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On August 15 2010 09:11 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 09:10 zimz wrote:
change marauder and marine damage lower or make there build time longer or make marauder n marines have less hp. or just make balanced maps instead of cliffs and narrow corridors all over the place. terran is fine, maps are not.
Top zergs arent switching to Terran because they are "fine" they are switching because its a well known fact Terran IS the strongest race right now, a lesser skilled terran can beat better players just because you cant defend everything terran does as they have 50000 diff openings all of which have diff counters and guess what? prepare for the wrong one and die, tahts how it goes, you cant fuck around vs terran or you'll lose.
On August 15 2010 09:23 Carnagath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 04:35 AcOrP wrote:
Laddering korean zergs can have good results but as it is right now. You can lose ZvT vs alot less skilled terran. You can ask IdrA how it feel to know you have advantage the whole game map control crazy macro to play perfectly and still lose. Becouse terram is OP. I feel sorry that so many great zerg players switched to T... Whenever Blizzard patch and balance things out many wont bother to switch back to zerg as it will require time and practice...I wish we had 2-3 month longer beta and perfect balance between the races than this... Idra is an idiot, he wants the game to play itself while he stands around spreading creep and scratching his balls, he can't 1base, always FE's and loses to cliff tanks or similar ridiculous things and then trashtalks people. The one time he sat his ass down and studied his opponents and actually played like an intelligent human and not a macro bot he destroyed everything. Check is doing phenomenal. Dimaga is occasionally flawless but unfortunately not stable as a player, sometimes he sucks. I'm sick of this Zerg QQ of idiots who want to play defensively vs Terran and then have to inevitably face the mech ball with food limit of units that are not meant for that. Madfrog seems to have the playstyle down and played some amazing games. The game is new (yes, that includes the beta) and strategies are still being mapped, how about be patient and perfect your own play... Or you can QQ some more, whatever rocks your boat.
You throw around QQ like this is WoW? It isnt,Idra was the top non korean in BW and it beckon he is now, saying he's stupid etc is just ignorant and stupid, I bet youre a terran player which is why your bias is so big, or Idra bmed one of your players and youre butthurt over it.
You cant stop terran when they go for mech because guess what?
Tanks rape all ground units ever, if terran goes defensive what do you do to stop him? expand make units and throw them at the army over and over and hope you dont lose, this obviously doesnt work or people wouldnt be complaining about it
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Having a job that is depending on whether a 1 month old game is balanced or not might be the issue.
Looking back at SC1 / BW / WC3 / TFT, basically all previous blizzard games, I'm sure we wont see a very balanced SC2 over the next couple of months.
By playing the "underpowered race" and showing blizzard there is "nothing" u can do, no matter what, might be a better approach than switching to the "overpowered race". Not only for your team, but for the entire community...
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On August 15 2010 09:35 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 09:11 jalstar wrote:On August 15 2010 09:10 zimz wrote:
change marauder and marine damage lower or make there build time longer or make marauder n marines have less hp. or just make balanced maps instead of cliffs and narrow corridors all over the place. terran is fine, maps are not. Top zergs arent switching to Terran because they are "fine" they are switching because its a well known fact Terran IS the strongest race right now, a lesser skilled terran can beat better players just because you cant defend everything terran does as they have 50000 diff openings all of which have diff counters and guess what? prepare for the wrong one and die, tahts how it goes, you cant fuck around vs terran or you'll lose.
way to ignore the important part of my post
look at showmatches on custom maps, zerg have been winning those at a decent rate even after phase 2 started (which is when people started complaining about terran)
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Hasn't Dimaga lost to Protoss in all of the recent, significant tournaments?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On August 15 2010 08:37 Traveler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 08:28 Meff wrote:On August 15 2010 08:20 Traveler wrote:Hmm, so you are saying we introduce a race that has a 63% win ratio against each matchup, that it will always win 63% of the time. I think you are forgetting how this will affect the win ratios of the other races. If this race wins 63% of the time then the other races collectively are all averaging 37% against this race. Meaning all of their win ratios would decrease relative to this new race, meaning we would have imbalanced statistics.
