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On August 15 2010 22:01 ItsTheFark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 21:50 Dream- wrote:On August 15 2010 21:38 Voyager I wrote:
Marauders have a worse damage output than Marines... Uhh... I hope thats a joke.. Marauders do 10 damage (20 vs Armored) and attack 1.5 attack speed. Marines do 6 damage and attack at .86 speed. In short, against light units, or air units, Marines take it, obviously. Against anything else? Marauders do more, not to mention they have almost 3 times as much health as marines without the shield upgrade. Yes but you can have two marines per one marauder. Not to mention the 25 gas also for a marauder so if you are doing a 2:1 Mineral:Gas conversion thats actually three marines.
The problem with this kind of thinking is that damage distribution is not equal for all marines. one marauder has more HP than two marines AND he deals hisdamage until the whole HP are gone. The DPS of two marines however gets cut in half once one of them is dead. Additionally, marines take way more damage than marauders from splash. Also note that stim is like 100% more effective when used on marauders than on marines. Marauders are the best vs. ground unit in the game. They even roflstomp units that are supposed to counter them and are ridiculously effective in low numbers.
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Got to love the zerg players, The race of complainers
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On August 15 2010 22:20 -StrifeX- wrote:
Got to love the zerg players, The race of complainers
Hey man, when the top players from the beta, the top players from the foreign scene, and the top Korean zerg players are switching races, theres a freaking problem. grow up bro. 3 Months ago Tester predicted this. All throughout beta he was considered the best player in the world. He still is arguably.
http://www.scforall.com/sctv/sc_tv01.asp?mNum=s03&movNum=449
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Lol I switched to toss from Z a week ago because I got too frustrated with the race, and I'm already doing fine with toss. This saddens me though, everybody switching! I will probably come back to Z the moment some nice changes come about :-)
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On August 15 2010 22:20 -StrifeX- wrote:
Got to love the Terran players, The race of Denial
FTFY
Balance issues arise in competitive games...
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Yes but you can have two marines per one marauder. Not to mention the 25 gas also for a marauder so if you are doing a 2:1 Mineral:Gas conversion thats actually three marines.
this is flawed.
1. Marauders deal there full damage until he dies, 3 Marines will loose 1/3 of there DPS after the first marine dies and then lose again 1/2 the DPS after the second one dies, at that point, the marauder still does his full damage.
2. add one armor to a target, the marines now lose 1/6 of there DPS, a marauder will lose 1/10 or 1/20 if the target is rated as armored, add for example guardian shield of the protoss and the DPS of marines becomes almost funy, the merauders are not realy bothered by either of those.
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On August 15 2010 22:28 Phayze wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 22:20 -StrifeX- wrote:
Got to love the zerg players, The race of complainers Hey man, when the top players from the beta, the top players from the foreign scene, and the top Korean zerg players are switching races, theres a freaking problem. grow up bro. 3 Months ago Tester predicted this. All throughout beta he was considered the best player in the world. He still is arguably. http://www.scforall.com/sctv/sc_tv01.asp?mNum=s03&movNum=449
there is only 1 person who considered tester to be the best player in beta- Artosis.
The real best player in beta is now considering switching races, as per this thread.
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Saying Blizzard isn't doing anything is stupid. The game has been out for 3 weeks. After release they probably had a week or two of cooldown as most developers do because they work so hard leading up to release (like, 70-80 hour work weeks.) So they are likely working on a fix, but the balance issue is complicated because it isn't due to any one build or unit, and they also don't want to affect the balance of TvP or ZvP.
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On August 15 2010 22:45 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 22:28 Phayze wrote:On August 15 2010 22:20 -StrifeX- wrote:
Got to love the zerg players, The race of complainers Hey man, when the top players from the beta, the top players from the foreign scene, and the top Korean zerg players are switching races, theres a freaking problem. grow up bro. 3 Months ago Tester predicted this. All throughout beta he was considered the best player in the world. He still is arguably. http://www.scforall.com/sctv/sc_tv01.asp?mNum=s03&movNum=449 there is only 1 person who considered tester to be the best player in beta- Artosis. The real best player in beta is now considering switching races, as per this thread.
