On August 16 2010 01:28 Consummate wrote: Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both P and Z.
I'm guessing you've never heard of the immortal. (if you say EMP i'll just say high templar)
If you say high templar I say EMP is AoE and feedback is single targeted. I will also say that Ghosts can go invisible, and EMP has a longer range.
So to assume I can feedback your Ghosts before you EMP me, means that you were unable to EMP me before I individually selected your ghosts in your huge blob to feedback them all.
You can't seriously be that bias.... Can you?
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to feedback ghosts? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill.
Immortals don't really work against Tank/Marine compositions anyways. Maybe if you sent a few in ahead to soak the first volleys of Tank fire, but other than that they're never gonna get through the Marines to actually use their +30 damage and their shields don't hold up against piles of splash and 6 damage attacks.
This isn't to say that Protoss can't deal with Tanks, because they can; just that Immortals generally aren't the solution.
For some reason, every "counter" to Siege tanks seem to assume that all the Terran player has is siege tanks. Sure, if that's the case, there are many counters to them. But if you actually care about realism in this issue, you would know they are supported by Marines and Marauders, and will also be at the back of the army where they are safe.
Air units ARE NOT a counter to siege tanks, have you seen how quickly Marines tear up void rays? If you build enough Phoenixes to counter Siege tanks, you sure as hell can't kill his Marines & Marauders, so throw that idea out of the window.
Immortals are good, but you need to get past his bio, and they will just get focus fired out if you even tried to run them past his bio to suicide kill the siege tanks.
Flanking isn't worth it unless you have a bigger army so you can actually do it, sure, you will kill the siege tanks, but you will lose all your units in the process while half his bio still stands. It's not fair to assume you have a larger army, unless you're an idiot.
Well there's no denying anymore.. all tournaments are so dominated by terrans it's quite frankly getting boring. Only craftcup I think had only 1/4 terrans in last 4. I think zotac or something is going on.. and it's all terran.. and they're all trying to cheese each-other I guess even the terrans are SO sick of TvT haha. Blizz patch plz. I wouldn't mind if they OP zerg for a while so many will switch (back).
On August 16 2010 01:28 Consummate wrote: Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both P and Z.
I'm guessing you've never heard of the immortal. (if you say EMP i'll just say high templar)
If you say high templar I say EMP is AoE and feedback is single targeted. I will also say that Ghosts can go invisible, and EMP has a longer range.
So to assume I can feedback your Ghosts before you EMP me, means that you were unable to EMP me before I individually selected your ghosts in your huge blob to feedback them all.
You can't seriously be that bias.... Can you?
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to feedback ghosts? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill.
Your original one liner was wrong. So your argument and subsequent arguments based on the first argument are flawed.
imho the only problem with tvp is that early bio pressure is slightly too strong with marauders being tough, dealing lots of dam and being cheap at the same time. cheap and quickly available stim and concussive shells further add to this issue.
basically a protoss needs either colossi, storms or massive amounts of chargelots to effectively fight a big bio ball - but the bio ball and its crucial upgrades are much much lower on the tech tree, giving terran the control during late tier 1 until well into tier 2. with tanks, ghosts and medivacs as very strong and easy follow-ups, its quite easy for terrans to strengthen their lead, in case they havent killed u yet with the early bio aggression.
so yes, imho there is even t>p imbalance in the tvp matchup, but its only a very small imbalance, overall, tvp is by far the most balanced of the 3 matchups.
On August 16 2010 01:28 Consummate wrote: Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both P and Z.
I'm guessing you've never heard of the immortal. (if you say EMP i'll just say high templar)
If you say high templar I say EMP is AoE and feedback is single targeted. I will also say that Ghosts can go invisible, and EMP has a longer range.
So to assume I can feedback your Ghosts before you EMP me, means that you were unable to EMP me before I individually selected your ghosts in your huge blob to feedback them all.
You can't seriously be that bias.... Can you?
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to feedback ghosts? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill.
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to shoot 1 EMP from one of your several ghosts before he individually selects all your Ghosts with his High Templar to feedback them? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill
While we are on the topic of Ghosts, lets not forget they take half of all the Protoss hp instantly with 1 skill, additionally, eats the energy of all the units caught in it too. I wish Zerg or Protoss had a unit that did that too...
It's amazing that not many people use Ghosts that often in the TvP matchup despite how incredibly effective EMP is against them, but that's only because everyone is so used to Siege tanks.
On August 16 2010 01:28 Consummate wrote: Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both P and Z.
I'm guessing you've never heard of the immortal. (if you say EMP i'll just say high templar)
If you say high templar I say EMP is AoE and feedback is single targeted. I will also say that Ghosts can go invisible, and EMP has a longer range.
So to assume I can feedback your Ghosts before you EMP me, means that you were unable to EMP me before I individually selected your ghosts in your huge blob to feedback them all.
You can't seriously be that bias.... Can you?
Agreed. Ohh, and u forgot about the part when ghost can shoot air and ground and gets EMP spell for FREE from a building that costs 50 (FIFTY!) gas and deals 100 dmg instantly AND (u see thats a lot of and..) can call down huge area dmg nukes, can also cloak, has faster move speed than HT. Compare all that for 2 extra buildings needed for HT that both cost 100 gas and also a research of 200/200 for the spell. All that just to be able to stand a chance against mass marines?? A tier one unit costing 50 min?
Im sorry for bein off topic but could not stand him being so biased and ignorant.
