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On August 05 2010 12:58 Medzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 12:41 Rinrun wrote:
I can see why they didn't include it in the MP, cause of that ball-unit-pathing-thing that units have would totally work in the Lurkers favour. That or they were just too lazy to tinker with the Lurker's attack and all that jazz. Did you look at the part where the tanks did near the same damage even though they walked right through their deadzone? Why is this acceptable for terrans but not for zerg?
That's not entirely fair. There was no real "dead zone" effect in the video because the dead zone is so small. The tanks were still firing the entire time.
Also, can't compare units 1:1, units serve different purposes for different races, races have different feels, etc etc etc.
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The Lurkers could have been a Tier 1 unit:
On the Beta forums, I had made a suggestion (which I re-suggested again, but got no "you can't do this because of X, Y and Z reason) to return the Lurker when I heard about it's departure to Never-ever-land.
The Lurker could easily replace the Roach because:
1. The Roach Warren faces the same way as the Hydralisk Den, and has the same amount of those horn things in the back (spines?). So the Roach Warren could have easily been re-named "Deep Warren" or "Lurker Warren" or something of the sort.
2. The Lurker should be a melee unit, with 1 food.
3. When you hit Lair, you can:
a. Research Burrow so the Lurker can attack while burrowed (increased range will be an upgrade).
b. Allow the "Z Warren" to upgrade to the Hydralisk Den (similar to how the Greater Spire does, since they do look similar) allowing Lurkers to morph into Hydralisks.
Versatility improvement. Any debates? 
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On August 05 2010 13:08 EssayReader wrote:The Lurkers could have been a Tier 1 unit:On the Beta forums, I had made a suggestion (which I re-suggested again, but got no "you can't do this because of X, Y and Z reason) to return the Lurker when I heard about it's departure to Never-ever-land. The Lurker could easily replace the Roach because: 1. The Roach Warren faces the same way as the Hydralisk Den, and has the same amount of those horn things in the back (spines?). So the Roach Warren could have easily been re-named "Deep Warren" or "Lurker Warren" or something of the sort. 2. The Lurker should be a melee unit, with 1 food. 3. When you hit Lair, you can: a. Research Burrow so the Lurker can attack while burrowed (increased range will be an upgrade). b. Allow the "Z Warren" to upgrade to the Hydralisk Den (similar to how the Greater Spire does, since they do look similar) allowing Lurkers to morph into Hydralisks. Versatility improvement. Any debates?
The Melee-unit 1 food overlaps much with the Zergling. In fact, you would probably have to get one or the other because there is only so much space around the enemy. The reason Roaches are a pretty good T1 unit design is they have a small range, so they can shoot over Zerglings but be almost melee.
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holy!!! thats what the swarm needs!!!! ahaha. but they shouldnt be put on tier 3. maybe 2.5 will do. the price is the same as those of immortals but gas is higher than the mineral cost. and the upgrade against armored units should be available at tier 3. maybe that would be a little balanced so that terran would have the option to use scan in early-mid to mid game
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When I open my galaxy editor it doesn't have the lurker or any campaign specific units available. How do I acquire them?
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Omegalisk:
The Melee-unit 1 food overlaps much with the Zergling. In fact, you would probably have to get one or the other because there is only so much space around the enemy. The reason Roaches are a pretty good T1 unit design is they have a small range, so they can shoot over Zerglings but be almost melee
My idea was going to reduce the Lurker's size, similar to that of the Hydralisks (if not bigger). Also, it would still be viable because the purpose of a Roach is to be that unit that can tank the shots.
The Zerg have lost a lot of 1 Food costing units, so we can't "swarm" anymore, and therefore we have the Roach, and this unit would still be viable.
The "X Warren" or Hydralisk Den could have "Muscular Augmentation" when you get the Lair, which increases the Lurker's speed to 3.3 (it's Alpha stage speed) from 2.25 (the Roach's un-upgraded speed) in order to give it two other versatile options:
a. Allow it to speed up and start melee attacking units such as Siege Tanks and Zealots (against a Protoss army).
b. Allow it to run away quickly enough to burrow and run away so it doesn't get micro-killed.