+ Show Spoiler +?? No, I'm not switching races.
I disagree with your "the best player in the best[..]" There is no real way to determine that, If he was on the Korean Ladder he would have a 50% win ratio. They are far ahead of any foreigner.
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An issue I am surprised nobody has brought up was why there was a zerg imbalance way back in beta. Not the op roach, but zerg in general. Artosis wrote an article which basically stated zerg seemed OP because it had less tools to deal with. Players could experiment through the relatively smaller number of strategies faster, and thus figure what works faster. Zerg players got better faster while P and T were still experimenting. They knew their race and their limits while T and P could not say the same.
Now P and T have had time to catch up, and seem stronger because they have more tools to work with. And in reality, they are. How much so is not apparent yet, but I doubt a magic bisu build will come to save our collective zerg asses (yes I know bisu build was a protoss build). Without magic micro like old muta micro, the state of the game will stay the same, and blizz would not introduce such an unstable element.
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marauders should not be stim-able. they do ridiculous damage against armored units and are T1, why the hell make them run faster and even do more damage..
i mean it should be common sense .. a unit which does huge damage should have a low attack-rate
and units which do low damage should have a high attack rate..
i mean thats a basic of every RTS out there, stim completely fucks that up
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lol
User was warned for this post
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On August 15 2010 22:45 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 22:28 Phayze wrote:On August 15 2010 22:20 -StrifeX- wrote:
Got to love the zerg players, The race of complainers Hey man, when the top players from the beta, the top players from the foreign scene, and the top Korean zerg players are switching races, theres a freaking problem. grow up bro. 3 Months ago Tester predicted this. All throughout beta he was considered the best player in the world. He still is arguably. http://www.scforall.com/sctv/sc_tv01.asp?mNum=s03&movNum=449 there is only 1 person who considered tester to be the best player in beta- Artosis. The real best player in beta is now considering switching races, as per this thread.
<Insert irrational Terran denial here>
The case is really closed to be honest. too much evidence, too many players unhappy, prepare for Incoming changes.
I know Terran are on the denial offensive, as if their denial will somehow divert Blizzard from looking into the problem. "I hear Zerg has a problem? oh, Terran players say they are fine? Carry on then." But this is just standard defense mode for class/race loyalty, sad but predictable behavior.
But i doubt there will be Terran Nerfs, or at least nothing drastic. Something like concussive shells or siege tech cost/time, maybe a build time increased, nothing game breaking. 50 minerals here, 2 seconds there.
I'm leaning more towards Some slight Zerg buffs, whether to spawn larva or some research costs and build times. I doubt any severe or drastic changes will occur like food count on roaches, new spells or units until the expansion.
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On August 15 2010 22:51 Bair wrote:
An issue I am surprised nobody has brought up was why there was a zerg imbalance way back in beta. Not the op roach, but zerg in general. Artosis wrote an article which basically stated zerg seemed OP because it had less tools to deal with. Players could experiment through the relatively smaller number of strategies faster, and thus figure what works faster. Zerg players got better faster while P and T were still experimenting. They knew their race and their limits while T and P could not say the same.
Now P and T have had time to catch up, and seem stronger because they have more tools to work with. And in reality, they are. How much so is not apparent yet, but I doubt a magic bisu build will come to save our collective zerg asses (yes I know bisu build was a protoss build). Without magic micro like old muta micro, the state of the game will stay the same, and blizz would not introduce such an unstable element.
Before Artosis chose zerg as his race he was leading the charge against roaches and inject larva
After Artosis chose zerg (and before roach nerfs) he justified that zerg was stronger than other races because it had less units, so the players mastered that race faster than P or T mastered theirs. This explanation of course disregards the fact that P and T should technically adapt to Zerg faster because of the low unit count.