ZvP is almost balanced exept the fact zerg needs to survive colossi untill broodlords or ultras come and that time is not soon enough. They need their hive tech faster. Not too fast, but yeah a bit faster than it is now. Corrupters are not a counter to colossi (im not gonna get into why within this thread).
On August 16 2010 01:28 Consummate wrote: Siege tanks are as painful against Zerg as they are against Protoss. The only thing that adds insult to the injury for Zerg is how effective Thors are against their air units, while Protoss air can hold their own against Thors. The difference is, that Marines are A LOT more painful against Protoss air than they are against Zerg air. Which eliminates any air counter to Siege tanks for both teams.
Siege tanks are an issue in both TvZ and TvP match ups, if you disagree, you're delusional. Watch replays, Siege tanks smash Zerg ground as hard as they smash Protoss ground units. The only difference is that Zerg have mutalisks to kill Siege tanks that are effective if Terran doesn't have Thors, whereas against Protoss, all they need are marines for air counters to be worthless.
The fact is, that the counter to Siege tanks is out macroing the Terran player for a larger army to overwhelm his bio to enable him to reach his mech. Air units are simply out of the question for both P and Z.
I'm guessing you've never heard of the immortal. (if you say EMP i'll just say high templar)
If you say high templar I say EMP is AoE and feedback is single targeted. I will also say that Ghosts can go invisible, and EMP has a longer range.
So to assume I can feedback your Ghosts before you EMP me, means that you were unable to EMP me before I individually selected your ghosts in your huge blob to feedback them all.
You can't seriously be that bias.... Can you?
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to feedback ghosts? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill.
So your entire argument is that you don't have the micro to shoot 1 EMP from one of your several ghosts before he individually selects all your Ghosts with his High Templar to feedback them? Alrighty then I can't argue against a lack of player skill
While we are on the topic of Ghosts, lets not forget they take half of all the Protoss hp instantly with 1 skill, additionally, eats the energy of all the units caught in it too. I wish Zerg or Protoss had a unit that did that too...
It's amazing that not many people use Ghosts that often in the TvP matchup despite how incredibly effective EMP is against them, but that's only because everyone is so used to Siege tanks.
It's also because of the cost of building the ghost aca as well as the time to build it and the time needed to generate the energy. let's not forget you don't have to have your units all clumped up in a bunch. That's the thing about the new 'balling" of units in sc2 and 1 group, it makes you arrange your units in more favourable positions to win. In your example you say the Terran has several ghosts, so if your macro is close to his you should have a comparable amount of templars and/or units, not just a few templars. This video demonstrates my point, or request for your attention to these few details that might help bring balance and turn the tide in your favour.
On August 16 2010 02:34 Voyager I wrote: Love P players who claim that EMP does 100 damage to units with less than 100 shields. Yeah, it's good, but Storm is plenty vicious itself.
Ohh i do apologise. It does 40% dmg overall(or average, woteva u call it) to all toss units in a large radius. Does that make u feel better?
Tell u what, why dont we trade? Teran can have a spell that does 80 dmg over TIME (4 sec) to shields and hp and to have it reserched from starport for 200/200. And i can have a spell that does 40%dmg to all of ur units instantly and within large radius from a cloacked, speed buffed, armed with pew pew lazers that shoot air and ground Hight Templar. Hows that? sounds pretty fair right?
On August 16 2010 02:34 Voyager I wrote: Love P players who claim that EMP does 100 damage to units with less than 100 shields. Yeah, it's good, but Storm is plenty vicious itself.
Ohh i do apologise. It does 40% dmg overall(or average, woteva u call it) to all toss units in a large radius. Does that make u feel better?
Tell u what, why dont we trade? Teran can have a spell that does 80 dmg over TIME (4 sec) to shields and hp and to have it reserched from starport for 200/200. And i can have a spell that does 40%dmg to all of ur units instantly and within large radius from a cloacked, speed buffed, armed with pew pew lazers that shoot air and ground Hight Templar. Hows that? sounds pretty fair right?
Just because one matchup is broken doesn't mean everyone gets to blame it on the race whenever they lose to a Terran. If it gets any worse we're gonna have T players call each other imba after every loss.
And as for that trade, absolutely. I'd happily take Psi Storm in exchange for something that does 20 damage to Marines.
The biggest evidence against T is pretty clear in the tournament scene. Just look at how Teran is way overrepresented in the later stages of ANY tournament. Look at how many ok players are doing amazing in tournaments and pulling upsets while playing Terran.
Seriously Silver, Masq, Drewbie and all those guys are good, but no where near Idra or Huk for instance and yet they beat them. You tell me, how many up and comer P or Z do we see in tournaments? None
On August 16 2010 02:34 Voyager I wrote: Love P players who claim that EMP does 100 damage to units with less than 100 shields. Yeah, it's good, but Storm is plenty vicious itself.
Ohh i do apologise. It does 40% dmg overall(or average, woteva u call it) to all toss units in a large radius. Does that make u feel better?
Tell u what, why dont we trade? Teran can have a spell that does 80 dmg over TIME (4 sec) to shields and hp and to have it reserched from starport for 200/200. And i can have a spell that does 40%dmg to all of ur units instantly and within large radius from a cloacked, speed buffed, armed with pew pew lazers that shoot air and ground Hight Templar. Hows that? sounds pretty fair right?
+ EMP drains all energy lmfao
I can totally see why he is considering this seeing how overpowered Terran is at the moment.
EPT