Sorry nice try there, it almost got me for 10 seconds. Oh, good observation. Scrap the 63%, in that case, and substitute it with the adjusted average of the other races at balance point (you've surely taken a dynamical systems course along the statistics one, right?) Nope, simply an entering college freshman with two formulas to his name already (approximating factorials backwards, even without the need for integer factorials), I simply like mathematics.
you invented some math? props
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On August 15 2010 09:46 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 08:37 Traveler wrote:On August 15 2010 08:28 Meff wrote:On August 15 2010 08:20 Traveler wrote:Hmm, so you are saying we introduce a race that has a 63% win ratio against each matchup, that it will always win 63% of the time. I think you are forgetting how this will affect the win ratios of the other races. If this race wins 63% of the time then the other races collectively are all averaging 37% against this race. Meaning all of their win ratios would decrease relative to this new race, meaning we would have imbalanced statistics.
Sorry nice try there, it almost got me for 10 seconds. Oh, good observation. Scrap the 63%, in that case, and substitute it with the adjusted average of the other races at balance point (you've surely taken a dynamical systems course along the statistics one, right?) Nope, simply an entering college freshman with two formulas to his name already (approximating factorials backwards, even without the need for integer factorials), I simply like mathematics. you invented some math? props
It looks like he just rediscovered the Gamma function. Haha.
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A bigger deal to me is that Zerg simply isn't fun. I'm a macro player at heart, so I tried Zerg, and I wanted to pull my hair out. It was sheer tedium. Cast Spawn Larvae at 25 energy, and the cooldown isn't up until 22 energy -- miss it by 10 seconds, and you'll never catch back up. The stress of just dealing with the queens took all the enjoyment out of playing Zerg.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137820
Watch game 3 especially. Terran, specifically mech, is not imba against zerg on a big, open map. None of the maps in the current pool are big or open.
On August 15 2010 09:49 Sentient wrote:
A bigger deal to me is that Zerg simply isn't fun. I'm a macro player at heart, so I tried Zerg, and I wanted to pull my hair out. It was sheer tedium. Cast Spawn Larvae at 25 energy, and the cooldown isn't up until 22 energy -- miss it by 10 seconds, and you'll never catch back up. The stress of just dealing with the queens took all the enjoyment out of playing Zerg.
This is why I stopped playing random during phase 1 when Zerg was "good".
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On August 15 2010 09:22 Orange Goblin wrote:
I'm pretty sure T1 Hydras are out of the question. That won't make any sense at all. Everyone will start one-basing Hydras and roflstomp every other build. It could be balanced out with higher gas costs, maybe, but still. What does P/T have early on that can compete with fast Hydras?
Buffing the Roach is also hard imho. Also, I'm not even sure it would make that much of a difference.
I think everyone can agree that the way Z functions early game right now is just silly. People are talking about ridiculous things like nydus. Guess what, that's late game, chum, that's not the problem.
Is it ridiculously imbalanced? Not really, but the problem is that you need to have perfect micro if you're going to defend two-basing against a good player. One-basing is basically the same as an very early push.
As Z vs anyone skilled, you simply haven't got any way to force plays. Why does everyone (except the Z players) think it's OK that one race always have to play solely reactively, and not be able to be aggressive? Being aggressive as Z early game is going all-in, while P and T have no problems transitioning into whatever they goddamn please after being aggressive.
Why is that OK? Why are you afraid of giving Z options early game? Afraid you actually have to do some micro for a change?
This isn't really about buffing Z as a whole. It's about giving Z a similar bag of tricks at skill levels where things aren't about luck (the very top few players in the ladder right now, don't even bother saying just "diamond", people in diamond aren't that good). People using ladder statistics aren't really understanding the problem. Those few players won't show up on those statistics. Scrub players will be able to win with Z just fine. But even so, they will have the same limited options as the good players early game, and while this isn't going to be a huge issue (at least not for a while), it's still a bit boring to play, because they will still have to mostly be the reactive player.
