hearing.
So...what would be your balance changes in ZvT? Would they be drastic? Or relatively subtle?
they need to start by bringing back the phase 2 build time changes, reaper barracks zealot +5 seconds and the bunker back to 40 or w/e it was. those should have pretty significant effects so while other stuff may be needed we have to see what happens when that is changed first, because zergs early game 100% needs help.
Personally I doubt that Zerg will get fixed before the next addon. I feel like terrans defining characteristics (strong defense, immobility, flexible unit compositions) changed ridiculously. I attribute this to all the effort spent on designing the campaign. Just think of the different strategies that were possible in Bw: M&ms, Mech, Drops, and to some extent Wraith play. Now while this is an extremely crude way to summarize, take a moment to think just as crudely of all the strategies available to terrans now. All those superearly fast techs- reapers, hellions, banshees, thor drops- all perfectly capable of crippling/killing the opponent. Then the ridiculous (mid game) timing pushes, the unit abilities/spells available to them- mindboggling.
While I thouroughly enjoyed playing the campaign I can't help but feel the real imbalance between the races is based on developement time. This is why I agree with posters in this thread claiming that it will take more than some minor unit tweaks/ stat changes to balance the game. Let's hope the Zerg campaign will bring new units/mechanics/abilities and take the (zerg-) game to a whole new level. We'll see about balance then (poor protoss get the addon cookie last).
Edit: Of course Dimaga can't wait for the addon Maybe some patchwerk changes will be sufficient to make him hold on.
How come 8 stim marauders can snipe a pylon in less than 2 seconds, and a nexus in less then 5? That's insane. With +1 attack it's a little faster.
Also, you guys are not getting the big picture. WHY UPGRADE SHIELDS WHEN GHOST CAN JUST MAKE THEM USELESS? Ghosts can use them on buildings too! Insanely OP if Terran evolves even more to use ghosts to EMP + nuke a base.
How about the shield upgrade reduces the effect of the EMP?
On August 16 2010 01:28 Consummate wrote: Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both P and Z.
I'm guessing you've never heard of the immortal. (if you say EMP i'll just say high templar)
If you say high templar I say EMP is AoE and feedback is single targeted. I will also say that Ghosts can go invisible, and EMP has a longer range.
So to assume I can feedback your Ghosts before you EMP me, means that you were unable to EMP me before I individually selected your ghosts in your huge blob to feedback them all.
You can't seriously be that bias.... Can you?
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to feedback ghosts? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill.
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to shoot 1 EMP from one of your several ghosts before he individually selects all your Ghosts with his High Templar to feedback them? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill
While we are on the topic of Ghosts, lets not forget they take half of all the Protoss hp instantly with 1 skill, additionally, eats the energy of all the units caught in it too. I wish Zerg or Protoss had a unit that did that too...
It's amazing that not many people use Ghosts that often in the TvP matchup despite how incredibly effective EMP is against them, but that's only because everyone is so used to Siege tanks.
It's also because of the cost of building the ghost aca as well as the time to build it and the time needed to generate the energy. let's not forget you don't have to have your units all clumped up in a bunch. That's the thing about the new 'balling" of units in sc2 and 1 group, it makes you arrange your units in more favourable positions to win. In your example you say the Terran has several ghosts, so if your macro is close to his you should have a comparable amount of templars and/or units, not just a few templars. This video demonstrates my point, or request for your attention to these few details that might help bring balance and turn the tide in your favour. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2kOJAsvseY&feature=related
So because that T got outplayed madly (in the video) does that means EMP is balanced?
outplayed madly is not moving a unit to the side before a battle.
On August 16 2010 01:28 Consummate wrote: Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both P and Z.
I'm guessing you've never heard of the immortal. (if you say EMP i'll just say high templar)
If you say high templar I say EMP is AoE and feedback is single targeted. I will also say that Ghosts can go invisible, and EMP has a longer range.
So to assume I can feedback your Ghosts before you EMP me, means that you were unable to EMP me before I individually selected your ghosts in your huge blob to feedback them all.
You can't seriously be that bias.... Can you?
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to feedback ghosts? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill.
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to shoot 1 EMP from one of your several ghosts before he individually selects all your Ghosts with his High Templar to feedback them? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill
While we are on the topic of Ghosts, lets not forget they take half of all the Protoss hp instantly with 1 skill, additionally, eats the energy of all the units caught in it too. I wish Zerg or Protoss had a unit that did that too...
It's amazing that not many people use Ghosts that often in the TvP matchup despite how incredibly effective EMP is against them, but that's only because everyone is so used to Siege tanks.