The truth was, early beta Zerg was overpowered, they got nerfed. Terran was seen as underpowered and they got buffed. At this point, their roles are reversed. There's no great mystery to it
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I think it's a very good idea to do something about marauders. They are sooo easy to tech to, concussive shell is basically free, and they're strong as hell. If Z goes roaches, Terran can always respond fast with marauders. They're just strong as hell for their cost, and it shows by them being the backbone of the terran army in so many instances now
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On August 15 2010 22:49 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 22:45 Sfydjklm wrote:On August 15 2010 22:28 Phayze wrote:On August 15 2010 22:20 -StrifeX- wrote:
Got to love the zerg players, The race of complainers Hey man, when the top players from the beta, the top players from the foreign scene, and the top Korean zerg players are switching races, theres a freaking problem. grow up bro. 3 Months ago Tester predicted this. All throughout beta he was considered the best player in the world. He still is arguably. http://www.scforall.com/sctv/sc_tv01.asp?mNum=s03&movNum=449 there is only 1 person who considered tester to be the best player in beta- Artosis. The real best player in beta is now considering switching races, as per this thread. + Show Spoiler +?? No, I'm not switching races. I disagree with your "the best player in the best[..]" There is no real way to determine that, If he was on the Korean Ladder he would have a 50% win ratio. They are far ahead of any foreigner.
yea thats why dimaga placed 2nd in that World Cup tournaments that had creme de la creme of the Asian ladder in it.
Why do people make this silly arguments. Result wise Dimaga head and shoulders above all. You could argue that you cant claim that Huk or Ra are better then tester because they never challenged Koreans in a tournament, but Dimaga has and he lost 3-4 in the finals against Cool.
So.
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On August 15 2010 22:56 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 22:51 Bair wrote:
An issue I am surprised nobody has brought up was why there was a zerg imbalance way back in beta. Not the op roach, but zerg in general. Artosis wrote an article which basically stated zerg seemed OP because it had less tools to deal with. Players could experiment through the relatively smaller number of strategies faster, and thus figure what works faster. Zerg players got better faster while P and T were still experimenting. They knew their race and their limits while T and P could not say the same.
Now P and T have had time to catch up, and seem stronger because they have more tools to work with. And in reality, they are. How much so is not apparent yet, but I doubt a magic bisu build will come to save our collective zerg asses (yes I know bisu build was a protoss build). Without magic micro like old muta micro, the state of the game will stay the same, and blizz would not introduce such an unstable element. Before Artosis chose zerg as his race he was leading the charge against roaches and inject larva After Artosis chose zerg (and before roach nerfs) he justified that zerg was stronger than other races because it had less units, so the players mastered that race faster than P or T mastered theirs. This explanation of course disregards the fact that P and T should technically adapt to Zerg faster because of the low unit count. The truth was, early beta Zerg was overpowered, they got nerfed. Terran was seen as underpowered and they got buffed. At this point, their roles are reversed. There's no great mystery to it
Zerg was OP. I do not disagree with that. But to saying that P and T should have an easier time learning how to counter Z because the low unit count is not true. Inversly P and T should have a harder time figuring out a counter because of a greater number of units to experiment with.
Terran vs Zerg has issues, but it lies with Z generally having no option. Terran is not overpowered, rather (and I know this is saying nothing new) but zerg is poorly designed. Zerg has no real options against P or T than survive and outmacro.
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On August 15 2010 04:46 iEchoic wrote:
Sen was a god among Z players. His ZvT was shockingly strong, and if Zerg players used him as a role model instead of idrA I think there'd be a lot less whining and a lot more winning.
sen also admitted that ZvT is a really hard matchup...
But gotta agree that this is not all the matchup its fault. I've watched a lot of dimaga his game and they involve a very very very very late lair and no scouting at all after the initial overlord. He just plays in the dark and loses a lot of games he could have won.
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Either way, tester was probably the king of the beta. Dimaga is very good, but he did resort to all in styles for so long. Im sure we're going to be seeing a very good terran popping up from him here in the coming weeks though. My point was, that tester really did dominate during the beta. Dimaga won with really strong zerg all ins despite being amazing at starcraft. He will be a good terran, and maybe blizzard will see that they need to change a few things.
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I remember this one time, I cried because I had to switch races, and later realized no one cared because it wont affect them when I go down the street and buy a WHALE.
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EPT