I agree with almost all of this, thanks for posting this. Zerg is fun to play and all, but i hate it that im constantly reacting to my enemy, and it bothers me even more that the few things i do have to provoke a reaction out of them are EASILY countered. (mutas, roach burrow, infestor NP)
Im sure it will get balanced, Blizzard™ almost always pulls through in the end. I just am getting impatient waiting for the day all of us zergs can look back and laugh about how imbalanced the game was and how pissed off zerg was right after the game launched.
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Progamer going from Z to T. RIDICULOUS.
Why not then o from Z to P, to make it less obvious.
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Machine JUST mentioned on the Green Cafe stream he too will be switching to Terran if the next balance patch doesn't fix some things
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Haha, would love to see a race change. However, threatening to change race is just a cheap way to get attention, if he switches to terran and produces result, then it would be something. Otherwise, it's just more QQ.
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On August 15 2010 09:52 Keap wrote:
Machine JUST mentioned on the Green Cafe stream he too will be switching to Terran if the next balance patch doesn't fix some things
:-O
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i look forward to the next patch... it should be a good one for zerg. if not, dimaga wont be the only one switching
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On August 15 2010 09:44 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Hasn't Dimaga lost to Protoss in all of the recent, significant tournaments?
Thats Right!!
Offical Esl Tournaments:
Esl Go4sc2 24: He won it. (Beated jinro(t) in qfinal , lucifron(t) in semi final , sarens(t) in final.)
Esl Go4sc2 25: He didnt join it.
Esl Go4sc2 26: He won it. (beated morrow (t) semi final and socke(p) in final)
Esl Go4sc2 27: He lost to protoss player mouz)mana in 7th tour after bo1 game.
Sources:
http://www.esl.eu/eu/sc2/go4sc2/cup24/rankings/
s = /cup25/ /cup26/ /cup27/ all of them played after game relased.
So what's wrong with him? He's quite more successfull than most of terran players ..
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On August 15 2010 10:13 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 09:52 Keap wrote:
Machine JUST mentioned on the Green Cafe stream he too will be switching to Terran if the next balance patch doesn't fix some things :-O
wow. Now Idra needs to switch over. I wonder if he is still laddering with 1/3 terran
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All these news about zerg players swapping. makes me cry :/
Zerg Fighting!
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wow the best eu zerg considers switching his race because he feels he cannot win based on his skill. thats really bad news. somethings is wrong with the game...or maybe the best eu zerg is just too bad?
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On August 15 2010 10:30 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
wow the best eu zerg considers switching his race because he feels he cannot win based on his skill. thats really bad news. somethings is wrong with the game...or maybe the best eu zerg is just too bad?
really...why even make this post?
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i play terran and completely agree that the race is stupid broken. i switched from Z with 300 points and over 700 games at the very end of beta and now i've got 600+ in diamond as T with less than 100 games.
nerf hydra DPS, put them back at tier 1 and make hydra speed researchable again while nerfing their speed on creep. put roaches back at tier 2 with 2 armor. move banelings to tier 2. hydras + overlords with default detection basically put Z on equal footing with any of the several early game T strats. you also get the added possibilty of a hydra break in the early game which is a little more difficult to defend than just "lol make 7 roaches and die to one bunker." also, baneling busts are boring to watch, boring to defend against, and boring to do. hydra breaks are much more exciting. move marauders back in the tech tree, it's pretty stupid to have a siege unit that kills spines instantly available right away. but maybe earlier available hydras would make defending vs early bio aggression easier. spine root time and build time are really silly, since they don't finish even if you start as soon as T moves out. that means you have to build them blind if T denies scouting. that's also another factor of badly designed maps; on pretty much every pro bw map i can think of you can always place your ovie at T natural to see him move out or to get vision of some of his buildings, but except for kulas that's not possible in sc2. really small rush distances don't help.
increase magic box size so your units don't clump as much, and tanks become slightly less powerful, which should also benefit bio vs banelings.
should decrease mining efficiency so that 1 base play is a lot weaker than it is now. if you saturate earlier, your income is less and the extra workers you produce aren't worth as much until you expand. since expanding becomes more important, get rid of kulas and LT and all cliffable maps since the only purpose of cliffs is to be abused by one base terran.
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EPT