It's also because of the cost of building the ghost aca as well as the time to build it and the time needed to generate the energy. let's not forget you don't have to have your units all clumped up in a bunch. That's the thing about the new 'balling" of units in sc2 and 1 group, it makes you arrange your units in more favourable positions to win. In your example you say the Terran has several ghosts, so if your macro is close to his you should have a comparable amount of templars and/or units, not just a few templars. This video demonstrates my point, or request for your attention to these few details that might help bring balance and turn the tide in your favour. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2kOJAsvseY&feature=related
So because that T got outplayed madly (in the video) does that means EMP is balanced?
outplayed madly is not moving a unit to the side before a battle.
Ghosts can EMP a templar before templar can emp a gost. This is due to the AOE nature of emp. So yes, the terran did get outplayed. The terran should have seen the templar and emp'd the templar before it got in range to feedback.
Perfectly played on both sides, templar should never be able to get a feedback on a ghost.
On August 16 2010 04:07 Iggyhopper wrote: Also, you guys are not getting the big picture. WHY UPGRADE SHIELDS WHEN GHOST CAN JUST MAKE THEM USELESS? Ghosts can use them on buildings too! Insanely OP if Terran evolves even more to use ghosts to EMP + nuke a base.
How about the shield upgrade reduces the effect of the EMP?
EMP only does 100 damage. Wouldn't kill anything that doesn't already die to one Nuke.
On August 16 2010 03:00 Keap wrote: The biggest evidence against T is pretty clear in the tournament scene. Just look at how Teran is way overrepresented in the later stages of ANY tournament. Look at how many ok players are doing amazing in tournaments and pulling upsets while playing Terran.
Seriously Silver, Masq, Drewbie and all those guys are good, but no where near Idra or Huk for instance and yet they beat them. You tell me, how many up and comer P or Z do we see in tournaments? None
Hm I dont' know I don't think there's really a balance issue in tvp as I hear both Terrans and Protoss complain about eachother's races alot so even if it is "imbalanced" it can't be that imbalanced.
Still think dimaga could play zerg fine if he looked at idra's play and didn't go pure roaches but w/e there will be a balance change soon I bet give or take a couple more weeks.
On August 16 2010 01:28 Consummate wrote: Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both P and Z.
Still, that's a cheesy gimmick that could just as easily backfire on you - hardly something that can be considered for standard play. I'm guessing you've never heard of the immortal. (if you say EMP i'll just say high templar)
If you say high templar I say EMP is AoE and feedback is single targeted. I will also say that Ghosts can go invisible, and EMP has a longer range.
So to assume I can feedback your Ghosts before you EMP me, means that you were unable to EMP me before I individually selected your ghosts in your huge blob to feedback them all.
You can't seriously be that bias.... Can you?
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to feedback ghosts? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill.
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to shoot 1 EMP from one of your several ghosts before he individually selects all your Ghosts with his High Templar to feedback them? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill
While we are on the topic of Ghosts, lets not forget they take half of all the Protoss hp instantly with 1 skill, additionally, eats the energy of all the units caught in it too. I wish Zerg or Protoss had a unit that did that too...
It's amazing that not many people use Ghosts that often in the TvP matchup despite how incredibly effective EMP is against them, but that's only because everyone is so used to Siege tanks.
It's also because of the cost of building the ghost aca as well as the time to build it and the time needed to generate the energy. let's not forget you don't have to have your units all clumped up in a bunch. That's the thing about the new 'balling" of units in sc2 and 1 group, it makes you arrange your units in more favourable positions to win. In your example you say the Terran has several ghosts, so if your macro is close to his you should have a comparable amount of templars and/or units, not just a few templars. This video demonstrates my point, or request for your attention to these few details that might help bring balance and turn the tide in your favour. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2kOJAsvseY&feature=related
So because that T got outplayed madly (in the video) does that means EMP is balanced?
outplayed madly is not moving a unit to the side before a battle.
Still, it's a cheesy gimmicky that's as likely to backfire on you as it is to work - hardly something that can be worked into standard play.
On August 16 2010 03:42 TheRealPaciFist wrote: Make a new building, maybe called the Academy as sort of a BW throwback, that is required before you can get any upgrades at any tech labs. This would delay things like siege, emp, stim, banshee cloak, etc., and nerf Terran a little bit in many way, but they'd still be capable of making those tech lab units. If this Academy is quick to build and low in mineral cost, it wouldn't be a hard nerf.
Eh. Just make Tech Lab cost the same and have the same build time as a reactor. (50/50/50 instead of 50/25/25.) It's silly how quickly Terran can get fuck-your-face units like Marauders and Reapers, and the matchups really open up without the ridiculous early threat they pose.
Just putting it out there, but EMP is instant damage, Psi storm is damage over time. Meaning you can alleviate most of the damage if you walk out of it.
EPT
Maybe some patchwerk changes will be sufficient to make him hold on.
