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On August 15 2010 22:17 Slunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 22:01 ItsTheFark wrote:On August 15 2010 21:50 Dream- wrote:On August 15 2010 21:38 Voyager I wrote:
Marauders have a worse damage output than Marines... Uhh... I hope thats a joke.. Marauders do 10 damage (20 vs Armored) and attack 1.5 attack speed. Marines do 6 damage and attack at .86 speed. In short, against light units, or air units, Marines take it, obviously. Against anything else? Marauders do more, not to mention they have almost 3 times as much health as marines without the shield upgrade. Yes but you can have two marines per one marauder. Not to mention the 25 gas also for a marauder so if you are doing a 2:1 Mineral:Gas conversion thats actually three marines. The problem with this kind of thinking is that damage distribution is not equal for all marines. one marauder has more HP than two marines AND he deals hisdamage until the whole HP are gone. The DPS of two marines however gets cut in half once one of them is dead. Additionally, marines take way more damage than marauders from splash. Also note that stim is like 100% more effective when used on marauders than on marines. Marauders are the best vs. ground unit in the game. They even roflstomp units that are supposed to counter them and are ridiculously effective in low numbers.
Yes, but it only works like that in small numbers, like literally comparing one Marauder against two or three Marines. Once you start getting into the midgame where the damage output of armies vastly eclipses the health total of any individual unit, this dynamic becomes nearly insignificant.
Marauders are far superior to Marines in micro battles because they are hardier, less hurt by stims, and better at kiting thanks to concussive shells and their slow rate of fire. Marines lose a lot of their damage output if they can't stand still and get picked off easily, especially before Combat Shields are in play. That's why Marauders are such a dominant unit in the early game. However, in larger numbers, those small-scale oriented effects become less significant, and the facts that they do less damage than Marines, even against armored targets, and can't shoot air become telling issues.
Obviously Marines aren't the perfect unit. They're very sensitive to any sort of armor or damage reduction (although this can also work in your favor if you get ahead on upgrades) and get absolutely demolished by splash damage where Marauders would merely suffer. However, between not costing any gas, putting out a lot of hurt on targets of any sort, making a passable AA force without teching to anything, and even being better tanks against things with bonus damaged to armored, you really gotta give the Marine his due.
I still find it weird that people complain about Marauder drops sniping their buildings when a Marine drop can do it just as well and then clean up any workers twice as quickly. I guess Marauders have a bit more burst damage, but that's not going to be a major factor unless you've let them drop enough to two-shot your Nexus.
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I hope its Terran that gets nerfed rather than Zerg being buffed as ZvP is fine whereas TvZ and TvP is broken.
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On August 16 2010 01:08 Consummate wrote:
I hope its Terran that gets nerfed rather than Zerg being buffed as ZvP is fine whereas TvZ and TvP is broken.
Very insightful, TvP being broken has to be a joke, right?
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People saying TvP is broken are a joke.
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TvP imbalance isn't out of the realm of possibilities too, terrans are dominating tournaments, not terrans and protoss.
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PvT isn't broken, but terran has an unduly large mid-game/tier 2 advantage over protoss due to the strength of bio. Tier 1 and Tier 3 are both fine.
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I heard Idra practice 1/3 Terran 2/3 Zerg aswell.
I am a random player and have a 66% winrate - guess were all the looses come from :D
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make it so Marauders can't stim pack. would fix both TvZ and TvP. no more kiting bullshit. you heard it here first.
what other unit in the game have both speed boost and a SLOW? you can't have both when other race have none.
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how about BW imbalance at higher level? didn't everyone say Terran was OP but only when pros played it?
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Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both
P and Z.
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On August 16 2010 01:28 Consummate wrote:
Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both
P and Z.
Protoss have many ways to effectively deal with tanks, zerg don't until utralisks come out.
Phoenixes + gateways can nullify tanks allowing gateway units to rip through marines and robo units are fairly good against tanks as well and protoss doesn't have nearly the disadvantage teching to these options that zerg does getting stuff out
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i think this will make dimaga lose a lot of respect. I mean seriously i can understand having to produce results but i mean changing your race or even thinking about before the first fucking balance patch is out. This is kind of overboard. Sure ZvT sucks but only the early game tanks suck but that's about it. I think alot of people just need to chill their tits. but eh i have no place to talk im only a 400 rating diamond player =\
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remove stim from marauders and all the balance problems are solved
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On August 16 2010 01:24 Roe wrote:
how about BW imbalance at higher level? didn't everyone say Terran was OP but only when pros played it?