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Pretty cool video but just go test fast - people know what they're seeing if they're interested in that video 
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i miss my clutch lurkers... always seem to pop out just in time
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United States7166 Posts
the reason why blizzard couldnt get usage/sense out of lurkers with this configuration of lurkers is because it requires Hive tech. Change the lurker den to lair tech and it makes so much more sense
It'd be more like lair 2.5 as after lair finishes first you need to wait 40 seconds for hydra den (100/100 cost), then 100 seconds for the hydra den to morph into lurker den (100/50). If you wanted hydra range which you would if you wanted to make hydras, then you gotta either wait 80 seconds (150/150) for that, or wait the 100 seconds for lurker to finish before starting it.
as for lurker cost, build time is a combined 66 seconds (larvae --> hydra --> lurker egg) and a total of 150/150/3 cost.
and by the time zerg finally has lurkers, all races can reasonably have detectors by then
and possibly most importantly, it gives zergs the lair tech anti-armored unit, that has splash and a range of 6 (although it is immobile). it doesnt overlap roles with banelings as banes are mostly useful vs Light units, and banes are very weak/mobile, while lurkers are beefy/immobile. and it doesn't overlap with roaches, it makes sense to combine the two together, one as the cheap mineral sink tank unit and lurker to deal the heavy damage. Though it'd even more sense to use zerglings with them due to the expensive gas cost of lurker, and the synergy they have together
also, what's the point of discussing that video's display of lurker strength? obviously no terran's going to just walk their army slowly over a bunch of lurkers so it's pointless unless you want to compare Tank Defense to Lurker Defense maps
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Wait for HotS and the Lurker is gonna be back. After 10 years of waiting another one should be easy 
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There's no need to have 2 minutes worth of you typing shit in the chat windows at the beginning of the video. Type that somewhere else imho. 4 minute video for 60 seconds worth of interesting occurrences. I wish the Lurker would come back too, but I can't see how they could possibly balance it :X
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Lurkers would be scary guarding the top of ramps, since you can't attack up there if you can't see it. That would mean scan or quick starport.
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Unleash 7 ultralisks on that bioball and I bet there won't be much left either. Ultras are still more powerful than anyone gives them credit for.
I really don't see the need for the addition of the lurker. If one unit were to be added to Zerg, I would pick the scourge, not the lurker.
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Just some advice if you plan on making more, the tests are fine, but you can literally make the video around 30 sec to 1 minute long with a description of the video in text elsewhere, or just typing it faster. It really adds a lot of unnecessary time that no one really needs to see, and turns ppl off (at lesat me) from watching these kinds of things.
Meant to be constructive criticism, keep up the work with testing things like this though.
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this would add a lot more dynamic to tvz, but what about tvp, since protoss's only mobile cloak is the observer. this would ruin any non-robo first builds. or would it come out late enough? i don't play toss so i don't know timings.
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On August 05 2010 04:29 Omegalisk wrote:
there is a nasty bug where you can just run ahead of the Lurker's attack (where the Lurker attacks and it misses).
So we're calling this a bug now?
good lord...
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type slower and explain everything on screen, not like i have perception of my own or anything
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On August 05 2010 05:08 Floophead_III wrote:
Uh, bio is already not viable because of banelings. That's why lurkers were deemed "overlapping." The one thing lurkers did was force detection, but burrowed roaches and banelings can do the same thing (and infestors too with the new IT!)
Marauders infront, Bio is viable again! Hard huh?
The biggest problem is Infestors, but then again why should tier 1 win against everything?
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Who would really want the gimmicky and fragile baneling or the a-move and boring roach over the LURKER? Bring that shit back! Of course they won't do it now though, we'll just have to wait until heart of the swarm.
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Well in alpha there was a tier 3 upgrade for lurkers that gave them range 9.
Get rid of that upgrade, and put lurkers in the game, (preferably morphed from roaches, not hydras.... cause they just look the same already)
gogo?
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EPT