The advantage of T in BW is so slight though that it's barely recognizable. It's only recognizable in the fact that T wins *slightly* more tournaments and 3/4 bonjwas have been T. Compare it to SC2, where damn near every tournament nowadays is won by a T and might even be a TvT finals.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
Stalkers can take several hits from Tanks. You also have Phoenixes, Void Rays, Immortals, and Storm. Tanks are not nearly as large of a problem for P.
i think this will make dimaga lose a lot of respect. I mean seriously i can understand having to produce results but i mean changing your race or even thinking about before the first fucking balance patch is out. This is kind of overboard. Sure ZvT sucks but only the early game tanks suck but that's about it. I think alot of people just need to chill their tits. but eh i have no place to talk im only a 400 rating diamond player =\
He won't lose any respect, because reasonable people know the truth. Not only is this is job and he needs good results, Blizzard is takin' their sweet damn time doing something. We've known about this problem since beta, and they have yet to give Zerg a quality fix while subtly buffing Terran here and there.
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On August 16 2010 01:28 Consummate wrote:
Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both
P and Z.
I'm guessing you've never heard of the immortal. (if you say EMP i'll just say high templar)
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I'm guessing you've never heard of the immortal. (if you say EMP i'll just say high templar)
once you reach Critical mass of tanks, Immortal no longer counter them, no amount of Immortals, but thats not realy a problem.
the problem for protoss are the very very early marauder pushes (1-2 marauders + 2-3 marines) that can not realy be fought off, but instead require Sentry play to delay, giving the terran map control for a very small price.
EMP is also a problem, High Templars do not realy counter Ghosts.
there is a very intresting article from a while ago that also had a a section about EMP in it and how it is broken because it is instand.
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On August 16 2010 01:24 Roe wrote:
how about BW imbalance at higher level? didn't everyone say Terran was OP but only when pros played it?
I was under the impression that BW was a different game.
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On August 16 2010 01:32 Sputty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 01:28 Consummate wrote:
Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both
P and Z. Protoss have many ways to effectively deal with tanks, zerg don't until utralisks come out. Phoenixes + gateways can nullify tanks allowing gateway units to rip through marines and robo units are fairly good against tanks as well and protoss doesn't have nearly the disadvantage teching to these options that zerg does getting stuff out
You will need a few Phoenixes otherwise they will get picked off, and if Phoenixes are the proper counter to Siege tanks (Immortals are supposed to be, but first they have to get thru all that Bio first), that is pretty pathetic. I have yet to see a Protoss actually do this, but whatever, lets assume you're correct (despite the fact every Terran player has their own theory on the counter to Siege tanks that aren't logically sound).
If I get enough phoenixes to gravitational beam and kill all your Siege tanks, likely I wouldn't have the gateway units to beat your Bio blob, unless I out macro'd you.
Gateway units won't be able to "nullify" siege tanks unless they reach the siege tanks in the first place, take into account their enormous range which guarantees them to die last in the fight unless you ran right thru their bio blob and went for them first, which means their bio will tear you apart. I also like how you make it sound as if Gateway units just own Terran T1 without any problem whatsoever, I am fairly sure those Marauders ensure that those Zealots can't get close, and can beat mass Stalkers too, which means that Protoss have to rely on advantageous terrain to be able to trap them with Sentries so the zealots can get to them, and that isn't exactly fair to assume can happen in every fight.
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On August 15 2010 04:15 KenShi wrote:
LOL. Nope Terran isnt OP he's just bad with Zerg. Oh god
I'm so glad you're banned.
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On August 16 2010 01:40 RandomBS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 01:28 Consummate wrote:
Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both
P and Z. I'm guessing you've never heard of the immortal. (if you say EMP i'll just say high templar)
If you say high templar I say EMP is AoE and feedback is single targeted. I will also say that Ghosts can go invisible, and EMP has a longer range.
So to assume I can feedback your Ghosts before you EMP me, means that you were unable to EMP me before I individually selected your ghosts in your huge blob to feedback them all.
You can't seriously be that bias.... Can you?
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EPT
